14:52:29 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #prov
14:52:29 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/10/11-prov-irc
14:52:31 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:52:31 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #prov
14:52:33 <Luc> Zakim, this will be PROV 
14:52:33 <Zakim> ok, Luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
14:52:33 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 
14:52:34 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:52:34 <trackbot> Date: 11 October 2012
14:52:34 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
14:52:47 <Luc> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.10.10
14:53:47 <Luc> rrsagent, make logs public 
14:53:55 <Luc> Chair: Luc Moreau
14:54:10 <Luc> Topic: admin
14:57:24 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started
14:57:32 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:57:57 <pgroth> pgroth has joined #prov
14:58:05 <pgroth> Zakim, who is on the call?
14:58:21 <pgroth> Zakim, this will be PROV
14:58:27 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller]
14:58:35 <Zakim> ok, pgroth, I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM already started
14:58:44 <pgroth> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
14:58:44 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it
14:59:38 <Zakim> +Luc
14:59:47 <Curt> Curt has joined #prov
14:59:48 <ivan> ivan has joined #prov
14:59:52 <Zakim> +Curt_Tilmes
15:00:08 <Dong> Dong has joined #prov
15:00:31 <ivan> zakim, code?
15:00:31 <Zakim> the conference code is 7768 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ivan
15:00:36 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
15:00:42 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:00:42 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
15:00:42 <Luc> hi I am looking for a scribe, thanks
15:00:43 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
15:00:43 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
15:00:45 <Luc> hi I am looking for a scribe, thanks
15:00:59 <hook> hook has joined #prov
15:01:00 <Luc> dong?
15:01:02 <Zakim> +ivan
15:01:18 <Luc> @dong, can you scribe?
15:01:25 <satya> satya has joined #prov
15:01:38 <Zakim> +Satya_Sahoo
15:01:50 <Luc> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:01:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, Luc, Curt_Tilmes, MacTed (muted), ivan, Satya_Sahoo
15:01:59 <jcheney> jcheney has joined #prov
15:02:03 <Zakim> + +1.818.731.aaaa
15:02:20 <Luc> scribe: satya
15:02:41 <Zakim> +jcheney
15:02:42 <smiles> smiles has joined #prov
15:02:56 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:03:00 <zednik> zednik has joined #prov
15:03:31 <Zakim> +Luc.a
15:03:35 <Luc> proposed: to approve oct 04, 2012 minutes
15:03:46 <ivan> +1
15:03:49 <smiles> 0
15:03:51 <Curt> +1
15:03:53 <hook> +1
15:03:58 <Dong> @luc: sorry, just dialed in
15:04:04 <jcheney> +1
15:04:05 <Dong> +1
15:04:20 <Luc> accepted:  oct 04, 2012 minutes
15:04:38 <satya> Luc: Open Actions
15:04:46 <Zakim> +??P1
15:04:46 <ivan> issue-446?
15:04:46 <trackbot> ISSUE-446 -- prov:involvee not documented in PROV-O -- open
15:04:46 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/446
15:04:54 <satya> Luc: Action on Daniel regarding Issue 446
15:05:02 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
15:05:06 <satya> Luc: Daniel not on call
15:05:15 <satya> Luc: Action on Tim still open
15:05:27 <stephenc> stephenc has joined #prov
15:05:31 <Luc> @stian?
15:05:41 <satya> Luc: Action on Stian still open
15:05:57 <satya> Luc: Action on Paul to revise Exit criteria - completed
15:06:03 <Luc> topic: CR Exit Criteria
15:06:09 <satya> Luc: Next topic: PROV Exit Criteria
15:06:20 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvCRExitCriteria
15:06:47 <satya> Paul: New set of exit criteria proposed based on comments during last call
15:07:05 <satya> Paul: Exit criteria for PROV-O and PROV-N are same
15:07:23 <Luc> 'provenance feature' ? is same as 'feature'?
15:07:26 <satya> Paul: Reviewing the exit criteria points
15:07:34 <ivan> q+
15:08:36 <Luc> q?
15:08:41 <satya> Paul: Notes at the end of the page describes the type of implementations 
15:09:38 <satya> Paul: Features for models in the implementation are concepts in PROV-O and constraints in PROV-Constraints
15:10:03 <Luc> q?
15:10:08 <satya> Paul: Evidence to illustrate that the conceptual model was useful for the implementation
15:10:12 <Luc> ack iv
15:10:44 <satya> Ivan: Clarify that two implementations should be independent (not from same department etc.)
15:11:19 <satya> Luc: Developing two toolboxes - would they qualify to be independent?
15:11:31 <pgroth> +Q
15:11:32 <Luc> q?
15:11:39 <satya> Ivan: Depends on the relation between the toolbox and the implementation
15:12:37 <satya> Paul: Downloaded the toolbox from Luc at VU Amsterdam - modified by student, does this qualify? 
15:12:58 <Luc> it is your student who decide which feature to use, and not the toolbox!
15:13:06 <jun> jun has joined #prov
15:13:30 <satya> Ivan: Depends on the type of modifications
15:13:58 <Zakim> +??P27
15:14:02 <Luc> q?
15:14:06 <Luc> ack pg
15:14:12 <satya> Ivan: The W3C directors need to be convinced regarding independence of the implementations
15:14:37 <hook> +q
15:14:49 <satya> Luc: Confusing to use different terms - use "feature" consistently
15:14:52 <satya> Paul: Agree
15:15:05 <zednik> q+
15:15:17 <satya> Luc: Relevant to distinguish between types of implementations
15:15:30 <satya> Paul: Already cover that in the questionaire
15:15:54 <Luc> ack hook
15:15:55 <hook> http://semanticweb.org/wiki/RDFReactor
15:16:19 <pgroth> that's definitely an implemenatiaon
15:16:52 <satya> Hook: Leveraged a tool to auto-generate provenance trace(?) - clarify if it is an implementation or data mining app?
15:17:07 <satya> Paul: It should qualify as an implementation
15:17:29 <Luc> q?
15:17:46 <Luc> is there a requirement to make the code available?
15:17:55 <Zakim> + +1.713.754.aabb
15:18:00 <pgroth> no
15:18:03 <Luc> ok
15:18:12 <SamCoppens> SamCoppens has joined #prov
15:18:14 <pgroth> the only thing is that you right a report
15:18:22 <pgroth> s/right/write/
15:18:30 <Luc> q?
15:18:32 <CraigTrim> CraigTrim has joined #PROV
15:18:37 <satya> Hook: The implementation ensures that the traces are PROV-O compliant
15:19:26 <pgroth> +q
15:19:27 <satya> Stephan: Add a point to questionaire to describe the tool used in the implementation
15:19:32 <Luc> q?
15:19:33 <satya> Luc: Agree
15:19:35 <Luc> ack ze
15:20:11 <Luc> ack pg
15:20:40 <satya> Paul: Do we have question in questionaire to explicitly describe use of PROV?
15:20:51 <SamCoppens> SamCoppens has left #prov
15:21:18 <satya> Luc: What is evidence of the conceptual model being helpful
15:21:35 <Luc> q?
15:21:59 <satya> Paul: Self-reported description in the implementation documentation
15:22:03 <satya> Luc: What is the next step?
15:22:52 <satya> Paul: Up for discussion till next telcon
15:23:24 <satya> Paul: Dong will have example documentation for submission process of implementations
15:23:44 <satya> Luc: What documentation needs to be created?
15:24:02 <satya> Ivan: Current documentation/wiki by Paul is fine
15:24:06 <hook> regarding decoupling models being helpful: the ISO community also takes this approach of decoupling models from encodings. has been quite useful, particularly for ISO 19115:2003 Geographic information -- Metadata  http://www.iso.org/iso/catalogue_detail.htm?csnumber=26020
15:24:27 <satya> Luc: Cataloging of test cases
15:24:33 <Dong> The draft test process here: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/testcases/constraints/process.html
15:25:29 <satya> Paul: Dong has set of test cases available on web site - implementation will output text file, which will be evaluated (pass/fail)
15:25:38 <Luc> q?
15:25:40 <pgroth> thanks Dong!
15:26:09 <satya> Luc: Is this approach used only for constraints?
15:26:30 <Luc> q?
15:26:36 <satya> Paul: Yes, for other features we will use Stephan's questionnaire
15:27:02 <pgroth> other than me and you
15:27:03 <pgroth> ?
15:27:03 <satya> Luc: Feedback from implementors of constraints?
15:27:12 <jcheney> not sure i'll have time, paolo is interested
15:27:34 <jcheney> reza had mentioned at f2f3 that oracle is interested; his recent email seems to back this up
15:27:43 <jun> q+
15:27:45 <satya> Luc: Concerned that WG may not have enough implementations
15:27:46 <pgroth> +q
15:28:06 <Luc> q?
15:28:41 <Luc> ack jun
15:28:56 <satya> Jun: Has implemented some of the constraints - uses SPARQL queries to create collection of test cases for identifying violations of constraints
15:29:07 <pgroth> yes
15:29:15 <CraigTrim> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:29:15 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, Luc, Curt_Tilmes, MacTed (muted), ivan, Satya_Sahoo, +1.818.731.aaaa, jcheney, [IPcaller], Luc.a, ??P1, [IPcaller.a], ??P27, +1.713.754.aabb
15:29:31 <pgroth> good point
15:29:38 <jun> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/testcases/constraints/process.html
15:29:48 <satya> Jun: Not sure about some of the points in Table 2 of constraint testing process
15:30:08 <CraigTrim> CraigTrim: zakim, I am aabb
15:30:15 <CraigTrim> zakim, I am aabb
15:30:15 <Zakim> +CraigTrim; got it
15:30:19 <Luc> shouldn't identifiers be uris?
15:30:31 <satya> Paul: Agree, some of the points need to be reviewed
15:30:45 <Dong> Thanks Paul
15:30:57 <Luc> q?
15:31:14 <Dong> The 2nd column is meant to list the constraints each test case cover
15:31:33 <satya> Luc: Need to clarify the naming issue (?)
15:31:59 <pgroth> @jun excited that you are doing the constraints
15:32:00 <Luc> q?
15:32:05 <Luc> ack pg
15:32:36 <satya> Paul: Do not intend to implement all the constraints
15:32:56 <Luc> q?
15:32:57 <Dong> BTW, building a complete test suite takes significant effort, I'd like to invite anyone who has constructed test cases for constraints to share them with the group
15:32:59 <satya> Paul: Hence, need more implementors
15:33:25 <satya> Jun: Implementation is in context of the Workflow4Ever project
15:33:47 <pgroth> ack
15:33:49 <pgroth> sorry
15:33:56 <hook> hook has joined #prov
15:34:01 <Luc> q?
15:34:05 <satya> Luc: Review the document and provide feedback
15:34:10 <Luc> topic: prov-dm issues
15:34:18 <satya> Luc: Next item: PROV-DM issues
15:34:47 <Luc> ISSUE-530, ISSUE-520,  ISSUE-522, ISSUE-509, ISSUE-526, ISSUE-502
15:34:56 <satya> Luc: all feedback have been incorporated, confirm that the group is happy with the following issues:
15:35:17 <ivan> ISSUE-530?
15:35:17 <trackbot> ISSUE-530 -- Data Model Section 5.7.2 (Table 6) -- open
15:35:17 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/530
15:35:22 <ivan> Issue-520?
15:35:22 <trackbot> ISSUE-520 -- Data Model Section 5.3.1 -- open
15:35:22 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/520
15:35:29 <ivan> ISSUE-522?
15:35:29 <trackbot> ISSUE-522 -- Data Model Section 5.3.4 -- open
15:35:29 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/522
15:35:37 <ivan> ISSue-509?
15:35:37 <trackbot> ISSUE-509 -- Data Model Figure 5 -- open
15:35:37 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/509
15:35:41 <ivan> Issue-526?
15:35:41 <trackbot> ISSUE-526 -- Data Model Section 5.5.2 -- open
15:35:41 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/526
15:35:46 <ivan> issue-502?
15:35:46 <trackbot> ISSUE-502 -- Data Model Section 2.1.2 -- open
15:35:46 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/502
15:35:57 <satya> Luc: Confirm there is agreement on this issues
15:36:37 <satya> Simon: Yes
15:36:47 <Luc> proposed: ISSUE-530, ISSUE-520,  ISSUE-522, ISSUE-509, ISSUE-526, ISSUE-502 are confirmed to be resolved
15:37:02 <jcheney> +1
15:37:02 <smiles> +1
15:37:03 <ivan> +1
15:37:09 <Dong> +1
15:37:23 <zednik> +1
15:37:27 <jun> +1
15:37:31 <MacTed> +1
15:37:42 <Luc> accepted: ISSUE-530, ISSUE-520,  ISSUE-522, ISSUE-509, ISSUE-526, ISSUE-502 are confirmed to be resolved
15:37:54 <Luc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2012Oct/0051.html
15:37:59 <satya> Luc: Next item: Normative sections in PROV-DM
15:38:11 <Luc> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/diff/998d228b4a8e/model/prov-dm.html
15:38:53 <satya> Luc: Introduced a new section on compliance in the document and identifies normative sections
15:39:07 <Luc> q?
15:39:51 <satya> Luc: Should Appendix A be normative?
15:39:59 <Luc> q?
15:40:01 <ivan> q+
15:40:19 <satya> Ivan: This should be normative
15:40:23 <Luc> q?
15:40:37 <Luc> ack iv
15:40:38 <pgroth> q+ to ask about namespace
15:40:43 <ivan> ack ivan 
15:40:50 <jcheney> q+
15:40:59 <satya> Paul: Should namespace be normative?
15:41:04 <satya> Luc: It is
15:41:08 <ivan> ack pgroth 
15:41:08 <Zakim> pgroth, you wanted to ask about namespace
15:41:24 <pgroth> 5.74
15:41:26 <pgroth> got it
15:42:06 <Luc> ack jc
15:42:10 <Luc> q?
15:42:10 <pgroth> q+
15:42:14 <satya> James: Not sure if the table is enough to ensure that users are following it
15:42:36 <satya> Ivan: The documents (PROV-O) have the details
15:42:48 <Dong> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/prov-dm.html#cross-references-to-prov-o-and-prov-n
15:44:34 <satya> James: What instructions are present for implementors?
15:45:00 <satya> Ivan: No users will implement the mappings
15:45:18 <satya> James: Ok, was just wondering if there are additional requirements for implementation
15:45:23 <satya> Ivan: No
15:45:24 <pgroth> q+
15:45:40 <pgroth> q+
15:45:59 <satya> Luc: Table is relevant for mapping from one serialization to another
15:46:14 <satya> Ivan: Yes (should not be present in the exit criteria)
15:46:24 <jcheney> OK, so I'm happy with "this table is the starting point", as long as it's clear that it's not (meant to be) a complete spec of the mapping
15:47:00 <jcheney> Perhaps PROV-XML should have such a table too if it doesn't already
15:47:04 <satya> Paul: Having this section as normative helps the users
15:47:09 <Luc> proposed: to accept the split normative/informative in the current editor's draft of prov-dm
15:47:12 <ivan> +1 to James
15:47:13 <ivan> +1
15:47:15 <jcheney> +1
15:47:15 <satya> +1
15:47:28 <Curt> +1
15:47:30 <Dong> +1
15:47:31 <pgroth> +1
15:47:32 <CraigTrim> +1
15:47:37 <MacTed> +1
15:47:48 <zednik> +1
15:48:00 <Luc> accepted:  the split normative/informative in the current editor's draft of prov-dm
15:48:14 <satya> Ivan/Luc: Have a mapping table in PROV-XML
15:48:36 <ivan> great satya 
15:49:00 <Luc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2012Oct/0050.html
15:49:11 <satya> Paul: Updates on the DC and XML in the mailing list
15:49:32 <Luc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2012Sep/0109.html
15:49:36 <Luc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2012Sep/0113.html
15:49:44 <pgroth> @Curt/hook/stephan - can you send a brief update on the list on the status of xml?
15:49:45 <Luc> ISSUE-519 and ISSUE-523 (Influence Inheritance) 
15:49:52 <satya> Luc: Next item: Original issues raised by Robert
15:50:56 <Zakim> - +1.818.731.aaaa
15:52:08 <satya> Luc: Discussing the raised issue, added an extra table for the relations (influencer and influencee)
15:52:09 <Luc> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/diff/9fb92e012cec/model/prov-dm.html
15:52:18 <Luc> q?
15:52:19 <pgroth> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/b276b292cd9d/model/prov-dm.html#component3
15:52:29 <Luc> ack pg
15:53:24 <pgroth> q+ 
15:53:45 <satya> Luc: Early feedback can be incorporated before next review
15:54:12 <pgroth> ack pgroth 
15:54:53 <Luc> wasDerivedFrom(e2,e1)  implies wasInfluencedBy(e2,e1)
15:55:11 <ivan> q+
15:55:28 <pgroth> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/b276b292cd9d/model/prov-dm.html#mapping-relations-to-influence-table
15:56:48 <satya> Ivan: This is basically a subPropertyOf correspondence between the properties
15:56:54 <Luc> q?
15:56:57 <Luc> ack ivan
15:56:57 <satya> Luc: Yes
15:56:59 <ivan> ack ivan 
15:57:12 <satya> Luc: Feedback on the proposal
15:57:27 <ivan> q+
15:57:50 <satya> Ivan: Is this an editorial change for clarification
15:57:53 <satya> Luc: Yes
15:58:13 <Luc> q?
15:58:16 <Luc> ack iva
15:58:38 <Luc> topic: prov-xml
15:58:46 <satya> Luc: Next item: PROV-XML
15:58:48 <pgroth> next week
15:59:41 <satya> Stephan: Discussed feedback from implementations (e.g. Luc) and updated schema
16:00:25 <satya> Stephan: Created tools to build automated html pages from concepts descriptions (?)
16:00:46 <satya> Stephan: Updates based on feedback progressing smoothly
16:01:16 <Luc> q?
16:01:48 <ivan> thanks to all, bye
16:01:52 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
16:01:53 <jun> bye
16:01:54 <Zakim> -ivan
16:01:55 <Zakim> -CraigTrim
16:01:56 <Zakim> -??P27
16:01:59 <Dong> thanks, bye
16:01:59 <Zakim> -Curt_Tilmes
16:01:59 <jcheney> bye
16:02:00 <Zakim> -MacTed
16:02:00 <Zakim> -Satya_Sahoo
16:02:03 <Zakim> -jcheney
16:02:06 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.a]
16:02:18 <Zakim> -??P1
16:02:26 <Zakim> -pgroth
16:02:29 <Zakim> -Luc
16:02:40 <Luc> rrsagent, set log public 
16:02:44 <Luc> rrsagent, draft minutes 
16:02:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/11-prov-minutes.html Luc
16:02:47 <Luc> trackbot, end telcon 
16:02:47 <trackbot> Sorry, Luc, I don't understand 'trackbot, end telcon '. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
16:02:50 <Zakim> -Luc.a
16:02:52 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has ended
16:02:52 <Zakim> Attendees were pgroth, Luc, Curt_Tilmes, MacTed, ivan, Satya_Sahoo, +1.818.731.aaaa, jcheney, [IPcaller], +1.713.754.aabb, CraigTrim
16:04:09 <hook> hook has joined #prov
18:21:50 <Zakim> Zakim has left #prov