14:46:48 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #forms
14:46:48 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/09/19-forms-irc
14:46:50 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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14:46:52 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be IA_XForms
14:46:52 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see IA_XForms()11:00AM scheduled to start in 14 minutes
14:46:53 <trackbot> Meeting: Forms Working Group Teleconference
14:46:53 <trackbot> Date: 19 September 2012
14:46:57 <Steven_> Steven_ has joined #forms
14:47:18 <Steven_> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2012Sep/0010
14:47:35 <Steven_> Chair: Steven
14:47:57 <Steven_> Regrets: Erik, Philip, Kurt
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15:00:45 <Zakim> IA_XForms()11:00AM has now started
15:01:00 <Zakim> +??P13
15:02:24 <nvdbleek> zakim, code?
15:02:43 <Zakim> the conference code is 93676 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), nvdbleek
15:03:39 <Zakim> +nvdbleek
15:03:43 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:03:53 <John_Boyer> John_Boyer has joined #forms
15:04:07 <alain> Zakim, I am [IPcaller]
15:04:07 <Zakim> ok, alain, I now associate you with [IPcaller]
15:06:31 <Zakim> +John_Boyer
15:07:21 <Steven_> zakim, I am ?
15:07:21 <Zakim> +Steven_; got it
15:07:31 <nvdbleek> zakim, who is here?
15:07:31 <Zakim> On the phone I see Steven_, nvdbleek, [IPcaller], John_Boyer
15:07:33 <Zakim> On IRC I see John_Boyer, alain, Steven_, Zakim, RRSAgent, nvdbleek, Steven, trackbot
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15:21:46 <Steven_> Scribe: Steven
15:21:48 <Steven_> Topic: XForms course, November 2012 in Rockville, Maryland
15:21:48 <Steven_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2012Sep/0002.html
15:21:58 <Steven_> Steven: THis is just a heads up.
15:22:22 <Steven_> s/TH/Th/
15:22:50 <Steven_> Topic: Community Group
15:22:50 <Steven_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2012Sep/0001.html
15:22:59 <Steven_> Steven: WHo could chair, now Leigh is gone?
15:23:12 <Steven_> John: Michael SperbergMcQueen?
15:23:19 <Steven_> Steven: Hmmm. I'll ask him
15:23:34 <Steven_> Topic: IndiUI TF
15:23:34 <Steven_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2012Jul/0009
15:25:16 <Steven_> Steven: More of a heads up, for people who may be interested. Definitly of interest for XFOrms
15:25:33 <Steven_> s/Definitly/Definitely
15:25:49 <Steven_> Topic: repeat index change
15:25:49 <Steven_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2012Jul/0003.html
15:25:49 <Steven_> http://www.w3.org/2012/07/25-forms-minutes.html#item04
15:27:28 <nvdbleek> http://wiki.orbeon.com/forms/doc/developer-guide/xforms-events#TOC-xxforms-index-changed
15:28:17 <Steven_> Steven: We have 2 implementations, but we didn't actually resolve to adopt
15:28:24 <Steven_> John: [discusses use case]
15:30:59 <Steven_> Nick: It may not be enough to detect changes in the UI
15:31:28 <Steven_> John: True, because the data may change under the index, without changing the index
15:32:19 <Steven_> Steven: But in that case, you can still catch that
15:33:03 <nvdbleek> This is also a really handy event http://wiki.orbeon.com/forms/doc/developer-guide/xforms-events#TOC-xxforms-value-changed 
15:33:55 <Steven_> Steven: Blue-skying this, ideally you would have a special instance that holds the indexes, and then use a constraint.
15:34:22 <Steven_> John: True... we even say something along those lines in the discussion of the index() function
15:35:20 <Steven_> Steven: Is there a general design that we could try for?
15:35:31 <Steven_> John: THe spec text is already there.
15:36:05 <Steven_> Steven: Are you suggesting I can do a bind already?
15:36:09 <Steven_> Nick: Yes
15:36:12 <Steven_> John: Yes
15:36:40 <Steven_> <bind nodeset="index('myrepeat')" ...
15:36:48 <Steven_> Steven: like that?
15:37:02 <nvdbleek> <xf:output value="row[idex('my-repeat')]/help"/>
15:37:05 <John_Boyer> output or bind ref=some/node[index()]
15:37:19 <Steven_> s/idex/index/
15:37:32 <John_Boyer> s/index()/index('X')
15:38:03 <Steven_> John: Then when the index changes, those ref and values know they have to update
15:38:21 <John_Boyer> in bind case, it's a dynamic dep when in ref/nodeset but not when in calculate etc (MIPs)
15:38:38 <John_Boyer> a repeat index is backed by an implicit instance node
15:39:24 <Steven_> John: So technically we don't need the event
15:39:49 <Steven_> ... there may be a separate issue around how many nodes are in a nodeset and how many of them are relevant
15:40:13 <Steven_> ... I don't see so many repeat tables where some rows are non-relevant
15:40:39 <Steven_> Nick: We have the relevant() function in XForms 2.0
15:42:36 <Steven_> John: If you add valid() then all the other MIPS should be functions as well
15:43:00 <Steven_> ... but valid() is the hardest to do
15:43:31 <nvdbleek> http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-xforms-xpath-20120807/#The_valid.28.29_Function
15:43:33 <John_Boyer> because valid is confluence of MIPs like constraint plus things that are determined after recalculate (schema validity)
15:43:44 <Steven_> Nick: They are good candidates to add.
15:43:51 <John_Boyer> so if we added valid(), then there'd be no reason not to add relevant(), readonly() etc
15:45:21 <Steven_> Nick: I'll send an email proposing them.
15:45:49 <nvdbleek> http://wiki.orbeon.com/forms/doc/developer-guide/xforms-xpath-functions#TOC-xxforms:valid-
15:46:04 <Steven_> Steven: DO we still want the events?
15:46:12 <Steven_> John: I think you talked us down from that
15:46:18 <Steven_> s/DO/Do/
15:46:52 <Steven_> John: It's just the secondary issues. that was a problem with the event version anyway.
15:47:09 <John_Boyer> the index() function gives us declarative updates rather than event-driven, which is weaker as you say
15:47:18 <John_Boyer> s/say/say, Steven
15:47:23 <nvdbleek> http://wiki.orbeon.com/forms/doc/developer-guide/xforms-xpath-functions#TOC-xxforms:evaluate-bind-property-
15:47:29 <Steven_> Topic: function, variable and reserved namespaces
15:47:29 <Steven_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2012Jun/0030.html
15:49:33 <Steven_> Steven: Anything more to discuss on this?
15:49:43 <Steven_> Nick: No, I think we agreed to this
15:50:34 <John_Boyer> definitely
15:51:01 <Steven_> Topic: ID resolution/clashes
15:51:02 <Steven_> http://www.w3.org/2012/06/20-forms-minutes.html#item04
15:52:29 <Steven_> Steven: If we had only used something other than ID...
15:53:34 <Steven_> John: What happens if we get a clash on loading the doc?
15:53:41 <Steven_> Nick: Non valid
15:54:29 <Steven_> John: In this case we *want* to allow  ID clashes.
15:56:18 <Steven_> Nick: WIthout encapsulation, you can't embed it twice.
15:56:45 <Steven_> ... you can't dispatch events to them
15:57:53 <Steven_> John: Otherwise we have to fix the IDs on loading
15:58:21 <Steven_> Steven: That solves the problem, but you still can't dispatch events
15:59:43 <Steven_> John: Will this be a real problem? Or can app designers account for it, and design appropriately?
16:01:53 <Steven_> ... Some people have done this to solve the problem, but we really need a deeper solution for subforms
16:02:03 <Steven_> ... this a bandaid, albeit a good one.
16:02:13 <Steven_> ... we need to create something smarter.\
16:02:29 <Steven_> Topic: AOB
16:02:36 <Steven_> John: Regrets for next week.
16:02:38 <Zakim> -John_Boyer
16:02:40 <Zakim> -Steven_
16:02:44 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
16:02:44 <Zakim> IA_XForms()11:00AM has ended
16:02:48 <Zakim> Attendees were nvdbleek, [IPcaller], John_Boyer, Steven_
16:03:27 <Steven_> Present+Alain
16:03:36 <Steven_> rrsagent, make minutes
16:03:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/19-forms-minutes.html Steven_
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