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09:39:16 <SimonSapin> cn=Simon Sapin,ou=People,dc=keleos,dc=fr
09:39:46 <SimonSapin> nevermind, wrong channel
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15:14:50 <SimonSapin> fantasai: ping
15:31:53 <glazou> glazou has joined #css
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15:32:28 <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
15:32:28 <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 28 minutes
15:32:33 <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:34:37 <SimonSapin> glazou: I just wrote to w3c-css-wg to ask about editing specs
15:34:56 <glazou> hi SImon ; looking
15:35:18 <glazou> not received yet
15:36:29 <SimonSapin> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2012JulSep/0381.html
15:37:28 <glazou> yep saw it
15:38:09 <glazou> TabAtkins: ping
15:38:12 <glazou> yt ?
15:38:36 <glazou> SimonSapin: ask fantasai or TabAtkins about how-to documents
15:39:04 <SimonSapin> I found stuff on the wiki about publishing to /TR
15:40:05 <Ms2ger> SimonSapin, also, https://www.w3.org/Style/Group/
15:40:31 <florian> florian has joined #css
15:40:31 <Ms2ger> And https://www.w3.org/Style/Group/css3-src/bin/postprocess
15:41:33 <SimonSapin> Ms2ger: the latter builds Overview.html from a Overview.src.html, right?
15:41:40 <Ms2ger> Yep
15:42:13 <SimonSapin> and you use curl or something to automate it?
15:43:16 <Ms2ger> I believe some people have Makefiles in the public repo
15:43:35 <glazou> curl is ok
15:43:41 <glazou> the basis is HTTP PUT
15:44:16 <glazou> see bottom of https://www.w3.org/Style/Group/css3-src/bin/README.html
15:45:56 <SimonSapin> Ms2ger: scripts in the repo, in http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/ ?
15:46:07 <Ms2ger> Yes
15:47:03 <Ms2ger> ./css3-regions/Makefile, for example
15:47:09 <cabanier> cabanier has joined #css
15:47:42 <SimonSapin> oh, per spec
15:48:15 <Ms2ger> Yeah
15:49:20 <SimonSapin> hum, css3-page/Makefile includes ../Makefile … which does not exist
15:49:23 <SimonSapin> I’ll look around
15:50:06 <Ms2ger> Heh
15:50:09 <glazou> not sure I'll be able to chair ; I can barely speak
15:50:13 <glazou> so sore throat
15:51:29 <SimonSapin> Ok for the tools. The question remains: should I just push small fixes or talk to the editors first?
15:52:01 <glazou> the latter
15:52:25 <glazou> the usual way is to send the typos by email directly to the editors or, if they're important, www-style
15:52:44 <glazou> in that latter case, it's archived and that's why it does matter
15:52:59 <glazou> the former is not archived and verifiable
15:53:07 <glazou> by anyone I mean
15:53:24 <SimonSapin> well, the hg history is public
15:53:54 <glazou> hg logs are far less easy to get than www-style archive…
15:53:59 <glazou> and they don't have URIs
15:54:07 <Molly> Molly has joined #css
15:54:13 <glazou> hey Molly 
15:54:33 <glazou> paul_irish: yt?
15:54:39 <Ms2ger> There's always hgweb
15:54:53 <Molly> Hey Daniel! I'm IRCing in from a plane, so no phone today
15:55:03 <glazou> from a plane ?!?
15:55:05 <glazou> wow
15:55:31 <Ms2ger> Relevant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r1CZTLk-Gk
15:55:49 <glazou> at this time, I could use a plane ticket to bora-bora
15:55:55 <Molly> Yep, on my way home from Chicago to Tucson, 5 dollar wifi all day on Southwest :)
15:56:01 <glazou> nice
15:56:15 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:56:25 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:56:38 <florian> Zakim, I am [UPcaller]
15:56:41 <Zakim> sorry, florian, I do not see a party named '[UPcaller]'
15:56:44 <florian> Zakim, I am [IPcaller]
15:56:44 <Zakim> ok, florian, I now associate you with [IPcaller]
15:56:49 <Zakim> +??P33
15:56:56 <glazou> Zakim, ??P33 is me
15:56:56 <Zakim> +glazou; got it
15:57:26 <Zakim> + +1.415.308.aaaa
15:57:43 <krit> krit has joined #css
15:57:53 <glazou> Zakim, aaaa is krit
15:57:53 <Zakim> +krit; got it
15:58:05 <glazou> np
15:58:44 <SimonSapin> SimonSapin has joined #css
15:58:47 <glazou> even embedded in
15:59:14 <krit> glazou: sounds save
15:59:18 <glazou> sick
15:59:28 <krit> glazou: :(
15:59:43 <oyvind> oyvind has joined #css
15:59:54 <Zakim> +bradk
16:00:00 <bradk> bradk has joined #css
16:00:11 <glazou> Molly: a good tea with honey will do the trick
16:00:35 <CesarAcebal> CesarAcebal has joined #css
16:00:41 <Zakim> +lstorset
16:00:53 <Molly> :) Done! But I'll have to make it a torrent for optimal plane to cup xfer
16:01:09 <lstorset> lstorset has joined #css
16:01:14 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:01:32 <Zakim> +Stearns
16:01:37 <JohnJansen> JohnJansen has joined #css
16:01:44 <Zakim> +Bert
16:02:25 <Zakim> +CesarAcebal
16:02:33 <rhauck> rhauck has joined #css
16:02:45 <Zakim> +??P64
16:02:49 <Zakim> +antonp
16:03:02 <glazou> Zakim, ??P64 is SimonSapin 
16:03:03 <Zakim> +CesarAcebal.a
16:03:03 <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P64 is me
16:03:05 <Zakim> +plinss
16:03:11 <Zakim> +SimonSapin
16:03:13 <JohnJansen> zakim, Microsoft has JohnJansen
16:03:28 <Zakim> + +1.415.615.aabb
16:03:38 <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
16:03:39 <antonp1> antonp1 has joined #css
16:03:42 <Zakim> I already had ??P64 as SimonSapin.a, SimonSapin
16:03:45 <rhauck> Zakim, aabb is me
16:03:48 <Zakim> +JohnJansen; got it
16:04:10 <antonp1> Zakim, who is here
16:04:21 <Zakim> + +1.415.832.aacc
16:04:25 <Zakim> +leaverou
16:04:26 <Zakim> +rhauck; got it
16:04:40 <Zakim> antonp1, you need to end that query with '?'
16:04:44 <Zakim> +[Apple]
16:04:47 <SimonSapin> How can I resolve SimonSapin.a vs. SimonSapin?
16:04:47 <glazou> Zakim, aacc is rossen
16:04:49 <antonp1> antonp1 has left #css
16:04:50 <hober> Zakim, Apple is me
16:05:04 <antonp1> antonp1 has joined #css
16:05:31 <glazou> Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:05:37 <antonp1> antonp1 has left #css
16:05:58 <antonp1> antonp1 has joined #css
16:06:01 <Zakim> +rossen; got it
16:06:03 <Zakim> +hober; got it
16:06:08 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller], glazou, krit, bradk, lstorset, [Microsoft], Stearns, Bert, CesarAcebal, SimonSapin.a, antonp, CesarAcebal.a, plinss, SimonSapin, rhauck, rossen,
16:06:10 <Zakim> ... leaverou, hober
16:06:12 <Zakim> [Microsoft] has JohnJansen
16:06:31 <Zakim> +fantasai
16:07:09 <SimonSapin> Seems like Zakim is seeing me twice, again
16:07:20 <glazou> SimonSapin: nevermind
16:07:26 <drublic> drublic has joined #css
16:07:46 <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
16:08:00 <fantasai> glazou: any extra items?
16:08:13 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
16:08:16 <fantasai> krit: Would like editor to Masking
16:08:24 <arronei> zakim, microsoft has me
16:08:24 <Zakim> +arronei; got it
16:08:34 <fantasai> krit: Would like to add Brian Birtles from Mozilla
16:08:41 <fantasai> krit: He's already worked on SVG masking spec
16:08:45 <fantasai> glazou: Any objections?
16:08:56 <fantasai> RESOLVED: Brian Birtles added as editor to CSS3 Masking
16:09:16 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Sep/0464.html
16:09:17 <fantasai> glazou: Request from fantasai and Tab to publish FPWD of counter-styles
16:10:06 <fantasai> Florian: This is split out for CSS3 Lists?
16:10:08 <fantasai> fantasai: yes
16:10:34 <fantasai> Florian: It's removed all the stuff except CSS2.1 / CSS2.0 stuff?
16:11:13 <tantek> tantek has joined #css
16:11:23 <fantasai> fantasai: Yes, except ethiopic-numeric, because it can't be represented by @counter-style. This is marked as an issue.
16:11:41 <Zakim> -rhauck
16:11:51 <fantasai> Florian: What about katakana / hiragana?
16:12:00 <tantek> good morning
16:12:08 <glazou> hi tantek 
16:12:09 <fantasai> Florian: There was some question of how they behave, why not look at the implementations that exist?
16:12:13 <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_ has joined #css
16:12:13 <fantasai> fantasai: No disagreement there
16:12:21 <fantasai> Florian: If there's no implementation, then remove them.
16:12:33 <fantasai> glazou: We have enough time to remove them in the future
16:13:02 <fantasai> glazou: Noticed one of the latest edits was edit to type attribute in CSSOM (changed to system)
16:13:07 <fantasai> glazou: There was some discussion about that
16:13:20 <fantasai> glazou: Change seems good to me.
16:13:35 <fantasai> Bert: Can we change the shortname? Seems odd for CSS3 shortnames to be inconsistent
16:13:44 <fantasai> Florian: Didn't we resolve to change it to the new pattern?
16:14:00 <TabAtkins_> Yes, it's the new pattern that we'll change everything to.
16:14:08 <rhauck> me too Tab, just dropped from call and can't get back in
16:14:09 <fantasai> Florian: Eventually we will migrate everything to the new scheme
16:14:16 <fantasai> glazou: We resolved on that last week
16:14:29 <fantasai> Bert: Think there's better things to do, but ok.
16:14:42 <fantasai> glazou: We need to. The current naming scheme has been inconsistent, and it's confusing people.
16:15:09 <Zakim> +rhauck
16:15:32 <Zakim> + +1.281.305.aadd
16:15:39 <TabAtkins_> zakim, aadd is me
16:15:39 <Zakim> +TabAtkins_; got it
16:15:52 <fantasai> Florian: I will object if they are not marked at-risk
16:15:56 <fantasai> fantasai: They're marked
16:16:00 <fantasai> glazou: It's in the status section
16:16:06 <fantasai> Florian: Ok, I'm good.
16:16:13 <fantasai> RESOLVED: FPWD CSS Counter Styles Level 3
16:16:28 <fantasai> Topic: Viewport Size for Reftests
16:16:30 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-css-testsuite/2012Sep/0020.html
16:16:35 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
16:16:43 <koji> zakim, [ipcaller.a] is me
16:16:43 <Zakim> +koji; got it
16:16:52 <fantasai> leif: Deferred so I could investigate what Opera needed.
16:17:00 <fantasai> leif: Essentially have no problem with 600x600
16:17:53 <fantasai> leif: Might need different size in the future, but probably would prefer to mark that with metadata
16:18:10 <glazou> s/releases/released
16:18:40 <fantasai> fantasai: If we need a smaller size, then we should figure that out now, not go back and mark tests that fit within the smaller size and say the others can't be run on that size
16:19:06 <fantasai> leif: ... viewport tests probably need a special keywords ...
16:19:33 <fantasai> arronei: We should add a flag for tests that don't fit within 600x600
16:20:02 <lstorset> lstorset has joined #css
16:20:28 <fantasai> rossen: From past experience, when we had tests that rely on a square container, sometimes this can hide some buggy implementations, especially when dealing with different permutations of directions / writing modes / etc
16:20:47 <fantasai> rossen: when both containing width and height are the same, might hide a buggy implementation there
16:20:51 <antonp1> +1
16:21:04 <fantasai> rossen: if you're settled on 600x600, that's fine, but a square container is prone to hiding some bugs
16:21:23 <fantasai> krit: Mozilla uses 1000x1000, and Webkit uses 800x600
16:21:47 <fantasai> rossen: 1000x1000 doesn't solve the issue I was talking about, but 800x600 would be perfect
16:21:52 <SimonSapin> +1, I had such bugs. (Non-square viewport is better)
16:22:14 <fantasai> rossen: also @media aspect ratios, setting square viewport can hide some things that you want to find out sooner than later
16:23:28 <fantasai> fantasai: This isn't the size to use, it's the smallest size that you can make the viewport and still capture all relevant data in a screenshot
16:23:35 <fantasai> glazou: Enough info to make a decision?
16:23:51 <molly> molly has joined #css
16:23:55 <fantasai> fantasai: Yeah. We'll go with 600x600, and recommend that UAs use a rectangular size that is larger than that if possible.
16:24:06 <fantasai> Florian: I'm mildly surprised no one needs a smaller size for mobile testing
16:24:35 <fantasai> leif: Often the desktop viewport size is used
16:24:50 <fantasai> leif: If we wanted to go with the smallest mobile screen size, we'd be at 240
16:24:56 <fantasai> leif: that's a bit small
16:25:03 <fantasai> RESOLVED: as fantasai summarized above
16:25:15 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Jul/0598.html
16:25:19 <fantasai> Topic: Multi-column Shrink-to-fit
16:25:35 <glazou> this is SimonSapin speaking
16:25:46 <fantasai> Sapin: The part of multicol about shrink-to-fit doesn't make sense. We should just remove it.
16:26:10 <fantasai> fantasai: I agree with removing any implication that css3-multicol defines multicol intrinsic sizing
16:26:13 <florian> I am wondering is the size limit implies constrains on the fonts that you can use when running the tests, as some fonts may cause the text to overflow
16:26:21 <fantasai> Sapin: We can define it later in css3-sizing if necessary.
16:26:23 <florian> s/is the/if the/
16:26:35 <fantasai> Bert: I didn't understand what the problem is
16:27:05 <fantasai> Sapin: css3-multicol sizing uses shrink-to-fit sizing when available size is none, but CSS2.1 [...]
16:27:14 <fantasai> glazou: You said there is little interop in your email
16:27:29 <fantasai> Sapin: If we we make float multicol elements, we can see intrinsic size without defining width 
16:27:37 <fantasai> Sapin: Results are all over the place
16:28:32 <fantasai> fantasai: I raised an issue about multicol intrinsic sizing that håkon thought was in the spec not making sense anyway
16:28:42 <fantasai> glazou: Impact on the spec?
16:28:48 <fantasai> Sapin: [...]
16:28:54 <fantasai> anton: Make it explicitly undefined?
16:29:02 <fantasai> Sapin: Yes, we can add that it's undefined
16:29:20 <fantasai> Sapin: I don't know if, for example, Flexbox explicitly says the preferred width is undefined
16:29:26 <fantasai> fantasai: No, we define it.
16:29:44 <fantasai> Florian: Easier for us and implementers if we make it explicitly undefined
16:30:06 <fantasai> rossen: Have another question here, can you elaborate what you meant by "results are all over the place?"
16:30:09 <Rossen> Rossen has joined #css
16:30:19 <fantasai> Sapin: For example, some browsers takes the preferred width as if the element were not multi-column, and just use that
16:30:29 <fantasai> Sapin: Some browsers multiply the results by the column-count
16:30:41 <fantasai> Rossen: Were there any browsers doing what the spec is asking for?
16:30:47 <fantasai> Sapin: I don't know what the spec is supposed to be asking for
16:31:32 <fantasai> fantasai: I think we should make it's undefined, because the desired behavior is unclear/unknown, and we don't have interop
16:31:45 <fantasai> Bert: It's already undefined in the spec, what did you want to change?
16:31:46 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
16:32:08 <fantasai> Sapin: I don't know how having an unknown available-width is useful
16:32:58 <fantasai> glazou: Seems to me some people need to do more investigation to rsolve this
16:33:10 <fantasai> rossen: We did a bit of work on this, I need to test a little on that
16:33:21 <fantasai> rossen: We read the spec at the time, and it kinda made sense
16:33:37 <fantasai> rossen: I would prefer if we can take this next week and then have a few days to look around and see what exactly would that mean
16:33:53 <fantasai> glazou: We'll return next week
16:34:01 <fantasai> anton: Ca we get confirmatio exactly what the proposal is
16:34:27 <fantasai> Sapin: Remove lines 3-10 inclusive
16:34:58 <fantasai> Florian: Seems we have to remove something, but unsure what the scope of that its
16:34:59 <glazou> http://www.w3.org/mid/4FBB2B56.9080805@mcc.id.au
16:35:14 <fantasai> Topic: URL notation and IRIs
16:35:44 <fantasai> TabAtkins_: We just have to make sure our definition of URLs includes IRIs
16:36:04 <SimonSapin> URLs are ASCII only (and even more restrictive than that)
16:36:27 <fantasai> glazou: How many changes do we need?
16:36:30 <fantasai> TabAtkins_: Just in css3-values
16:36:44 <fantasai> Florian: Some people complained that we shouldn't use the term URL when we mean IRI
16:36:59 <fantasai> TabAtkins proposes ignoring that
16:37:04 <fantasai> TabAtkins: That's what everyone calls them
16:37:26 <fantasai> krit: CSS3 Images need to update to CSS3 Values and Units instead of CSS2.1 then
16:37:55 <fantasai> glazou: Editing CR?
16:38:04 <fantasai> fantasai: This qualifies as a clarification, since this is what was meant
16:38:50 <fantasai> fantasai: I think I even had an issue marked on what the correct terminology should be to include IRIs, and nobody every commented on it
16:38:56 <fantasai> fantasai: So I just removed the issue.
16:38:58 <SimonSapin> RFC 3987 instead of RFC 3986
16:39:21 <fantasai> glazou: Also need to update the prose of the spec
16:39:33 <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2012JulSep/0372.html
16:39:37 <fantasai> Topic: Line Grid proposal
16:39:47 <fantasai> Florian: At the Kyoto F2F, fantasai made a line grid proposal
16:40:08 <fantasai> Florian: Everybody liked it, and since there was the Line Layout module, people wanted to put Line Grid into Line Layout
16:40:20 <fantasai> Florian: But since then it seems Line layout  is complicated and moves slowly
16:40:30 <fantasai> Florian: Propose making it its own module, and moving it forward
16:40:44 <fantasai> Szilles: Line grid is equally complicated, because you don't know what to align with the line gride
16:40:58 <fantasai> Florian: I agree there are ambiguities in what will happen until Line Layout is finished
16:41:03 <rhauck1> rhauck1 has joined #css
16:41:14 <fantasai> florian: But [...]
16:41:22 <fantasai> szilles: No, it's because of the way line-height is defined
16:41:35 <fantasai> szilles: You don't know where the baseline is within a line
16:41:37 <drublic> drublic has joined #css
16:41:51 <fantasai> fantasai: Isn't that only true when someting is vertical-align: bottom or top ?
16:42:02 <fantasai> szilles: don't recall, but not about differing baselines
16:42:19 <fantasai> Florian: Seems to me in generalized situation what you're saying is right, but there are a lot of cases that would work
16:42:42 <fantasai> szilles: I guess I disagree, since if you don't figure this out from the beginning you won't get it right
16:43:04 <fantasai> szilles: But I will commit to having a Line Module layout by Lyon
16:43:58 <fantasai> Florian: Couldn't we still have different modules that depend on each other? Or is dependency too strong?
16:44:19 <fantasai> szilles: you need a definition of lines that works
16:44:33 <fantasai> anton: I think you'll end up relying on dependencies that aren't thought through
16:44:44 <fantasai> glazou: Since Steve's committed to giving us a module by Lyon, I suggest waiting until then
16:44:51 <fantasai> Florian: Ok, that's fine
16:45:14 <fantasai> glazou: end of agenda, anything else to discuss?
16:45:21 <fantasai> fantasai: Do we have dates for F2F in February yet?
16:45:38 <fantasai> molly?
16:45:49 <fantasai> glazou: Proposed 4-6 of February in Tucson
16:45:54 <fantasai> Florian: pending confirmation
16:46:11 <fantasai> glazou: I have an exclusion in February, there's a W3C workshop about EPUB in NYC 15-16 of February
16:46:18 <fantasai> glazou: So would like to avoid those dates if we ever change
16:46:30 <fantasai> szilles: don't think molly can do those dates anyway
16:46:51 <fantasai> fantasai: So just need Molly to confirm dates?
16:46:56 <fantasai> glazou: Anything else?
16:47:11 <fantasai> Florian: Yes, about your priority lists, seems to me there were some specs missing. Maybe re-issue an updated list?
16:47:29 <fantasai> glazou: People already commented that they were missing, so I hope responses included them
16:47:35 <molly> It is dependent upon availability and sponsors - but I will leave those days out
16:47:40 <fantasai> fantasai: If they didn't include them, need to go back and ask
16:48:01 <fantasai> Florian: Public responses missed e.g. CSS Variables
16:48:36 <fantasai> glazou: Ok, I'll deal with that
16:49:19 <fantasai> glazou: Peter and I will go through responses before TPAC so we can discuss, so really need responses soon so we can aggregate data
16:50:15 <fantasai> fantasai: For CSS3 Conditional, Tab and I plan to request LC on October 10th telecon, that's in 2 weeks. Please review and send issues before then.
16:51:07 <Zakim> -krit
16:51:08 <Zakim> -hober
16:51:08 <Zakim> -TabAtkins_
16:51:09 <Zakim> -antonp
16:51:09 <Zakim> -leaverou
16:51:11 <Zakim> -rossen
16:51:11 <Zakim> -glazou
16:51:12 <Zakim> -Stearns
16:51:14 <Zakim> -CesarAcebal
16:51:15 <Zakim> -lstorset
16:51:18 <Zakim> -koji
16:51:19 <Zakim> -CesarAcebal.a
16:51:22 <Zakim> -bradk
16:51:23 <Zakim> -rhauck
16:51:23 <antonp1> antonp1 has left #css
16:51:25 <Zakim> -SimonSapin
16:51:27 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
16:51:35 <Zakim> -plinss
16:51:38 <fantasai> Meeting closed.
16:51:46 <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
16:52:11 <Zakim> -Bert
16:52:14 <Zakim> -fantasai
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16:55:11 <Zakim> -SimonSapin.a
16:55:12 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
16:55:12 <Zakim> Attendees were [IPcaller], glazou, +1.415.308.aaaa, krit, bradk, lstorset, Stearns, Bert, CesarAcebal, antonp, plinss, SimonSapin, +1.415.615.aabb, JohnJansen, +1.415.832.aacc,
16:55:12 <Zakim> ... leaverou, rhauck, rossen, hober, fantasai, [Microsoft], arronei, +1.281.305.aadd, TabAtkins_, koji
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16:59:48 <lstorset> Anyways, don't worry too much, just had to ask when I had you there :)
16:59:53 <lstorset> oops, wrong window
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