15:39:07 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dnt
15:39:07 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/10/17-dnt-irc
15:39:15 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #dnt
15:39:20 <aleecia> Zakim, this will be dnt
15:39:20 <Zakim> ok, aleecia; I see T&S_Track(dnt)12:00PM scheduled to start in 21 minutes
15:39:27 <aleecia> chair: aleecia
15:39:38 <aleecia> regrets+ jmayer
15:39:45 <aleecia> rrsagent, make logs public
15:39:51 <aleecia> agenda?
15:40:27 <aleecia> agenda+ Selection of scribe
15:40:38 <aleecia> agenda+ Review of overdue action items:  http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/actions/overdue?sort=owner
15:41:02 <aleecia> agenda+ Quick check that callers are identified
15:41:11 <aleecia> agenda+ Raised issues that need actions to proceed
15:41:42 <aleecia> agenda+ Discussion of potential new pending review action items
15:41:57 <aleecia> agenda+ Announce next meeting & adjourn
15:42:47 <Walter> hi aleecia
15:42:54 <aleecia> good morning, Walter!
15:46:38 <Walter> almost evening here, but a good morning to you too
15:47:33 <dwainberg> dwainberg has joined #dnt
15:48:05 <rigo> rigo has joined #dnt
15:48:19 <rigo> zakim, code?
15:48:19 <Zakim> the conference code is 87225 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), rigo
15:49:19 <robsherman> robsherman has joined #dnt
15:51:11 <Zakim> T&S_Track(dnt)12:00PM has now started
15:51:19 <Zakim> + +1.408.674.aaaa
15:51:21 <Zakim> + +1.202.370.aabb
15:51:27 <robsherman> zakim, aabb is robsherman
15:51:27 <Zakim> +robsherman; got it
15:51:32 <aleecia> zakim, aaaa is aleecia
15:51:32 <Zakim> +aleecia; got it
15:52:03 <Zakim> +Rigo
15:52:04 <aleecia> good evening, too. We could do the Truman show bit
15:52:34 <rigo> wrong window :)
15:52:47 <aleecia> ?
15:52:50 <BrendanIAB> BrendanIAB has joined #dnt
15:52:56 <Zakim> + +1.425.310.aacc
15:53:13 <aleecia> (I'd been addressing Walter pointing out I'd wished him a good morning when it is evening for him)
15:53:21 <rvaneijk> rvaneijk has joined #dnt
15:53:25 <rigo> zakim, mute me
15:53:25 <Zakim> Rigo should now be muted
15:53:40 <aleecia> right -- context was just before you joined IRC
15:53:55 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:54:00 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
15:54:11 <Walter> Zakim: code?
15:54:17 <BrendanIAB> Zakim, IPcaller.a is probably BrendanIAB
15:54:17 <Zakim> +BrendanIAB?; got it
15:54:45 <BrendanIAB> Don't worry Aleecia, I keep track of IRC when I call in!
15:54:55 <Zakim> + +31.65.141.aadd
15:54:55 <Walter> +Walter?
15:55:09 <rvaneijk> Zakim, aadd is me
15:55:09 <Zakim> +rvaneijk; got it
15:55:13 <aleecia> (1) please mute
15:55:17 <Walter> Zakim: +31.65.141.aadd is probably Walter
15:55:25 <aleecia> (2) if you're not associated with your number, please do so
15:55:37 <rigo> Walter, do you call in via sip or skype?
15:55:39 <rvaneijk> Walter, +31 is me
15:55:41 <Walter> Skype
15:55:43 <Walter> rvaneijk: sorry
15:55:47 <aleecia> zakim, who is on the call?
15:55:47 <Zakim> On the phone I see aleecia, robsherman, Rigo (muted), +1.425.310.aacc, [IPcaller], BrendanIAB?, rvaneijk
15:56:00 <rigo> zakim, IPcaller is Walter
15:56:01 <Zakim> +Walter; got it
15:56:01 <aleecia> presumably IPcaller is Walter, then?
15:56:06 <rigo> yep :)
15:56:10 <aleecia> thanks, Rigo
15:56:15 <Walter> I guess, so
15:57:00 <Zakim> + +aaee
15:57:02 <aleecia> regrets+ kimon
15:57:11 <pedermagee> pedermagee has joined #dnt
15:57:31 <aleecia> Please mute :-)
15:57:52 <npdoty> npdoty has joined #dnt
15:57:54 <Zakim> + +1.206.658.aaff
15:58:14 <npdoty> rrsagent, make logs public
15:58:16 <aleecia> Good morning, Nick. Zakim's in goldfish mode
15:58:21 <aleecia> We're all set up
15:58:21 <npdoty> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:58:21 <Zakim> On the phone I see aleecia, robsherman, Rigo (muted), +1.425.310.aacc, Walter, BrendanIAB?, rvaneijk, +aaee, +1.206.658.aaff
15:58:51 <jchester2> jchester2 has joined #dnt
15:59:00 <jeffwilson> jeffwilson has joined #dnt
15:59:13 <Zakim> + +1.646.801.aagg
15:59:16 <aleecia> zakim, aaff is AmyC
15:59:16 <Zakim> +AmyC; got it
15:59:22 <dwainberg> zakim, aagg is dwainberg
15:59:22 <Zakim> +dwainberg; got it
15:59:29 <Zakim> + +1.703.265.aahh
15:59:33 <aleecia> thanks, david!
15:59:35 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
15:59:40 <adrianba> zakim, [Microsoft] is me
15:59:40 <Zakim> +adrianba; got it
15:59:43 <adrianba> zakim, mute me
15:59:43 <Zakim> adrianba should now be muted
16:00:08 <aleecia> zakim, who is making noise?
16:00:18 <jeffwilson> zakim, aahh is jeffwilson
16:00:18 <Zakim> +jeffwilson; got it
16:00:19 <Zakim> aleecia, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 12 (34%), +aaee (20%)
16:00:20 <Zakim> + +1.510.859.aaii
16:00:31 <npdoty> Zakim, aaii is npdoty
16:00:31 <Zakim> +npdoty; got it
16:00:35 <ninjamarnau> ninjamarnau has joined #dnt
16:00:44 <Zakim> + +1.813.358.aajj
16:00:55 <sidstamm> sidstamm has joined #dnt
16:00:58 <vinay> vinay has joined #dnt
16:01:00 <Zakim> + +49.431.98.aakk
16:01:01 <Zakim> +jchester2
16:01:05 <damiano> damiano has joined #dnt
16:01:09 <Zakim> +hwest
16:01:10 <jchester2> zakin, mute me
16:01:11 <vincent> vincent has joined #dnt
16:01:13 <hefferjr> hefferjr has joined #dnt
16:01:18 <ninjamarnau> zakim, aakk is ninjamarnau
16:01:18 <Zakim> +ninjamarnau; got it
16:01:19 <hwest> hwest has joined #dnt
16:01:30 <Zakim> + +1.415.728.aall
16:01:31 <fielding> fielding has joined #dnt
16:01:33 <npdoty> Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:01:33 <Zakim> On the phone I see aleecia, robsherman, Rigo (muted), +1.425.310.aacc, Walter, BrendanIAB?, rvaneijk, +aaee, AmyC, dwainberg, jeffwilson, adrianba (muted), npdoty, +1.813.358.aajj,
16:01:33 <aleecia> zakim, who is making noise?
16:01:36 <Zakim> ... ninjamarnau, jchester2, hwest, +1.415.728.aall
16:01:38 <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
16:01:39 <sidstamm> Zakim, Mozilla has sidstamm
16:01:39 <Zakim> +sidstamm; got it
16:01:42 <vinay> zakim, aall is vinay
16:01:43 <Zakim> +vinay; got it
16:01:43 <Zakim> aleecia, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 18 (46%), +1.813.358.aajj (4%), jchester2 (13%)
16:01:49 <WileyS> WileyS has joined #dnt
16:01:54 <Zakim> +Cyril_Concolato
16:01:55 <npdoty> Zakim, mute jchester2
16:01:55 <BerinSzoka> BerinSzoka has joined #DNT
16:01:56 <Zakim> jchester2 should now be muted
16:02:05 <Zakim> + +1.813.366.aamm
16:02:07 <damiano> npdoty, not sure.
16:02:10 <Chapell> Chapell has joined #DNT
16:02:12 <tl> tl has joined #dnt
16:02:13 <Zakim> + +1.202.642.aann
16:02:15 <Zakim> + +1.714.852.aaoo
16:02:15 <mikeo> mikeo has joined #dnt
16:02:16 <damiano> I'm calling from a google
16:02:20 <vincent> zakim, Cyril_Concolato is vincent
16:02:20 <Zakim> +vincent; got it
16:02:23 <hefferjr> zakim, aamm is hefferjr
16:02:23 <Zakim> +hefferjr; got it
16:02:29 <fielding> zakim, aaoo is fielding
16:02:29 <Zakim> +fielding; got it
16:02:56 <npdoty> Zakim, drop aaee
16:02:56 <Zakim> +aaee is being disconnected
16:02:57 <Zakim> - +aaee
16:03:00 <Zakim> + +1.408.349.aapp
16:03:01 <aleecia> zakim, agenda?
16:03:01 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
16:03:02 <Zakim> 1. Selection of scribe [from aleecia]
16:03:02 <Zakim> 2. Review of overdue action items:  http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/actions/overdue?sort=owner [from aleecia]
16:03:02 <Zakim> 3. Quick check that callers are identified [from aleecia]
16:03:03 <Zakim> 4. Raised issues that need actions to proceed [from aleecia]
16:03:03 <Zakim> 5. Discussion of potential new pending review action items [from aleecia]
16:03:03 <Zakim> 6. Announce next meeting & adjourn [from aleecia]
16:03:14 <tl> regrets+ me
16:03:14 <WileyS> Zakim, aapp is WileyS
16:03:14 <Zakim> +WileyS; got it
16:03:44 <Zakim> + +1.917.318.aaqq
16:03:51 <Zakim> + +aarr
16:03:57 <cblouch> cblouch has joined #dnt
16:04:09 <ChrisPedigoOPA> ChrisPedigoOPA has joined #dnt
16:04:10 <Zakim> + +1.301.351.aass
16:04:19 <rigo> zakim, who is here?
16:04:20 <Zakim> On the phone I see aleecia, robsherman, Rigo (muted), +1.425.310.aacc, Walter, BrendanIAB?, rvaneijk, AmyC, dwainberg, jeffwilson, adrianba (muted), npdoty, +1.813.358.aajj,
16:04:22 <Zakim> ... ninjamarnau, jchester2 (muted), hwest, vinay, [Mozilla], vincent, hefferjr, +1.202.642.aann, fielding, WileyS, +1.917.318.aaqq, +aarr, +1.301.351.aass
16:04:22 <Zakim> [Mozilla] has sidstamm
16:04:22 <Zakim> On IRC I see ChrisPedigoOPA, cblouch, mikeo, tl, Chapell, BerinSzoka, WileyS, fielding, hwest, hefferjr, vincent, damiano, vinay, sidstamm, ninjamarnau, jeffwilson, jchester2,
16:04:22 <Zakim> ... npdoty, pedermagee, rvaneijk, BrendanIAB, robsherman, rigo, dwainberg
16:04:23 <aleecia> alan, can you scribe?
16:04:24 <jchester2> Count me in next week, as I have to leave meeting mid-way.
16:04:37 <suegl> suegl has joined #dnt
16:04:38 <Chapell> sorry - not in a great phone place
16:04:38 <Zakim> +??P70
16:04:42 <aleecia> noted, thanks
16:04:47 <Walter> aleecia: I'd love to, but my sound quality is rather poor
16:04:54 <Walter> and so is my internet connection
16:05:15 <Zakim> + +1.202.507.aatt
16:05:24 <Zakim> + +1.703.265.aauu
16:05:27 <fielding> backup
16:05:30 <Zakim> + +1.215.286.aavv
16:05:35 <susanisrael> susanisrael has joined #dnt
16:05:43 <Zakim> + +1.425.269.aaww
16:06:01 <npdoty> scribenick: susanisrael
16:06:02 <ChrisPedigoOPA> Zakim, aatt is ChrisPedigoOPA
16:06:02 <Zakim> +ChrisPedigoOPA; got it
16:06:06 <Zakim> +Keith
16:06:11 <suegl> zakim, aaww is suegl
16:06:11 <Zakim> +suegl; got it
16:06:18 <npdoty> jeffwilson will help on scribing
16:06:18 <Chapell> zakim aaqq is chapell
16:06:19 <Keith> Keith has joined #dnt
16:06:19 <susanisrael> susan israel joined from 215.... and is scribing
16:06:31 <npdoty> Zakim, aavv is susanisrael
16:06:31 <Zakim> +susanisrael; got it
16:06:32 <cblouch> zakim, aauu is cblouch
16:06:33 <Zakim> +cblouch; got it
16:06:39 <Brooks> Brooks has joined #dnt
16:06:39 <fielding> http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/actions/overdue?sort=owner
16:06:40 <susanisrael> aleecia: most of agenda today is re: action items, not a lot of prep needed
16:06:56 <susanisrael> aleecia: overdue items--5 have dropped off, not sure which
16:07:00 <Chapell> zakim, aaqq is Chapell
16:07:00 <Zakim> +Chapell; got it
16:07:13 <npdoty> action-321?
16:07:13 <trackbot> ACTION-321 -- Thomas Lowenthal to set up a call about discussing singer's list of questions about what information is needed in response headers and status resource -- due 2012-10-22 -- OPEN
16:07:13 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/actions/321
16:07:32 <Zakim> + +1.678.580.aaxx
16:07:33 <susanisrael> first action 321: there was a phone call last week to address david's questions.  Tl not on call but will ask for link to summary of last week's call
16:07:47 <susanisrael> aleecia: 3 actions we have started but not finished
16:07:47 <npdoty> we did have that call, a nice quick chat
16:07:49 <aleecia> Action-255
16:07:49 <dtauerbach> dtauerbach has joined #dnt
16:07:56 <npdoty> action-255?
16:07:56 <trackbot> ACTION-255 -- Alan Chapell to work on financial reporting text (with nick, ian) as alternative to legal requirements -- due 2012-09-19 -- OPEN
16:07:56 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/actions/255
16:07:57 <Brooks> 678 580 aaxx is Brooks
16:08:05 <kj> kj has joined #dnt
16:08:11 <npdoty> Zakim, aaxx is Brooks
16:08:11 <Zakim> +Brooks; got it
16:08:19 <susanisrael> aleecia: alan was going to revise text on financial reporting.  right? or does original text stand?
16:08:20 <Chapell> Nick has taken the lead - and suggested some text that I think is promising
16:08:28 <npdoty> I followed up with some suggestions for Alan, but haven't sent to the full list
16:08:40 <susanisrael> alan says on irc that nick has tacken lead
16:08:51 <AnnaLong> AnnaLong has joined #dnt
16:08:51 <susanisrael> aleecia: one more week?
16:08:55 <Chapell> Nick - lets send around
16:09:16 <susanisrael> nick? should i send around language to full list?  alan - yes, aleecia: alan is still owner
16:09:16 <Chapell> sounds good
16:09:27 <npdoty> Chapell, send around to the full list now? I can do that just after this call then
16:09:31 <jeffwilson> aleecia: alan remains owner of 255, nick will assist
16:09:40 <Zakim> +AnnaLong
16:09:48 <npdoty> action-255 due 10-18
16:09:48 <trackbot> ACTION-255 Work on financial reporting text (with nick, ian) as alternative to legal requirements due date now 10-18
16:09:48 <susanisrael> aleecia: plus 1 week for action 255-nick update actions as we go? nick yes
16:09:53 <aleecia> Action-246
16:10:00 <fielding> action-246?
16:10:00 <trackbot> ACTION-246 -- David Wainberg to draft proposal regarding making a public compliance commitment (with Alan, Ian) -- due 2012-10-10 -- PENDINGREVIEW
16:10:00 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/actions/246
16:10:00 <npdoty> action-246?
16:10:01 <trackbot> ACTION-246 -- David Wainberg to draft proposal regarding making a public compliance commitment (with Alan, Ian) -- due 2012-10-10 -- PENDINGREVIEW
16:10:01 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/actions/246
16:10:19 <susanisrael> aleecia: action 246 the most contentious thing on call-originally was david wainberg's re public commitment re: dnt....
16:10:37 <susanisrael> ....has turned into discussion of how to have multiple flavors of dnt.
16:10:47 <npdoty> Zakim, who is making noise?
16:10:50 <BrendanIAB> zakim, who is making noise?
16:10:57 <susanisrael> ....problem is the content, not that topic has changed
16:10:58 <Zakim> npdoty, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: aleecia (59%), dwainberg (39%)
16:11:09 <Zakim> BrendanIAB, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 34 (9%), aleecia (46%), dwainberg (79%), +1.813.358.aajj (4%), +aarr (13%)
16:11:09 <Chapell> I can't hear Aleecia
16:11:12 <WileyS> Aleecia - I don't believe its fair to call it "multiple flavors of DNT" and injects bias into your point of view.  Could we please choose a more neutral phrasing to be fair to the group.
16:11:12 <jeffwilson> aleecia: 246 is problematic because it contemplates UI and general purpose tool
16:11:14 <Chris_IAB> Chris_IAB has joined #dnt
16:11:16 <Zakim> +[FTC]
16:11:35 <Chris_IAB> Only able to join IRC today as I'm in flight
16:11:43 <susanisrael> david wainberg:  would disagree that this has departed from original purpose, to help companies make commitments about compliance, and don't think it's a general purpose tool
16:11:46 <WileyS> +1 to David
16:11:54 <Chapell> +1 to David
16:11:59 <susanisrael> [aleecia had said we  can't create general purpose tool]
16:12:00 <jeffwilson> dwainberg: disagree with aleecia that 246 creates an issue via general purpose tool
16:12:21 <rigo> WileyS, I think this is not possible with this protocol and I said that on the mailing list
16:12:29 <WileyS> This isn't general purpose.  Discussion of data retention and unlinkability are clearly "general purpose"
16:12:35 <susanisrael> aleecia: idea was to say this is what you must do to comply w dnt, but this is moving into general purpose of saying this is what we are doing
16:12:41 <Chapell> Aleecia - can you explain how this violates the charter
16:12:41 <cOlsen> cOlsen has joined #dnt
16:12:43 <Chapell> i'm not following
16:12:47 <WileyS> Rigo, understood but I disagree with your point of view
16:13:03 <WileyS> +q
16:13:12 <rigo> zakim, unmute me
16:13:12 <Zakim> Rigo should no longer be muted
16:13:12 <susanisrael> aleecia: have walked up to that line before.....but here we are saying we don't know what outcomes will be...
16:13:13 <WileyS> Who is the heavy breather on the call?
16:13:17 <Walter> Zakim: mute Walter
16:13:24 <tlr> zakim, mute walter
16:13:24 <Zakim> Walter should now be muted
16:13:24 <aleecia> q?
16:13:32 <aleecia> ack WileyS
16:13:34 <Chapell> q+
16:13:41 <npdoty> q+
16:14:08 <susanisrael> shane: disagree that this is against charter of working group.,  what is process to make that determination? this is not general purpose but related to small number of compliance standards
16:14:17 <johnsimpson> johnsimpson has joined #dnt
16:14:20 <dtauerbach> dtauerbach has joined #dnt
16:14:24 <rigo> q+
16:14:27 <Chapell> q-
16:14:32 <aleecia> ack rigo
16:14:37 <dtauerbach> q?
16:14:39 <Chapell> +1 to Shane
16:14:40 <rigo> ack
16:14:40 <susanisrael> shane.,....these other standards are well known and have long history.  50% of working group disagrees with your decision that this violates charger
16:14:44 <Chris_IAB> Charter also says that we wont create a complex solution; based on that, its seems we are way out of charter in general
16:14:52 <WileyS> Rigo - please put your Legal cap on for this discussion
16:15:06 <npdoty> s/shane.,/shane: /
16:15:25 <Zakim> + +1.310.392.aayy
16:15:26 <fielding> The charter says "The Working Group will not design mechanisms for the expression of complex or general-purpose policy statements."
16:15:28 <susanisrael> rigo: i hate charter discussions and discussions of charter violations.  these will be assessed when we move from last call to candidate recommendation
16:15:28 <dwainberg> q+
16:15:29 <WileyS> c/charger/charter
16:15:52 <Chapell> q+
16:15:56 <WileyS> +q
16:15:59 <johnsimpson> zakim, 310.392.aayy is me
16:15:59 <Zakim> sorry, johnsimpson, I do not recognize a party named '310.392.aayy'
16:16:02 <npdoty> s/charger/charter/
16:16:05 <susanisrael> rigo: at end of day if we produce document that does not comply with charter then we will be put back into working draft. pls refrain from charter discussions.
16:16:07 <npdoty> Zakim, aayy is johnsimpson
16:16:07 <Zakim> +johnsimpson; got it
16:16:12 <Chris_IAB> Good point Roy-- as I pointed out in Amsterdam, the current approach is nothing but complex (on all sides)
16:16:36 <johnsimpson> zakim, +1.310.392.aayy is me
16:16:36 <Zakim> sorry, johnsimpson, I do not recognize a party named '+1.310.392.aayy'
16:16:52 <johnsimpson> zakim, aayy is me
16:16:52 <Zakim> sorry, johnsimpson, I do not recognize a party named 'aayy'
16:16:59 <susanisrael> rigo: made point that we have discussed before and have not made progress so pls respect that. can argue that this is about meaning of w3c but these arguments are kind of virtual
16:17:00 <Chapell> zakim, aayy is johnsimpson
16:17:00 <Zakim> sorry, Chapell, I do not recognize a party named 'aayy'
16:17:01 <BrendanIAB> Zakim, aayy is johnsimpson
16:17:02 <Zakim> sorry, BrendanIAB, I do not recognize a party named 'aayy'
16:17:11 <WileyS> Rigo - the question is how do we arrive at a decision?  Aleecia is blocking the discussion as it being out of the charter - we want the discussion to continue as you've pointed out.
16:17:23 <BrendanIAB> weird
16:17:27 <johnsimpson> zakim, aayy is johnsimpson
16:17:27 <eberkower> eberkower has joined #dnt
16:17:27 <Zakim> sorry, johnsimpson, I do not recognize a party named 'aayy'
16:17:36 <JC> JC has joined #DNT
16:17:39 <Zakim> -Walter
16:17:56 <Chapell> johnsimpson, sorry john tried to help  (:
16:18:03 <susanisrael> aleecia: i think the way this happens is that if we have consensus to move forward with david wainbergs proposal then we put into spec and we may be told when doc is reviewed that we can't move forward
16:18:10 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:18:15 <Chris_IAB> "aayyy" is Johnsimpson with DNT enabled? ;)
16:18:19 <Zakim> + +1.408.536.aazz
16:18:35 <Zakim> + +1.646.202.bbaa
16:18:41 <Chapell> Aleecia, I'm not sure I understand the rationale - can you please explain again?
16:18:43 <susanisrael> aleecia: or we could move forward with different proposals for how to comply with dnt, then file formal objection and that gets evaluated at last call.  rigo, correct?
16:18:52 <eberkower> bbaa = eberkower
16:18:53 <Chapell> ... some of the problem was the background noise
16:18:55 <WileyS> Aleecia - so you're suggesting we move to a poll (path of least objection)?
16:18:55 <johnsimpson> Thanks, Nick
16:18:59 <npdoty> Zakim, bbaa is eberkower
16:18:59 <Zakim> + +385221bbbb
16:18:59 <Zakim> +eberkower; got it
16:19:06 <eberkower> thanks
16:19:06 <fielding> My opinion is that the charter is specifically referring to something like P3P. An expression of which compliance standards are being applied (a simple array of token strings) is not a complex expression and not forbidden by charter.  That doesn't mean it is a good idea.
16:19:19 <susanisrael> rigo: we hvae discussion and if no sustained opposition then we move forward.  I htink there is sustained opposition but that's up to chairs
16:19:27 <WileyS> Okay
16:19:29 <WileyS> -q
16:19:32 <justin_> justin_ has joined #dnt
16:19:43 <BrendanIAB> BrendanIAB has left #dnt
16:19:48 <WileyS> Works for me - thank you.
16:20:04 <susanisrael> aleecia: am suggesting we do that so you can bring up any of your concerns to director.  rather than take hard line that this is irrelevant
16:20:04 <ksmith> ksmith has joined #DNT
16:20:11 <BrendanIAB> BrendanIAB has joined #dnt
16:20:20 <meme> meme has joined #dnt
16:20:23 <aleecia> q?
16:20:25 <WileyS> Aleecia - that was the important element to me - that the conversation be able to happen and not be blocked up front due to an assessment of "out of charter"
16:20:33 <susanisrael> aleecia: unfortunately i think we spend a lot of time on this, but i think that's the way we do it.
16:20:52 <Zakim> +[CDT]
16:21:12 <susanisrael> npdoty: no need for deep discussion.  one suggestion i have heard is that this issue may be more or less important depending on results of compliance document so maybe we come back to it.
16:21:30 <susanisrael> aleecia: interesting, how many agree?
16:21:44 <Chris_IAB> agree with?
16:22:03 <susanisrael> aleecia: how many think they support dwainberg proposal and whether they do may depend on outcome of compliance document
16:22:08 <Chapell> I agree with David W re: flag
16:22:19 <npdoty> are there people who agree that they generally support dwainberg's proposal, but think we might differ depending on the outcome of the Compliance spec?
16:22:28 <Brooks> Agree with David
16:22:30 <WileyS> If outcome equals DAA Code of Conduct then I'd change my mind - otherwise we should keep this discussion alive
16:22:34 <npdoty> (just a suggestion)
16:22:34 <hwest> Two part question makes it harder. Good proposal, unclear on the second half.
16:22:36 <Walter> Zakim: code?
16:22:39 <Chris_IAB> I agree with dwainberg proposal
16:22:41 <npdoty> Zakim, code?
16:22:41 <Zakim> the conference code is 87225 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), npdoty
16:22:45 <fielding> can I think it's not a good idea but may be necessary?
16:22:46 <susanisrael> so do you support flag describing your type of compliance, and your mind might change depending on compliance doc outcome
16:22:57 <aleecia> ack dwainberg
16:22:57 <npdoty> q-
16:22:58 <rigo> q?
16:23:12 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:23:15 <aleecia> ack Chapell
16:23:19 <susanisrael> dwainberg: if result is that this stays on table and we keep moving on i am ok with that
16:23:44 <susanisrael> chappell: not sure i understood your point/concern
16:23:56 <npdoty> Zakim, who is making noise?
16:24:06 <Zakim> npdoty, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: aleecia (64%), AmyC (9%), Chapell (4%), [IPcaller] (9%)
16:24:07 <susanisrael> aleecia: my concern is that we would be building a general purpose tool and that's not within scope of charter
16:24:21 <Chris_IAB> npdoty, I'm IRC only today (in flight)
16:24:55 <susanisrael> aleecia: we don't know what types of compliance are out there, don't have bounded number of things to consider. dw tried to limit to existing codes/national compliance but we don't know where that ends
16:25:01 <Chris_IAB> can someone please define "general purpose tool"?
16:25:08 <rigo> P3P
16:25:10 <WileyS> We can set a high bar to make sure only significant standards like DAA become a valid option
16:25:28 <BerinSzoka> - did someone say SNL skit?  Might be time for Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer to join the conversation to express his concerns about the ongoing need to define the many key undefined terms on which this process rests. See http://goo.gl/b1l7I
16:25:41 <susanisrael> aleecia: we might have managed different types of compliance among a small set of options, but with large sets we can't
16:25:56 <dwainberg> q+
16:25:59 <susanisrael> chappell: not sure i agree but appreciate explanation and understand.
16:26:03 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
16:26:05 <aleecia> ack dwainberg
16:26:07 <fielding> The charter does not mention tools -- just policy statements.
16:26:20 <rigo> q+
16:26:25 <susanisrael> dwainberg: i wonder if we should open an issue to constrain set of possible statements that a server might make
16:26:43 <Zakim> - +1.813.358.aajj
16:26:52 <susanisrael> aleecia: way to handle that would be revise text you have, keep current action items open
16:26:59 <Walter> Zakim: ipcaller is walter
16:27:01 <susanisrael> dwainberg: need suggestions from others for that
16:27:28 <Zakim> -[Mozilla]
16:27:29 <WileyS> How about requiring at least 1000 companies to have signed up for a specific code of conduct before it can be considered?
16:27:31 <susanisrael> aleecia: still think it fits with action that is there, you can start off discussion about it on mailing list in more focused way. ......
16:27:33 <Chris_IAB> btw, BerinSzoka, I am not a general purpose tool-- I'm a very specific kind of tool :)
16:27:35 <dtauerbach> dtauerbach has joined #dnt
16:27:41 <susanisrael> ...encourage you to have text you want
16:28:05 <jeffwilson> dwainberg: no concerns with my text - need input from objectors
16:28:21 <susanisrael> dwainberg: i don't share the concern, i think the size of set of options is self correcting, but those who do have that concern should offer suggestions
16:28:35 <rigo> q-
16:28:35 <susanisrael> aleecia: not seeing anyone else jumping in with separate concerns
16:28:45 <johnsimpson> Has David W. Proposed text? If so, where is it?
16:29:03 <aleecia> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tracking/2012Oct/0154.html)
16:29:07 <susanisrael> aleecia: we have a couple different options for public commitment  text already...
16:29:25 <aleecia> q?
16:29:26 <npdoty> action: aleecia to compile public compliance commitment options for potential Call
16:29:26 <trackbot> Created ACTION-324 - Compile public compliance commitment options for potential Call [on Aleecia McDonald - due 2012-10-24].
16:29:31 <susanisrael> aleecia: action on me to pull all these texts together so we can review side by side
16:29:43 <Zakim> - +1.408.536.aazz
16:29:43 <aleecia> Action-301, intermediaries and HTTP headers
16:29:44 <npdoty> action-301?
16:29:44 <trackbot> ACTION-301 -- Rob van Eijk to eijk to draft explanation on intermediaries and inserted headers -- due 2012-10-11 -- OPEN
16:29:44 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/actions/301
16:29:53 <susanisrael> aleecia: next action is 301--intermediaries and http headers
16:30:03 <aleecia> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tracking/2012Oct/0105.html
16:30:13 <Zakim> +??P3
16:30:23 <Walter> Zakim: p3 is Walter
16:30:23 <susanisrael> rob suggested approach and 2 other paths but did not do standard text and there was no feedback
16:30:42 <npdoty> Zakim, ??P3 is Walter
16:30:42 <Zakim> +Walter; got it
16:30:56 <susanisrael> .....question is whether rob you can take what yo uhave and put it into standards language? rob: yes, can do in 1 week
16:31:16 <npdoty> action-301: please convert to standards language and a formal proposal
16:31:16 <trackbot> ACTION-301 Eijk to draft explanation on intermediaries and inserted headers notes added
16:31:26 <npdoty> action-301 due 10-23
16:31:26 <trackbot> ACTION-301 Eijk to draft explanation on intermediaries and inserted headers due date now 10-23
16:31:33 <Walter> rvaneijk: If necessary I may be able to give a hand on that one
16:31:34 <susanisrael> aleecia: thank you rob, shift now over to going through whole lot of actions with no text associated with them..........
16:31:45 <jeffwilson> aleecia: going over actions that have no associated text, what can we close?
16:31:50 <rigo> action-264?
16:31:50 <trackbot> ACTION-264 -- Amy Colando to draft updated 'share' definition to avoid concerns (with rigo and chris-p) -- due 2012-10-10 -- OPEN
16:31:50 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/actions/264
16:31:50 <aleecia> Action-264, share definition
16:31:59 <susanisrael> ........amy: 264-definition of share
16:32:09 <susanisrael> amy: yes we are working with this offline
16:32:10 <Zakim> -??P70
16:32:12 <aleecia> (hard to understand some of this)
16:32:14 <rigo> Amy: still working on it, retain and ?? still under discussion
16:32:16 <npdoty> working quite a bit off-list, close to sharing with the public mailing list
16:32:37 <susanisrael> amy: will submit to list in next week, other defs in next 2 weeks, or can open up other action item for other words
16:32:40 <npdoty> also expanding to work on the other definitions (collect and use?)
16:32:58 <susanisrael> aleecia: reads back what she heard to confirm
16:33:21 <susanisrael> aleecia: go ahead and do all under same action for now and we can look at it and split off as needed.
16:33:30 <aleecia> Action-275, reword to avoid "tracking," Nick Doty
16:33:31 <aleecia> 		Action-260, update debugging text, Nick Doty
16:33:31 <rigo> action-275?
16:33:31 <trackbot> ACTION-275 -- Nick Doty to update middle way proposals to avoid relying on "tracking" -- due 2012-10-10 -- PENDINGREVIEW
16:33:31 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/actions/275
16:33:32 <aleecia> 		Action-318, JS window / navigator update, Nick Doty
16:33:32 <aleecia> 		Action-319, non-norm 3rd party exceptions without JS, Nick Doty
16:33:39 <Zakim> -ChrisPedigoOPA
16:33:51 <rigo> action-260?
16:33:51 <trackbot> ACTION-260 -- Nick Doty to update debugging text (add normative 'short term', 'diagnostic', expand on or replace "graduated response") -- due 2012-10-03 -- PENDINGREVIEW
16:33:51 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/actions/260
16:34:04 <susanisrael> aleecia: 4 for nick: 275-rewording proposal to avoid tracking[?],has been updated...
16:34:05 <rigo> action-318?
16:34:05 <trackbot> ACTION-318 -- Nick Doty to update draft with JS window/navigator change (coordinate with dsinger/adrianba text) -- due 2012-10-12 -- OPEN
16:34:05 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/actions/318
16:34:11 <susanisrael> 260......?
16:34:23 <rigo> Action-319?
16:34:23 <trackbot> ACTION-319 -- Nick Doty to draft non-normative text on how to accomplish non-JS third parties that want to request for exceptions (with lou) -- due 2012-10-12 -- OPEN
16:34:23 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/actions/319
16:34:34 <susanisrael> javascript window navigator? nick: have not done yet, will get with adrian
16:34:35 <jeffwilson> missed 260 status as well, sorry
16:34:53 <aleecia> action-260 is pending review
16:34:58 <rigo> ND: have written text and sent to Lou
16:35:00 <susanisrael> 319: non normative text re javascript, nick: waiting for feedback from lou
16:35:17 <npdoty> action-318 due 10-20
16:35:17 <trackbot> ACTION-318 Update draft with JS window/navigator change (coordinate with dsinger/adrianba text) due date now 10-20
16:35:21 <aleecia> Action-284, no altering DNT signal set from UA, Ian Fette
16:35:21 <rigo> action-284?
16:35:21 <trackbot> ACTION-284 -- Ian Fette to propose barring other software from altering a DNT signal if the browser already set it -- due 2012-10-10 -- OPEN
16:35:21 <aleecia> 		Action-279, graduated response, Ian Fette
16:35:21 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/actions/284
16:35:23 <aleecia> 		Action-304, URL re-direction, Ian Fette
16:35:24 <aleecia> 		Action-303, defn "visit", Ian Fette
16:35:25 <aleecia> 		Action-313, normative text around Adrian's exception proposal, Ian Fette
16:35:26 <aleecia> 		Action-266, retention grace period, Ian Fette
16:35:28 <dtauerbach> dtauerbach has joined #dnt
16:35:33 <susanisrael> aleecia: thank you nick. all those remain 2 pending review, 2 with later due date, next ian--is he on call?
16:35:46 <npdoty> action-319: followed up with Lou, waiting on his feedback before sharing widely
16:35:46 <trackbot> ACTION-319 Draft non-normative text on how to accomplish non-JS third parties that want to request for exceptions (with lou) notes added
16:35:50 <aleecia> Action-131, use case for mixed first- and third-party interactions, Roy Fielding
16:35:53 <npdoty> action-319 due 10-20
16:35:53 <trackbot> ACTION-319 Draft non-normative text on how to accomplish non-JS third parties that want to request for exceptions (with lou) due date now 10-20
16:35:58 <jeffwilson> aleecia: i need to contact ian, he's not on the call
16:36:05 <rigo> Action-131?
16:36:05 <trackbot> ACTION-131 -- Roy Fielding to sketch use case for user agent requests on tracking status resource -- due 2012-10-24 -- OPEN
16:36:05 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/actions/131
16:36:06 <npdoty> aleecia will follow up with Ian who has a lot of action items we need to follow up on
16:36:13 <susanisrael> aleecia: note that i need to contact ian and check in on whether his action items are still live.  Roy action 131, use cases for [first/third?] party interactions
16:36:27 <susanisrael> roy: updated date, mixing with tom's action,
16:36:29 <aleecia> Action-258, Propose 'should' for same-party and why, Tom Lowenthal /* This action could use a better name */
16:36:45 <vinay> vinay has joined #dnt
16:36:50 <aleecia> Action-263, updated minimization text, Ninja Marnau
16:36:59 <npdoty> aleecia will follow up with Tom regarding a couple action items
16:37:01 <rigo> action-263?
16:37:01 <trackbot> ACTION-263 -- Ninja Marnau to provide updated text regarding minimization (with nick) -- due 2012-10-03 -- OPEN
16:37:01 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/actions/263
16:37:10 <susanisrael> aleecia: thanks. TL cld not make call.  Aleecia needs to contact Tom lowenthal, there is another action vs him.  next 263: lyida?
16:37:16 <susanisrael> was ninja.
16:37:22 <rigo> action-263: Was overtaken by events
16:37:22 <trackbot> ACTION-263 Provide updated text regarding minimization (with nick) notes added
16:37:27 <susanisrael> ninja: can close bd of discussions in amsterdam
16:37:28 <aleecia> Action-276, financial logging retention, Lou Mastria
16:37:28 <aleecia> 		Action-286, DAA text on "unlinkability," Lou Mastria
16:37:31 <npdoty> close action-263
16:37:31 <trackbot> ACTION-263 Provide updated text regarding minimization (with nick) closed
16:37:46 <npdoty> it looks like Lou isn't on the call
16:37:48 <dtauerbach> q?
16:37:51 <rigo> action-276?
16:37:51 <trackbot> ACTION-276 -- Luigi Mastria to provide text regarding data retention, applicable to finanical logging data -- due 2012-10-10 -- OPEN
16:37:51 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/actions/276
16:37:53 <susanisrael> aleecia: 2 for lou: financial logging retention 276 then daa text on unlinkability
16:37:55 <rigo> q?
16:37:59 <npdoty> do other DAA folks have any updates on Lou?
16:38:04 <johnsimpson> zakim, who is on the call?
16:38:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see aleecia, robsherman, Rigo, +1.425.310.aacc, BrendanIAB?, rvaneijk, AmyC, dwainberg, jeffwilson, adrianba (muted), npdoty, ninjamarnau, jchester2 (muted), hwest,
16:38:08 <Zakim> ... vinay, vincent, hefferjr, +1.202.642.aann, fielding, WileyS, Chapell, +aarr, +1.301.351.aass, cblouch, susanisrael, Keith, suegl, Brooks, AnnaLong, [FTC], johnsimpson,
16:38:08 <Zakim> ... [Microsoft], eberkower, +385221bbbb, [CDT], Walter
16:38:13 <aleecia> Action-315, verify ad associations' use case, Brendan Riordan-Butterworth
16:38:16 <rigo> Action-315?
16:38:16 <trackbot> ACTION-315 -- Brendan Riordan-Butterworth to verify whether ad associations' use case will work with the proposed resolution for 171 from Shane -- due 2012-10-12 -- CLOSED
16:38:16 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/actions/315
16:38:18 <susanisrael> aleecia: i need to check in with lou. we heard jmayer cant join, but working on actions, they are also in play some done
16:38:30 <susanisrael> aleecia: 315 for brendan
16:38:35 <susanisrael> brendan: done/closed
16:38:45 <npdoty> I think we actually resolved 315 while in Amsterdam, there wasn't new text, yeah?
16:38:48 <susanisrael> aleecia: think that should be pending review?
16:38:52 <Chris_IAB> npdoty, I'm meeting with Lou later today; can you please email me on these actions and I'll follow-up with him?
16:38:53 <Zakim> -Walter
16:39:01 <rigo> Action-315: There was new text in Amsterdam
16:39:01 <trackbot> ACTION-315 Verify whether ad associations' use case will work with the proposed resolution for 171 from Shane notes added
16:39:05 <npdoty> Chris_IAB, yes, absolutely
16:39:08 <susanisrael> brendan: was research not text, so not pending review
16:39:14 <Chris_IAB> npdoty, thanks
16:39:14 <susanisrael> brendan [inaudible]
16:39:35 <jchester2> I have to leave call to do a meeting.  Apologies.
16:39:45 <susanisrael> aleecia: brendan can you put url where this was discussed on mailing list into notes section on actoin? brendan yes
16:39:49 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
16:39:50 <Zakim> -jchester2
16:39:53 <Zakim> -AmyC
16:39:59 <aleecia> Action-317, examples on same party, David Singer
16:39:59 <aleecia> 		Action-316, when service provider indication is necessary, David Singer
16:40:01 <aleecia> 		Action-308, coordinate exceptions text across TPE and Compliance specs, David Singer
16:40:02 <aleecia> 		Action-307, non-norm text on 119, David Singer
16:40:04 <aleecia> 		Action-320, examples on out-of-band consent, David Singer
16:40:05 <aleecia> 		Action-282, one DNT header, David Singer
16:40:06 <aleecia> 		Action-268, party sync across both documents, David Singer
16:40:06 <susanisrael> aleecia: mattias not on call, has one action.  a bunch for david singer
16:40:07 <aleecia> 		Action-249, qualifiers to reflect permissions, sync across both documents, David Singer
16:40:27 <aleecia> Action-291, screen size, Kevin Smith
16:40:29 <jeffwilson> aleecia: david not on call, need to check in for status on his items
16:40:34 <susanisrael> ....first 317. not seeing david.  I (aleecia) need to check in with david as well
16:40:36 <rigo> Action-291?
16:40:36 <trackbot> ACTION-291 -- Kevin Smith to update to 3.5.2 to address different requirements regarding screen size -- due 2012-10-10 -- OPEN
16:40:36 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/actions/291
16:40:42 <Walter> Zakim: code?
16:40:47 <aleecia> Action-295, should v. must, Berin Szoka /* this action could use a better title */
16:40:49 <susanisrael> kevin smith: working on my aciton right now will be done end of day
16:40:52 <rigo> Action-295?
16:40:52 <trackbot> ACTION-295 -- Berin Szoka to should v. Must (In General) -- due 2012-10-11 -- OPEN
16:40:52 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/actions/295
16:41:03 <susanisrael> aleecia: berin: action 295 shouldvs must
16:41:41 <JC> Isn't there already standard language for that?
16:41:44 <rigo> Action-295: It is a placeholder and is incumbent on W3C to make the difference clearer between should and must
16:41:44 <trackbot> ACTION-295 Should v. Must (In General) notes added
16:41:48 <susanisrael> berin: this was place holder bc there was lack of understanding of these terms and they needed to be explained but maybe incumbent on others to make this more clear, should be understood with complete precision
16:41:48 <jeffwilson> berin: wanted 295 as placeholder to clear up misunderstandings
16:41:58 <npdoty> so were you volunteering to help draft text to explain or clarify?
16:42:09 <Zakim> + +1.609.258.bbcc
16:42:12 <dwainberg> q+
16:42:15 <efelten> Zakim, bbcc is me
16:42:15 <Zakim> +efelten; got it
16:42:18 <Chris_IAB> all, appologies in advance-- plane is landing soon, so I'll be kicked offline for the rest of the meeting
16:42:19 <BrendanIAB> http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2119.txt <- read this
16:42:19 <susanisrael> aleecia: there has been lots of work on list, including roy's.  suggest looking at archives, and we have definitions.  Would take specific questions.
16:42:47 <npdoty> are you volunteering to compile and summarize, BerinSzoka?
16:42:48 <fielding> RFC2119 hs been used by thousands of standards documents.  This is not a useful discussion.
16:42:52 <rigo> Action-295: http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2119.txt <- read this
16:42:52 <trackbot> ACTION-295 Should v. Must (In General) notes added
16:43:04 <susanisrael> berin: not what i recall from mtg.  can you include post from list that you have in mind? can you collect in one place? to understand what you have in mind.
16:43:17 <aleecia> ack dwainberg
16:43:19 <susanisrael> aleecia: rigo has suggested text and there is url from ietf.
16:43:33 <justin_> SHOULD   This word, or the adjective "RECOMMENDED", mean that there    may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances to ignore a    particular item, but the full implications must be understood and    carefully weighed before choosing a different course.
16:43:44 <susanisrael> dwainberg: echo berin's concerns, feels there is not full consensus on should vs. must
16:43:44 <rigo> q+
16:43:49 <aleecia> ack rigo
16:44:02 <johnsimpson> LOOK AT DOCUMENT RIGO POSTED!
16:44:13 <fielding> It is not possible to be clearer than a normative reference to RFC2119.
16:44:20 <ksmith> The concern at Amsterdam was not what we meant when we said should and must, but how it would be interpreted externally
16:44:21 <WileyS> Rigo - but the W3C doesn't work on Policy documents - this is a first (much further than P3P)
16:44:26 <BrendanIAB> The words are very well defined, it's the implications of the words that people get worked up about.
16:44:38 <susanisrael> rigo: david w3c is operating with shoulds and musts since i joined in 99 and it always meant what ietf was defining. between technicians there is good understanding of what they mean.
16:44:42 <WileyS> Rigo - its the Policy context issue that's in question here - from a tech spec perspective it makes sense as is.
16:45:04 <npdoty> BerinSzoka, I understood that you took this action item because you were volunteering to write something to clarify for the group, is that right?
16:45:12 <susanisrael> rigo: if we have trouble understanding of rsp 2190 then we should have separate call to discuss
16:45:34 <justin_> I don't understand the distinction.
16:45:38 <rigo> s/2190/2119/
16:45:46 <jeffwilson> dwainberg: definitions of should/must change when taken in a policy context
16:45:51 <npdoty> lawyers read a lot of W3C specs, like around accessibility, if people are looking for past experience
16:45:53 <susanisrael> dw: i think disconnect is when we transfer this from tech context to compliance context where lawyers and compliance professionals will read differently
16:45:54 <vincent> s/rsp 2190/rfc 2119/
16:45:56 <susanisrael> aleecia: why?
16:45:57 <Chris_IAB> it's the legal interpretation, which will inherently be jurisdictionally derived, that causes heartburn with these words in a "global" policy doc
16:46:02 <fielding> That is irrelevant -- we don't need to reach a "common understanding" of how lawyers read documents.
16:46:07 <amyc> amyc has joined #dnt
16:46:31 <WileyS> Aleecia - as you'll like not be the subject of legal charges in this area I can see why you're not worried.  This is definitely a concern for those that are being asked to implement the standard.
16:46:40 <WileyS> s/like/likely
16:46:41 <Chris_IAB> fielding, I agree, in part-- but the selection of the right word should consider it's use in context
16:46:43 <susanisrael> dw: there seems to be misunderstanding of how people will read these.  will not be read as optional, rather should will be read as mandatory/must in legal/compliance context.
16:46:51 <susanisrael> aleecia: roy can you review these defs?
16:47:07 <Zakim> +ChrisPedigoOPA
16:47:29 <susanisrael> roy: should means interoperability requirements that would be must but there are conditions in world that override interroperability so you can't do it
16:47:43 <justin_> Lawyers are going to have to interpret all these words.  There is nothing magical about SHOULD.
16:48:04 <susanisrael> dw: don't understand how this will be understood in legal/compliance context.
16:48:30 <WileyS> So we'll all clear now:  SHOULD = MUST in most cases
16:48:37 <susanisrael> roy: normative def of rsc 2119. we should be talking about indifvidual requirements if these might be confusing. not meta discussion of terms
16:48:38 <rigo> johnsimpson, it was posted by Brendan
16:48:55 <johnsimpson> I agree with Roy. This discussion is a waste of time. We have the definitions.
16:49:18 <JC> s/rsc/rfc/
16:49:41 <dwainberg> If we agree that SHOULD=MUST then problem solved
16:49:43 <susanisrael> aleecia: should is usually going to be almost as strong as must, still a very strong statement. lou got it inamsterdam. not sure we why we still have problems.  berin what would you like to do about this.
16:49:46 <Chapell> Ahhh, I thought of SHOULD as sort of a "recommended practice" or "best practice" --- more aspirational... I now understand that SHOULD = MUST
16:50:01 <ksmith> Also agree with Roy.  We have had this discussion and the same clarification several times.
16:50:09 <susanisrael> berin: thought this needed attention, but did not mean to do it myself. would like to see links to def.
16:50:19 <justin_> Again, BerinSzoka, http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2119.txt
16:50:23 <susanisrael> berin: lots of people are not clear
16:50:24 <fielding> If there is a specific requirement in our document that might be confusing, then we should clarify that requirement -- not have a metadiscussion about the meaning of well-defined terms that have been accepted in practice for more than a decade.
16:50:27 <johnsimpson> Rigo, didn't you post the link to 2119?
16:50:38 <rigo> no, this was Brendan
16:50:44 <rigo> :)
16:50:45 <npdoty> I take it we don't have volunteers for this action item
16:50:45 <justin_> This is worse than a rathole.
16:50:50 <susanisrael> aleecia: if you have specific quesitons re: rfc pls send to mailing list.
16:51:10 <rigo> close action-295
16:51:10 <trackbot> ACTION-295 Should v. Must (In General) closed
16:51:13 <aleecia> Action-289, define "unlinkable", Rachel Thomas
16:51:14 <aleecia> 		Action-287, define "user expectation", Rachel Thomas
16:51:15 <aleecia> 		Action-270, DAA text for service providers, Rachel Thomas
16:51:28 <damiano> var option = 0; // means all data, no filters
16:51:33 <damiano> sorry wrong window
16:51:44 <aleecia> Action-300, service provider option, Heather West
16:51:44 <susanisrael> aleecia: couple of actions for rachel not sure what is going on.  she is not on call, we will have to figure out over email.
16:51:44 <aleecia> 		Action-288, update compliance draft with non-normative "unlinkable" text option from Shane, Heather West
16:51:45 <aleecia> 		Action-271, update service provider language, Heather West
16:51:46 <aleecia> 		Action-251, add DNT:0 defn, Heather West
16:51:50 <susanisrael> aleecia: actions for heather
16:51:57 <susanisrael> heather: need another week
16:52:02 <Chapell> I imagine some of us may want to re-evaluate language that includes SHOULD
16:52:18 <aleecia> 		Action-212, UA consent to turn on DNT, Shane Wiley /* confused. Created in June, listed as dropped in August, yet due in September? */
16:52:18 <aleecia> 		Action-306, define "declared" data, Shane Wiley
16:52:20 <aleecia> 		Action-280, UA explanatory text & examples, Shane Wiley
16:52:21 <aleecia> 		Action-265, update 3.8.1, Shane Wiley
16:52:22 <npdoty> action-288 due 10-16
16:52:22 <trackbot> ACTION-288 Update unlinkable with non-normative text from Shane due date now 10-16
16:52:22 <aleecia> 		Action-274, independent use for service providers, Shane Wiley
16:52:23 <aleecia> 		Action-314, multi-domain site exceptions, Shane Wiley
16:52:27 <susanisrael> heather: all adding simple content to compliance draft
16:52:28 <WileyS> A few made it to pending review - some didn't
16:52:31 <rigo> action-212?
16:52:31 <trackbot> ACTION-212 -- Shane Wiley to draft text on how user agents must obtain consent to turn on a DNT signal -- due 2012-09-26 -- OPEN
16:52:31 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/actions/212
16:52:31 <npdoty> action-271 due 10-16
16:52:32 <trackbot> ACTION-271 Update service provider language to apply to first and third parties due date now 10-16
16:52:32 <vinay_> vinay_ has joined #dnt
16:52:37 <npdoty> action-300 due 10-16
16:52:37 <trackbot> ACTION-300 Add a service provider option (or condense with option 1) from jmayer due date now 10-16
16:52:41 <susanisrael> aleecia: shane-action 212 re: user agent consent and turning on do not track.  is that live?
16:53:02 <Zakim> -[FTC]
16:53:13 <susanisrael> shane: that's live, we revived it in amsterdam. i have draft ideas but have not compiled to final language. was discusison in amsterdam re: link
16:53:32 <npdoty> I see, so this isn't about obtaining consent, but a requirement on providing context/info?
16:53:39 <rigo> ACTION-212: Shane has Draft ideas but not compiled yet. We do not want to use the word link to avoid UI specificity. Now have to re-create Specification text
16:53:39 <trackbot> ACTION-212 Draft text on how user agents must obtain consent to turn on a DNT signal notes added
16:53:42 <npdoty> action-212 due 10-16
16:53:42 <trackbot> ACTION-212 Draft text on how user agents must obtain consent to turn on a DNT signal due date now 10-16
16:53:46 <susanisrael> shane: there was opposition to UI specificity of the term "link" but making progress, so one more week on all my actions
16:53:49 <susanisrael> aleecia: working actively on them?
16:53:51 <susanisrael> shane: yes
16:54:13 <Zakim> -WileyS
16:54:25 <susanisrael> aleecia: we are at about 50 action items for today that did not get done but it is hard to get stuff done if we don't get action items.  not picking on shane
16:54:34 <npdoty> action-288 due 10-23
16:54:34 <trackbot> ACTION-288 Update unlinkable with non-normative text from Shane due date now 10-23
16:54:39 <npdoty> action-271 due 10-23
16:54:39 <trackbot> ACTION-271 Update service provider language to apply to first and third parties due date now 10-23
16:54:40 <Zakim> +WileyS
16:54:42 <aleecia> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:54:42 <Zakim> On the phone I see aleecia, robsherman, Rigo, +1.425.310.aacc, BrendanIAB?, rvaneijk, dwainberg, jeffwilson, adrianba (muted), npdoty, ninjamarnau, hwest, vinay, vincent, hefferjr,
16:54:46 <Zakim> ... +1.202.642.aann, fielding, Chapell, +aarr, +1.301.351.aass, cblouch, susanisrael, Keith, suegl, Brooks, AnnaLong, johnsimpson, [Microsoft], eberkower, +385221bbbb, [CDT],
16:54:46 <Zakim> ... [Microsoft.a], efelten, ChrisPedigoOPA, WileyS
16:54:55 <rigo> action-212 du 10-23
16:55:01 <dtauerbach> 301 is me
16:55:01 <susanisrael> aleecia: that walks us throug action items on old business.  now unidentified callers
16:55:06 <WileyS> Aleecia - do you want to review those I did move to "Pending Review"?
16:55:13 <npdoty> Zakim, aass is dtauerbach
16:55:13 <Zakim> +dtauerbach; got it
16:55:30 <aleecia> we'll take those next call, thank you!
16:55:44 <npdoty> Zakim, aann is [FTC]
16:55:44 <Zakim> +[FTC]; got it
16:56:02 <npdoty> Zakim, aacc is RobertCapella
16:56:02 <Zakim> +RobertCapella; got it
16:56:21 <aleecia> Hi Robert, where are you calling from?
16:56:34 <Chapell> it's france right?
16:56:34 <Chapell> rigo?
16:56:41 <vincent> nop france is 33
16:56:43 <rvaneijk> Serbia
16:56:54 <npdoty> Zakim, drop bbbb
16:56:54 <Zakim> +385221bbbb is being disconnected
16:56:56 <Zakim> - +385221bbbb
16:57:12 <aleecia> ISSUE-174	How do we create straightforward compliance for implementers retaining data for N weeks or less?
16:57:40 <WileyS> 38 is Yugoslavia (Interesting)
16:57:41 <justin_> fielding has suggested some text that gets to this that I still need to incorporate into the draft
16:57:43 <susanisrael> aleecia: couple of new issues with no actions associated with them.  first issue 174 to create compliance for implementers with short retention times.
16:57:55 <npdoty> justin, fielding, can you elaborate a bit?
16:58:09 <susanisrael> aleecia: who wants to work with ian on this? [no volunteers] if no interest we will close for lack of interest
16:58:12 <rigo> issue-174?
16:58:12 <trackbot> ISSUE-174 -- How do we create straightforward compliance for implementers retaining data for N weeks or less? -- raised
16:58:12 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/issues/174
16:58:16 <WileyS> Is Ian on today?  We've be discussing this on the side so he may have more thoughts here.
16:58:24 <rigo> q?
16:58:27 <rigo> q+
16:58:43 <aleecia> ack rigo
16:58:45 <susanisrael> justin: gets more to collection and first party/third party thing. may not need an action, some text for me to incorporate
16:59:28 <susanisrael> rigo: think this was discussion in amsterdam to see if we have 6 week retention period then get rid of data then could have best practice on how to implement. /superdnt
16:59:29 <npdoty> I assume Ian wants to volunteer or will find a volunteer (since he already has a lot of open action items)
17:00:03 <WileyS> Nick, I only raise it since he's not here
17:00:14 <susanisrael> rigo: is related to what mattias was saying. i don't want to write text, but someone who knows servers should do this. pls don't close this without asking ian and mattias.
17:00:49 <susanisrael> aleecia: generally won't wait for people just bc they are not on call, but hearing ian working on it, and from justin that roy is also working on it.
17:00:59 <npdoty> (I'll add notes to 174)
17:01:00 <fielding> I don't think I am working on it
17:01:02 <susanisrael> aleecia: its a candidate for closure if no one steps up
17:01:10 <aleecia> ISSUE-175	Have an appendix of best practices?
17:01:17 <rigo> issue-174: Ian and Roy were working on this. This is a candidate for closure if nobody works on it soon.
17:01:17 <trackbot> ISSUE-174 How do we create straightforward compliance for implementers retaining data for N weeks or less? notes added
17:01:22 <fielding> … but I may have lost those brain cells.
17:01:49 <susanisrael> aleecia: discussed appendix of best practices. may be able to take some of the non normative text for this. but maybe also some new text for this.
17:02:01 <rigo> fielding, Ian had some nice ideas
17:02:24 <susanisrael> aleecia: would have expected jonathan or tl to work on this but they are not on call
17:02:29 <npdoty> q+
17:02:30 <susanisrael> aleecia: anyone else?
17:02:34 <aleecia> ack npdoty
17:02:54 <susanisrael> nick: i was one of people suggesting moving text to appendices and am willing to do that.
17:03:08 <npdoty> npdoty: willing to volunteer to re-factor, not writing new appendices.
17:03:21 <susanisrael> aleecia: more than a one-week task?
17:03:26 <justin_> npdoty, sure, let's talk
17:03:30 <aleecia> ISSUE-178	Add "Marketing" to list of permitted uses in Compliance document
17:03:33 <susanisrael> nick maybe one week to start with and others will want to add
17:03:47 <npdoty> action: doty to help re-factor into appendices (with justin, jmayer?)
17:03:47 <trackbot> Created ACTION-325 - Help re-factor into appendices (with justin, jmayer?) [on Nick Doty - due 2012-10-24].
17:03:53 <rigo> issue-178?
17:03:53 <trackbot> ISSUE-178 -- Add "Marketing" to list of permitted uses in Compliance document -- raised
17:03:53 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/issues/178
17:03:59 <npdoty> action-325: this is related to issue-175
17:03:59 <trackbot> ACTION-325 Help re-factor into appendices (with justin, jmayer?) notes added
17:04:03 <susanisrael> aleecia: 178: there was issue to add marketing to list of permitted uses
17:04:11 <npdoty> are 178 and 180 distinct?
17:04:12 <aleecia> ISSUE-180	Add "advertising" as a Permitted Use in the Compliance Document
17:04:20 <susanisrael> keith scarborough volunteers to work with rachel on 178 and 180
17:04:28 <rigo> issue-180?
17:04:28 <trackbot> ISSUE-180 -- Add "advertising" as a Permitted Use in the Compliance Document -- raised
17:04:28 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/issues/180
17:04:38 <susanisrael> aleecia: thank you. 1 week ok?
17:04:42 <susanisrael> keith s: yes
17:04:43 <npdoty> action: keith to draft a proposal on marketing permitted use (with rachel)
17:04:43 <trackbot> Created ACTION-326 - Draft a proposal on marketing permitted use (with rachel) [on Keith Scarborough - due 2012-10-24].
17:04:56 <npdoty> action-326: issue-178
17:04:56 <trackbot> ACTION-326 Draft a proposal on marketing permitted use (with rachel) notes added
17:05:10 <npdoty> action: keith to draft a proposal on advertising permitted use (with rachel)
17:05:10 <trackbot> Created ACTION-327 - Draft a proposal on advertising permitted use (with rachel) [on Keith Scarborough - due 2012-10-24].
17:05:12 <aleecia> Action-273, text about multiple first parties, Rob Sherman (text: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tracking/2012Sep/0247.html)
17:05:16 <rigo> action-273?
17:05:16 <trackbot> ACTION-273 -- Rob Sherman to propose text regarding multiple first parties -- due 2012-10-10 -- OPEN
17:05:16 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/actions/273
17:05:16 <Zakim> -RobertCapella
17:05:17 <npdoty> action-327: issue-180
17:05:17 <trackbot> ACTION-327 Draft a proposal on advertising permitted use (with rachel) notes added
17:05:25 <susanisrael> aleecia: final item for today.  3 actions i think should be shifted over to pending review. first action 273 -rob sherman- re: multiple first parties
17:06:17 <susanisrael> .....he was talking about site with 2 owners. there was discussion on list, of whether widget, and was not what he is talking about.  I think we are clear on text.  might help to clarify this is not about social widgets.
17:06:54 <rigo> q+
17:06:55 <ksmith> ksmith has left #dnt
17:06:59 <susanisrael> rob: i think that is generally right. one editorial suggestion.  not social widget like "like" button. can find a way to clarify. feel free anyone to offer specific thoughts
17:07:03 <aleecia> ack rigo
17:07:11 <aleecia> so: 1 more week for this action, please
17:07:48 <jeffwilson> rigo: have trouble with "reasonably expect" - expectations vary greatly
17:07:58 <npdoty> action-273 due 10-23
17:07:58 <trackbot> ACTION-273 Propose text regarding multiple first parties due date now 10-23
17:08:00 <fielding> speaking of social, how would a brand page on facebook be considered? Would 1st party be the brand owner, FB, or both?
17:08:02 <susanisrael> rigo: from legal point of view always have trouble with "reasonably expect to communicate." can you offer another standard besides user expectation
17:08:19 <npdoty> +1 fielding, I think that might be part of this, and would be a good example
17:08:28 <susanisrael> rob: would have to give it some thought. was trying to give more guidance.  maybe we can talk separately rigo.
17:08:38 <npdoty> fielding, in fact, it's one of Rob's examples at: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tracking/2012Sep/0247.html
17:08:42 <susanisrael> rob: don't want magic text that makes a party a first party. let's discuss.
17:09:11 <aleecia> Action-277, text regarding contracts, David Singer (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tracking/2012Oct/0078.html)
17:09:13 <npdoty> action-273: make revisions regarding clarity about not current social widgets
17:09:13 <trackbot> ACTION-273 Propose text regarding multiple first parties notes added
17:09:15 <susanisrael> aleecia: roy qu? roy: comfortable with discussion on irc.
17:09:39 <susanisrael> aleecia: action 277 dsinger not on call but i think we are ready to move that to pending review.
17:09:40 <aleecia> Action-267, DAA's 1st/3rd party definitions, Rachael Thomas (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tracking/2012Oct/0159.html) plus bonus definition of affiliate (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tracking/2012Oct/0175.html) and Kimon on third parties and control (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tracking/2012Oct/0176.html)
17:09:53 <Walter> rigo: what about 'reference'?
17:09:59 <susanisrael> rachel and kimon both not on call but had them for first and third party definitions
17:10:01 <robsherman> fielding, I think that for a brand page on Facebook both Facebook and the brand would be first parties
17:10:25 <susanisrael> aleecia: will check in with them since they are not on call
17:10:35 <rigo> Walter, what context?
17:10:46 <npdoty> aleecia will follow up with Rachel and Kimon regarding 1st/3rd definitions to make sure we have pending review text
17:10:54 <rigo> aleecia, can I just make an annoucement?
17:11:14 <dwainberg> aleecia, can you post your schedule?
17:11:18 <susanisrael> aleecia: calls will be different as we work through items from amsterdam, and would like to be able to review one of these next time, and hopefully get to organic consensus.
17:11:24 <dwainberg> (your intended schedule for getting to LC?)
17:11:25 <Zakim> -dtauerbach
17:11:44 <susanisrael> rigo: working on global considerations asap, and kimon hopeful.  if you want to participate pls email.
17:11:46 <fielding> action fielding to address how multiple first parties can be expressed in tracking status representation
17:11:46 <trackbot> Created ACTION-328 - Address how multiple first parties can be expressed in tracking status representation [on Roy Fielding - due 2012-10-24].
17:11:48 <amyc> anything on timeline?
17:11:59 <susanisrael> dwainberg: timeline for last call?
17:12:05 <susanisrael> aleecia: will reply to mailing list.
17:12:12 <amyc> thx
17:12:13 <rigo> amy, around 19 Nov, but we have no confirmation
17:12:18 <susanisrael> aleecia.  just home after amsterdam, will try to catch up to mailing list.
17:12:22 <Zakim> - +aarr
17:12:23 <Zakim> -efelten
17:12:24 <Zakim> -[CDT]
17:12:25 <Zakim> -ChrisPedigoOPA
17:12:25 <Zakim> -hwest
17:12:25 <Zakim> -aleecia
17:12:25 <npdoty> adjourned.
17:12:26 <Zakim> -suegl
17:12:26 <Zakim> -hefferjr
17:12:27 <Zakim> -Brooks
17:12:27 <Zakim> -vincent
17:12:28 <Zakim> -cblouch
17:12:28 <Zakim> -adrianba
17:12:28 <Zakim> -johnsimpson
17:12:28 <Zakim> -susanisrael
17:12:28 <Zakim> -Rigo
17:12:28 <Zakim> -robsherman
17:12:29 <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
17:12:30 <Zakim> -dwainberg
17:12:31 <Zakim> -Chapell
17:12:32 <npdoty> thanks to susanisrael for keeping up on scribing
17:12:32 <Zakim> -ninjamarnau
17:12:33 <Zakim> -[FTC]
17:12:35 <npdoty> Zakim, list attendees
17:12:35 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +1.408.674.aaaa, +1.202.370.aabb, robsherman, aleecia, Rigo, +1.425.310.aacc, BrendanIAB?, +31.65.141.aadd, rvaneijk, Walter, +aaee,
17:12:38 <Zakim> ... +1.206.658.aaff, +1.646.801.aagg, AmyC, dwainberg, +1.703.265.aahh, adrianba, jeffwilson, +1.510.859.aaii, npdoty, +1.813.358.aajj, +49.431.98.aakk, jchester2, hwest,
17:12:38 <Zakim> ... ninjamarnau, +1.415.728.aall, sidstamm, vinay, +1.813.366.aamm, +1.202.642.aann, +1.714.852.aaoo, vincent, hefferjr, fielding, +1.408.349.aapp, WileyS, +1.917.318.aaqq, +aarr,
17:12:41 <Zakim> ... +1.301.351.aass, +1.202.507.aatt, +1.703.265.aauu, +1.215.286.aavv, +1.425.269.aaww, ChrisPedigoOPA, Keith, suegl, susanisrael, cblouch, Chapell, +1.678.580.aaxx, Brooks,
17:12:41 <Zakim> ... AnnaLong, [FTC], +1.310.392.aayy, johnsimpson, [Microsoft], +1.408.536.aazz, +1.646.202.bbaa, +385221bbbb, eberkower, [CDT], [IPcaller], +1.609.258.bbcc, efelten, dtauerbach,
17:12:41 <Zakim> ... RobertCapella
17:12:41 <Zakim> -fielding
17:12:41 <Zakim> -WileyS
17:12:41 <Zakim> -eberkower
17:12:42 <Zakim> -vinay
17:12:42 <Zakim> -AnnaLong
17:12:50 <Zakim> -jeffwilson
17:12:50 <npdoty> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:12:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/17-dnt-minutes.html npdoty
17:13:16 <cblouch> cblouch has left #dnt
17:13:16 <Zakim> -BrendanIAB?
17:13:17 <Zakim> -Keith
17:13:24 <npdoty> Zakim, end call
17:13:24 <Zakim> I don't understand 'end call', npdoty
17:13:29 <npdoty> Zakim, who is on the phone?
17:13:29 <Zakim> On the phone I see rvaneijk, npdoty, [Microsoft]
17:13:36 <npdoty> Zakim, drop rvaneijk
17:13:36 <Zakim> rvaneijk is being disconnected
17:13:37 <Zakim> -rvaneijk
17:13:39 <npdoty> Zakim, drop npdoty
17:13:39 <Zakim> npdoty is being disconnected
17:13:41 <Zakim> -npdoty
17:13:44 <npdoty> Zakim, drop [Microsoft]
17:13:44 <Zakim> [Microsoft] is being disconnected
17:13:46 <Zakim> T&S_Track(dnt)12:00PM has ended
17:13:46 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.408.674.aaaa, +1.202.370.aabb, robsherman, aleecia, Rigo, +1.425.310.aacc, BrendanIAB?, +31.65.141.aadd, rvaneijk, Walter, +aaee, +1.206.658.aaff,
17:13:46 <Zakim> ... +1.646.801.aagg, AmyC, dwainberg, +1.703.265.aahh, adrianba, jeffwilson, +1.510.859.aaii, npdoty, +1.813.358.aajj, +49.431.98.aakk, jchester2, hwest, ninjamarnau,
17:13:47 <Zakim> ... +1.415.728.aall, sidstamm, vinay, +1.813.366.aamm, +1.202.642.aann, +1.714.852.aaoo, vincent, hefferjr, fielding, +1.408.349.aapp, WileyS, +1.917.318.aaqq, +aarr,
17:13:47 <Zakim> ... +1.301.351.aass, +1.202.507.aatt, +1.703.265.aauu, +1.215.286.aavv, +1.425.269.aaww, ChrisPedigoOPA, Keith, suegl, susanisrael, cblouch, Chapell, +1.678.580.aaxx, Brooks,
17:13:51 <Zakim> ... AnnaLong, [FTC], +1.310.392.aayy, johnsimpson, [Microsoft], +1.408.536.aazz, +1.646.202.bbaa, +385221bbbb, eberkower, [CDT], [IPcaller], +1.609.258.bbcc, efelten, dtauerbach,
17:13:51 <Zakim> ... RobertCapella
17:13:55 <npdoty> Zakim, bye
17:13:55 <Zakim> Zakim has left #dnt
17:13:56 <aleecia> thanks, Nick, I always forget the follow up
17:13:57 <npdoty> rrsagent, bye
17:13:57 <RRSAgent> I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/10/17-dnt-actions.rdf :
17:13:57 <RRSAgent> ACTION: aleecia to compile public compliance commitment options for potential Call [1]
17:13:57 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/10/17-dnt-irc#T16-29-26
17:13:57 <RRSAgent> ACTION: doty to help re-factor into appendices (with justin, jmayer?) [2]
17:13:57 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/10/17-dnt-irc#T17-03-47
17:13:57 <RRSAgent> ACTION: keith to draft a proposal on marketing permitted use (with rachel) [3]
17:13:57 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/10/17-dnt-irc#T17-04-43
17:13:57 <RRSAgent> ACTION: keith to draft a proposal on advertising permitted use (with rachel) [4]
17:13:57 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/10/17-dnt-irc#T17-05-10