16:33:17 RRSAgent has joined #ua 16:33:18 logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/10/04-ua-irc 16:33:19 RRSAgent, make logs public 16:33:20 Zakim has joined #ua 16:33:21 Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG 16:33:21 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 27 minutes 16:33:22 Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference 16:33:23 Date: 04 October 2012 16:33:34 rrsagent, make logs public 16:37:30 regrets: kelly, greg 16:37:47 chair: jimAllan, KellyFord 16:37:51 agenda+ Volunteers writing mobile examples 16:38:03 Agenda+ Levels Discussion 16:38:19 Agenda+ Privacy UA Community Group http://www.w3.org/community/pua/ 16:38:35 Agenda+ Finish off 2.8 16:40:41 agenda+ review 1.6.2 Speech Pitch and Range 16:40:43 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012JulSep/0070.html 16:56:53 Greg has joined #ua 16:59:13 jeanne has joined #ua 16:59:22 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started 16:59:29 +Jeanne 17:00:00 +Greg_Lowney 17:00:14 +Jim_Allan 17:02:17 regrets-greg 17:02:43 regrets -greg 17:02:52 rrsagent make minutes 17:02:58 rrsagent, make minutes 17:02:58 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/04-ua-minutes.html JAllan 17:02:59 KimPatch has joined #ua 17:03:07 +MarkHakkinen 17:03:27 rrsagent, set logs public 17:03:50 +Kim_Patch 17:05:59 mth has joined #ua 17:06:28 agenda ? 17:07:07 Jeanne: distribute document widely -- tweet, distribute 17:08:02 zakim, open item 1 17:08:02 agendum 1. "Volunteers writing mobile examples" taken up [from JAllan] 17:08:08 scribe: jeanne 17:08:53 -Greg_Lowney 17:09:16 +Greg_Lowney 17:09:39 KP: At the Boston Unconference I said to Judy that it would be good if we had more mobile examples in UAAG. She dragged me into a mobile accessibility session and got 6 volunteers to write examples. Most of them are in Boston, and the ones that aren't in Boston will be traveling to Boston. 17:10:01 JS: And this group are also invited to attend. 17:10:51 KP: All day Friday the 12th, at MIT. 17:11:18 JS: There will be a zakim dial-in number, I will send it out when I get it. 17:11:54 KP: we will go through the document, explain the format: here is the person with this disability. We won't do wordsmithing, just move fast to get the examples. 17:12:52 JA: It will be a good review from people who have never laid eyes on it. 17:13:11 KP: We will note other comments, but stay focused on the mobile examples. 17:13:32 zakim, close this item 17:13:32 agendum 1 closed 17:13:33 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:13:33 2. Levels Discussion [from JAllan] 17:13:38 zakim, take up item 5 17:13:38 agendum 5. "review 1.6.2 Speech Pitch and Range" taken up [from JAllan] 17:14:01 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012JulSep/0070.html 17:15:57 Jim: added a few words and the note to 1.6.2 17:16:13 new 1.6.2 Speech Pitch and Range: If synthesized speech is produced, the user can specify the following if offered by the speech synthesizer: 17:16:30 old 1.6.2 Speech Pitch and Range: If synthesized speech is produced, the user can specify the following: 17:17:19 Note: Because the technical implementations of text to speech engines vary (e.g., formant-based synthesis or concatenative synthesis), a specific engine may not support varying pitch or pitch range. A user agent will expose the availability of pitch and pitch range control if the currently selected or installed text to speech engine offers this capability. 17:17:35 What if a user agent bundles one or more speech synthesis modules; is there no incentive for them to include one that does support pitch and pitch range? 17:17:53 scribe: KimPatch 17:18:01 Mark: if it's in the engine it's exposed, if it's not, greyed out 17:18:40 Jan: we don't want to get into the chicken and egg problem where there's no incentive on the user agent to require those functions -- they're not required to request or select one that has it 17:18:57 Mark: some of the ones that are preferred by our test subjects don't have those capabilities 17:19:12 Mark: higher-quality engines really purely modeled after real speech samples 17:19:14 s/Jan: we/Greg: we 17:20:35 Mark: there are users that prefer certain speech engines because they want that feature -- there are speech engines that don't -- if supported it's incumbent on the user agent pass that along 17:22:55 discussing history 17:23:48 zakim, close item 5 17:23:48 agendum 5, review 1.6.2 Speech Pitch and Range, closed 17:23:49 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:23:49 2. Levels Discussion [from JAllan] 17:24:44 zakim, open item 2 17:24:44 agendum 2. "Levels Discussion" taken up [from JAllan] 17:25:44 action: Markku to take over rewrite of 2.8 17:25:44 Created ACTION-763 - Take over rewrite of 2.8 [on Markku Hakkinen - due 2012-10-11]. 17:27:25 Jim: going through -- not rewording, just saying whether it goes up or down, starting at 1.8.3 17:27:36 zakim, open item 3 17:27:36 agendum 3. "Privacy UA Community Group http://www.w3.org/community/pua/" taken up [from JAllan] 17:27:54 This came out of last week's CG meeting: MC: This came from PF regular review of community groups. This 17:27:54 group wants to write use cases for privacy for user agents. We 17:27:54 want to make sure that they know our use cases, such as 17:27:54 fingerprinting based on assitive technologies. 17:27:54 ... I was hoping UAAG will take it. 17:27:54 KF: I will bring it to the group and ask for a volunteer. 17:28:54 Jeanne: good opportunity to make sure accessibility is included, hoping that someone in UAAG will be able to take a look and make sure that there are accessibility use cases 17:29:02 Jan has joined #ua 17:29:47 Jeanne: community group, they've taken on writing use cases for privacy in user agents -- like do not track so people understand what they are choosing when they choose these options 17:30:06 +[IPcaller] 17:30:11 Mark: usability sessions that migrate from browser to browser session and make sure they don't filter out of the user control 17:30:11 The Private User Agent (PUA) Community Group is chartered to address covert sharing of User Agent (UA) state and to improve the security of the UA in this regard. The group seeks to standardize the designs necessary to achieve these goals, to develop extensions designed to mitigate inevitable losses of functionality, and to discuss and develop implementations and test suits. Mechanisms for... 17:30:13 ...expressing user privacy preferences to servers and content provides are outside the scope of this group. 17:30:22 zakim, [IPcaller] is really Jan 17:30:22 +Jan; got it 17:31:47 http://www.w3.org/community/pua/wiki/Draft 17:32:24 Jan: you can sniff for users with disabilities -- you can also sniff on the server side for all kinds of things -- reaction time or if they click on invisible buttons... 17:33:33 Jim: I don't see any use cases on the site now -- they're still really new 17:33:44 zakim, close item 3 17:33:44 agendum 3, Privacy UA Community Group http://www.w3.org/community/pua/, closed 17:33:46 I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:33:46 2. Levels Discussion [from JAllan] 17:33:55 zakim, open item 2 17:33:55 agendum 2. "Levels Discussion" taken up [from JAllan] 17:34:30 1.8.3 17:34:56 level A -- stays level A 17:35:38 Jan: viewport includes edit fields, might include scrolling Diivs, a think this is not an A 17:35:48 Jim: what's our definition of viewport 17:36:17 from Glossary: viewport: The part of an onscreen view that the user agent is currently presenting onscreen to the user, such that the user can attend to any part of it without further action (e.g. scrolling). There may be multiple viewports on to the same view (e.g. when a split-screen is used to present the top and bottom of a document simultaneously) and viewports may be nested (e.g. a... 17:36:18 ...scrolling frame located within a larger document). When the viewport is smaller in extent than the content it is presenting, user agents typically provide mechanisms to bring the occluded content into the viewport (e.g., scrollbars). 17:36:49 Greg: viewport includes the top-level window, some controversy for what included. Some browsers, chrome you can resize pretty much everything you can grab, they seem like they fall into our definition of viewport 17:37:01 JR: I'm thinking AA 17:37:49 Greg: my general feeling is that sometimes it's useful to distinguish between different kinds of viewports. Jan was referring to top-level viewport full-screen, if you can't resize that window that make you fail? The other difficult case is -- I don't know anybody who supports manual resizing of single line edit fields 17:38:24 Jan: can chrome resize divs? 17:38:27 http://www.domedia.org/oveklykken/css-div-scroll.php 17:39:21 Jan: I don't see any way to 17:39:23 Jim: no arrow grabbers 17:41:56 Greg: my concern is this -- is there any user agent that would pass if this was AA -- not if we define it this broadly. We could split this into a couple different requirements some of which are narrower. For example resizing a multiline input field like a text box -- and some browsers would pass, so we would be encouraging that 17:42:33 Jan: what browser can resize a multiline text input? 17:42:34 Greg: Chrome? 17:42:53 Greg: one of the browsers puts a resize handle at the lower left of every multiline input box 17:43:04 Mark: that's a user agent widget -- I've seen that in chrome, maybe Safari 17:43:33 Mark: it's an input field -- they're form controls, not divs 17:43:36 example: http://www.w3schools.com/html/showit.asp?filename=tryhtml_textarea 17:43:43 Chrome does allow me to resize 17:44:16 So does FF15 17:44:18 Greg: if some people do it for certain things that we could do a double A requirement for multi- line edit controls 17:44:48 Jan: Safari does it on a Mac 17:45:40 Jan: it doesn't stretch the whole size of the display, it makes the div ithat it's living within scrollable 17:45:42 Greg: the containing viewport 17:46:01 Jim: it's only a bottom resize 17:46:17 Jan: what's the keyboard accessibility of that? 17:47:04 Interesting: http://www.askthecssguy.com/examples/scrollingbox/index.html 17:47:31 So supported in form control but not when its a div 17:47:35 Rresizable multiline edit fields could be AA, resize top-level windows on platforms that support it could be A, but resize all viewports is probably beyond our scope because not implemented by any browser today. 17:48:54 Ideally of course what can be done to multiline edit controls would also be for list boxes, including drop-down list boxes. 17:49:48 Jim: based on what Greg is saying 1.8.3 will either be a AAA or goes away or we rewrite it into two or three with the incumbent examples and intent and all that 17:50:00 Greg: leaning toward the latter 17:51:14 Greg: even if most browsers supported resizing multiline edit Fields I don't see it as a because the impact of lacking it isn't strong enough whereas not being able to resize a top-level window can be worse because in many cases those don't support scrolling and making text bigger makes things disappear 17:52:21 Jim: just reading this we assume you're trying to make the window bigger -- I've seen what Greg was describing where you have someone do that opens and your font is too big and things disappear and there's no scrollbars, so if we change this to can resize top-level graphical viewports -- change the type of graphical viewport were talking about 17:52:40 Greg: a multilevel viewport is not a top-level window 17:53:40 Jan: the bigger thing here -- why do you want to resize the viewport or edit field -- because these things have scrollbars and you want to see more of what's behind there without so much using the scrollbar, whether it's an edit field or the whole window 17:54:52 Jan: and then we have this practical constraint that view ports within viewports within viewports -- what if we say something like -- if you port that isn't able to show the full content resize to the limit of the display or the limits of its own containing viewport 17:56:05 Jan: we could say recognized scrollbars, and that would get us out of weasley situations where the user has put in scrollbars that the user agent doesn't know anything about 17:56:43 Greg: I'd like to look over some stuff before we finalize a decision on new wording. 17:57:39 looking at related action items 17:58:33 1.8.3 undecided 17:59:11 Greg to look rewording and send to list 17:59:27 s/level A -- stays level A/level A -- Undecided...more discussion needed 18:00:22 Greg: 1.8.3, 1.8.4 and 1.8.11 are all related 18:01:52 Greg to look at all three 18:02:28 1.8.4 - subject to change pending Greg submission 18:02:36 1.8.11 - subject to change pending Greg submission 18:03:13 1.8.5 -- currently level A 18:04:25 Greg: should be general enough to let people recognize other mechanisms not just scrollbars 18:04:50 Greg: for example Google maps is essentially an infinite scrollable area so scrollbars wouldn't make sense 18:05:38 Greg: current wording is unclear as to extent -- if an application uses scrollbar but doesn't indicate whether you are 90 percent or 10 percent -- do we want to rewrite and include extent 18:06:04 Jan: position is enough -- extent is easier to figure out 18:06:29 Jan: we should change "to the full extent" to "to the full recognized extent" 18:06:54 Jan: so if I'm streaming in a video it may be the case that the position is given to the user agent but it may be that it is not 18:07:49 Greg: fixed width only gives you are you at the bottom or are you at the top, no other information -- is that sufficient? 18:09:53 Jan: are screeners able to access that information? 18:09:55 Greg: standard scrollbars, but if not standard scrollbars 18:10:40 Greg: menus that are built into the user agent would not 18:12:46 rrsagent, make minutes 18:12:46 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/04-ua-minutes.html JAllan 18:13:01 http://www.w3.org/2012/09/20-ua-irc 18:13:11 http://www.w3.org/2012/09/20-ua-minutes.html 18:15:00 looking at log from the 20th -- 2.3.2 is the next one 18:15:49 2.3.2 Present Direct Commands in Rendered Content 18:16:40 Jan: don't think its A, folks learn this 18:17:45 Jim: if they're visible you can look at it -- if it's not on the screen then you're going to have to remember or tab to get around it 18:17:50 kim: right they don't learn, these need to be visible so people can remember and use them 18:18:28 Greg: undecided -- I think it's a valuable thing. a lot of web browsers don't do built-in, but get extensions to do it 18:19:49 Mark: I'm a thing at different tablet-based browsers that were experimenting with -- I see a lot of creativity in how things such as scrolling appear and whether they are even visible at all until you start to do something. I'd like to get the user agents to make it obvious that you can do these things. 18:20:20 Greg: I wonder if we ensure that user agents include the ability to see the access keys will that help us promote the use of access keys? 18:20:35 Kim: yes -- discoverability is everything 18:20:45 Greg: do we know who would pass today? 18:21:35 Jan: it's not just access key, if anything were a direct command of the keyboard is going to do something on the screen, and present the command with the related element -- I don't think Jaws does that 18:21:51 Jim: I can get lists, but it doesn't expose them in the content as you go along 18:22:40 Mark: there's no way you're going to expect the user agent to parse the JavaScript 18:22:42 Jan: that's why recognized 18:23:10 Jan: what does Lundmark apply here -- on the navigation bar roll what will you have? What would that look like? 18:25:49 Jan: direct commands -- were talking keystrokes -- direct commands that either take you to a spot on the page or activate something. Example, something has a little h on it, is that the idea? 18:28:04 kim: cognitive issues, if you don't know the keys you can't push them. 18:28:37 Jim: we will continue with 2.3.4 next week 18:30:00 -Jan 18:30:05 MC, can you assign a keyboard shortcut to an ARIA landmark? 18:30:05 that's outside the ARIA spec 18:30:05 ... the UA could provide such a feature if it wanted 18:30:05 ... or the author could, as a separate step from providing the role 18:30:05 ... but there's no requirement 18:30:25 -Greg_Lowney 18:30:27 -MarkHakkinen 18:30:29 -Kim_Patch 18:32:09 could put an AccessKey in the same element as a landmark and use that for navigation to the landmark 18:33:13 rrsagent, make minutes 18:33:13 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/04-ua-minutes.html JAllan 18:33:36 -Jeanne 18:33:38 -Jim_Allan 18:33:38 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended 18:33:38 Attendees were Jeanne, Greg_Lowney, Jim_Allan, MarkHakkinen, Kim_Patch, Jan 18:34:12 zakim, please part 18:34:12 Zakim has left #ua 18:34:25 rrsagent, make minutes 18:34:25 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/04-ua-minutes.html JAllan 18:34:58 rrsagent please part 18:35:07 rrsagent, please part 18:35:07 I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/10/04-ua-actions.rdf : 18:35:07 ACTION: Markku to take over rewrite of 2.8 [1] 18:35:07 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/10/04-ua-irc#T17-25-44