IRC log of css on 2012-10-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:48:29 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #css
15:48:29 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/10/17-css-irc
15:48:36 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #css
15:48:46 [plinss]
rrsagent, make logs public
15:48:52 [plinss]
zakim, this will be style
15:48:52 [Zakim]
ok, plinss; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 12 minutes
15:50:47 [jet_]
jet_ has joined #CSS
15:51:18 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:51:35 [Zakim]
+??P1
15:52:14 [Zakim]
+??P28
15:54:25 [SimonSapin]
SimonSapin has joined #css
15:55:26 [SimonSapin]
SimonSapin has joined #css
15:56:03 [Zakim]
+plinss
15:56:15 [SimonSapin]
SimonSapin has joined #css
15:57:02 [SimonSapin]
the conf call changes timezones next week, right?
15:57:19 [kenneth]
oh?
15:58:05 [Zakim]
+ +1.512.199.aaaa
15:58:35 [plinss]
zakim, aaaa is SimonSapin
15:58:35 [Zakim]
+SimonSapin; got it
15:58:57 [SimonSapin]
I think it’s noon Boston time, but there is a DST change
15:59:17 [SimonSapin]
strange, I should be calling from +33something, not +1
15:59:42 [lstorset]
lstorset has joined #css
16:00:04 [antonp]
antonp has joined #css
16:00:08 [Zakim]
+ +47.23.69.aabb
16:00:08 [Zakim]
+Stearns
16:00:09 [plinss]
zakim, ?P28 is kenneth
16:00:09 [Zakim]
sorry, plinss, I do not recognize a party named '?P28'
16:00:16 [lstorset]
Zakim, aabb is me
16:00:16 [Zakim]
+lstorset; got it
16:00:18 [rbetts]
rbetts has joined #css
16:00:20 [plinss]
zakim, P28 is kenneth
16:00:21 [Zakim]
sorry, plinss, I do not recognize a party named 'P28'
16:00:28 [oyvind]
oyvind has joined #css
16:00:37 [plinss]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:00:38 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P1, ??P28, plinss, SimonSapin, lstorset, Stearns
16:00:38 [darktears]
I believe I was the first one :) Alexis Menard :)
16:00:39 [Zakim]
+ +1.619.846.aacc
16:00:47 [kenneth]
zakim, ??P28 is kenneth
16:00:47 [Zakim]
+kenneth; got it
16:00:57 [Zakim]
+ +93550aadd
16:01:02 [antonp]
Zakim, aadd is me
16:01:02 [Zakim]
+antonp; got it
16:01:04 [plinss]
zakim, ??P1 is darktears
16:01:04 [Zakim]
+darktears; got it
16:01:48 [tantek]
tantek has joined #css
16:01:52 [Zakim]
+fantasai
16:02:24 [tantek]
Good morning. I am at a conference and will be participating by IRC only.
16:02:27 [tantek]
Zakim, +tantek
16:02:27 [Zakim]
I wonder where tantek is
16:02:32 [tantek]
:D
16:02:46 [Zakim]
-SimonSapin
16:02:49 [Zakim]
+ +1.604.312.aaee
16:02:50 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
16:02:52 [Zakim]
+ +1.415.766.aaff
16:02:57 [dbaron]
Zakim, aaff is dbaron
16:02:57 [Zakim]
+dbaron; got it
16:02:59 [koji]
zakim, [ipcaller] is me
16:02:59 [Zakim]
+koji; got it
16:03:10 [rbetts]
Zakim, aaee is me
16:03:10 [Zakim]
+rbetts; got it
16:03:31 [Zakim]
+SteveZ
16:04:19 [smfr]
smfr has joined #css
16:04:19 [antonp]
@dbaron, and the waiting is such fun. The guy doesn't like being interrupted
16:04:42 [Zakim]
+ +1.415.832.aagg
16:04:48 [Zakim]
+ +33.9.52.34.aahh
16:05:11 [Zakim]
+ +1.408.636.aaii
16:05:19 [smfr]
Zakim, aaii is me
16:05:19 [Zakim]
+smfr; got it
16:05:22 [Zakim]
+ +1.281.305.aajj
16:05:24 [smfr]
stupid zakim
16:05:33 [smfr]
someone should fix it
16:05:51 [lmclister]
lmclister has joined #css
16:06:00 [SimonSapin]
Zakim, aahh is me
16:06:00 [Zakim]
+SimonSapin; got it
16:06:03 [krit]
krit has joined #css
16:06:09 [rhauck]
rhauck has joined #css
16:06:17 [krit]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:06:18 [Zakim]
On the phone I see darktears, kenneth, plinss, lstorset, Stearns, +1.619.846.aacc, antonp, fantasai, rbetts, koji, dbaron, SteveZ, +1.415.832.aagg, SimonSapin, smfr,
16:06:21 [Zakim]
... +1.281.305.aajj
16:06:34 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
16:06:36 [krit]
Zakim, aagg is me
16:06:36 [Zakim]
+krit; got it
16:06:54 [smfr]
smfr has changed the topic to: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Oct/0459.html
16:06:56 [Zakim]
+??P84
16:07:15 [fantasai]
ScribeNick: fantasai
16:07:21 [arronei]
zakim, microsoft has me
16:07:21 [Zakim]
+arronei; got it
16:07:30 [Zakim]
-kenneth
16:07:37 [fantasai]
plinss: Additions to agenda?
16:08:09 [fantasai]
Topic: css3-conditional
16:08:54 [fantasai]
...
16:09:23 [fantasai]
fantasai: If we're treating unknown things as false, we should treat more things that are unknown as false
16:09:57 [Rossen]
Rossen has joined #css
16:10:05 [drublic]
drublic has joined #css
16:10:10 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft.a]
16:10:21 [fantasai]
fantasai: e.g. right now anything that doesn't parse as a declaration inside parens will make the whole rule invalid
16:10:28 [sylvaing]
Zakim, [Microsoft.a] has me
16:10:28 [Zakim]
+sylvaing; got it
16:10:29 [fantasai]
dbaron: I think that's fine, why would we want anything else in there
16:11:15 [fantasai]
dbaron: We are making functional notation the way for future extensibility
16:11:21 [fantasai]
fantasai: Are we sure that's how we want to do it?
16:11:31 [fantasai]
dbaron: Yes, that was why we're doing it this way.
16:11:39 [fantasai]
...
16:12:01 [fantasai]
fantasai: So, the bare parentheses is in effect a functional notation (without a name) that accepts property declarations
16:12:07 [SteveZ]
SteveZ has joined #css
16:12:17 [fantasai]
fantasai: If the contents are not a property declaraiton, the entire rule is invalid
16:12:38 [Zakim]
+??P92
16:12:39 [fantasai]
fantasai: Whereas for other functions right now, regardless of what they contain, they're as false, and do not make the entire thing invalid
16:12:45 [SteveZ]
s/raiton/ration/
16:12:47 [kenneth]
Zakim, +??P92 is me
16:12:47 [Zakim]
sorry, kenneth, I do not recognize a party named '+??P92'
16:12:51 [kenneth]
Zakim, ??P92 is me
16:12:51 [Zakim]
+kenneth; got it
16:12:56 [fantasai]
fantasai: However, suppose we introduced a function in the future that took xyz production.
16:13:14 [fantasai]
fantasai: If a stylesheet contained that function with invalid contents
16:13:38 [fantasai]
fantasai: If we followed the same pattern of making the entire rule invalid because the contents don't parse correctly
16:13:44 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: good point
16:13:49 [JohnJansen]
JohnJansen has joined #CSS
16:13:54 [fantasai]
fantasai: That would mean that old UAs would treat it as false, but new UAs would make the entire rule invalid
16:14:59 [plinss]
zakim, who is noisy?
16:15:10 [Zakim]
plinss, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: fantasai (54%), dbaron (9%)
16:15:50 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Functional notation is false no matter what it contains
16:16:30 [fantasai]
fantasai: My point is, either you are getting the weird behavior between old/new UAs that I explained OR you are treating the invalidation rules of bare parens different from functional notations, which is inconsistent.
16:17:03 [fantasai]
dbaron: It's a bit complicated, because the contents of a parentheses could either be property declaration or be a logical clause
16:17:18 [fantasai]
dbaron: I'm okay either way
16:17:23 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: I'd like to think about this a bit
16:18:23 [fantasai]
dbaron: But it would require redoing a bit of our implementation. But if we decide it's the right thing, we'll do it.
16:18:42 [fantasai]
s/weird/inconsistent/
16:18:46 [fantasai]
Topic: Text Decoration
16:18:55 [stearns]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Aug/0379.html
16:19:13 [fantasai]
http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-text-decor-3/#text-decoration-line-property
16:20:42 [fantasai]
fantasai explains the proposal
16:20:49 [fantasai]
fantasai: We're looking for feedback
16:21:10 [fantasai]
smfr: Our engineer prefers the behavior to be the same as the system text in OSX
16:21:18 [fantasai]
smfr: It's less complicated than this.
16:21:47 [fantasai]
smfr: Takes the thickest underline, and [position]
16:21:53 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft.aa]
16:22:08 [JohnJansen]
Zakim, Microsoft has JohnJansen
16:22:08 [Zakim]
+JohnJansen; got it
16:22:25 [fantasai]
smfr: An underline with a superscript or subscript span inside of it, the underline remains at the baseline, doesn't jump up
16:22:35 [fantasai]
smfr: That means subscript can draw on top of underline, and that's okay I think
16:23:06 [fantasai]
smfr: No way for strike-through to be consistent on MacOSX -- it will jump around with the font size
16:23:10 [fantasai]
smfr: Didn't test overline. Don't think we hvae it
16:23:40 [fantasai]
fantasai: One option I was considered was for strike-through to shift when the font-size changed, but not when the font changed.
16:24:33 [fantasai]
fantasai: When you have different fonts in the same size, you can get very different metrics because relationship of baseline to embox is different in different fonts
16:25:29 [fantasai]
dbaron: How do you combine that with the features in CSS3 Text that allow underlining various things that aren't text?
16:25:29 [PhilCupp]
PhilCupp has joined #css
16:25:32 [fantasai]
smfr: No idea
16:25:44 [dbaron]
(actually, I think to answer my own question: just use the element's font metrics, even if it's not text)
16:26:11 [fantasai]
smfr^: The strike-through shifts around with the font, even if the size is constant
16:26:34 [fantasai]
dbaron: Assume the first font you have is the one you're using, and use its metrics
16:26:37 [hober]
Zakim, aacc is me
16:26:37 [Zakim]
+hober; got it
16:26:51 [fantasai]
szilles: My concern is mixing Chinese and English text, will the strike-through be reasonable
16:26:55 [Zakim]
-Stearns
16:27:04 [Zakim]
+ +1.425.753.aakk
16:27:05 [fantasai]
szilles: e.g. Latin-only font for English, CJK font I only use for the Chinese
16:27:31 [arronei]
Example case: http://test.csswg.org/source/contributors/microsoft/incoming/text-decoration.htm
16:27:41 [Zakim]
+Stearns
16:27:47 [Zakim]
-Stearns
16:27:57 [fantasai]
fantasai: I think it's important that we not shift the line as the font changes. That's been a principle we've adhered to in all our text-decoration discussions in CSS
16:28:02 [Zakim]
-kenneth
16:28:44 [fantasai]
fantasai: The reason why we've always insisted on one line
16:28:55 [fantasai]
smfr: Think overline should shift with the font sizes
16:28:59 [fantasai]
smfr: ...
16:29:21 [Zakim]
+Stearns
16:29:24 [fantasai]
fantasai: The problems you have with overlining would apply to underlines if the dominant baseline were not alphabetic, e.g. using central baseline
16:30:17 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Mac's system text underline already does averaging stuff
16:30:34 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: line-through is jumpier than we'd like, should be made not jumpy across font changes
16:30:43 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: can't use it for overlines anyway
16:30:49 [Zakim]
+??P43
16:31:02 [kenneth]
Zakim, ??P43 is me
16:31:02 [Zakim]
+kenneth; got it
16:31:03 [fantasai]
szilles: Say I'm typing this stuff in. If I put a strike-through in it, would it move?
16:31:50 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: [...]
16:32:30 [fantasai]
fantasai: So, we're going to go with this, except line-throughs will recalculate whenever 'font-size' changes, but not when font face changes
16:33:34 [fantasai]
fantasai: One thing to be careful of -- the font-size-adjust property effectively changes the font size, but its intention is to equalize the visual font sizes across various font faces
16:33:44 [fantasai]
fantasai: We should only key off computed 'font-size'
16:34:22 [fantasai]
smfr asks about alphabetic underlines not responding to subscripts
16:34:33 [fantasai]
fantasai points out we're skipping any boxes that have different vertical-align
16:36:11 [fantasai]
smfr: If a line of text has two separate inline boxes, separated by some non-underlined text, would the lines have to be consistent?
16:36:32 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: No, it's only consistent if the underline originates from the same decorating box
16:36:35 [fantasai]
smfr: ...
16:36:43 [fantasai]
smfr: you want to avoid the underline jumping around through editing operations
16:37:05 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: I think we should say it's up to the editing tool, to merge underlining elements
16:37:49 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: underlining from different elements can be different colors [...]
16:38:11 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Could do averaging across line box, rather than just within fragment
16:38:29 [fantasai]
szilles: why would you necessarily want that?
16:38:39 [fantasai]
szilles: if I do make a font size change, and want the underlines to be different
16:38:54 [fantasai]
szilles: fact that they land on the same line shouldn't make them be the same
16:39:23 [fantasai]
szilles: Also, this way if someone really wants ransom-not effect, can get it by making different elements
16:39:31 [fantasai]
s/-not/-note/
16:39:42 [fantasai]
szilles: whether two elements are on the same line or not shouldn't matter
16:39:59 [dbaron]
(agreement with szilles)
16:40:03 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Ok, so we need to to revisit text to clarify it
16:40:15 [fantasai]
fantasai: and change the line-through behavior
16:41:03 [fantasai]
koji asks about why overline would be under / underline would be over
16:41:14 [fantasai]
fantasai: If we have text-underline-position: above;
16:41:26 [fantasai]
fantasai: This puts the underline on the over side
16:41:32 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: in vertical text
16:41:57 [fantasai]
fantasai: That would put the underline and overline on the same side, so we made overline also switch sides
16:42:03 [fantasai]
koji: I thought we weren't doing that
16:42:22 [fantasai]
"If this causes the underline to be drawn on the "over" side of the text, then an overline also switches sides and is drawn on the "under" side. "
16:43:00 [fantasai]
fantasai: This way if you say 'text-decoration: underline overline', you will get lines on either side of the text regardless
16:44:34 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Accept the proposed rules for line decoration averaging, but change line-throughs to recalculate whenever computed 'font-size' changes.
16:45:37 [fantasai]
Topic: UTR50
16:46:03 [Zakim]
-kenneth
16:46:19 [Zakim]
+Bert
16:46:28 [fantasai]
koji: Status is UTR#50v6 is supposed to be published
16:46:29 [dbaron]
Zakim, mute Bert
16:46:29 [Zakim]
Bert should now be muted
16:46:53 [fantasai]
koji: In the UTC rules, file is there, but it's not official
16:47:06 [fantasai]
koji: I'm requesting Eric to make it published, but not getting a response
16:47:16 [glazou]
glazou has joined #css
16:47:18 [fantasai]
koji: I am preparing v7, it's still in review
16:48:05 [fantasai]
koji: For v7, I own the text part, but the data is owned by Laurentiu at MSFT
16:48:15 [fantasai]
koji: data part is late, b/c he was off for a bit
16:48:24 [fantasai]
koji: ... text part, data part later
16:48:31 [fantasai]
koji: That's the status
16:48:57 [fantasai]
Topic: grid-layout
16:49:02 [PhilCupp]
http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-grid-layout/#changes-from-previous-version
16:49:03 [fantasai]
plinss: Request to publish updated WD
16:49:20 [fantasai]
PhilCupp: We haven't published in a while
16:49:37 [fantasai]
PhilCupp: There were 3 batches of changes, don't change anything conceptually, but syntactic things that we agreed to
16:49:51 [fantasai]
PhilCupp: Want to get a WD out before starting to work on integrating plinss's approach
16:49:54 [fantasai]
plinss: I'm fine with that
16:50:04 [SteveZ]
I am fine with that also
16:50:08 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Publish
16:50:26 [fantasai]
plinss: Plans for moving forward?
16:50:39 [fantasai]
PhilCupp: Will be in touch with Tab and fantasai to figure out what changes we want to make
16:51:02 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: I'll be working on it
16:51:19 [fantasai]
plinss: Will you be at TPAC?
16:51:20 [koji]
One correction to UTR#50 -- data is co-owned by me and Laurentiu at MSFT
16:51:36 [fantasai]
PhilCupp: No, can call in though
16:51:45 [fantasai]
plinss: BTW, our agenda looks light. Please add things to the wiki
16:52:06 [fantasai]
plinss: If have more notice ahead of time, can plan schedule better
16:52:18 [Bert]
(pointer to wiki page?)
16:52:20 [fantasai]
plinss: Also there's a W3C developer meetup on Monday night
16:52:22 [plinss]
http://www.w3.org/2012/10/TPAC/meetup-Lyon.html
16:52:29 [fantasai]
plinss: If you want to go, register soon
16:52:37 [fantasai]
http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/tpac-2012
16:52:46 [fantasai]
Topic: SVG Property review
16:53:23 [smfr]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Sep/0225.html
16:53:44 [fantasai]
dbaron: Has anyone else looked at them?
16:53:48 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: I have
16:53:59 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Just had some small comments
16:54:18 [fantasai]
dbaron: I wanted to look at something specific, but forgot what it was
16:54:22 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Was it painting order naming?
16:54:32 [fantasai]
sylvaing: I thought it was awkward too, but had no proposal to revise it
16:54:45 [fantasai]
dbaron: Maybe say we're not quite comfortable with that naming, but don't have a new proposal
16:55:32 [SteveZ]
+1 for WG position
16:55:49 [fantasai]
fantasai: seems like the WG as a whole has this opinion, so maybe send that as a WG opinion
16:56:24 [fantasai]
plinss: Ok, I'll send that feedback on behalf of the WG
16:56:52 [SimonSapin]
SimonSapin has joined #css
16:57:12 [fantasai]
Topic: logical directions
16:57:17 [fantasai]
koji: before/after vs. head/foot
16:57:35 [fantasai]
koji: Problem is i18nwg will discuss at TPAC on this topic, and hope to come up with a resolution as a WG
16:58:06 [fantasai]
koji: Since CSSWG is before i18nwg conference, I recommended individuals in the i18nwg to send comments earlier
16:58:26 [fantasai]
plinss: Daniel requested a joint meeting with i18n at TPAC
16:58:38 [fantasai]
plinss: Don't know if that will happen
16:58:54 [fantasai]
koji: Not sure if Addison wants to make this a joint topic
16:59:13 [Zakim]
-smfr
16:59:13 [Zakim]
- +1.425.753.aakk
16:59:14 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft.a]
16:59:15 [fantasai]
Meeting closed.
16:59:16 [Zakim]
-krit
16:59:17 [Zakim]
- +1.281.305.aajj
16:59:17 [Zakim]
-lstorset
16:59:17 [Zakim]
-??P84
16:59:18 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft]
16:59:18 [Zakim]
-hober
16:59:18 [Zakim]
-dbaron
16:59:18 [Zakim]
-Bert
16:59:18 [Zakim]
-plinss
16:59:19 [Zakim]
-koji
16:59:19 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft.aa]
16:59:20 [Zakim]
-Stearns
16:59:20 [Zakim]
-darktears
16:59:22 [Zakim]
-SteveZ
16:59:22 [Zakim]
-SimonSapin
16:59:23 [TabAtkins]
zakim, aajj is me
16:59:24 [Zakim]
sorry, TabAtkins, I do not recognize a party named 'aajj'
16:59:27 [Zakim]
-rbetts
16:59:28 [TabAtkins]
Dammit, too late.
16:59:36 [Zakim]
-antonp
16:59:39 [TabAtkins]
How do I tell Zakim that I attended?
17:00:26 [koji]
I guess there was a command to add attendees but don't remember
17:00:41 [Bert]
present+ Tab
17:00:48 [Bert]
But that's for rrsagent, not zakim
17:00:55 [SimonSapin]
SimonSapin has joined #css
17:01:01 [Bert]
And we rarely use rrsagent
17:02:46 [dbaron]
Zakim, aajj was TabAtkins
17:02:46 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'aajj was TabAtkins', dbaron
17:03:02 [koji]
zakim, Tab is in Style_CSS
17:03:02 [Zakim]
sorry, koji, I do not recognize a party named 'Style_CSS'
17:03:35 [TabAtkins]
Meh.
17:05:01 [Zakim]
disconnecting the lone participant, fantasai, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
17:05:02 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:05:02 [Zakim]
Attendees were plinss, +1.512.199.aaaa, SimonSapin, +47.23.69.aabb, Stearns, lstorset, +1.619.846.aacc, kenneth, +93550aadd, antonp, darktears, fantasai, +1.604.312.aaee,
17:05:02 [Zakim]
... +1.415.766.aaff, dbaron, koji, rbetts, SteveZ, +1.415.832.aagg, +33.9.52.34.aahh, +1.408.636.aaii, smfr, +1.281.305.aajj, krit, arronei, [Microsoft], sylvaing, JohnJansen,
17:05:03 [Zakim]
... hober, +1.425.753.aakk, Bert
17:05:26 [antonp]
antonp has left #css
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