15:48:29 RRSAgent has joined #css 15:48:29 logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/10/17-css-irc 15:48:36 Zakim has joined #css 15:48:46 rrsagent, make logs public 15:48:52 zakim, this will be style 15:48:52 ok, plinss; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 12 minutes 15:50:47 jet_ has joined #CSS 15:51:18 Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started 15:51:35 +??P1 15:52:14 +??P28 15:54:25 SimonSapin has joined #css 15:55:26 SimonSapin has joined #css 15:56:03 +plinss 15:56:15 SimonSapin has joined #css 15:57:02 the conf call changes timezones next week, right? 15:57:19 oh? 15:58:05 + +1.512.199.aaaa 15:58:35 zakim, aaaa is SimonSapin 15:58:35 +SimonSapin; got it 15:58:57 I think it’s noon Boston time, but there is a DST change 15:59:17 strange, I should be calling from +33something, not +1 15:59:42 lstorset has joined #css 16:00:04 antonp has joined #css 16:00:08 + +47.23.69.aabb 16:00:08 +Stearns 16:00:09 zakim, ?P28 is kenneth 16:00:09 sorry, plinss, I do not recognize a party named '?P28' 16:00:16 Zakim, aabb is me 16:00:16 +lstorset; got it 16:00:18 rbetts has joined #css 16:00:20 zakim, P28 is kenneth 16:00:21 sorry, plinss, I do not recognize a party named 'P28' 16:00:28 oyvind has joined #css 16:00:37 zakim, who is on the phone? 16:00:38 On the phone I see ??P1, ??P28, plinss, SimonSapin, lstorset, Stearns 16:00:38 I believe I was the first one :) Alexis Menard :) 16:00:39 + +1.619.846.aacc 16:00:47 zakim, ??P28 is kenneth 16:00:47 +kenneth; got it 16:00:57 + +93550aadd 16:01:02 Zakim, aadd is me 16:01:02 +antonp; got it 16:01:04 zakim, ??P1 is darktears 16:01:04 +darktears; got it 16:01:48 tantek has joined #css 16:01:52 +fantasai 16:02:24 Good morning. I am at a conference and will be participating by IRC only. 16:02:27 Zakim, +tantek 16:02:27 I wonder where tantek is 16:02:32 :D 16:02:46 -SimonSapin 16:02:49 + +1.604.312.aaee 16:02:50 +[IPcaller] 16:02:52 + +1.415.766.aaff 16:02:57 Zakim, aaff is dbaron 16:02:57 +dbaron; got it 16:02:59 zakim, [ipcaller] is me 16:02:59 +koji; got it 16:03:10 Zakim, aaee is me 16:03:10 +rbetts; got it 16:03:31 +SteveZ 16:04:19 smfr has joined #css 16:04:19 @dbaron, and the waiting is such fun. The guy doesn't like being interrupted 16:04:42 + +1.415.832.aagg 16:04:48 + +33.9.52.34.aahh 16:05:11 + +1.408.636.aaii 16:05:19 Zakim, aaii is me 16:05:19 +smfr; got it 16:05:22 + +1.281.305.aajj 16:05:24 stupid zakim 16:05:33 someone should fix it 16:05:51 lmclister has joined #css 16:06:00 Zakim, aahh is me 16:06:00 +SimonSapin; got it 16:06:03 krit has joined #css 16:06:09 rhauck has joined #css 16:06:17 zakim, who is on the phone? 16:06:18 On the phone I see darktears, kenneth, plinss, lstorset, Stearns, +1.619.846.aacc, antonp, fantasai, rbetts, koji, dbaron, SteveZ, +1.415.832.aagg, SimonSapin, smfr, 16:06:21 ... +1.281.305.aajj 16:06:34 +[Microsoft] 16:06:36 Zakim, aagg is me 16:06:36 +krit; got it 16:06:54 smfr has changed the topic to: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Oct/0459.html 16:06:56 +??P84 16:07:15 ScribeNick: fantasai 16:07:21 zakim, microsoft has me 16:07:21 +arronei; got it 16:07:30 -kenneth 16:07:37 plinss: Additions to agenda? 16:08:09 Topic: css3-conditional 16:08:54 ... 16:09:23 fantasai: If we're treating unknown things as false, we should treat more things that are unknown as false 16:09:57 Rossen has joined #css 16:10:05 drublic has joined #css 16:10:10 +[Microsoft.a] 16:10:21 fantasai: e.g. right now anything that doesn't parse as a declaration inside parens will make the whole rule invalid 16:10:28 Zakim, [Microsoft.a] has me 16:10:28 +sylvaing; got it 16:10:29 dbaron: I think that's fine, why would we want anything else in there 16:11:15 dbaron: We are making functional notation the way for future extensibility 16:11:21 fantasai: Are we sure that's how we want to do it? 16:11:31 dbaron: Yes, that was why we're doing it this way. 16:11:39 ... 16:12:01 fantasai: So, the bare parentheses is in effect a functional notation (without a name) that accepts property declarations 16:12:07 SteveZ has joined #css 16:12:17 fantasai: If the contents are not a property declaraiton, the entire rule is invalid 16:12:38 +??P92 16:12:39 fantasai: Whereas for other functions right now, regardless of what they contain, they're as false, and do not make the entire thing invalid 16:12:45 s/raiton/ration/ 16:12:47 Zakim, +??P92 is me 16:12:47 sorry, kenneth, I do not recognize a party named '+??P92' 16:12:51 Zakim, ??P92 is me 16:12:51 +kenneth; got it 16:12:56 fantasai: However, suppose we introduced a function in the future that took xyz production. 16:13:14 fantasai: If a stylesheet contained that function with invalid contents 16:13:38 fantasai: If we followed the same pattern of making the entire rule invalid because the contents don't parse correctly 16:13:44 fantasai: good point 16:13:49 JohnJansen has joined #CSS 16:13:54 fantasai: That would mean that old UAs would treat it as false, but new UAs would make the entire rule invalid 16:14:59 zakim, who is noisy? 16:15:10 plinss, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: fantasai (54%), dbaron (9%) 16:15:50 TabAtkins: Functional notation is false no matter what it contains 16:16:30 fantasai: My point is, either you are getting the weird behavior between old/new UAs that I explained OR you are treating the invalidation rules of bare parens different from functional notations, which is inconsistent. 16:17:03 dbaron: It's a bit complicated, because the contents of a parentheses could either be property declaration or be a logical clause 16:17:18 dbaron: I'm okay either way 16:17:23 TabAtkins: I'd like to think about this a bit 16:18:23 dbaron: But it would require redoing a bit of our implementation. But if we decide it's the right thing, we'll do it. 16:18:42 s/weird/inconsistent/ 16:18:46 Topic: Text Decoration 16:18:55 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Aug/0379.html 16:19:13 http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-text-decor-3/#text-decoration-line-property 16:20:42 fantasai explains the proposal 16:20:49 fantasai: We're looking for feedback 16:21:10 smfr: Our engineer prefers the behavior to be the same as the system text in OSX 16:21:18 smfr: It's less complicated than this. 16:21:47 smfr: Takes the thickest underline, and [position] 16:21:53 +[Microsoft.aa] 16:22:08 Zakim, Microsoft has JohnJansen 16:22:08 +JohnJansen; got it 16:22:25 smfr: An underline with a superscript or subscript span inside of it, the underline remains at the baseline, doesn't jump up 16:22:35 smfr: That means subscript can draw on top of underline, and that's okay I think 16:23:06 smfr: No way for strike-through to be consistent on MacOSX -- it will jump around with the font size 16:23:10 smfr: Didn't test overline. Don't think we hvae it 16:23:40 fantasai: One option I was considered was for strike-through to shift when the font-size changed, but not when the font changed. 16:24:33 fantasai: When you have different fonts in the same size, you can get very different metrics because relationship of baseline to embox is different in different fonts 16:25:29 dbaron: How do you combine that with the features in CSS3 Text that allow underlining various things that aren't text? 16:25:29 PhilCupp has joined #css 16:25:32 smfr: No idea 16:25:44 (actually, I think to answer my own question: just use the element's font metrics, even if it's not text) 16:26:11 smfr^: The strike-through shifts around with the font, even if the size is constant 16:26:34 dbaron: Assume the first font you have is the one you're using, and use its metrics 16:26:37 Zakim, aacc is me 16:26:37 +hober; got it 16:26:51 szilles: My concern is mixing Chinese and English text, will the strike-through be reasonable 16:26:55 -Stearns 16:27:04 + +1.425.753.aakk 16:27:05 szilles: e.g. Latin-only font for English, CJK font I only use for the Chinese 16:27:31 Example case: http://test.csswg.org/source/contributors/microsoft/incoming/text-decoration.htm 16:27:41 +Stearns 16:27:47 -Stearns 16:27:57 fantasai: I think it's important that we not shift the line as the font changes. That's been a principle we've adhered to in all our text-decoration discussions in CSS 16:28:02 -kenneth 16:28:44 fantasai: The reason why we've always insisted on one line 16:28:55 smfr: Think overline should shift with the font sizes 16:28:59 smfr: ... 16:29:21 +Stearns 16:29:24 fantasai: The problems you have with overlining would apply to underlines if the dominant baseline were not alphabetic, e.g. using central baseline 16:30:17 TabAtkins: Mac's system text underline already does averaging stuff 16:30:34 TabAtkins: line-through is jumpier than we'd like, should be made not jumpy across font changes 16:30:43 TabAtkins: can't use it for overlines anyway 16:30:49 +??P43 16:31:02 Zakim, ??P43 is me 16:31:02 +kenneth; got it 16:31:03 szilles: Say I'm typing this stuff in. If I put a strike-through in it, would it move? 16:31:50 TabAtkins: [...] 16:32:30 fantasai: So, we're going to go with this, except line-throughs will recalculate whenever 'font-size' changes, but not when font face changes 16:33:34 fantasai: One thing to be careful of -- the font-size-adjust property effectively changes the font size, but its intention is to equalize the visual font sizes across various font faces 16:33:44 fantasai: We should only key off computed 'font-size' 16:34:22 smfr asks about alphabetic underlines not responding to subscripts 16:34:33 fantasai points out we're skipping any boxes that have different vertical-align 16:36:11 smfr: If a line of text has two separate inline boxes, separated by some non-underlined text, would the lines have to be consistent? 16:36:32 TabAtkins: No, it's only consistent if the underline originates from the same decorating box 16:36:35 smfr: ... 16:36:43 smfr: you want to avoid the underline jumping around through editing operations 16:37:05 TabAtkins: I think we should say it's up to the editing tool, to merge underlining elements 16:37:49 TabAtkins: underlining from different elements can be different colors [...] 16:38:11 TabAtkins: Could do averaging across line box, rather than just within fragment 16:38:29 szilles: why would you necessarily want that? 16:38:39 szilles: if I do make a font size change, and want the underlines to be different 16:38:54 szilles: fact that they land on the same line shouldn't make them be the same 16:39:23 szilles: Also, this way if someone really wants ransom-not effect, can get it by making different elements 16:39:31 s/-not/-note/ 16:39:42 szilles: whether two elements are on the same line or not shouldn't matter 16:39:59 (agreement with szilles) 16:40:03 TabAtkins: Ok, so we need to to revisit text to clarify it 16:40:15 fantasai: and change the line-through behavior 16:41:03 koji asks about why overline would be under / underline would be over 16:41:14 fantasai: If we have text-underline-position: above; 16:41:26 fantasai: This puts the underline on the over side 16:41:32 TabAtkins: in vertical text 16:41:57 fantasai: That would put the underline and overline on the same side, so we made overline also switch sides 16:42:03 koji: I thought we weren't doing that 16:42:22 "If this causes the underline to be drawn on the "over" side of the text, then an overline also switches sides and is drawn on the "under" side. " 16:43:00 fantasai: This way if you say 'text-decoration: underline overline', you will get lines on either side of the text regardless 16:44:34 RESOLVED: Accept the proposed rules for line decoration averaging, but change line-throughs to recalculate whenever computed 'font-size' changes. 16:45:37 Topic: UTR50 16:46:03 -kenneth 16:46:19 +Bert 16:46:28 koji: Status is UTR#50v6 is supposed to be published 16:46:29 Zakim, mute Bert 16:46:29 Bert should now be muted 16:46:53 koji: In the UTC rules, file is there, but it's not official 16:47:06 koji: I'm requesting Eric to make it published, but not getting a response 16:47:16 glazou has joined #css 16:47:18 koji: I am preparing v7, it's still in review 16:48:05 koji: For v7, I own the text part, but the data is owned by Laurentiu at MSFT 16:48:15 koji: data part is late, b/c he was off for a bit 16:48:24 koji: ... text part, data part later 16:48:31 koji: That's the status 16:48:57 Topic: grid-layout 16:49:02 http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-grid-layout/#changes-from-previous-version 16:49:03 plinss: Request to publish updated WD 16:49:20 PhilCupp: We haven't published in a while 16:49:37 PhilCupp: There were 3 batches of changes, don't change anything conceptually, but syntactic things that we agreed to 16:49:51 PhilCupp: Want to get a WD out before starting to work on integrating plinss's approach 16:49:54 plinss: I'm fine with that 16:50:04 I am fine with that also 16:50:08 RESOLVED: Publish 16:50:26 plinss: Plans for moving forward? 16:50:39 PhilCupp: Will be in touch with Tab and fantasai to figure out what changes we want to make 16:51:02 TabAtkins: I'll be working on it 16:51:19 plinss: Will you be at TPAC? 16:51:20 One correction to UTR#50 -- data is co-owned by me and Laurentiu at MSFT 16:51:36 PhilCupp: No, can call in though 16:51:45 plinss: BTW, our agenda looks light. Please add things to the wiki 16:52:06 plinss: If have more notice ahead of time, can plan schedule better 16:52:18 (pointer to wiki page?) 16:52:20 plinss: Also there's a W3C developer meetup on Monday night 16:52:22 http://www.w3.org/2012/10/TPAC/meetup-Lyon.html 16:52:29 plinss: If you want to go, register soon 16:52:37 http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/tpac-2012 16:52:46 Topic: SVG Property review 16:53:23 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Sep/0225.html 16:53:44 dbaron: Has anyone else looked at them? 16:53:48 TabAtkins: I have 16:53:59 TabAtkins: Just had some small comments 16:54:18 dbaron: I wanted to look at something specific, but forgot what it was 16:54:22 sylvaing: Was it painting order naming? 16:54:32 sylvaing: I thought it was awkward too, but had no proposal to revise it 16:54:45 dbaron: Maybe say we're not quite comfortable with that naming, but don't have a new proposal 16:55:32 +1 for WG position 16:55:49 fantasai: seems like the WG as a whole has this opinion, so maybe send that as a WG opinion 16:56:24 plinss: Ok, I'll send that feedback on behalf of the WG 16:56:52 SimonSapin has joined #css 16:57:12 Topic: logical directions 16:57:17 koji: before/after vs. head/foot 16:57:35 koji: Problem is i18nwg will discuss at TPAC on this topic, and hope to come up with a resolution as a WG 16:58:06 koji: Since CSSWG is before i18nwg conference, I recommended individuals in the i18nwg to send comments earlier 16:58:26 plinss: Daniel requested a joint meeting with i18n at TPAC 16:58:38 plinss: Don't know if that will happen 16:58:54 koji: Not sure if Addison wants to make this a joint topic 16:59:13 -smfr 16:59:13 - +1.425.753.aakk 16:59:14 -[Microsoft.a] 16:59:15 Meeting closed. 16:59:16 -krit 16:59:17 - +1.281.305.aajj 16:59:17 -lstorset 16:59:17 -??P84 16:59:18 -[Microsoft] 16:59:18 -hober 16:59:18 -dbaron 16:59:18 -Bert 16:59:18 -plinss 16:59:19 -koji 16:59:19 -[Microsoft.aa] 16:59:20 -Stearns 16:59:20 -darktears 16:59:22 -SteveZ 16:59:22 -SimonSapin 16:59:23 zakim, aajj is me 16:59:24 sorry, TabAtkins, I do not recognize a party named 'aajj' 16:59:27 -rbetts 16:59:28 Dammit, too late. 16:59:36 -antonp 16:59:39 How do I tell Zakim that I attended? 17:00:26 I guess there was a command to add attendees but don't remember 17:00:41 present+ Tab 17:00:48 But that's for rrsagent, not zakim 17:00:55 SimonSapin has joined #css 17:01:01 And we rarely use rrsagent 17:02:46 Zakim, aajj was TabAtkins 17:02:46 I don't understand 'aajj was TabAtkins', dbaron 17:03:02 zakim, Tab is in Style_CSS 17:03:02 sorry, koji, I do not recognize a party named 'Style_CSS' 17:03:35 Meh. 17:05:01 disconnecting the lone participant, fantasai, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM 17:05:02 Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended 17:05:02 Attendees were plinss, +1.512.199.aaaa, SimonSapin, +47.23.69.aabb, Stearns, lstorset, +1.619.846.aacc, kenneth, +93550aadd, antonp, darktears, fantasai, +1.604.312.aaee, 17:05:02 ... +1.415.766.aaff, dbaron, koji, rbetts, SteveZ, +1.415.832.aagg, +33.9.52.34.aahh, +1.408.636.aaii, smfr, +1.281.305.aajj, krit, arronei, [Microsoft], sylvaing, JohnJansen, 17:05:03 ... hober, +1.425.753.aakk, Bert 17:05:26 antonp has left #css 17:16:05 oyvind has left #css 17:31:46 SimonSapin has joined #css 17:44:46 PhilCupp has joined #css 17:48:53 dbaron has joined #css 17:50:34 cabanier has joined #css 18:14:13 antonp has joined #css 18:28:45 danielfilho|w has joined #css 18:29:21 jet has joined #CSS 18:40:26 glenn has joined #css 19:06:29 cabanier has joined #css 19:22:35 Ms2ger has joined #css 19:31:48 Zakim has left #css 20:17:34 tantek has joined #css 20:45:48 shepazu has joined #css 21:29:12 jet_ has joined #CSS 22:06:25 jet has joined #CSS 22:48:41 jet_ has joined #CSS 23:12:36 isherman has joined #css 23:15:38 krijnh has joined #css 23:27:16 tantek has joined #css 23:59:19 tantek has joined #css