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14:57:09 <fsasaki> meeting: MLW-LT WG
14:57:11 <fsasaki> chair: felix
14:57:14 <fsasaki> scribe: tbd
14:57:27 <fsasaki> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Sep/0108.html
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14:59:11 <fsasaki> present: jirka, giuseppe, felix
14:59:28 <fsasaki> present+ milan
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14:59:38 <fsasaki> present+ shaun
15:00:49 <fsasaki> present+ olaf
15:00:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/20-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
15:02:03 <fsasaki> present+ ankit
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15:02:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/20-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
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15:03:20 <fsasaki> present+ moritz
15:05:36 <fsasaki> present+ declan
15:05:44 <fsasaki> present+ shaun
15:06:19 <fsasaki> scribe: jirka
15:06:21 <Jirka> scribe: Jirka
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15:06:33 <fsasaki> present+ yves
15:06:44 <fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Sep/0108.html
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15:07:13 <fsasaki> present+ tadej
15:07:17 <fsasaki> topic: HTML5+ITS validator
15:07:35 <Jirka> zakim, who is making noise
15:07:35 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is making noise', Jirka
15:08:13 <fsasaki> scribe: fsasaki
15:08:26 <fsasaki> jirka: used source code of the validator.nu
15:08:34 <fsasaki> .. currently best validator for html5
15:08:43 <fsasaki> .. validation engine is used by w3c too
15:09:17 <fsasaki> .. modified HTML5 to have ITS attributes in the validation preset
15:10:19 <fsasaki> .. will submit my code to validator.nu, so in the future validation with ITS will also be possible in W3C validator 
15:10:30 <fsasaki> .. only issue: our working draft is not very stable yet
15:10:36 <fsasaki> present+ des 
15:10:45 <Des> Des has joined #mlw-lt
15:10:58 <fsasaki> jirka: we can postpone the addition to validator.nu until tpac meeting
15:11:11 <fsasaki> .. if you want to try yourself, I have posted links for offline-validaton
15:11:40 <declan> I think this is the github link: https://github.com/kosek/html5-its-tools
15:11:51 <fsasaki> .. will be quite smooth to get our schemas part of w3c validator
15:12:06 <fsasaki> .. not so sure about validator.nu, but support by w3c validator will be sufficient
15:13:03 <fsasaki> .. another tool: created very simple tool that can take input HTML5 and produces XHTML
15:13:10 <fsasaki> .. that is, local ITS markup in XML 
15:13:22 <fsasaki> .. useful if you have a toolchain that processes XML content
15:13:37 <fsasaki> .. not sure if it's very useful, haven't got a lot of feedback from implementors
15:13:44 <fsasaki> .. related question, also on agenda:
15:13:56 <fsasaki> .. currently our specification is missing a definition of local markup for XHTML
15:14:03 <fsasaki> .. for the past we used XML namespaces
15:14:09 <fsasaki> .. ITS markup was in ITS namespace
15:14:16 <fsasaki> .. in HTML5 we use its-* attributes
15:14:29 <fsasaki> .. so it makes more sense to use same prefixed attributes in XHTML
15:14:35 <fsasaki> .. I posted that issue on the ML
15:15:02 <fsasaki> .. outcome of discussion needs to be reflected in ITS 2.0 spec, that is: guidance how to use ITS local markup in XHTML
15:15:52 <fsasaki> shaun: even with XHTML you would be able to use its-*
15:15:59 <fsasaki> .. instead of a namespace attribute
15:16:06 <fsasaki> .. XML syntax would still be OK
15:16:16 <fsasaki> .. which one is more useful may depend on the tool
15:16:35 <fsasaki> .. a tool that doesn't know about XHTML, you would want to transform those things into local markup
15:16:52 <fsasaki> .. using the HTML like markup might be more friendly to people doing HTML stuff
15:17:08 <fsasaki> jirka: true, but we can do both approaches, but should have some guidance
15:17:25 <fsasaki> .. e.g. if you use XHTML internally, in a workflow, you can use the ITS namespace 
15:17:35 <fsasaki> .. if it is a public web site, prefixed attributes are better
15:17:49 <fsasaki> .. in this way you have consistent parsing even with HTML parser
15:18:03 <fsasaki> .. so both approaches are OK, but we would need some explanation in the spec
15:18:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/20-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
15:18:25 <fsasaki> jirka: there is "polyglott markup", that is: intersection of XHTML and HTML syntax
15:18:44 <fsasaki> .. if you use that syntax, you get the same parsing result with both HTML and XHTML parser
15:18:57 <fsasaki> .. if you want to use a document in this subset, you need to use its-* attributes
15:19:12 <fsasaki> .. ITS namespaced attributes are not allowed in polyglot
15:19:26 <fsasaki> .. I don't have a preference, but we should mention this in the spec
15:19:34 <fsasaki> shaun: sounds good
15:20:41 <fsasaki> pedro: for us it is very important to have an option for XHTML
15:20:55 <fsasaki> present+ pedro
15:21:47 <fsasaki> scribe: jirka
15:22:03 <Jirka> action: Jirka to draft section about using its-* and its: in XHTML 
15:22:03 <trackbot> Created ACTION-220 - Draft section about using its-* and its: in XHTML  [on Jirka Kosek - due 2012-09-27].
15:23:08 <Jirka> felix: schema refactoring will wait after prague meeting, so spec is more stable
15:23:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/20-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
15:23:38 <Jirka> topic: Extensions of HTML5
15:23:52 <fsasaki> scribe: fsasaki
15:24:18 <fsasaki> jirka: one problems of HTML5 is lack of extensibility
15:24:29 <fsasaki> .. in XML you can easily use namespaces 
15:24:44 <fsasaki> .. in spring we had decide which approach to use in HTML5
15:24:54 <fsasaki> .. we decided for its-* attributes
15:25:05 <fsasaki> .. there was some support for this approach in HTML5 spec
15:25:25 <fsasaki> .. I wasn't 100% sure that if we use such attributes it will be well received by HTML community
15:25:34 <fsasaki> .. there are not so many specs that add something to HTML5
15:25:40 <fsasaki> .. yesterday chairs of HTML WG introduced a new plan
15:25:50 <fsasaki> .. goal is to speed up HTML5 recommendation
15:26:13 <fsasaki> .. one approach is: split some problematic and other parts into extension specifications
15:26:23 <fsasaki> .. at the same time they say that the validator will support such extensions
15:26:42 <fsasaki> .. so validator (= w3c validator) will support also elements and attributes from widely supported extensions
15:26:54 <fsasaki> .. that is good for us because it is common to have such extensions
15:27:23 <fsasaki> .. also, mike smith from w3c, said to felix that he has nothing against adding support HTML5+ITS2.0 once we have schemas ready
15:27:39 <fsasaki> .. I'd just like to postpone this until all data categorie are settled
15:27:43 <fsasaki> .. so for us it is good
15:27:52 <fsasaki> .. there was some discussion on HTML mailing list
15:28:14 <fsasaki> .. saying extensions are normal for HTML5, and having a spec HTML5+ITS is OK thing
15:28:24 <fsasaki> .. and validator can support that out of the box
15:28:27 <fsasaki> scribe: jirka
15:28:58 <Jirka> felix: we still have plan to meet with HTML WG at TPAC
15:29:18 <Jirka> ... Felix is in touch with HTML WG chairs on date/time of joint meeting
15:30:22 <Jirka> Pedro: We are trying to move clients to HTML5 but we want to prevent compat. problems
15:30:56 <Jirka> Felix: Now you can use either XHTML or HTML with ITS, what's more approapriate for your client
15:31:27 <fsasaki> topic: PRAGUE PREPARATION
15:31:30 <Jirka> topic: Prague preparation
15:31:41 <fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Sep/0086.html
15:32:09 <Jirka> Felix: Dave developed test suite
15:32:11 <fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Test_Suite_Development
15:32:30 <fsasaki> http://phaedrus.scss.tcd.ie/its2.0/its-testsuite.html
15:32:31 <Jirka> ... we need to get implementors in Prague in order to fill above table
15:33:45 <Jirka> ... feedback from W3C about test suite design - it's OK
15:34:25 <Jirka> ... only tests shouldn't be so artificial
15:34:32 <fsasaki> http://phaedrus.scss.tcd.ie/its2.0/inputdata/translate/html/translate2html.html
15:34:44 <fsasaki> http://phaedrus.scss.tcd.ie/its2.0/expected/translate/html/translate2HtmlOutput.txt
15:35:25 <Jirka> ... we need at least two outputs for each data category
15:36:28 <Jirka> Declan: Output is not useful itself, it's just sort of metadata?
15:36:47 <Jirka> Felix: Yes, we changed this so it is easy to compare output from various tools.
15:37:10 <Jirka> ... you should do also test of real life usage
15:39:10 <fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Sep/0118.html
15:39:47 <Jirka> ... template for gathering basic information about implementations
15:40:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/20-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
15:40:05 <Jirka> topic: Overriding semantics
15:40:28 <Jirka> see thread http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Sep/0092.html
15:41:08 <Jirka> Yves: There is no formal definition of overriding in ITS 1.0/2.0. But there is something in tests.
15:41:25 <fsasaki> comment from felix: tests = ITS 1.0 tests
15:41:53 <Jirka> ... so intent is here in tests for ITS 1.0, we should be backward compatible with ITS 1.0
15:44:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/20-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
15:45:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/20-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
15:45:54 <Jirka> Olaf: Overriding non-existing value seems quite complicated. I prefer to override only existing values.
15:46:25 <Jirka> Yves: Yes, this would be more intuitive, but it is not compatible with ITS 1.0.
15:46:47 <Jirka> Olaf: Can we change this? It seems that noone implementd this anyway.
15:47:44 <Jirka> Yves: Overriding can get very complex if we start to use pointers and references as well.
15:48:14 <Jirka> Olaf: There must be way how to fix past mistakes.
15:48:27 <Jirka> Felix: We need to discuss this in Prague.
15:48:41 <Jirka> ... in the scope of affected categories
15:49:19 <Jirka> Tadej: Example - one document annotated by two tools.
15:49:38 <Jirka> ... is this legal, can both tools annotate the same element/attribute?
15:50:52 <Jirka> ... we can allow only global annotations
15:51:57 <Jirka> Olaf: We can consider additional global parameter...
15:52:34 <Jirka> ... (sorry I haven't catched it)
15:53:50 <fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Sep/0101.html
15:53:57 <Jirka> Declan: agrees with Olaf
15:54:02 <fsasaki> lq-issue
15:56:17 <Jirka> felix: describes problem - is inherited global value of data category if only part of it was locally overriden
15:57:13 <Jirka> Olaf: If you set set of parameters globally, you should be able to override part of it oly
15:57:18 <Jirka> s/oly/only/
15:59:34 <Jirka> Felix: We can have ... 
15:59:58 <fsasaki> Jirka thinks that we need terminology here
16:00:03 <Jirka> Declan: that would work for mtConfidence
16:00:03 <fsasaki> Jirka we don't have other parameters then its:param in ITS
16:00:07 <fsasaki> Jirka What about compound data category
16:00:26 <Jirka> s/.../document level annotations/
16:00:40 <Jirka> Tadej: that would work for me as well
16:01:32 <Jirka> action: felix to Summarize discussion about overriding
16:01:32 <trackbot> Created ACTION-221 - Summarize discussion about overriding [on Felix Sasaki - due 2012-09-27].
16:02:20 <Jirka> Meeting adjourned
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16:02:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/20-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
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16:03:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/20-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
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