IRC log of css on 2012-10-03

Timestamps are in UTC.

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15:25:47 [glazou]
Zakim, this will be Style
15:25:47 [Zakim]
ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 35 minutes
15:25:52 [glazou]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:55:58 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
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15:56:25 [SimonSapin]
SimonSapin has joined #css
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15:57:16 [glazou]
Zakim, ??P17 is me
15:57:16 [Zakim]
+glazou; got it
15:58:23 [antonp]
antonp has joined #css
15:58:48 [Zakim]
+ +
15:59:03 [glazou]
Zakim, aaaa is SimonSapin
15:59:03 [Zakim]
+SimonSapin; got it
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+ +1.619.846.aabb
16:00:03 [hober]
Zakim, aabb is me
16:00:03 [Zakim]
+hober; got it
16:00:55 [Zakim]
+ +47.23.69.aacc
16:01:09 [Zakim]
16:01:10 [lstorset]
Zakim, aacc is me
16:01:11 [Zakim]
+lstorset; got it
16:01:32 [koji]
koji has joined #css
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+ +93550aadd
16:01:45 [JohnJansen]
JohnJansen has joined #CSS
16:01:48 [antonp]
Zakim, aadd is me
16:01:48 [Zakim]
+antonp; got it
16:02:03 [JohnJansen]
Zakim, Microsoft has JohnJansen
16:02:03 [Zakim]
+JohnJansen; got it
16:02:04 [Zakim]
16:02:05 [Zakim]
+ +1.604.312.aaee
16:02:16 [rbetts]
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16:02:48 [glazou]
Zakim, aaee is rbetts
16:02:48 [Zakim]
+rbetts; got it
16:03:07 [CesarAcebal]
CesarAcebal has joined #css
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+ +34.60.940.aaff
16:04:02 [glazou]
Zakim, aaff is CesarAcebal
16:04:07 [Zakim]
+CesarAcebal; got it
16:04:31 [glazou]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:04:31 [Zakim]
On the phone I see SylvaIng, glazou, SimonSapin, Stearns, hober, lstorset, antonp, ??P24, rbetts, CesarAcebal
16:04:35 [Zakim]
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16:05:27 [fantasai]
zakim, [Mozilla] is me
16:05:28 [Zakim]
+fantasai; got it
16:05:36 [Zakim]
16:05:42 [koji]
zakim, ??p51 is me
16:05:42 [Zakim]
+koji; got it
16:06:01 [Zakim]
+ +1.408.636.aagg
16:06:09 [Zakim]
16:06:11 [smfr]
Zakim, aagg is me
16:06:11 [Zakim]
+smfr; got it
16:06:26 [glazou]
Zakim, ?P53 is me
16:06:26 [Zakim]
sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named '?P53'
16:06:29 [Zakim]
+ +1.253.307.aahh
16:06:34 [glazou]
Zakim, ?P53 is rossen
16:06:34 [Zakim]
sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named '?P53'
16:06:40 [glazou]
Zakim, ??P53 is rossen
16:06:40 [Zakim]
+rossen; got it
16:07:11 [glazou]
Zakim, aahh is arron
16:07:11 [Zakim]
+arron; got it
16:07:40 [antonp]
ScribeNick: antonp
16:07:59 [antonp]
glazou: extra items?
16:08:04 [Zakim]
+ +1.281.305.aaii
16:08:16 [glazou]
Zakim, aaii is TabAtkins
16:08:16 [Zakim]
+TabAtkins; got it
16:08:29 [antonp]
TOPIC: test the web forward
16:08:33 [stearns]
16:08:48 [antonp]
stearns: Registration of the event is now open; please evangelize!
16:09:27 [antonp]
TOPIC: TV/Mobile/Print Profiles
16:09:45 [antonp]
glazou: Bert raised this, but he's not on the call
16:10:11 [antonp]
glazou: Bert suggests moving these specs to Note status, since they're going nowhere. I think it's reasonable
16:10:19 [antonp]
??: I agree
16:10:33 [fantasai]
fantasai: I strongly agree
16:10:33 [stearns]
16:10:37 [antonp]
glazou: a Note is informational. It's not a Rec track document
16:10:47 [fantasai]
fantasai: We have to update all the references, though
16:11:03 [antonp]
Rossen: What does it take to put a doc on the Rec track again?
16:11:29 [antonp]
glazou: it can come back, but with the usual administrative overhead of any other REC track doc
16:11:36 [antonp]
glazou: we're not changing the contents of the doc
16:11:53 [antonp]
sylvaing: will the URL change?
16:12:21 [antonp]
glazou: I will discuss with Bert. We still want the same URLs, but perhaps they could redirect elsewhere or else a notice describing the move
16:12:28 [antonp]
fantasai: I don't think it'll be a problem
16:12:36 [antonp]
glazou: No objections?
16:12:54 [antonp]
RESOLVED: the three docs (TV, Mobile, Print Profile) will be moved to Notes
16:13:00 [glazou]
16:13:06 [antonp]
TOPIC: Case sensitivity of user-defined identifiers
16:13:25 [antonp]
TabAtkins: a blocking issue remains on the drafts
16:13:47 [antonp]
[Tab explains the issue]
16:14:14 [cabanier]
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16:14:49 [antonp]
TabAtkins: At a minimum, Need to make User-Defined Identifiers (UDIs) ASCII case-insensitive, the same as Language-Defined Identifiers (LDIs)
16:14:59 [antonp]
[Tab explains]
16:15:14 [antonp]
fantasai: Unicode provides case-folding algorithms
16:15:21 [Katie]
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16:15:31 [antonp]
fantasai: Options 1: ASCII-only folding; confusing for users
16:15:41 [antonp]
TabAtkins: but it's consistent with how HTML works
16:16:19 [antonp]
TabAtkins: getElementById method, IDs are case-insensitive
16:16:25 [Zakim]
+ +1.206.427.aajj
16:16:28 [antonp]
... in the ASCII range
16:16:32 [antonp]
... it's a legacy constraint
16:16:39 [antonp]
... they do show up in UDIs
16:16:52 [Katie]
Zakim, aajj has me.
16:16:52 [Zakim]
+Katie; got it
16:17:02 [antonp]
TabAtkins: Option 2: Latin-based case insensitivity
16:17:09 [antonp]
...: Option 3: some hybrid
16:17:28 [antonp]
glazou: When you refer to Latin, do you refer to the space or to the characters. They're not the same
16:17:40 [antonp]
fantasai: we could do the full set of Latin characters, but not any other script
16:17:52 [antonp]
glazou: so the space; é is one single glyph
16:18:04 [antonp]
...: we should be aware that é can be formed in several different ways
16:18:23 [antonp]
fantasai: there's lots of discussion recently; not sure we can close the issue; I18N needs to comment
16:18:33 [antonp]
...: would be a good F2F issue for joint groups
16:18:49 [antonp]
glazou: needs more investigation than only CSSWG; touches many areas
16:19:08 [antonp]
ACTION: TabAtkins to e-mail I18N
16:19:08 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find TabAtkins. You can review and register nicknames at <>.
16:19:24 [antonp]
glazou: would like dbaron and howcome to be involved
16:19:40 [Zakim]
16:19:54 [antonp]
ACTION: glazou to schedule a joint meeting with I18N
16:19:54 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-510 - Schedule a joint meeting with I18N [on Daniel Glazman - due 2012-10-10].
16:19:57 [glazou]
16:19:59 [Zakim]
+ +1.415.832.aakk
16:20:04 [krit]
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16:20:05 [antonp]
TOPIC: anti-aliasing on Mac
16:20:13 [antonp]
TabAtkins: it's font-hinting, not anti-aliasing
16:20:28 [krit]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:20:28 [Zakim]
On the phone I see SylvaIng, glazou, SimonSapin, Stearns, hober, lstorset, antonp, ??P24, rbetts, CesarAcebal, SteveZ, fantasai, koji, smfr, rossen, arron, TabAtkins,
16:20:31 [Zakim]
... +1.206.427.aajj, Bert, +1.415.832.aakk
16:20:31 [Zakim]
+1.206.427.aajj has Katie
16:20:34 [antonp]
... native font engine makes the characters fatter than they appear elsewhere eg Win/ Linux
16:20:49 [antonp]
... in some situations we can't do proper hinting, eg in rotated text or 3D
16:20:51 [krit]
zakim, aakk is me
16:20:51 [Zakim]
+krit; got it
16:21:04 [antonp]
... Switching between the two causes a drastic visual change
16:21:25 [glazou]
hi krit
16:21:32 [antonp]
... I need to figure out what other folks are doing for the Mac
16:21:33 [Zakim]
16:21:40 [antonp]
... Should this be an issue for the WG?
16:21:42 [JohnJansen]
Zakim, Microsoft has JohnJansen
16:21:42 [Zakim]
+JohnJansen; got it
16:21:49 [Katie_]
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16:21:55 [antonp]
... Which solutions have others come up with?
16:22:04 [antonp]
... I'd like to know
16:22:25 [antonp]
Leif: I started looked into it, but haven't got feedback yet
16:22:32 [Katie]
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16:22:36 [antonp]
TabAtkins: OK, I'll take it up again next week
16:23:01 [antonp]
Bert: I understand there's a problem, but are you looking for a solution from WG?
16:23:31 [antonp]
TabAtkins: Don't know; would like to hear from other implementers to understand whether this is something our team can fix on our own or whether it's a WG issue
16:23:40 [glazou]
Zakim, mute TabAtkins
16:23:40 [Zakim]
TabAtkins should now be muted
16:24:02 [Rossen]
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16:24:46 [antonp]
smfr: Apple is aware of the problem; not sure it's accurate to say that hinting is the difference. Involves gamma correction amongst other causes. We've experimented with some APIs but we haven't got improvements in all cases
16:25:03 [antonp]
...: I don't think there's an implementation solution for this. Implies that maybe we need a CSS thing to fix this
16:25:09 [glazou]
Zakim, unmute TabAtkins
16:25:09 [Zakim]
TabAtkins should no longer be muted
16:25:11 [Zakim]
16:25:12 [Zakim]
16:25:34 [Rossen]
Zakim, [Microsoft.a] is me
16:25:34 [Zakim]
+Rossen; got it
16:26:27 [antonp]
TabAtkins: I'll hold up on this topic for the moment
16:26:30 [glazou]
16:26:36 [antonp]
TOPIC: text-decoration
16:26:44 [glazou]
data:text/html,<!doctype html><s>foo<font size=7>bar</font>baz</s>
16:26:47 [antonp]
glazou: raised by Aryeh Gregor
16:27:23 [antonp]
fantasai: the strike-through will be skimming along the bottom of the glyphs instead of going through them; this is because we dictate only one position for the strike-through
16:27:59 [antonp]
...: Aryeh's solution is to put the underline wherever it's supposed to be... but that leads to jumping around. Can cause lots of jitter in lots of cases. I don't think it's a good solution
16:28:41 [antonp]
...: Suggestion: pick one position, and that position has to stay constant, [...]
16:28:54 [antonp]
fantasai: MS Word changes the position of the underline with every change in font styling
16:29:02 [antonp]
...: and vertical align switches
16:29:13 [antonp]
glazou: yep, I just tried in Word on Mac
16:29:40 [antonp]
SteveZ: I support your position that the underline ought to be calculated for the whole stretch... but how much is the strikethrough problem an issue in reality
16:30:13 [antonp]
fantasai: for people trying to use HTML as a word-processor format, the visual results are undesirable
16:30:24 [antonp]
glazou: the usual rendering for DEL is strike-through
16:30:33 [antonp]
glazou: it's probably not too common
16:30:41 [glazou]
16:30:58 [antonp]
TabAtkins: Suggestion is reasonable
16:31:04 [fantasai]
fantasai: because WYSWYG editing results in two nested elements, and it's a problem if the outer element is carrying the line and font size changes on the inner one
16:31:10 [antonp]
SteveZ: It'll be hard to get interop, so bugs would be filed
16:31:36 [antonp]
fantasai: I don't think the threshold would handle vertical alignment though. I think you'd have to ignore vertical alignment when doing these things
16:32:10 [antonp]
fantasai: One of the problems with an overline is that if the font-size increases then the overline looks like a strike-through
16:32:16 [antonp]
...: need intelligent averaging
16:32:31 [antonp]
...: the problematic case seems to be immediate nesting; that case is solved by averaging
16:32:47 [antonp]
glazou: What about overline? The original usecase?
16:33:03 [antonp]
fantasai: the overline looks like a strike-through, which is a problem
16:33:31 [antonp]
glazou: what do you want to overline? the whole element, or the characters inside? Is there one overline for the whole thing, above the highest thing? Or one per sub-element?
16:33:52 [antonp]
fantasai: neither. If the elements don't change size much; you want a common line. If there is, then the line should break
16:34:12 [antonp]
glazou: I tend to agree with the proposal
16:34:15 [antonp]
TabAtkins: yes
16:34:28 [antonp]
fantasai: So, how do you implement and test the proposal?
16:34:46 [antonp]
TabAtkins: I don't see the problem. [...]
16:35:01 [antonp]
SteveZ: Must define it with an understanding that there can be hanging fonts
16:35:04 [stearns]
I think any automatic behavior is going to be inadequate. underline-offset and underline-weight, etc. would be the way to solve this
16:35:26 [antonp]
TabAtkins: definition should be relative to the baseline, so that in a centred font the line would go through the centre
16:35:38 [fantasai]
stearns, a fixed offset won't help here
16:35:50 [antonp]
SteveZ: this is a trigger that says that we'll break sequences of lines when the difference is bigger than a threshold
16:36:15 [antonp]
smfr: I haven't looked into this much
16:36:26 [antonp]
glazou: do folks want a week more to look into this
16:36:35 [fantasai]
ACTION fantasai: write this up, with examples
16:36:35 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-511 - Write this up, with examples [on Elika Etemad - due 2012-10-10].
16:36:53 [antonp]
glazou: topic deferred to next week.
16:37:01 [glazou]
16:37:15 [antonp]
TOPIC: stacking contexts for position:fixed
16:37:54 [antonp]
sylvaing: should position:fixed elements create a stacking context?
16:38:07 [antonp]
...: Microsoft are unconvinced about compat; reluctant to make a change
16:38:14 [glazou]
Zakim, mute me
16:38:14 [Zakim]
glazou should now be muted
16:38:23 [glazou]
Zakim, unmute me
16:38:23 [Zakim]
glazou should no longer be muted
16:38:25 [antonp]
TabAtkins: on mobile this happens, because fixpos is hard on mobile and this simplifies it
16:38:47 [antonp]
...: easier to optimize scrolling on our mobile browser, if stacking context formed.
16:39:13 [antonp]
sylvaing: I'd like to see what makes you believe that. And are the sites in question designed for mobile web or for *webkit* mobile web?
16:39:40 [antonp]
...: fixpos is a mess, so people relying on it doesn't tell us too much
16:39:51 [antonp]
TabAtkins: the scrolling people tell me this change would help
16:40:22 [antonp]
smfr: I implemented it on iOS and on desktop Safari. The proposed change makes implementation much easier
16:40:42 [antonp]
sylvain: so because it helps Webkit, we should adopt this change for CSS?
16:41:26 [antonp]
smfr: well, yes... we didn't find any big compat problem. Google also did some research and didn't find compat problem either
16:41:37 [antonp]
..: I think it's a reasonable change
16:41:56 [antonp]
TabAtkins: It's bizarre to interleave into a fixpos element
16:42:17 [antonp]
TabAtkins: we think it's a reasonable change
16:42:35 [antonp]
??: is this change in current versions of chrome?
16:42:43 [glazou]
16:42:56 [antonp]
smfr: no desktop Chrome or Safari has released this yet.
16:43:04 [antonp]
TabAtkins: we've got Canary builds with this thing in
16:43:13 [antonp]
smfr: the sites that were broken are mostly Google properties
16:43:44 [antonp]
TabAtkins: and in those sites we didn't /need/ the behaviour which was breaking; it was accidental and we could work around the breakage
16:44:01 [antonp]
glazou: I haven't heard general agreement about this change
16:44:17 [antonp]
sylvaing: need more research
16:44:34 [antonp]
TabAtkins: I'll provide examples
16:44:52 [Zakim]
16:45:02 [antonp]
Rossen(?): The overall intention doesn't seem crazy. But I would like to know what the damage would be across both mobile /and/ desktop
16:45:20 [antonp]
...: please provide examples
16:45:21 [SimonSapin]
+1 for this change, it makes implementation (and thus my job) much easier. But I don’t know about web compat.
16:45:25 [antonp]
...: then we can make a group decision
16:45:38 [antonp]
TabAtkins: this change would also affect stickypos
16:46:09 [fantasai]
antonp: Does the stacking context section of CSS2.1 explicitly distinguish between abspos and fixedpos?
16:46:19 [fantasai]
antonp: fixedpos is considered abspos in most parts of CSS2.1
16:46:33 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: issue is that abspos is auto, doesn't create a stacking context necessarily
16:46:35 [Zakim]
16:46:41 [antonp]
TabAtkins: This issue is fixpos with z-index:auto - we want /that/ to form a stackign context
16:47:03 [glazou]
16:47:16 [antonp]
TOPIC: transform-origin-x/y
16:47:39 [Zakim]
16:47:44 [antonp]
krit(?): Boris noted that apparently WebKit implements transform-origin-x and transform-origin-y properties. Should these be in the spec, perhaps?
16:47:58 [antonp]
TabAtkins: I think it's a reasonable set of properties
16:48:20 [antonp]
smfr: we should be consistent with properties which reference points and offsets, whcih don't have separate x/y properties
16:48:36 [antonp]
fantasai: in the case of backgrounds, where we have keywords it's hard to split it out
16:48:58 [antonp]
...: transform-origin properties don't accept keywords so don't suffer from the awkward issues
16:48:59 [sylvaing]
x/y/z longhands is kind of natural for animations
16:49:14 [antonp]
TabAtkins: We don't want to do logical coordinates for transform-origin. Unlikely.
16:49:29 [fantasai]
fantasai^: especially if we accept to add logical keywords, which i18n has been requesting for a long time and which we deferred to level 4
16:49:42 [antonp]
TabAtkins: so, webkit already does this
16:49:56 [antonp]
Bert: What is the use case? Yet more properties.. are they useful?
16:50:52 [fantasai]
?: Easier to animate when split up
16:51:07 [fantasai]
fantasai: I can see wanting to animate axes separately for transforms
16:51:16 [fantasai]
fantasai: Definitely would want that to be easier
16:51:30 [fantasai]
fantasai: but for transform-origin, seems unlikely to be popular
16:52:26 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Are there other places where we'd want to split this
16:52:37 [fantasai]
smfr: perspective-origin
16:52:39 [antonp]
Sylvain: Could be fun to transform the origin
16:52:39 [antonp]
glazou: is there any objection from vendors?
16:52:39 [antonp]
sylvaing: do we do this only for origin? Why not other properties?
16:52:39 [antonp]
TabAtkins: it's definitely the only place in /transforms/
16:52:39 [antonp]
smfr: no, there's perspective origin
16:52:52 [smfr]
16:53:25 [antonp]
TabAtkins: If you want to spin around the DOM structure: a) move the perspective origin (camera) or (b) move everything else. (a) is easy
16:54:01 [antonp]
glazou: the possibilities opened seem to be cool, but I need more than that to make a resolution
16:54:12 [antonp]
fantasai: i'd like to defer until dbaron has commented
16:54:12 [glazou]
16:54:22 [glazou]
sorry, coughing
16:54:35 [antonp]
fantasai: re animations, seems more important to make transform itself easier to animate, rather than split up
16:54:48 [fantasai]
16:54:48 [antonp]
glazou: OK, perhaps defer to F2F
16:55:07 [antonp]
glazou: 5 mins left. Anything else?
16:55:17 [antonp]
fantasai: Prioritization of specs
16:55:35 [antonp]
glazou: I started aggregating the data. Today I got the answer from W3C. I didn't finish (I was sick for a while)
16:55:43 [antonp]
..: I'm still missing a few people
16:55:49 [antonp]
... you know who you are ;-)
16:56:13 [Zakim]
16:56:15 [Zakim]
16:56:17 [Zakim]
16:56:18 [Zakim]
16:56:30 [Zakim]
16:56:31 [Zakim]
- +1.206.427.aajj
16:56:31 [antonp]
fantasai: Reminder that we're planning to take css3-conditional to LC next week
16:56:32 [Zakim]
16:56:32 [Zakim]
16:56:34 [Zakim]
16:56:34 [Zakim]
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16:56:36 [CesarAcebal]
CesarAcebal has left #css
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disconnecting the lone participant, ??P24, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
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Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
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Attendees were SylvaIng, glazou, +, SimonSapin, Stearns, +1.619.846.aabb, hober, +47.23.69.aacc, lstorset, +93550aadd, antonp, JohnJansen, +1.604.312.aaee, rbetts,
17:05:02 [Zakim]
... +34.60.940.aaff, CesarAcebal, SteveZ, fantasai, koji, +1.408.636.aagg, smfr, +1.253.307.aahh, rossen, arron, +1.281.305.aaii, TabAtkins, Katie, Bert, +1.415.832.aakk, krit,
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... [Microsoft]
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