15:01:18 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #html-media
15:01:18 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/10/02-html-media-irc
15:01:20 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:01:20 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #html-media
15:01:22 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 63342
15:01:22 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see HTML_WG()11:00AM scheduled to start now
15:01:23 <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Media Task Force Teleconference
15:01:23 <trackbot> Date: 02 October 2012
15:01:41 <matt> zakim, who is here?
15:01:42 <Zakim> HTML_WG()11:00AM has not yet started, matt
15:01:42 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, joesteele, Clarke, pal, ddorwin, MikeSmith, johnsim-msft, adrianba, trackbot, matt
15:01:45 <matt> zakim, dial matt-voip
15:01:46 <Zakim> ok, matt; the call is being made
15:03:15 <johnsim-msft> 2. Previous meeting minutes on Sep 18 http://www.w3.org/2012/09/18-html-media-minutes.html  
15:04:01 <joesteele> ScribeNick: joesteele
15:04:50 <joesteele> Topic: Review action items
15:04:50 <johnsim-msft> https://www.w3.org/html/wg/media/track/
15:04:53 <BobLund> BobLund has joined #html-media
15:05:14 <johnsim-msft> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17682
15:05:36 <joesteele> johnsim-msft: propose a solution to the clear key bug, did add a comment a few minutes ago bug#17682
15:05:46 <matt> zakim, drop me
15:05:46 <Zakim> sorry, matt, I don't know what conference this is
15:05:48 <joesteele> johnsim-msft: some others we could discuss as well
15:06:08 <matt> zakim, list
15:06:08 <Zakim> I see Team_Validat()11:00AM, SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM, WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM, XML_ET-TF()11:00AM, SW_(FORCE)11:00AM, HTML_WG()11:00AM, IA_Team()10:00AM, SW_HCLS()11:00AM active
15:06:10 <johnsim-msft> http://tinyurl.com/7tfambo
15:06:12 <Zakim> also scheduled at this time are HTML_WG(HTMLT)11:00AM, RWC_WebEven()11:00AM, SW_RIF()11:00AM, VB_VBWG()10:00AM, T&S_XMLSEC()10:00AM, WAI_PFWG(HTML_TF)11:00AM,
15:06:12 <Zakim> ... WAI_UAWG(CHAIRS)10:30AM
15:06:34 <joesteele> johnsim-msft: no analysis yet on closing these bugs
15:06:55 <matt> zakim, this is media
15:06:55 <Zakim> ok, matt; that matches HTML_WG()11:00AM
15:07:00 <matt> zakim, who is on the call?
15:07:00 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.415.867.aaaa, +1.425.202.aabb, +1.408.536.aacc, [Microsoft], +1.650.458.aadd, +1.720.934.aaee
15:07:03 <matt> zakim, dial matt-voip
15:07:03 <Zakim> ok, matt; the call is being made
15:07:04 <Zakim> +Matt
15:07:16 <joesteele> Title: HTML-Media
15:07:21 <matt> zakim, mute me
15:07:21 <Zakim> Matt should now be muted
15:07:30 <Zakim> + +1.858.677.aaff
15:07:31 <pal> zakim, who's here?
15:07:31 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.415.867.aaaa, +1.425.202.aabb, +1.408.536.aacc, [Microsoft], Matt (muted), +1.650.458.aadd, +1.720.934.aaee, +1.858.677.aaff
15:07:31 <Zakim> On IRC I see BobLund, Zakim, RRSAgent, joesteele, Clarke, pal, ddorwin, MikeSmith, johnsim-msft, adrianba, trackbot, matt
15:07:49 <matt> zakim, unmute me
15:07:49 <Zakim> Matt should no longer be muted
15:07:55 <pal> zakim, I am aadd
15:07:55 <Zakim> +pal; got it
15:08:14 <joesteele> Meeting: HTML Media Extensions
15:08:18 <ddorwin> zakim, I am aabb
15:08:18 <Zakim> +ddorwin; got it
15:08:30 <johnsim-msft> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17673 container guidelines https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17682 clear key https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19208 keymessage event not needed https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19156 switching decoders 
15:08:34 <Zakim> +Aaron_Colwell
15:08:51 <Clarke> Zakim, 934.aaee is me
15:08:51 <Zakim> sorry, Clarke, I do not recognize a party named '934.aaee'
15:08:58 <joesteele> johnsim: container guidelines bug
15:09:01 <matt> zakim, mute me
15:09:02 <Zakim> Matt should now be muted
15:09:12 <joesteele> johnsim: I had an action item on this. 
15:09:42 <joesteele> johnsim: new bug coming on ISO based media file formats should have stronger guidelines when a CDM has a key in it storage
15:09:59 <joesteele> ddorwin: no preference on order
15:10:05 <Zakim> - +1.415.867.aaaa
15:10:12 <joesteele> johnsim: starting with container guidelines bug
15:10:21 <Zakim> +??P46
15:10:27 <joesteele> … exchanged some email on this and added to the bug
15:10:40 <joesteele> … new bug is 19208
15:10:56 <BobLund> zakim, ??p46 is me
15:10:56 <Zakim> +BobLund; got it
15:10:59 <Zakim> + +1.415.867.aagg
15:11:19 <matt> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:11:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see ddorwin, +1.408.536.aacc, [Microsoft], Matt (muted), pal, +1.720.934.aaee, +1.858.677.aaff, Aaron_Colwell, BobLund, +1.415.867.aagg
15:11:35 <joesteele> johnsim: this is specific to the COmmon Encryption Format specification
15:11:46 <joesteele> johnsim: please read the bug online
15:12:11 <joesteele> johnsim: this is the proposed language for the ISOBMFF guidelines
15:12:35 <joesteele> … captures enough of how to detect encryption and extract the metadata needed from those files
15:12:46 <joesteele> … does raise some issues about initialization and events
15:13:34 <joesteele> … there are cases where the CDM does not need to issue a key message event
15:14:01 <joesteele> … any comments or concerns, David?
15:14:07 <joesteele> ddorwin: no comments
15:14:25 <joesteele> johnsim: next bug is bug#17682 (clear key bug)
15:14:39 <joesteele> … documents how keys and key ids are associated
15:14:41 <BobLund> mute
15:14:47 <joesteele> … added a brief comment to the end of the spec
15:14:57 <BobLund> mute me
15:15:06 <joesteele> johnsim: how clear key works should be the same as the CDM
15:15:14 <joesteele> Zakim, mute BobLund
15:15:14 <Zakim> BobLund should now be muted
15:15:48 <joesteele> johnsim: should be defined by the W3C since this is strictly a W3C concept
15:16:19 <joesteele> … data blob specific to CDM is in the spec, in the case of clear key just a key
15:16:40 <joesteele> … need to define how clearKey is initialized or any media format is supported
15:17:03 <joesteele> … propose some draft language based on some email traffic to be sent to general rflector
15:17:07 <ddorwin> q+
15:17:16 <joesteele> johnsim: need to add language for other formats
15:17:19 <ddorwin> ack d
15:17:41 <Zakim> + +1.650.253.aahh
15:17:45 <joesteele> ddorwin: for ClearKey specific stuff, and ISO, nothing to define just a keyid
15:17:53 <joesteele> … for other containers need to define
15:18:06 <joesteele> … this is part#1 of the bug, part#2 is the license 
15:18:18 <joesteele> … this is the harder part, need to define key/keyid pairing
15:18:35 <joesteele> johnsim: there have been some proposals out there
15:18:42 <strobe> strobe has joined #html-media
15:18:48 <markw> markw has joined #html-media
15:18:55 <markw> q+
15:19:01 <joesteele> johnsim: do you mean a defined data structure like a license being passed down?
15:19:05 <joesteele> ddorwin: yes
15:19:31 <joesteele> … in the old version for WebM has a simple definition but this has been removed 
15:19:39 <joesteele> … need a license to provide more than one key
15:20:09 <joesteele> markw: need to say how do we support more than one key at a time?
15:20:34 <joesteele> ddorwin: want clearKey to be as capable as other CDMs to use for prototyping
15:20:40 <joesteele> … maybe use JSON or something
15:21:15 <joesteele> johnsim: we are talking about the analog to a license for clearKey, requirement is that is be capable of communicating more than one key/keyID pair
15:21:21 <joesteele> … I am a little hazy on that
15:21:27 <markw> q-
15:21:31 <joesteele> … init data would have to report more than one
15:21:45 <joesteele> ddorwin: nothing that says you have to have more than one keyid
15:22:10 <ddorwin> s/have to have/can't have/
15:22:16 <joesteele> johnsim: keyed is really a meta keyed which tells the server to deliver more than one key at once
15:22:49 <joesteele> s/meta keyed/meta-key/
15:23:15 <joesteele> ddorwin: might need to be base64-encoded JSON but moves a little away from original spirit
15:23:31 <joesteele> johnsim: some work on this in the webCrypto group
15:23:51 <ddorwin> where the spirit was to be able to easily specify a key in JS
15:24:04 <joesteele> markw: you mean how keys are encoded? we just specify an arrayBuffer of the raw bytes at this point
15:24:24 <joesteele> johnsim: so this action item is still open. Need to propose license structure for clearKey
15:24:36 <joesteele> johnsim: should we move on?
15:25:02 <joesteele> johnsim: jumping to switching decoders bug #19156
15:25:17 <joesteele> … has been some discussion but no replies yet
15:25:37 <joesteele> ddorwin: unlike clearKey some CDMs will include decoders and/or rendering pipelines
15:25:50 <joesteele> … this means you may be picking a decoder by picking a CDM
15:26:14 <joesteele> … this may cause a switch in the decoder being used
15:26:22 <joesteele> … what should we do in that case?
15:26:29 <joesteele> … should we spec it away?
15:26:40 <strobe> q+
15:26:40 <joesteele> aaron: should not spec it away at this point
15:26:57 <markw> q+
15:27:00 <joesteele> … could be implementation
15:27:21 <joesteele> johnsim: could have portions encrypted and some not
15:27:32 <joesteele> aaron: thinking of the case where content comes from multiple files
15:27:48 <joesteele> johnsim: the metadata would be from different files in this case?
15:28:14 <joesteele> aaron: starting with unencrypted file and moving to encrypted file, should not cause decoding to stop
15:28:38 <joesteele> ddorwin: need to specify the decoder up front
15:28:49 <joesteele> … how does media source handle this?
15:29:01 <joesteele> …  currently only one key system allowed er media element
15:29:09 <strobe> q-
15:29:09 <joesteele> s/er media/per media/
15:29:28 <joesteele> markw: currently decoder is not allowed to change
15:29:43 <joesteele> .. prefer not to prevent it for now if possible
15:30:13 <joesteele> markw: will comment on the bug
15:30:46 <joesteele> s:/markw: will comment/aaron: will comment/
15:31:35 <joesteele> aaron: as long as you are only switching during media segment boundaries, should avoid this problem
15:32:08 <joesteele> aaron: could have the CDM disable encryption when clear frames comes through
15:32:23 <joesteele> markw: you need the CDM to be able to handle this already
15:33:50 <joesteele> this is an issue for ad-insertion
15:34:11 <markw> my point was just that (i) the CDM should be able to cope with unencrypted samples and (ii) the first encrypted sample and all subsequent samples must not depend on any samples before the first encrypted sample
15:35:12 <joesteele> johnsim: so we will add comments to the thread on this?
15:35:31 <joesteele> ddorwin: will reply with what I heard
15:35:41 <joesteele> johnsim: moving to bug#19208
15:36:01 <joesteele> … based on the container guideline bug
15:36:21 <joesteele> … came across a case where the keyMessage event might not be needed
15:36:31 <joesteele> … David pointed out this contradicts the spec
15:36:58 <joesteele> … bug is -- if a session is created which activates a CDM, and key storage already has a key, no need for a keyMessage event
15:37:16 <joesteele> … David, what do you think? 
15:37:29 <joesteele> ddorwin: does not violate the spirit of the spec
15:37:49 <joesteele> … but we might need to change the text of the algorithm (BMFF text)
15:37:59 <joesteele> johnsim: you don't disagree then
15:38:12 <joesteele> ddorwin: don't have any objections, but would like feedback and thought
15:38:34 <joesteele> ddorwin: calling createSession would not cause a message to the app, which is a little strange
15:39:05 <joesteele> johnsim: had discussions about the event corresponding to a key successfully being extracted
15:39:24 <joesteele> … is the a need for that event (e.g. a null-key messages)
15:39:42 <joesteele> ddorwin: we have KEYERROR we could add a HAVE_A_KEY_ERROR
15:40:08 <joesteele> … createSession could return a reference to an existing session - need to think about that more
15:40:21 <joesteele> … would not matter so much whether you got another message then
15:40:33 <joesteele> johnsim: any other thoughts on this issue?
15:40:53 <joesteele> johnsim: going back to the list of open bugs
15:40:55 <ddorwin> s/HAVE_A_KEY_ERROR/ALREADY_HAVE_A_LICENSE_ERROR/
15:41:25 <ddorwin> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18531
15:41:44 <joesteele> johnsim: renaming addKey
15:41:51 <ddorwin> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2012Sep/0045.html
15:42:03 <glenn> glenn has joined #html-media
15:42:22 <joesteele> markw: there was a couple of suggestions -- update() was the only one commented on
15:42:41 <joesteele> markw: would suggest we go with that
15:42:51 <joesteele> I like update()
15:43:17 <joesteele> ddorwin: only concern is that in the general case we are adding a license
15:43:53 <joesteele> johnsim: you are really adding things -- more than an update 
15:44:32 <joesteele> markw: update() means providing more information
15:44:48 <ddorwin> http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/update
15:44:55 <joesteele> johnsim; connotation of providing entirely different information and adding values 
15:45:15 <ddorwin> http://mw1.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/update
15:45:17 <joesteele> johnsim: there are quite a few open bugs
15:45:24 <ddorwin> transitive verb: to bring up to date
15:45:42 <Zakim> -BobLund
15:45:42 <joesteele> johnsim: what is the status for the open bugs?
15:46:52 <johnsim-msft> http://tinyurl.com/7tfambo
15:46:55 <joesteele> I did not get to the example I was to do.
15:47:43 <joesteele> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16540
15:48:29 <joesteele> johnsim: are folks attending the TPAC meeting?
15:48:37 <joesteele> ddorwin: yes I will be
15:48:45 <joesteele> I am not going at this point
15:48:47 <Zakim> -Aaron_Colwell
15:49:19 <joesteele> johnsim: encourage everyone on the call with open bugs to resolve or start a thread on these bugs ASAP
15:49:31 <joesteele> … want to reach closure at TPAC or before if possible
15:49:38 <joesteele> ddorwin: many are editorial
15:49:42 <Zakim> +Aaron_Colwell
15:50:16 <joesteele> johnsim: would be great to pull out the substantial bugs
15:50:27 <joesteele> … design questions, etc
15:50:47 <joesteele> … any that sit at the top of the list as needs resolving?
15:51:01 <joesteele> ddorwin: the clearKey bug must be resolved
15:51:04 <adrianba> we don't have to close every bug - we need to ensure the document covers the desired scope before we ask for FPWD
15:51:27 <joesteele> ddorwin: needKey is another one
15:51:38 <joesteele> johnsim: which is the needKey?
15:52:24 <joesteele> ddorwin: will try to get the other bug I need to file out
15:52:29 <joesteele> … and send an email
15:53:10 <joesteele> ddorwin: no major changes to the spec in these bugs
15:53:29 <joesteele> johnsim: concern about the specs fitting together?
15:53:45 <joesteele> s/aaron:/Aaron_Colwell:/
15:54:16 <joesteele> ddorwin: MSE is another source for the URL should work together, might need to discuss advanced use cases
15:54:28 <joesteele> … new segments from other key systems, etc.
15:54:59 <joesteele> markw: will scribe for next meeting
15:55:16 <joesteele> ddorwin: TPAC is on the 29th
15:55:30 <joesteele> johnsim: next EME call will be the last one before the TPAC
15:55:54 <joesteele> johnsim: would like to discuss how we can use the TPAC to advance the spec on the next call
15:56:12 <joesteele> johnsim: would like to resolve as many bugs as possible before than as well
15:56:34 <joesteele> johnsim: David the issues you raised we should really resolve
15:56:53 <joesteele> johnsim: raises our chances of coming out with a good draft
15:57:34 <joesteele> Zakim, who is here?
15:57:34 <Zakim> On the phone I see ddorwin, +1.408.536.aacc, [Microsoft], Matt (muted), pal, +1.720.934.aaee, +1.858.677.aaff, +1.415.867.aagg, +1.650.253.aahh, Aaron_Colwell
15:57:37 <Zakim> On IRC I see glenn, markw, strobe, Zakim, RRSAgent, joesteele, pal, ddorwin, MikeSmith, johnsim-msft, adrianba, trackbot, matt
15:57:46 <Zakim> - +1.858.677.aaff
15:57:50 <joesteele> johnsim: pretty much done
15:57:50 <Zakim> -Aaron_Colwell
15:57:52 <matt> zakim, drop me
15:57:52 <Zakim> Matt is being disconnected
15:57:52 <joesteele> bye all
15:57:58 <Zakim> -Matt
15:57:59 <Zakim> - +1.415.867.aagg
15:58:04 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
15:58:11 <joesteele> zakim, list participants
15:58:11 <Zakim> - +1.408.536.aacc
15:58:14 <Zakim> - +1.720.934.aaee
15:58:15 <Zakim> -pal
15:58:19 <Zakim> - +1.650.253.aahh
15:58:20 <joesteele> rrsagent, please draft minutes
15:58:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/02-html-media-minutes.html joesteele
15:58:31 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +1.415.867.aaaa, +1.425.202.aabb, +1.408.536.aacc, [Microsoft], Matt, +1.650.458.aadd, +1.720.934.aaee, +1.858.677.aaff, pal, ddorwin,
15:58:38 <Zakim> ... Aaron_Colwell, BobLund, +1.415.867.aagg, +1.650.253.aahh
15:58:45 <joesteele> zakim, excuse us
15:58:45 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were +1.415.867.aaaa, +1.425.202.aabb, +1.408.536.aacc, [Microsoft], Matt, +1.650.458.aadd, +1.720.934.aaee, +1.858.677.aaff, pal, ddorwin,
15:58:45 <Zakim> Zakim has left #html-media
15:58:49 <Zakim> ... Aaron_Colwell, BobLund, +1.415.867.aagg, +1.650.253.aahh
15:58:52 <joesteele> rrsagent, excuse us
15:58:52 <RRSAgent> I see no action items