14:56:52 RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y 14:56:52 logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/10/04-html-a11y-irc 14:56:54 RRSAgent, make logs world 14:56:54 Zakim has joined #html-a11y 14:56:56 Zakim, this will be 2119 14:56:57 Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference 14:56:57 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM scheduled to start 56 minutes ago 14:56:57 Date: 04 October 2012 14:57:47 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012Oct/0003.html 14:58:19 Meeting: HTML-A11Y Task Force Teleconference 14:58:20 Chair: Janina_Sajka 14:58:21 agenda+ Sec. 7.1 Hidden http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012Oct/0001.html 14:58:23 agenda+ Plan2014 (Revision 2) Discussion https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2012JulSep/0312.html 14:58:24 agenda+ Subteam Reports: Bug Triage; AAPI Mapping; Text 14:58:26 agenda+ The Task Force at the TPAC 14:58:27 agenda+ Other Business 14:58:29 agenda+ Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open 14:58:31 agenda+ Identify Scribe for the next TF teleconference http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List 14:59:12 janina has joined #html-a11y 14:59:33 WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM has now started 14:59:37 +??P50 14:59:41 +??P14 14:59:52 zakim, ??P50 is Michael_Cooper 14:59:52 +Michael_Cooper; got it 15:00:02 zakim, ??P14 is Janina_Sajka 15:00:02 +Janina_Sajka; got it 15:00:13 Judy has joined #html-A11y 15:00:41 +John_Foliot 15:00:45 +hober 15:00:52 zakim, what is the passcode? 15:00:57 +Judy 15:01:01 the conference code is 2119 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), rubys 15:01:02 Sam, passcode is 2119# 15:01:38 plh has joined #html-a11y 15:01:56 paulc has joined #html-a11y 15:02:05 +Plh 15:02:40 +Sam 15:02:43 zakim, who's on the phone? 15:02:47 -hober 15:03:16 On the phone I see Janina_Sajka, Michael_Cooper, John_Foliot, Judy, Plh, Sam 15:03:31 +hober 15:03:44 scribe: MichaelC 15:03:48 +[Microsoft] 15:04:06 +Cynthia_Shelly 15:04:15 zakim, [Microsoft] has paulc 15:04:15 +paulc; got it 15:04:47 +James_Craig 15:05:30 zakim, take up item 2 15:05:30 agendum 2. "Plan2014 (Revision 2) Discussion https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2012JulSep/0312.html" taken up [from MichaelC] 15:05:56 js: there are ongoing discussions about specifics of the plan 15:06:19 here to solicit input on approach and role of this task force 15:06:52 formalities of relationship between the TF, PFWG, and HTML WG 15:07:57 q+ 15:08:42 ack j 15:09:00 current plan 2014 link: http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/html5-2014-plan.html 15:09:09 jb: for Plan2014 to work, the TF must have more clear ability to produce its deliverables 15:09:25 section on a11y tf: http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/html5-2014-plan.html#a11y-tf 15:09:50 there's been discussion on clarification to TF work statement 15:10:02 At the end of the "Scope of Work" section, add the following paragraph: 15:10:02 > The task force may also create specifications that extend deliverables of the HTML Working Group, in the area of accessibility. The Accessibility Task Force will have decision authority over the contents of such extension specifications. Any such specifications will be considered jointly produced by the HTML Working Group and PFWG, for purposes of W3C Publication. This means that, as with any w3c joint task force deliverable, both Working Groups must approve 15:10:11 jb: there is still stuff we're trying to sort out 15:10:20 current TF statement: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/html-task-force 15:10:41 The task force may also create specifications that extend deliverables of the HTML Working Group, in the area of accessibility. 15:10:56 The Accessibility Task Force will have decision authority over the contents of such extension specifications. Any such specifications will be considered jointly produced by the HTML Working Group and PFWG, for purposes of W3C Publication. 15:11:09 This means that, as with any w3c joint task force deliverable, both Working Groups must approve transitions such as First Public Working Draft or Last Call. 15:11:23 It also means that documents will create Patent Policy obligations in both groups. 15:11:33 Members of either Working Group who have technical comments or objections on Task Force publications are expected to raise them in the context of the Task Force 15:11:36 -- done 15:11:39 s/> The task force may also create specifications that extend deliverables of the HTML Working Group, in the area of accessibility. The Accessibility Task Force will have decision authority over the contents of such extension specifications. Any such specifications will be considered jointly produced by the HTML Working Group and PFWG, for purposes of W3C Publication. This means that, as... 15:11:40 ...with any w3c joint task force deliverable, both Working Groups must approve // 15:11:56 richardschwerdtfe has joined #html-a11y 15:12:13 +Rich 15:12:29 jb: accounts for things that can become standalone specs or reintegrated into HTML 15:12:46 who produces 15:12:52 implications for Patent Policy 15:13:29 right now it's clear that PFWG sign-off is needed, but whether under PFWG Patent Policy is open question 15:13:33 Stevef has joined #html-a11y 15:13:51 expectation that objections from either group would be taken to the task force to be worked out there 15:13:54 -hober 15:14:05 +[Apple] 15:14:07 Zakim, Apple is me 15:14:07 +hober; got it 15:14:11 so we'd like input on approval sign-off, patent policy, and anything else 15:14:32 +David_MacDonald 15:15:11 js: so we're talking about joint publication between PFWG and HTML WG 15:15:28 accessibility issues with HTML would start as extensions 15:15:33 worked on in this task force 15:16:00 David has joined #html-a11y 15:16:03 normal W3C Recommendation development lifecycle applies 15:16:04 +??P29 15:16:20 opportunity to integrate into HTML at particular milestones 15:16:43 zakim, ??p29 is me 15:16:43 +Stevef; got it 15:16:54 need to work out when WGs might legitimately oppose publication 15:17:01 jcraig has joined #html-a11y 15:17:24 vs when the answer would be that the concerns need to [be|have been] worked out in TF 15:17:43 Zakim, who is on the call? 15:17:43 On the phone I see Janina_Sajka, Michael_Cooper, John_Foliot, Judy, Plh, Sam, [Microsoft], Cynthia_Shelly, James_Craig, Rich, hober, David_MacDonald, Stevef 15:17:44 q+ 15:17:46 [Microsoft] has paulc 15:17:54 not giving carte blanche to TF, but need a basis for deciding 15:17:57 ack p 15:18:00 q? 15:18:50 pc: my experience with XQuery and XSL WGs was that the concerns became moot if there was active representation from both sides 15:19:10 q? 15:19:27 so one way to mitigate concerns is make sure TF is able to accommodate participation from both WGs 15:19:33 q? 15:19:35 js: yes, we want to work on that 15:19:47 q+ 15:20:02 ack j 15:20:19 jb: other questions on proposal? 15:20:29 q+ 15:20:44 cs: sounds like a good step in the right direction 15:20:44 +1 to cyns 15:20:48 ack d 15:21:12 dmd: no plan to remove anything from HTML, except perhaps the alt text advice? 15:21:42 js: that's current plan 15:22:05 q+ 15:22:06 any overall concerns? 15:22:15 ack s 15:22:50 sf: note the alt guidance is normative 15:23:02 js: right - I meant "non-lexical" earlier 15:23:07 15:23:42 expect proposed language to come out by email soon 15:24:02 sr: will run by HTML WG as well, then post by email 15:24:22 zakim, next item 15:24:22 agendum 1. "Sec. 7.1 Hidden http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012Oct/0001.html" taken up [from MichaelC] 15:24:43 Q+ 15:25:10 js: email exchange between RS and TOC 15:25:28 rs: discussed with ARIA team Monday, have a couple tweaks to meet concerns 15:25:36 toc: will review 15:25:51 rs: 15:26:03 sounds like @hidden not treated as in navigation 15:26:12 cs: will test IE10 15:26:19 rs: test file attached to message on list 15:26:27 sf: found not implemented in IE10 15:26:58 Rich's email: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012Oct/0011.html 15:27:24 ack j 15:27:44 jf: proposal is that elements are hidden from presentation but still active 15:27:50 yet not focusable 15:28:00 concerned about that 15:28:23 how does someone interact with form if they can't focus on element 15:28:25 rs: they can't 15:28:34 jf: so form is effectively disabled 15:28:38 rs: from user input, yes 15:28:47 jcraig_ has joined #html-a11y 15:28:55 jf: what about event handlers, are they disabled as well? 15:28:57 q+ 15:29:01 q? 15:29:35 toc: they're technically still attached, but they can't be actuated 15:29:40 so effectively disabled 15:29:57 rs: you can't direct input to them, because they're no binding to the UI 15:30:06 though a script could still e.g., submit the form 15:30:44 q? 15:31:11 consider hidden fallback content 15:31:34 it's in keyboard navigation order and events can be routed to it 15:31:35 q? 15:31:45 15:32:00 cs: what happens if you try to set focus on it? 15:32:02 rs: not sure 15:32:08 jc: expect a runtime error 15:32:42 js: 15:33:13 jf: concern that user could get landed on hidden content 15:33:23 if that won't happen, then my concerns are allayed 15:33:35 just need to be really sure of edge cases 15:33:40 toc: 15:33:54 jf: my formal objection has been that an element with tab focus could be hidden 15:34:09 so your sentence addresses my concern 15:34:18 If you set focus on a non-focusable element, you get a js runtime error. I expect the same of non-rendered elements such as elements contained in hidden="" nodes. (With the one notable exception for canvas shadow DOM.) 15:34:19 q+ 15:34:35 ack s 15:34:37 s/so your sentence addresses my concern/so that sentence addresses my concern/ 15:34:46 q+ to ask what happen to focus if an element with focus is set to hidden 15:35:18 sf: @hidden is just a semantic marker that corresponds to css display:none 15:35:43 shouldn't it be treated exactly the same? 15:35:54 if you put display:block on a hidden element, it is displayed 15:36:48 q? 15:36:57 jc: have observed this as well 15:37:19 q+ to indicate the difference is with media presentations 15:37:19 ack me 15:37:20 jcraig, you wanted to indicate the difference is with media presentations 15:37:34 though note css is tied to a particular presentation, whereas @hidden is across all 15:37:42 sf: seems not implemented that way 15:38:08 want clarity 15:39:03 mc: perhaps should specify whether @hidden overrides CSS or vice versa 15:39:06 ack me 15:39:06 MichaelC, you wanted to ask what happen to focus if an element with focus is set to hidden 15:39:23 what about [hidden] { display: block !important; } 15:39:41 mc: ^ 15:40:18 not sure what the answer should be, but we should address it explicitly 15:40:34 q+ 15:41:02 js: sometimes in a form a default action can still happen 15:42:23 mc: could say the focus should be automatically advanced to the next element 15:42:25 jf: or previous 15:42:49 mc: or we could say the focus is on a hidden element, next time user tries to advance they get to the next focusable element 15:42:52 q? 15:42:58 ack st 15:42:59 or focus could go to page overall, though less useful 15:43:01 sf: 15:43:27 jcraig_ has joined #html-a11y 15:43:42 q? 15:44:03 it would be an authoring error 15:44:04 q? 15:44:14 mc: should still specify error recover behaviour 15:45:11 q+ 15:45:20 ack j 15:45:57 jb: JamesC can you run this discussion past Maciej? 15:46:16 toc: would like to have issues raised on mailing list so entire group can discuss 15:46:36 js: would ask someone to extract issues in the minutes to a list discussion starter 15:46:40 +1 to mailing list discussion; just don't want the detail to get lost, after this discussion 15:46:47 q? 15:47:28 q? 15:47:34 rs: 15:47:42 jf: question is of focusability 15:47:54 need to be sure focus [on @hidden elements] will never happen, period 15:47:59 q? 15:47:59 rs: need to test that out 15:48:07 jf: need to be clear about expected outcome first 15:48:36 q? 15:48:52 rs: have tested the current proposal on a number of browsers, though still need to exercise script tests 15:49:10 cs: can add text that focus method will fail 15:49:28 ACTION: MichaelC to file two HTML defects on his raised issues: 1) to determine whether @hidden overrides all CSS, and 2) to determine where focus goes when a focused element becomes hidden. 15:49:29 Created ACTION-141 - File two HTML defects on his raised issues: 1) to determine whether @hidden overrides all CSS, and 2) to determine where focus goes when a focused element becomes hidden. [on Michael Cooper - due 2012-10-11]. 15:49:31 js: also that @hidden overrides CSS display values 15:49:47 and decide what happens if element with focus gets set to @hidden 15:50:13 cs: the CSS stuff should also be run past the CSS WG 15:50:42 do want to specify that certain methods should fail 15:50:53 note that may be different from current implementation 15:51:01 jc: can propose wording? 15:51:03 cs: yes 15:51:21 rs: 15:51:34 toc: this doesn't change the overall normative content so it's ok 15:53:31 action: cynthia to file HTML bug about methods that should fail when an element has @hidden set 15:53:31 Created ACTION-142 - File HTML bug about methods that should fail when an element has @hidden set [on Cynthia Shelly - due 2012-10-11]. 15:54:01 rs: objection to current text? (knowing it needs expansion) 15:54:26 toc: will get to that from my inbox 15:54:41 jf: sounds good, just need expansions from today's discussion 15:55:02 closing these loops will allow me to withdraw my Formal Objection 15:56:25 js: sounds like we'll be able to wrap this topic up soon 15:56:32 -James_Craig 15:56:33 -Rich 15:56:33 -Michael_Cooper 15:56:34 -Janina_Sajka 15:56:35 -David_MacDonald 15:56:36 -John_Foliot 15:56:36 -hober 15:56:37 -Stevef 15:56:38 -Sam 15:56:41 -Plh 15:56:48 -Judy 15:57:37 jcraig has left #html-a11y 15:58:13 -Cynthia_Shelly 16:03:09 -[Microsoft] 16:03:10 WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM has ended 16:03:10 Attendees were Michael_Cooper, Janina_Sajka, John_Foliot, hober, Judy, Plh, Sam, Cynthia_Shelly, paulc, James_Craig, Rich, David_MacDonald, Stevef 16:22:25 scribeOptions: -final 16:22:28 rrsagent, make minutes 16:22:28 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/04-html-a11y-minutes.html MichaelC 16:25:44 Judy has left #html-A11y 16:26:37 zakim, bye 16:26:37 Zakim has left #html-a11y 16:26:39 rrsagent, bye 16:26:39 I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/10/04-html-a11y-actions.rdf : 16:26:39 ACTION: MichaelC to file two HTML defects on his raised issues: 1) to determine whether @hidden overrides all CSS, and 2) to determine where focus goes when a focused element becomes hidden. [1] 16:26:39 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/10/04-html-a11y-irc#T15-49-28 16:26:39 ACTION: cynthia to file HTML bug about methods that should fail when an element has @hidden set [2] 16:26:39 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/10/04-html-a11y-irc#T15-53-31