IRC log of xproc on 2012-10-04

Timestamps are in UTC.

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14:01:11 [Norm]
Meeting: XML Processing Model WG
14:01:11 [Norm]
Date: 4 Oct 2012
14:01:11 [Norm]
14:01:11 [Norm]
Meeting: 220
14:01:11 [Norm]
Chair: Norm
14:01:13 [Norm]
Scribe: Norm
14:01:15 [Norm]
ScribeNick: norm
14:01:27 [Norm]
zakim, passcode?
14:01:36 [Zakim]
sorry, Norm, I don't know what conference this is
14:01:44 [Norm]
zakim, this is xproc
14:01:50 [Zakim]
ok, Norm; that matches XML_PMWG()10:00AM
14:01:57 [Norm]
zakim, who's here?
14:02:04 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Jeroen, Alex_Milows, Norm
14:02:11 [Vojtech]
zakim, jeroen is me
14:02:17 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, alexmilowski, Vojtech, jfuller, Norm, ht_home, Liam
14:02:20 [Zakim]
+Vojtech; got it
14:03:32 [Zakim]
+ +1.778.440.aaaa
14:05:25 [Norm]
zakim, aaa is Murray
14:05:27 [Zakim]
sorry, Norm, I do not recognize a party named 'aaa'
14:05:31 [Norm]
zakim, aaa ais Murray
14:05:31 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'aaa ais Murray', Norm
14:05:35 [Norm]
zakim, aaaa is Murray
14:05:35 [Zakim]
+Murray; got it
14:05:40 [Norm]
zakim, who's here?
14:05:40 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Vojtech, Alex_Milows, Norm, Murray
14:05:41 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, alexmilowski, Vojtech, jfuller, Norm, ht_home, Liam
14:06:58 [Zakim]
14:07:20 [Norm]
zakim, ??p46 is ht_home
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+ht_home; got it
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ht has joined #xproc
14:07:52 [Norm]
Topic: Accept this agenda?
14:07:52 [Norm]
14:08:08 [Norm]
14:08:15 [Norm]
Topic: Accept minutes from the previous meeting?
14:08:15 [Norm]
14:08:24 [Norm]
14:08:29 [Norm]
Topic: Next meeting: telcon 11 Oct
14:08:40 [Norm]
No regrets heard.
14:08:49 [Norm]
Alex gives regrets.
14:09:06 [Norm]
Topic: Review of action items
14:10:25 [Norm]
A-210-01: Completed
14:10:55 [Norm]
No other progress reported.
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Topic: Short list of items for
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Norm gives brief review of email thread.
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Alex: Are we still XProc if we allow non-XML through the pipeline.
14:13:38 [Norm]
Norm: It doesn't worry me.
14:14:27 [jfuller]
coming, telephone difficulties
14:14:34 [Norm]
Henry: In terms of a cost-benefit analysis in terms of update, I have a niggling worry that we've already seen that getting your head around XProc is a barrier to adoption. If we add this additional dimension of complexity, it's going to get even harder.
14:14:44 [Norm]
...There's going to be another set of choices that need to be made everytime you want to do something.
14:15:32 [Norm]
Norm: I think you can run that argument the other way too.
14:16:06 [Norm]
...Most people will eventually want to do something with non-XML so I think that complexity is also a barrier to entry.
14:16:09 [Zakim]
+ +420.6.026.9.aabb
14:16:15 [Norm]
zakim, aabb is jfuller
14:16:15 [Zakim]
+jfuller; got it
14:16:27 [Norm]
Alex: In the case of XSLT, you can access the resources but you can't call templates on them.
14:17:02 [Norm]
...One of my concerns in XProc is that even though I want to be able to process non-XML things, if we start passing non-XML around then all sorts of things might not work at runtime.
14:17:23 [Norm]
...We have to define expected behavior for non-XML at a lot of different points in the pipeline.
14:17:43 [Norm]
...It also makes us more of a data flow language and the "X" is just there for historical reasons.
14:18:23 [Norm]
Alex: I think we need to produce use cases for non-XML documents.
14:18:40 [Norm]
Norm: Vojtech, can you send some mail summarizing some use cases?
14:19:08 [Norm]
Vojtech: It's all in the XML Prague paper. One use cases was http-request and JSON. Another was zip/unzip in the pipeline.
14:19:21 [Norm]
...I think there was one more too.
14:20:16 [Norm]
...Steps that produce non-XML output could produce the data on an output port and then you could do other things with them.
14:20:36 [Norm]
Norm: Formatting a PDF and sending it back as a result witout writing it to disk would be a use case.
14:21:37 [Norm]
Vojtech: I think it's really about the boundaries. It's nice if non-XML can flow through the pipeline, it makes things simpler. You don't have to pass around all these URI references to files. It's the very beginning of the pipeline where you need to read some non-XML or at the end if you want to produce non-XML.
14:22:38 [Norm]
Alex: I'm thinking of simple examples where I want to produce some non-XML and send it via http-request. Right now we don't have a good way to model that.
14:23:13 [Norm]
...Similarly, there's an issue of output. There's a distinction between the edges of the pipeline and inside the pipeline.
14:23:26 [Norm]
...It's not necessarily always the data that's flowing in between.
14:24:57 [Norm]
Jim: Developers are struggling because we have a lot of different data models. Now we're trying to figure out how we're going to manage all this different data. Are you suggesting we should redefine our internal data model? Extending XML to include other stuff? Or do we want to keep it on the perimeter. We seem to be in a state of flux.
14:25:23 [Norm]
...People can now have binaries and all sorts of data living very close together. The further away the data is in an operational infrastructure sense, the longer it takes to do analysis on it.
14:26:01 [Norm]
Jim: I think there might be some utility to using XProc in hadoop.
14:26:58 [Norm]
Alex: I'm not sure we're talking about mixing data models. The proposal from Vojtech is about dealing with media-type-ness.
14:27:22 [Norm]
...If you have an XML media type, you get an XDM; for non-XML you get a handle to a binary blob.
14:28:00 [Norm]
Vojtech: Maybe it can be even simpler, maybe you get non-XML data in a context where you expect XML, then maybe what you see is an empty document. But you have the media type so you can always tell.
14:28:20 [Norm]
...Then you don't have to extend the data model.
14:28:44 [Norm]
...You could just say that an XML infoset view on the data that flows in the pipeline produces XML for XML media types and an empty document for non-XML media types.
14:29:06 [Norm]
Norm: That seems about what I was thinking about.
14:29:26 [Norm]
Vojtech: Instead of changing XDM we should take a simple, pragmatic approach.
14:29:47 [Norm]
...It's not full support for non-XML, it's stilly mainly an XML processing language, it just makes things easier if you get non-XML.
14:30:13 [Norm]
Topic: Plan for use-cases/requirements document
14:31:23 [Norm]
Norm: I wonder if we should start with a more focused use cases/requirements document
14:31:30 [Norm]
Jim: I volunteer to help edit the document.
14:33:57 [jfuller]
If Alex/Murray have a starting point for use case v2.0 doc ... pls send it along
14:33:58 [Norm]
Norm: I suggest we start with a new document that identifies a small number of requirements that we're considering for
14:34:07 [Norm]
...Then we try to add use cases to that.
14:34:53 [Norm]
Jim: Do we have a latest link for the current doc?
14:35:10 [Norm]
14:35:50 [Norm]
Norm: Any chance we could have that skeleton done by next Monday/Tuesday.
14:35:53 [Norm]
Jim: Yes, I think so.
14:36:00 [Norm]
Alex: I'm not sure what I can do between now and then.
14:36:28 [Norm]
Topic: Other documents to publish?
14:36:31 [jfuller]
telephone delay issues ... apologies
14:36:42 [jfuller]
I'm only bullish as my defect count is at zero now ;)
14:36:49 [Norm]
Norm: Alex, you had another document in mind, yes?
14:37:01 [Norm]
Alex: Yes, it might be good to publish a note with the 1.0 solutions.
14:37:20 [Norm]
...It would be good to let everyone see how we solved the 1.0 use cases.
14:37:42 [jfuller]
agree with Alex approach
14:38:21 [Norm]
Norm: Can you put a first draft of that together?
14:38:38 [Norm]
ACTION A-220-01: Alex to produce a first draft of a "XProc 1.0 Solutions" note.
14:39:20 [Norm]
Norm: I'm on the hook for anote about OS operations; Jim, you're still on the hook for zip/unzip.
14:39:35 [Norm]
Norm: Are there any other documnts we think it would be beneficial to publish?
14:39:41 [Norm]
14:40:15 [Norm]
s/anote/a note/
14:40:30 [Norm]
Topic: New comments on the comments list
14:41:33 [Norm]
Norm: We need to go through and review these, but I'm not sure what the best strategy is
14:42:07 [Norm]
Norm: Has anyone looked at them?
14:42:32 [Norm]
Vojtech: There are two types of remarks: contradictions in our prose and gray areas; the others are some interesting things that I didn't notice when I was implementing certain features.
14:42:54 [Norm]
...There was this question about p:wrap-sequence and the group-adjacent option for example. We don't define what "the same" means.
14:42:59 [Norm]
...It's a clear whole in the spec.
14:43:22 [Norm]
Jim: He's got some simpler questions, like can we add XProc as a product to bugzilla.
14:43:59 [Norm]
ACTION: A-220-02: Norm to ask Liam how to get XProc added to bugzilla
14:44:43 [jfuller]
14:44:51 [jfuller]
14:45:35 [Norm]
Norm: July 0000 does look easy to fix. Remove "is in no namespace" from the second sentence.
14:45:58 [Norm]
Vojtech: No, I don't think that's the fix.
14:46:50 [Norm]
...In the first sentence we say it can be in any namespace but the second says it can't be in the XProc namespace
14:47:06 [jfuller]
+1 to that
14:47:17 [Norm]
ACTION A-220-03: Norm to make an erratum for July 0000 message.
14:47:45 [Norm]
14:48:46 [Norm]
Vojtech: We say that outputs of p:choose come from the subpipeline, but p:when isn't in the subpipeline.
14:48:58 [Norm]
Norm: I think we finesse the p:when case, but I'll have to take a closer look.
14:49:11 [Norm]
Vojtech: Basically, p:when is not a step.
14:49:35 [Norm]
ACTION A-220-04: Vojtech to investigate July 0002 and formulate an erratum to address it
14:49:46 [alexmilowski]
Looks like we have another implementor.
14:49:52 [Norm]
14:50:47 [Norm]
ACTION: A-220-05: Jim to investigate July 0003 and formulate an erratum to address it
14:51:26 [Norm]
14:52:00 [Norm]
s/July 0003/July 0004/
14:53:26 [Norm]
ACTION: A-220-06: Vojtech to investigate July 0003 and formulate an erratum to address it
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14:53:49 [Norm]
14:54:43 [Norm]
ACTION: A-220-07: Norm to investigate July 0005 and formulate an erratum to address it
14:54:59 [Norm]
Topic: Any other business?
14:55:09 [Norm]
Vojtech: I asked for approval to attend TPAC and I did not get it.
14:56:26 [Norm]
Norm: If you can hang out on IRC, we'll try to keep you in the loop
14:57:08 [Norm]
Norm: We can also try skype, google hangout, etc.
14:58:08 [Norm]
Jim: Do we have any outstanding Processor Profiles actions?
14:58:15 [Norm]
Norm: Yes, we need to get to them.
14:58:33 [Norm]
At TPAC: Norm, Jim, Henry, Mohamed, ...
14:59:03 [Norm]
Vojtech: I'll ask about Cornelia.
14:59:19 [Norm]
14:59:20 [Zakim]
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14:59:22 [Norm]
rrsagent, set logs world-visible
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14:59:26 [Norm]
rrsagent, draft minutes
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I have made the request to generate Norm
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XML_PMWG()10:00AM has ended
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Attendees were Alex_Milows, Norm, Vojtech, +1.778.440.aaaa, Murray, ht, +420.6.026.9.aabb, jfuller
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