IRC log of css on 2012-10-10

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:16:01 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #css
15:16:01 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/10/10-css-irc
15:16:07 [glazou]: Zakim, this will be Style
15:16:07 [Zakim]: ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 44 minutes
15:16:12 [glazou]: RRSAgent, make logs public
15:36:11 [jet]: jet has joined #CSS
15:45:56 [nimbu]: nimbu has joined #css
15:50:21 [krit]: krit has joined #css
15:55:56 [tantek]: tantek has joined #css
15:57:04 [Zakim]: Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:57:10 [Zakim]: +??P7
15:57:15 [glazou]: Zakim, ??7 is me
15:57:15 [Zakim]: sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named '??7'
15:57:25 [glazou]: Zakim, ??P7 is me
15:57:25 [Zakim]: +glazou; got it
15:57:34 [lstorset]: lstorset has joined #css
15:57:43 [Zakim]: +lstorset
15:58:38 [Zakim]: + +1.415.615.aaaa
15:58:40 [rbetts]: rbetts has joined #css
15:58:54 [rhauck]: rhauck has joined #css
15:59:01 [glazou]: Zakim, aaaa is rhauck
15:59:21 [Zakim]: +hober
15:59:25 [Zakim]: +rhauck; got it
15:59:29 [Zakim]: +krit
15:59:42 [Zakim]: +arron
15:59:44 [Zakim]: +Brian_Leroux
15:59:58 [rbetts]: Zakim, Brian_Leroux is rbetts
16:00:03 [Zakim]: +rbetts; got it
16:00:35 [tantek]: good morning
16:00:38 [oyvind]: oyvind has joined #css
16:00:45 [Zakim]: +Stearns
16:00:49 [glazou]: hi tantek
16:01:52 [JohnJansen]: JohnJansen has joined #CSS
16:01:55 [Zakim]: +SylvaIng
16:02:16 [SimonSapin1]: SimonSapin1 has joined #css
16:02:38 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft]
16:02:45 [JohnJansen]: Zakim, Microsoft has JohnJansen
16:02:45 [Zakim]: +JohnJansen; got it
16:02:56 [antonp]: antonp has joined #css
16:03:18 [Zakim]: + +34.93.550.aabb
16:03:23 [Zakim]: +??P50
16:03:25 [antonp]: Zakim, aabb is me
16:03:25 [Zakim]: +antonp; got it
16:03:32 [glazou]: regrets: florian, dbaron, Chris, kenneth
16:03:35 [Zakim]: + +1.650.253.aacc
16:03:42 [glazou]: Regrets: +Bert
16:03:42 [TabAtkins]: zakim, aacc is me
16:03:42 [Zakim]: +TabAtkins; got it
16:03:49 [Zakim]: +SimonSapin
16:03:54 [Zakim]: + +1.415.871.aadd
16:04:04 [tantek]: zakim, aadd is tantek
16:04:05 [Zakim]: +tantek; got it
16:04:07 [smfr]: smfr has joined #css
16:04:10 [tantek]: hello :)
16:04:17 [tantek]: zakim, mute tantek
16:04:17 [Zakim]: tantek should now be muted
16:04:44 [Zakim]: +smfr
16:05:10 [glazou]: Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:05:10 [Zakim]: On the phone I see glazou, lstorset, rhauck, hober, krit, arron, rbetts, Stearns, SylvaIng, [Microsoft], antonp, ??P50, TabAtkins, SimonSapin, tantek (muted), smfr
16:05:14 [Zakim]: [Microsoft] has JohnJansen
16:05:16 [glazou]: Regrets: +plinss
16:05:49 [glazou]: ok
16:05:52 [glazou]: Regrets: +Lea
16:06:04 [TabAtkins]: ScribeNick: TabAtkins
16:06:36 [TabAtkins]: glazou: First item, taking CSS3 Conditional to LC.
16:06:43 [Zakim]: +SteveZ
16:07:38 [TabAtkins]: TabAtkins: A few weeks ago I put up a list of the last few issues in the Conditional draft.
16:07:50 [TabAtkins]: TabAtkins: I resolved two of them, and the remaining two are just "punt stuff to level 4".
16:08:31 [Zakim]: +fantasai
16:08:43 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
16:08:54 [koji]: zakim, [ipcaller] is me
16:08:54 [Zakim]: +koji; got it
16:09:05 [TabAtkins]: SimonSapin: I had an issue about allowing functions int he grammar for future compat.
16:09:09 [glazou]: sylvaing: LOL
16:09:14 [TabAtkins]: TabAtkins: Done now, and dbaron approved it. It's in the at-risk list.
16:09:48 [TabAtkins]: RESOLVED: Publish CSS3 Conditional as LCWD.
16:10:00 [lmclister]: lmclister has joined #css
16:10:07 [lmclister]: lmclister has left #css
16:10:12 [TabAtkins]: fantasai: As part of this resolution, we're dropping the @import addition and @document to the next level?
16:10:15 [TabAtkins]: TabAtkins: Yup.
16:10:26 [lmclister]: lmclister has joined #css
16:11:20 [fantasai]: RESOLVED: Drop @document
16:11:39 [fantasai]: RESOLVED: Defer issue on @import syntax for @supports queries
16:11:45 [glazou]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Aug/0379.html
16:11:46 [TabAtkins]: Topic: text-decoration
16:11:50 [TabAtkins]: fantasai: I don't have a writeup yet.
16:11:54 [TabAtkins]: glazou: So defer it again?
16:11:58 [nimbu]: nimbu has joined #css
16:12:01 [TabAtkins]: smfr: I don't have feedback yet either.
16:12:03 [glazou]: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2012OctDec/0025.html
16:12:06 [TabAtkins]: Topic: 'clip' property
16:12:19 [TabAtkins]: krit: Should we combine 'clip' with the other clip/mask properties into the Masking spec?
16:12:43 [TabAtkins]: krit: I think it makes sense to have them in one collection, and makes the merging of SVG and HTML easier with one description in one place.
16:13:03 [krit]: Adding links:
16:13:04 [krit]: http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/masking.html#OverflowAndClipProperties
16:13:06 [fantasai]: RESOLVED: Accept functional notation in place of property-value support queries, treat unknown functions as false, all functions unknown in L1
16:13:10 [fantasai]: s/L1/L3/
16:13:23 [krit]: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/tip/masking/index.html
16:15:12 [fantasai]: ^ and mark that behavior at-risk
16:15:18 [TabAtkins]: [discussion about priority of Masking]
16:15:32 [tantek]: TabAtkins: don't need to worry about priority list unless we are worried about running out time in terms of things to talk about.
16:15:34 [TabAtkins]: szilles: If it didn't go into Masking, where would you put an updated version?
16:16:27 [Zakim]: -arron
16:16:37 [glazou]: guys at MSFT , we still need YOUR answers so stop ranting :-D
16:16:41 [TabAtkins]: rossen: Wasn't there discussion about moving 'clip' closer to the esclusion shapes?
16:16:57 [TabAtkins]: krit: Yeah, there's an issue about using those shape functions.
16:16:59 [arron]: arron has joined #css
16:17:11 [tantek]: lol
16:17:12 [Ms2ger]: Ms2ger has joined #css
16:17:14 [glazou]: sylvaing: please _send_ it
16:17:54 [TabAtkins]: rossen: I was just wondering if that might be a more natural place for it.
16:18:16 [TabAtkins]: TabAtkins: I think that it makes the most sense for 'clip' to go in with the rest of Masking, though it will probably want to reference Shapes.
16:18:20 [TabAtkins]: glazou: Any objection?
16:18:29 [TabAtkins]: RESOLVED: Put 'clip' into the Masking spec.
16:18:36 [glazou]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Oct/0118.html
16:18:51 [TabAtkins]: Topic: marker-side vs marker-direction
16:19:09 [TabAtkins]: fantasai: Nothing to discuss about that yet.
16:19:11 [glazou]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Oct/0173.html
16:19:17 [stearns]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Oct/0268.html
16:19:19 [TabAtkins]: Topic: Circular dependencies between flows
16:19:25 [TabAtkins]: stearns: I just sent a reply to the list about what to do.
16:19:36 [TabAtkins]: stearns: The question is, when a circular reference occurs, what happens?
16:19:41 [TabAtkins]: stearns: And what to do when it happens.
16:19:46 [TabAtkins]: stearns: So I suggest just avoiding them entirely.
16:20:08 [TabAtkins]: stearns: If you have a circular reference, the entire cycle doesn't become regions.
16:20:22 [TabAtkins]: TabAtkins: I agree - that's how I've dealt with other places where I have to track circular references.
16:20:39 [TabAtkins]: antonp: What's the effect on the content forced into that flow?
16:21:05 [TabAtkins]: stearns: If you ahve content using flow-to, and have a flow-from producing a circular ref, that flow-form is just ignored.
16:21:27 [TabAtkins]: antonp: And if that's the only flow-from consuming that flow, it's just ignored, because it's piped into a flow that's never consumed. That's expected behavior.
16:21:31 [TabAtkins]: stearns: Yes.
16:21:47 [glazou]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Oct/0163.html
16:21:53 [TabAtkins]: Topic: baselines of inline-blocks
16:22:17 [TabAtkins]: antonp: This was raised by someone saying there was a gap about the fact that css3 specs expect everything to have a baseline.
16:22:26 [TabAtkins]: antonp: But 2.1 doesn't provide a baseline for some things, like blocks and tables.
16:22:57 [TabAtkins]: antonp: To solve an issue specific to Flexbox, Tab put in a note in Flexbox specificying those.
16:23:03 [TabAtkins]: antonp: But I think it's worthwhile to codify that.
16:23:14 [fantasai]: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-flexbox/#flex-baselines
16:23:20 [TabAtkins]: antonp: The proposal is that tables have baselines, but that doesn't contribute toward an inline-block's baseline.
16:23:35 [TabAtkins]: antonp: So if a table is in an inline-block, the table doesn't contribute - it's skipped over during inline-block baseline determination.
16:24:05 [TabAtkins]: TabAtkins: Yes, we need a reasonable baseline for other things, but for legacy reasons inline-blocks need to ignore them.
16:24:34 [TabAtkins]: antonp: So Tab's basically saying, just, can we ignore the table's own baseline when determining the inline-block's baseline?
16:24:48 [TabAtkins]: antonp: I think it's reasonable. What do others think?
16:24:48 [Zakim]: -SteveZ
16:25:33 [Zakim]: +SteveZ
16:25:39 [TabAtkins]: TabAtkins: I expect it'll need some more review, but we can at least put it somewhere normative and get it moving.
16:25:54 [TabAtkins]: RESOLVED: Accept the definitions for additional baselines ni the Flexbox spec.
16:26:06 [fantasai]: for 2.1?
16:26:08 [TabAtkins]: Topic: circular refs in regions
16:26:38 [TabAtkins]: stearns: My proposal addresses the case where an element has the same flow in its flow-from and flow-to. But it doesn't address cycles *between* elements.
16:27:24 [TabAtkins]: TabAtkins: Unclear about how to detect circular references, or how to react to cycles once detected?
16:27:27 [TabAtkins]: stearns: How to specify.
16:27:39 [TabAtkins]: TabAtkins: I have an example already in Images 4 - look in element(). You can just copy that.
16:27:46 [TabAtkins]: glazou: So how to respond?
16:28:00 [TabAtkins]: stearns: [something that I missed about breaking one of the refs to avoid a cycle]
16:28:34 [TabAtkins]: antonp: Is all of that something that can be calculated just from the style rules? No layout needed?
16:28:45 [TabAtkins]: stearns: Yes, it's all just looking at flow-to/from properties.
16:29:12 [tantek]: reminder: TPAC coming up
16:29:44 [tantek]: http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/tpac-2012
16:29:49 [TabAtkins]: glazou: Reminder - sign up for TPAC - the fee goes up substantially soon.
16:29:53 [tantek]: http://www.w3.org/2012/10/TPAC/
16:29:57 [TabAtkins]: glazou: Also, put topics up on the wiki for the call.
16:30:08 [TabAtkins]: fantasai: I have a quick issue about i18n.
16:30:25 [TabAtkins]: fantasai: They'd like to take over the @counter-style list beyond what we resolved to keep in Counter STyles.
16:30:51 [tantek]: looks like a lot of folks are attending: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/TPAC2012/registrants#CSS (member only link)
16:30:58 [TabAtkins]: TabAtkins: I'm totally for this - it means someone who knows a lot more about me is taking care of these things.
16:31:09 [tantek]: and getting something off your plate Tab!
16:31:12 [TabAtkins]: RESOLVED: Let i18n maintain the additional @counter-style rules.
16:31:34 [TabAtkins]: fantasai: Also, they're meeting Thu/Fri. We should check if there are more topics to discuss with them than just case-sensitivity.
16:31:45 [TabAtkins]: szilles: Would some of them be able to show up on Tuesday and be part of our discussion?
16:31:53 [TabAtkins]: fantasai: Dunno. But there will be some who are there earlier.
16:32:08 [TabAtkins]: glazou: I'll ping the i18nWG and ask.
16:32:13 [Zakim]: -antonp
16:32:22 [TabAtkins]: fantasai: Another topic is, what's the status of TTA? Progress? Issues to discuss?
16:32:54 [TabAtkins]: smfr: Dirk and I briefly looked at the remaining Transforms issues. We'll ahve a conf call with some people about them next week, so we'll hopefully have some issues to add to the agenda.
16:33:24 [TabAtkins]: fantasai: Simon had an issue on the multicol module that we didn't address last week.
16:33:41 [TabAtkins]: SimonSapin: I was working through a reply to Hakon, because he seems to have a response to some things that I didn't understand.
16:34:11 [TabAtkins]: fantasai: On that topic, Tab and I spent yesterday writing out the intrinsic sizing definitions for multicol elements. This is significantly different from what Hakon thinks it should be, I think.
16:34:35 [TabAtkins]: fantasai: dholbert brought up an example related to Flexbox, and that guided our ideas.
16:34:41 [TabAtkins]: SimonSapin: Do you think that should go in Sizing?
16:34:53 [fantasai]: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-sizing/#multicol-intrinsic
16:34:55 [TabAtkins]: fantasai: I think so, yeah - multicol is in CR. Sizing is already taking other things from 2.1.
16:35:06 [fantasai]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Oct/0017.html
16:35:26 [fantasai]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Oct/0225.html
16:35:57 [TabAtkins]: fantasai: The point is that there is no definition of these sizing things in Multicol, and the expectation that they size the same as a regular block element does not work.
16:36:13 [TabAtkins]: SimonSapin: And if we just remove the lines from the multicol module, and define this in Sizing, this is fine with me.
16:36:20 [TabAtkins]: fantasai: I agree with your suggested changes.
16:36:22 [fantasai]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Oct/0226.html
16:36:44 [TabAtkins]: fantasai: I think we should resolve to take the changes that Simon suggested.
16:36:51 [TabAtkins]: fantasai: We'd also need to change a couple of the terms in the algorithm.
16:36:58 [TabAtkins]: glazou: Did Hakon have a chance to review this?
16:37:09 [TabAtkins]: TabAtkins: No, we just did it late yesterday.
16:37:20 [TabAtkins]: glazou: I suggest we ask for feedback from Hakon.
16:37:26 [TabAtkins]: fantasai: The changes are in the email I just linked to.
16:38:02 [Zakim]: -SteveZ
16:38:03 [Zakim]: -SylvaIng
16:38:03 [TabAtkins]: glazou: Okay, out of topics. Call adjourned.
16:38:04 [Zakim]: -glazou
16:38:04 [Zakim]: -??P50
16:38:06 [Zakim]: -rbetts
16:38:06 [Zakim]: -rhauck
16:38:06 [Zakim]: -smfr
16:38:08 [Zakim]: -koji
16:38:11 [Zakim]: -krit
16:38:13 [Zakim]: -hober
16:38:15 [Zakim]: -TabAtkins
16:38:16 [Zakim]: -fantasai
16:38:19 [Zakim]: -tantek
16:38:21 [Zakim]: -SimonSapin
16:38:23 [Zakim]: -Stearns
16:38:25 [Zakim]: -lstorset
16:38:27 [Zakim]: Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
16:38:29 [Zakim]: Attendees were glazou, lstorset, +1.415.615.aaaa, hober, rhauck, krit, arron, rbetts, Stearns, SylvaIng, JohnJansen, +34.93.550.aabb, antonp, +1.650.253.aacc, TabAtkins,
16:38:31 [Zakim]: ... SimonSapin, +1.415.871.aadd, tantek, smfr, SteveZ, fantasai, koji
16:39:03 [smfr]: smfr has left #css
16:39:15 [oyvind]: oyvind has left #css
16:43:40 [nimbu]: nimbu has joined #css
16:45:13 [SimonSapin1]: SimonSapin1 has joined #css
16:56:33 [rhauck]: rhauck has joined #css
17:09:28 [krit1]: krit1 has joined #css
17:43:35 [SimonSapin]: SimonSapin has joined #css
17:49:38 [lstorset]: lstorset has joined #css
17:55:42 [leaverou]: krit: hober: krit1: I mean webplatform.org :)
17:55:56 [krit1]: leaverou: ;)
17:56:15 [isherman]: isherman has joined #css
18:03:06 [rhauck1]: rhauck1 has joined #css
18:03:59 [rhauck2]: rhauck2 has joined #css
18:04:44 [cali]: cali has joined #css
18:05:42 [cabanier]: cabanier has joined #css
18:07:12 [lmclister1]: lmclister1 has joined #css
18:35:41 [tantek_]: tantek_ has joined #css
18:38:33 [drublic]: drublic has joined #css
18:48:42 [rhauck]: rhauck has joined #css
18:49:53 [nimbu]: nimbu has joined #css
18:53:18 [rhauck]: rhauck has left #css
18:54:02 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #css
19:49:24 [nimbu]: nimbu has joined #css
20:40:01 [tantek]: tantek has joined #css
21:31:08 [lmclister]: lmclister has joined #css
21:47:01 [lar_zzz]: lar_zzz has joined #css
21:49:03 [drublic]: drublic has joined #css
22:16:25 [antonp]: antonp has joined #css
22:19:44 [tantek]: tantek has joined #css
22:34:35 [nimbu]: nimbu has joined #css
23:03:05 [lmclister]: lmclister has joined #css
23:14:13 [tantek]: tantek has joined #css
23:29:45 [tantek_]: tantek_ has joined #css
23:32:39 [stearns]: I have an issue in CSS Regions on circular normative references - is it bad that CSS Regions refers to CSS Break which refers to CSS Regions?