16:58:48 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #indie-ui
16:58:48 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/10/03-indie-ui-irc
16:58:50 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs 175
16:58:50 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #indie-ui
16:58:52 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be INDIE
16:58:52 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_Indie()1:00PM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
16:58:53 <trackbot> Meeting: Independent User Interface Task Force Teleconference
16:58:53 <trackbot> Date: 03 October 2012
16:59:11 <Zakim> WAI_Indie()1:00PM has now started
16:59:18 <Zakim> +??P0
16:59:26 <shepazu> zakim, code?
16:59:26 <Zakim> the conference code is 46343 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), shepazu
16:59:57 <janina> zakim, ??P0 is Janina_Sajka
16:59:57 <Zakim> +Janina_Sajka; got it
16:59:59 <Zakim> +[Google]
17:00:05 <janina> Meeting: IndieUI Task Force telecon
17:00:05 <janina> Chair: Janina_Sajka
17:00:05 <janina> agenda+ Admin: Telecon Time Survey http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-indie-ui/2012Oct/0001.html
17:00:08 <janina> agenda+ Admin: IndieUI Overview Page http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-indie-ui/2012Oct/0002.html
17:00:11 <janina> agenda+ admin: WAI IndieUI WG Telecon on 10 October
17:00:14 <janina> agenda+ Admin: TPAC; agenda+    Admin: Pointer Events Submission [See
17:00:16 <janina> Below]
17:00:17 <shepazu> Zakim, [Google] is me 
17:00:17 <Zakim> +shepazu; got it
17:00:19 <janina> agenda+ Editor's Draft?  https://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/track/actions/open
17:00:21 <janina> agenda+ Use Cases Walk-Through; Continued http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/wiki/Use_Cases_and_Requirements
17:00:24 <janina> agenda+ Scribe for our Next Teleconference (on 17 October)
17:00:27 <janina> agenda+ Be Done
17:01:18 <Zakim> +[Apple]
17:01:21 <hober> Zakim, Apple is me
17:01:21 <Zakim> +hober; got it
17:01:52 <andy> andy has joined #indie-ui
17:02:31 <Zakim> +??P3
17:02:33 <clown> clown has joined #indie-ui
17:02:42 <Zakim> +??P4
17:02:45 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P4 is Michael_Cooper
17:02:45 <Zakim> +Michael_Cooper; got it
17:03:07 <andy> zakim, mute me
17:03:07 <Zakim> sorry, andy, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
17:03:13 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
17:03:22 <clown> zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:03:22 <Zakim> +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
17:03:25 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P3 is Andi_Heath
17:03:25 <Zakim> +Andi_Heath; got it
17:03:32 <clown> zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:03:32 <Zakim> ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:03:44 <Zakim> +Art_Barstow
17:03:46 <MichaelC> zakim, Andi is Andy_Heath
17:03:46 <Zakim> +Andy_Heath; got it
17:03:54 <MichaelC> zakim, andy is Andy_Heath
17:03:54 <Zakim> +Andy_Heath; got it
17:03:56 <andy> zakim, mute me
17:03:56 <Zakim> Andy_Heath.a should now be muted
17:04:05 <richardschwerdtfe> richardschwerdtfe has joined #indie-ui
17:04:23 <ArtB> ArtB has joined #indie-ui
17:05:21 <Zakim> +Rich
17:05:23 <hober> ScribeNick: hober
17:05:31 <Zakim> + +1.626.841.aaaa
17:05:35 <janina>  zakim, take up item 1
17:05:35 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Admin: Telecon Time Survey http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-indie-ui/2012Oct/0001.html" taken up [from janina]
17:05:35 <andy> zakim, unmute me
17:05:38 <Zakim> Andy_Heath.a should no longer be muted
17:06:01 <hober> janina: fyi, we've surveyed about different/rotating telcon schedule
17:06:07 <Zakim> +Katie_Haritos-Shea
17:06:13 <clown> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/54997/2012_meetings/results
17:06:21 <hober> janina: the current schedule is late in the day for europe and middle of night for asia
17:06:27 <hober> janina: survey is open through tomorrow
17:06:39 <hober> janina: we'll talk it over on the list and on the call
17:07:10 <Ryladog> Ryladog has joined #indie-ui
17:07:13 <hober> richardschwerdtfe: what sort of conflicts do we have?
17:07:27 <hober> janina: [describes global interest]
17:08:09 <hober> MichaelC: each of the two times in the survey would gain us one person who is not currently attending this time
17:08:20 <hober> ... gain of one person might not be worth it; need more people to vote
17:08:54 <janina> zakim, next item
17:08:54 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Admin: IndieUI Overview Page http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-indie-ui/2012Oct/0002.html" taken up [from janina]
17:09:39 <hober> janina: the education and outreach wai wg maintains overview pages for each wai activity
17:09:46 <janina> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-indie-ui/2012Oct/0002.html
17:09:52 <hober> janina: they've drafted an overview page for the wai indie-ui wg
17:10:02 <hober> ... please take a look, check for accuracy, etc.
17:10:10 <hober> ... audience is non-technical
17:10:28 <hober> ... should be readily understandable, accurate, and comprehensive
17:11:02 <hober> Zakim, who is on the phone?
17:11:02 <Zakim> On the phone I see Janina_Sajka, shepazu, hober, Andy_Heath.a, Michael_Cooper, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Art_Barstow, Rich, +1.626.841.aaaa, Katie_Haritos-Shea
17:11:15 <janina> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-indie-ui/2012Oct/0002.html
17:11:19 <hober> janina: any questions about this page?
17:11:40 <clown> actual page is here: http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/IndieUI_Overview
17:12:00 <shepazu> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/IndieUI_Overview
17:12:05 <hober> shepazu: could we take a minute now to skim?
17:12:08 <hober> janina: yes
17:13:30 <Zakim> +Shawn
17:13:32 <hober> richardschwerdtfe: the introduction only talks about device independent events and not the user context
17:13:49 <hober> richardschwerdtfe: could also mention scroll wheel in scrolling example
17:13:59 <hober> janina: [introduces Shawn]
17:14:51 <Ryladog> +1 to include AT in Intro
17:14:56 <hober> Shawn: we're trying to cover what this is for in the introduction, and then we talk about each document in the documents section
17:15:06 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #indie-ui
17:15:10 <hober> Shawn: the intro captures the idea, why we're doing this
17:15:37 <hober> richardschwerdtfe: in the first sentence, not just a wide range of devices, but also a wide range of users and the contexts in which they operate
17:16:13 <Zakim> +[Apple]
17:16:23 <Ryladog> q+
17:16:24 <jcraig> Zakim, [Apple] has jcraig
17:16:25 <Zakim> +jcraig; got it
17:16:44 <hober> richardschwerdtfe: could use more of a "command" example like "open", instead of a device-tied example like "scroll"
17:17:01 <hober> richardschwerdtfe: you might have an "open" event, top open a folder, to open a new row in your document
17:17:13 <hober> richardschwerdtfe: or other high-level examples like zoom in, zoom out
17:17:28 <jcraig> q+ to suggest escape/dismiss example
17:17:44 <hober> shepazu: scroll seems less compelling, it usually has a lot of existing affordances
17:17:57 <hober> Shawn: for either zoom or open, what would the sentence be like?
17:18:19 <andy> hoper - sorry - just saw this - I suggested "wide range of user needs and devices"
17:18:22 <jcraig> q+ to say "open" will be too easily confused with "click"
17:18:51 <hober> richardschwerdtfe: "a user operating a web application may wish to open a folder using a broad range of device commands such as a gesture, a voice command, etc. Indie-UI allows the device to send a simple 'open' event to the application regardless of how the user signaled..."
17:19:04 <hober> richardschwerdtfe: in both the intro and the documents section
17:19:25 <hober> Shawn: would this be an additional example or replacing the existing one?
17:19:33 <janina> q?
17:19:33 <hober> shepazu: combine the two
17:19:59 <hober> shepazu: [expands on that]
17:20:15 <richardschwerdtfe> q?
17:20:28 <MichaelC> ack ryl
17:20:29 <Zakim> - +1.626.841.aaaa
17:20:42 <janina> ack jcraig 
17:20:43 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to suggest escape/dismiss example and to say "open" will be too easily confused with "click"
17:20:47 <Ryladog> Better to use the word 'Context' (as Rich suggests) with (use needs, preferences, access device) in parans after it. Example: 'Context' (as Rich suggests) with (use needs, preferences, access device)
17:20:50 <hober> jcraig: wordsmithing is probably not the best use of telcon time
17:21:02 <Ryladog> Soory, somehow I muted myself
17:21:06 <hober> jcraig: rich's example of open is also confused, like scroll
17:21:12 <MichaelC> q+ Katie
17:21:15 <Ryladog> Zakim unmute me
17:21:16 <hober> jcraig: we could use an escape or dismiss gesture
17:21:27 <hober> jcraig: lots of people capture ESC key
17:21:38 <MichaelC> ack k
17:21:39 <janina> q?
17:21:44 <janina> ack Ryladog 
17:21:55 <hober> Ryladog: the word 'context' as rich suggested is key
17:21:58 <Caroline_Jay> Caroline_Jay has joined #indie-ui
17:22:11 <hober> Ryladog: important to make this broader, and 'context' does that
17:22:20 <janina> q?
17:22:38 <hober> Shawn: scroll seems so much stronger for novices
17:22:59 <hober> Shawn: could you say the same sort of thing for escape or dismiss?
17:23:10 <jcraig> s/example of open is also confused/example of open could also be confused by users/
17:23:23 <hober> janina: we're not sure what to call it, so it might not be a good example
17:23:29 <clown> q+ to suggest a checkbox as a very concrete case.
17:23:35 <hober> janina: zoom is also common, like scroll
17:23:37 <jcraig> q+
17:23:43 <janina> q?
17:23:48 <andy> q+
17:23:55 <hober> Shawn: do you want me to draft wording for zoom?
17:24:04 <hober> Shawn: is it ok to put out a draft of this with scroll?
17:24:06 <hober> shepazu: that's fine
17:24:16 <hober> janina: you can send it to the mailing list
17:24:40 <hober> clown: if we want to replace the scroll event example, we could use a checkbox
17:24:42 <janina> q?
17:24:52 <hober> clown: [describes various ways of toggling a checkbox]
17:25:00 <janina> ack clown
17:25:07 <hober> jcraig: checkbox is already covered by click events
17:25:16 <hober> ... scroll is fine for now, zoom too
17:25:29 <janina> ack joseph
17:25:29 <Zakim> Joseph_Scheuhammer, you wanted to suggest a checkbox as a very concrete case.
17:25:38 <hober> ... some examples of escape or dismiss: kbd ESC, voice over has a gesture, android has a back button
17:25:40 <janina> ack jcraig 
17:25:44 <janina> ack andy 
17:25:53 <janina> q?
17:26:34 <hober> andy: re: the "indie ui: user context" paragraph, user settings is too narrow, maybe 'preferences' would be better?
17:26:48 <hober> Shawn: we could swap them around, would decouple it from AT
17:26:58 <hober> andy: the word 'settings' doesn't say what sort of settings
17:27:11 <hober> shepazu: can we wordsmith over email?
17:27:20 <hober> janina: i think we should
17:27:27 <hober> Shawn: will try to get an email out today
17:27:33 <Zakim> -Shawn
17:27:35 <janina> zakim, next item
17:27:35 <Zakim> agendum 3. "admin: WAI IndieUI WG Telecon on 10 October" taken up [from janina]
17:28:02 <hober> janina: those of you who are in the wai wg, we have a brief telcon next week
17:28:12 <hober> ... for administrative topisc
17:28:19 <hober> s/topisc/topics/
17:28:43 <Zakim> +??P8
17:29:28 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P8 is Caroline_Jay
17:29:28 <Zakim> +Caroline_Jay; got it
17:30:04 <hober> janina: re: TPAC, our agenda is on our wiki page
17:30:16 <MichaelC> -> http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/wiki/Meetings/TPAC2012 IndieUI TPAC 2012 meeting page
17:30:22 <janina> zakim, next item
17:30:22 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Admin: TPAC; agenda+    Admin: Pointer Events Submission [See" taken up [from janina]
17:30:52 <hober> janina: we've had a submission; ac is considering it
17:31:15 <hober> ArtB: web events wg welcomes the submission
17:31:36 <hober> ... if we assume the wg gets created, it affects some web events work
17:31:43 <hober> ... and our participation in indi-ui tf
17:31:56 <hober> ... web events will continue working on the touch events v1
17:31:58 <hober> ... to CR
17:32:05 <hober> ... we will stop work on touch events v2
17:32:22 <hober> ... instead we'll work with pointer events wg
17:32:35 <hober> ... once touch events v1 rec is published, web events wg will close
17:32:54 <hober> ... so how do web events participants continue participating in this tf?
17:33:08 <hober> ... most straightforward way would be to ask web events folks to join the wai wg
17:34:17 <janina> q?
17:34:21 <hober> shepazu: [talks about the pointer events model; prefers it to the touch events model]
17:35:18 <MichaelC> q+
17:35:20 <hober> shepazu: if web events shuts down, don't know what that will mean wrt my involvement in this tf
17:35:28 <janina> ack MichaelC 
17:35:41 <hober> MichaelC: if that happens, should this tf become joint with pointer events wg?
17:35:43 <hober> shepazu: no
17:36:05 <hober> ... they want to be very focused, don't want to veer off on high-level events
17:36:10 <janina> q+ to ask how pointer events will handle multip-finger touch events
17:36:43 <hober> janina: how does the pointer events model handle multiple finger events?
17:36:57 <hober> shepazu: it doesn't do gestures, it does multiple fingers
17:37:14 <janina> q?
17:37:23 <janina> ack janina
17:37:23 <Zakim> janina, you wanted to ask how pointer events will handle multip-finger touch events
17:37:38 <hober> ArtB: we should keep pointer events really narrowly scoped
17:38:20 <hober> MichaelC: web events wg participants in this tf are invited to join the wai indie-ui tf
17:39:36 <hober> janina: AC voting goes on through the 25th
17:39:45 <hober> ... not a done deal yet
17:40:07 <hober> MichaelC: 4 or 5 people would be affected
17:40:29 <janina> zakim, next item
17:40:29 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Editor's Draft?  https://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/track/actions/open" taken up [from janina]
17:40:47 <Zakim> -Art_Barstow
17:40:51 <Zakim> -shepazu
17:40:54 <ArtB> ArtB has left #indie-ui
17:41:01 <hober> janina: jcraig, let's have a regular check-in; any updates on the draft?
17:41:11 <hober> jcraig: working through the open issues as i have time
17:41:27 <jcraig> action-5?
17:41:27 <trackbot> ACTION-5 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to author draft spec. change for james craig to include place holders for agreed upon events today in -- due 2012-08-29 -- OPEN
17:41:27 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/track/actions/5
17:41:28 <hober> jcraig: there's one action item on joseph
17:41:50 <hober> clown: can close it or assign it to jcraig:
17:42:05 <hober> janina: any questions?
17:42:16 <janina> zakim, next item
17:42:16 <Zakim> agendum 6. "Use Cases Walk-Through; Continued http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/wiki/Use_Cases_and_Requirements" taken up [from janina]
17:42:40 <hober> janina: we should focus a significant amount of time at tpac on use cases
17:44:01 <hober> richardschwerdtfe: pick back up at use case 6
17:44:12 <richardschwerdtfe> http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/wiki/Use_Cases_and_Requirements#S6:_Command_move_the_focus_point_within_a_UI_component_down_to_the_next_focusable_item_within_a_UI_component
17:44:15 <clown> http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/wiki/Use_Cases_and_Requirements#S6:_Command_move_the_focus_point_within_a_UI_component_down_to_the_next_focusable_item_within_a_UI_component
17:45:01 <hober> richardschwerdtfe: if you're in a widget and want to move down in the widget, could have a command for that
17:45:29 <hober> jcraig: do we already have something like this?
17:45:51 <clown> q+ to suggest next/previous instead of up/down
17:46:05 <hober> jcraig: it says "move down to the next *focusable* item" instead of just "the next item"
17:46:14 <hober> jcraig: basically the equivalent of TAB or Shift-TAB
17:46:37 <hober> richardschwerdtfe: what terminology would be better?
17:47:04 <hober> jcraig: we could just remove the word "focusable"
17:47:18 <hober> richardschwerdtfe: if you have a list box, going to each of the items
17:47:44 <hober> jcraig: following para might need some wordsmithing, or a note that says this isn't the same as TAB/Shift-TAB
17:48:10 <hober> richardschwerdtfe: maybe "within a ui component"?
17:48:27 <hober> janina: isn't this about local navigation? "local next"/"local previous"
17:48:32 <Ryladog> FYI........Many User cases in this doc have the typo "supports supports" in the first sentence
17:48:39 <hober> jcraig: let's start by taking the word "focusable" out and go from there
17:48:43 <Ryladog> +1 remove word Focus
17:49:01 <hober> richardschwerdtfe: do we need an action item to get this into the spec?
17:49:14 <hober> jcraig: i think the use cases are clear; we should keep working on them in the wiki
17:49:25 <hober> ... some of them are already covered, some aren't
17:49:35 <hober> ... i will do a comparison with the spec
17:49:50 <hober> jcraig: use case 7 also needs that same change
17:50:13 <hober> clown: it shouldn't be down/up, it should be next/previous
17:50:39 <hober> clown: set of items, there's a next/prev relative to where you are
17:50:56 <hober> richardschwerdtfe: left & right v. up & down, we need this separate for two-dimensional widgets
17:50:56 <Ryladog> q+
17:51:11 <Caroline_Jay> q+
17:51:28 <hober> Ryladog: also 3D
17:51:33 <hober> janina: we decided to put 3D off
17:51:46 <hober> clown: in grid, next/prev in row, next/prev in col
17:52:04 <hober> richardschwerdtfe: what about a flow diagram?
17:52:17 <hober> clown: suppose you have a tree like OS X's Finder
17:52:41 <hober> clown: could be rendered on an iPhone as swiping left/right
17:52:44 <hober> clown: still a tree
17:52:50 <jcraig> q+ to mention s8 and s9. I like Joseph's idea of vertical vs linear
17:52:58 <hober> clown: shouldn't be tied to the rendering
17:52:59 <jcraig> ack jo
17:52:59 <Zakim> Joseph_Scheuhammer, you wanted to suggest next/previous instead of up/down
17:53:06 <hober> janina: agree with clown
17:53:09 <jcraig> ack R
17:53:15 <hober> Ryladog: for the moment, yes
17:53:41 <janina> q?
17:53:45 <hober> richardschwerdtfe: how about "in a horizontal direction, next and previous"?
17:53:52 <janina> ack car
17:54:10 <hober> Caroline_Jay: i think this important for grid widgets like date pickers
17:54:23 <hober> Caroline_Jay: i tend to agree with clown
17:54:53 <hober> jcraig: use case 6 through 9 are all in this "linear directional navigation" context
17:55:10 <hober> jcraig: clown had the right idea, this is a general next/previous
17:55:21 <andy> q+
17:55:27 <hober> jcraig: visual left/right is locale dependent
17:55:50 <Ryladog> what about vertical languages?
17:55:51 <hober> jcraig: "general next" and "general previous", which might be left/right in ltr languages
17:56:08 <hober> jcraig: grids might need special directional navigation events
17:56:34 <hober> jcraig: once you're in a managed focus widget like a grid or a tree, then the next/prev is like "change selected value"
17:56:47 <Ryladog> q+
17:56:56 <hober> jcraig: need to indicate that there's a multi-dimensional value change
17:57:06 <janina> q?
17:57:12 <janina> ack jcraig
17:57:12 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to mention s8 and s9. I like Joseph's idea of vertical vs linear
17:57:16 <hober> richardschwerdtfe: you might be moving in increments?
17:57:31 <hober> jcraig: something like a slider, next notch in slider is incrementing the value of the slider
17:57:56 <hober> jcraig: but tree widgets have a selection state; current use case for incrementing slider may also apply for these sorts of cases
17:58:45 <hober> jcraig: we should focus on the primary next/previous instead of left/right
17:58:55 <hober> jcraig: would be good to have special-cased "vertical next/previous"
17:59:00 <hober> jcraig: vertical v. linear
17:59:08 <hober> andy: isn't this just like tab order anyway?
17:59:28 <clown> "it's"
17:59:36 <hober> andy: the case for general next/previous within some order
17:59:55 <hober> andy: what does next/previous mean in a tree with unordered subnodes
18:00:08 <jcraig> q+ to mention this might already be covered by 'point of regard' or AT focus events
18:00:08 <hober> andy: next/prev gets parameter that varies depending on the kind of object
18:00:12 <janina> ack andy
18:00:14 <janina> ack Ryladog 
18:00:22 <hober> Ryladog: definitely don't use right/left due to vertical and rtl languages
18:00:44 <hober> richardschwerdtfe: we've agreed on a next and previous; should i separate out vertical and horizontal?
18:00:54 <hober> jcraig: i'll send an email to the list
18:01:01 <hober> janina: yes, let's do this on the list
18:01:12 <hober> jcraig: it's possible that this is just covered by focus events
18:01:29 <hober> jcraig: we can have a separate at focus (point of regard focus) different from the kbd focus
18:01:51 <hober> jcraig: then we don't need next/prev, we just alert the app "this is the item i'm on"
18:02:03 <hober> Ryladog: richardschwerdtfe, there's diagonal too
18:02:29 <hober> richardschwerdtfe: they had directional work in SVG 1.2 tiny, could look at that
18:02:52 <hober> janina: let's try to figure out how to group these for better tpac time
18:03:01 <hober> janina: next meeting in 2 weeks, wai wg in 1 week
18:03:16 <Zakim> -hober
18:03:18 <Zakim> -[Apple]
18:03:18 <Zakim> -Katie_Haritos-Shea
18:03:20 <Zakim> -Caroline_Jay
18:03:21 <Zakim> -Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:03:23 <Zakim> -Andy_Heath.a
18:03:29 <jcraig> jcraig has left #indie-ui
18:03:33 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
18:03:35 <Zakim> -Janina_Sajka
18:03:39 <hober> RRSAgent, generate minutes
18:03:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/03-indie-ui-minutes.html hober
18:04:03 <Zakim> -Rich
18:04:04 <Zakim> WAI_Indie()1:00PM has ended
18:04:04 <Zakim> Attendees were Janina_Sajka, shepazu, hober, Michael_Cooper, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Andi_Heath, Art_Barstow, Andy_Heath, Rich, +1.626.841.aaaa, Katie_Haritos-Shea, Shawn, jcraig,
18:04:04 <Zakim> ... Caroline_Jay
18:04:16 <hober> RRSAgent: make logs public
18:04:25 <hober> RRSAgent, generate minutes
18:04:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/03-indie-ui-minutes.html hober
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