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14:52:19 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/09/27-html-a11y-irc
14:52:21 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
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14:52:23 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2119
14:52:23 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM scheduled to start 52 minutes ago
14:52:24 <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:52:24 <trackbot> Date: 27 September 2012
14:52:34 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM has now started
14:52:41 <Zakim> +??P32
14:52:50 <janina> zakim, ??P32 is Janina
14:52:50 <Zakim> +Janina; got it
14:53:15 <janina> Meeting: HTML-A11Y Task Force Teleconference
14:53:15 <janina> Chair: Janina_Sajka
14:53:15 <janina> agenda+ Plan2014 (Revision 2) Discussion https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2012JulSep/0312.html
14:53:18 <janina> agenda+ HTML Sec. 7.1. Hidden http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/editing.html#the-hidden-attribute
14:53:21 <janina> agenda+ The Task Force at the TPAC
14:53:23 <janina> agenda+ Other Business
14:53:26 <janina> agenda+ Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open
14:53:28 <janina> agenda+ Identify Scribe for the next TF teleconference http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List
14:53:31 <janina> agenda+ be done
14:57:55 <Zakim> +David_MacDonald
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14:59:13 <Zakim> +John_Foliot
14:59:31 <Judy> Judy has joined #html-a11y
15:00:03 <Zakim> +Cooper
15:00:25 <Zakim> -Cooper
15:01:04 <Zakim> +Judy
15:01:46 <Zakim> +??P18
15:02:30 <David> David has joined #html-a11y
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15:03:02 <Zakim> +Plh
15:03:10 <janina>  regrets: Paul_Cotton
15:05:00 <janina> zakim, take up item 1
15:05:00 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Plan2014 (Revision 2) Discussion https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2012JulSep/0312.html" taken up [from janina]
15:05:03 <David> scribe: David
15:05:42 <David> Revisions to plan for HTML to REC by 2014, Sam posted to all lists... 
15:06:11 <David> we will reduce descrepencies in alt guidance, and steve's note... identifid specifically
15:06:17 <plh> [[
15:06:18 <plh> Changed to reflect keeping the Alt Techniques document in the HTML WG, and asking the editors and task force to work together to reduce differences.
15:06:19 <plh> ]]
15:06:25 <plh> [[
15:06:26 <plh> Clarified that the A11y TF can chose to produce multiple extension specifications for the full-transcript issue.
15:06:27 <plh> ]]
15:06:42 <plh> q+
15:06:55 <janina> q?
15:07:02 <janina> ack p
15:07:24 <David> Philip: 2 things... Changed to reflect keeping the Alt Techniques document in the HTML WG, and asking the editors and task force to work together to reduce differences ... Clarified that the A11y TF can chose to produce multiple extension specifications for the full-transcript issue.
15:07:47 <David> Philip... extensions can be worked into HTML5
15:07:54 <plh> s/Philip/Philippe/
15:08:25 <JF> Q+
15:08:42 <janina> q?
15:08:47 <janina> ack jf
15:09:51 <David> JF: agree exit criteria is going to be critical... we need to spend more time on it. current discussion ...I asked adrienne, what happens it we've got something implemented for  accessbility, but don't have any support
15:10:22 <David> outline elements, landmards... do we have 2 AT tools that do that
15:11:53 <janina> q?
15:12:52 <janina> q?
15:12:52 <David> 2 points ... browsers says weve implemented but not AT.  (2) imlemented in AT bt not browsers (longdesc
15:13:07 <richardschwerdtfe> richardschwerdtfe has joined #html-a11y
15:13:25 <David> s/ imlemented/ implemented
15:13:31 <Zakim> +Rich
15:15:25 <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly
15:15:46 <David> jf continues: Adrienne says  only MS can report on implementation on MS products
15:16:01 <JF> thread: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Sep/0491.html
15:16:41 <David> JS: We can verify with JAWS... don't need their declaration
15:16:48 <JF> Exit Criteria: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Sep/0215.html
15:17:16 <David> JF: but Adrienne says its unacceptable for us or anyone to report on implementation of IE
15:17:42 <David> JS: we'll demonstrate it works in JAWS, that should be enough
15:18:05 <JF> Q+
15:18:08 <David> Rich: concerned we're writed compliance criteria, and we don't have any
15:18:30 <David> s/writed/writing
15:19:18 <JF> +1 to cyns
15:19:28 <Judy> q+
15:19:30 <David> RS: TIETAC shows that vendors don't like 3rd party people writing implementation
15:20:02 <David> Cynthia: Should not be done in HTML
15:20:26 <janina> q?
15:20:29 <David> RS: the whole AP discussion... big isue, almost HTML.next
15:20:43 <janina> ack jf
15:22:03 <David> JF: if feature Feature foo... is mapped to Accessbility API... is that enough
15:22:32 <David> RS: we'll work with browsers if something is mapped properly
15:23:11 <janina> ack ju
15:23:11 <David> RS: trying to think of ways to do it without holding up HTML5... perhaps an extension
15:23:13 <JF> Q+ to ask about extension nomenclature 
15:23:45 <David> s/ vendors/ people
15:24:12 <janina> q?
15:24:21 <janina> ack jf
15:24:21 <Zakim> JF, you wanted to ask about extension nomenclature
15:25:05 <janina> q?
15:25:53 <plh> q+
15:25:59 <David> jf: steve faulkner put out HTML-hgroup... concerned about moving accessibility out of HTML5, could end up as HTML+A11Y
15:26:50 <janina> q?
15:27:07 <janina> ack plh
15:27:34 <David> jf: extensions can be precarious... html5+RDFA an impression of 2 specs, one with, and one without , concerned about the optics of Steve's doc 
15:28:14 <Judy> q+
15:28:29 <David> Philippe: extensions... agree with JFs concern and we'll have to work with it...
15:28:49 <janina> q?
15:28:53 <janina> ack ju
15:30:53 <David> Judy: JS and me are aware of concerns of impressions/optics... understood to different degrees to different places...  problems with take up ... plan on promoting them as a family of extensions...peer level specs... important to use reintegration path... should make use the plan is robust and credible...
15:31:31 <janina> q?
15:32:05 <David> as well as status is peer level spec... inviting people to look at all options... may work better to have extension that can be easily revised as things move forward... invite you to look a the feedback mechanisms
15:32:15 <janina> q?
15:32:33 <Judy> s/are aware of/have particularly looked at/
15:33:13 <Judy> s/problems with take up/one possibility then is that it could cause problems with take up/
15:33:36 <janina> q?
15:33:37 <David> js: not necessarily an operator between the extensions and html (-, +) is not in the plans... peer level...
15:33:44 <janina> q?
15:34:00 <David> js: all agree that we need to be careful going forward
15:34:09 <Judy> s/important to use reintegration path/important that the implementation path is available for use, if the TF decides that it wants to use it/
15:34:13 <Judy> q+
15:35:03 <David> js: from W3C hoping that if people are concerned to make suggestions that will make it work...
15:35:17 <janina> q?
15:35:20 <janina> ack ju
15:35:39 <Judy> agenda?
15:37:29 <JF> w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ExtensionSpecifications
15:37:43 <JF> s/w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ExtensionSpecifications/http://w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ExtensionSpecifications
15:38:41 <David> js: extensions can be developed on our time... as soon as our extension is published... we can consider either roll it in or go on it's on CR... it's an opportunity... 
15:38:46 <janina> q?
15:39:34 <JF> If an extension specification is to be nominated for integration into a base specification, it must first meet the CR exit criteria for the base specification. That is, every feature in the extension spec must demonstrate the level of interoperability that would be required for a feature in the base spec.
15:40:05 <David> Philippe: as it's own spec extension does not have the same rigorous exit criteria... but to come back in to HTML5 it has a higher bar...
15:41:13 <Judy> q+
15:41:52 <David> JF: to be rolled back in requires concensus and two independent implementation... but what if browsers don't implement even if we've got the mapping right
15:42:04 <JF> http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/decision-policy-v3.html#cr-integration
15:42:19 <David> JB: Just requires it to be in the stack... not in the user agent..
15:42:48 <Judy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Sep/0215.html
15:43:08 <janina> q?
15:43:12 <janina> ack ju
15:43:39 <David> JB: 1 concern... how much browsers expected to implement if they weren't interested... does that affect it's reintegration
15:43:47 <plh> http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/public-permissive-exit-criteria.html
15:44:29 <JF> "These criteria are unclear on whether the combination of a user agent with another piece of software, such as an assistive technology, or a browser extension, would qualify for purposes of meeting the CR exit criteria."
15:44:40 <David> jb: for longdesc to work... AT is fine, as long as it works with AT an the Browser... if it's in the stack...
15:45:13 <JF> "It's good to have expectations about this clear up front."
15:45:24 <David> JB: critical ... permissive exit criteria, removes implementation pressure...
15:45:30 <plh> q+
15:45:40 <janina> q?
15:46:47 <richardschwerdtfe> I need to drop
15:46:53 <Zakim> -Rich
15:47:11 <David> jf: don't have clear exit criteria about expectations of exit criteria in the docs...
15:47:30 <David> JS: can you propose repair text for editing of the docs to maike it clearly
15:47:46 <David> s/maike/make
15:48:25 <David> JB: if rolled back in, its not an extension, if not it is an ext.
15:49:27 <David> Philippe: Docs do not address concerns of John ... we should look at it...
15:50:13 <janina> zakim, take up item 4
15:50:15 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Other Business" taken up [from janina]
15:50:17 <David> Action: John will recommend language changes to clarify exit criteria implementation expectations...
15:50:17 <trackbot> Created ACTION-140 - Will recommend language changes to clarify exit criteria implementation expectations... [on John Foliot - due 2012-10-04].
15:52:44 <David> JB: text subteam... talking about plan forward... a few more survey responses...added as addendum... agree... survey glitch...
15:52:49 <Judy> https://www.w3.org/2012/09/25-text-minutes.html
15:54:56 <David> JB: David MacDonald and I met over his doc... finished most of remaining parts... David made changes clarifiacations etc
15:54:58 <David> http://www.davidmacd.com/WCAG/WAI/buggy.html
15:55:29 <David> JB: I need about 15 minutes... with the doc before passing it to editors and chairs
15:55:50 <David> s/clarifiacations /clarifications
15:55:56 <Judy> JB: I will be passing along remaining clarifications on the bottom part of the document hopefully by tonight.
15:56:12 <janina> zakim, take up item 3
15:56:12 <Zakim> agendum 3. "The Task Force at the TPAC" taken up [from janina]
15:56:26 <janina> zakim, take up item 2
15:56:26 <Zakim> agendum 2. "HTML Sec. 7.1. Hidden http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/editing.html#the-hidden-attribute" taken up [from janina]
15:58:17 <David> js: Ted O'Conner, thinks he's addressed outstanding issues... we should review and raise issues... looks like it's coming to an end.
15:59:05 <David> JF: consered about links not getting visual focus
15:59:53 <David> JS: suggested that they be fixed in Accessibility API's 
16:00:23 <Zakim> -Plh
16:00:29 <Zakim> -Judy
16:01:59 <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
16:02:07 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
16:02:10 <Zakim> -John_Foliot
16:02:12 <Zakim> -Janina
16:02:15 <David> CS: api people need to go off and figure out how to do that... that's why we're not making  recyet
16:02:24 <Zakim> -David_MacDonald
16:02:26 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM has ended
16:02:26 <Zakim> Attendees were Janina, David_MacDonald, John_Foliot, Cooper, Judy, Michael_Cooper, Plh, Rich, Cynthia_Shelly
16:02:39 <David> zakim, bye
16:02:39 <Zakim> Zakim has left #html-a11y
16:02:50 <David> rrsagent, make log public
16:03:03 <David> rrsagent, make minutes
16:03:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/27-html-a11y-minutes.html David
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