IRC log of dap on 2012-09-19

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:38:33 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #dap
13:38:33 [RRSAgent]
logging to
13:38:35 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
13:38:35 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #dap
13:38:37 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be DAP
13:38:37 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see UW_DAP()10:00AM scheduled to start in 22 minutes
13:38:38 [trackbot]
Meeting: Device APIs Working Group Teleconference
13:38:38 [trackbot]
Date: 19 September 2012
13:39:23 [fjh]
13:44:07 [fjh]
Chair: Frederick_Hirsch
13:44:15 [fjh]
Present+ Frederick_Hirsch
13:49:10 [ccourtney]
ccourtney has joined #dap
13:49:32 [ccourtney]
Present+ Colin_Courtney
13:50:39 [dsr]
dsr has joined #dap
13:51:40 [Zakim]
UW_DAP()10:00AM has now started
13:51:48 [Zakim]
13:54:07 [Zakim]
13:54:55 [Josh_Soref]
Scribe: Josh_Soref
13:55:04 [Josh_Soref]
Zakim, who is on the call?
13:55:04 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ccourtney, Josh_Soref
13:55:42 [SungOk_You]
SungOk_You has joined #dap
13:56:43 [Milan_Patel]
Milan_Patel has joined #dap
13:57:40 [Clarke]
Clarke has joined #dap
13:58:16 [Zakim]
13:58:20 [fjh]
zakim, ??P7 is me
13:58:20 [Zakim]
+fjh; got it
13:58:26 [fjh]
zakim, who is here?
13:58:26 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ccourtney, Josh_Soref, fjh
13:58:27 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Clarke, Milan_Patel, SungOk_You, dsr, ccourtney, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, Paul_Kinlan, glenn, AlexanderSalas, darobin, richt, tobie, Josh_Soref, slightlyoff, mounir,
13:58:27 [Zakim]
... trackbot, hiroto_away, dom
13:59:12 [Zakim]
+ +1.858.780.aaaa
13:59:36 [gmandyam]
gmandyam has joined #dap
13:59:46 [Jungkee]
Jungkee has joined #dap
13:59:57 [gmandyam]
Giri Mandyam from Qualcomm Innovation Center here - dialing in from (858) area code
13:59:57 [Jungkee]
Present+ Jungkee_Song
13:59:59 [Zakim]
+ +25686aabb
14:00:11 [SungOk_You]
Present+ SungOk_You
14:00:23 [dtran]
dtran has joined #dap
14:00:24 [Milan_Patel]
Present+ Milan_Patel
14:00:30 [dtran]
+Present Dzung_Tran
14:00:33 [gmandyam]
Present+ Giri_Mandyam
14:00:47 [Zakim]
14:01:03 [AlexanderSalas]
Present+ Alexander_Salas
14:01:11 [Zakim]
14:01:28 [dsr]
Present+ Dave_Raggett
14:01:30 [fjh]
zakim, [IPCaller] is Alexander_Salas
14:01:30 [Zakim]
+Alexander_Salas; got it
14:01:39 [Zakim]
14:01:40 [Clarke]
Present+ Clarke_Stevens
14:01:53 [Zakim]
14:02:13 [richt]
richt has joined #dap
14:02:35 [fjh]
zakim, who is here?
14:02:35 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ccourtney, Josh_Soref, fjh, +1.858.780.aaaa, +25686aabb, Alexander_Salas, Dsr, dtran (muted), [IPcaller]
14:02:38 [Zakim]
On IRC I see richt, dtran, Jungkee, gmandyam, Clarke, Milan_Patel, SungOk_You, dsr, ccourtney, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, glenn, AlexanderSalas, darobin, tobie, Josh_Soref, slightlyoff,
14:02:42 [Claes]
Claes has joined #dap
14:02:43 [Zakim]
... mounir, trackbot, hiroto_away, dom
14:02:45 [SungOk_You]
zakim, [IPcaller] is me
14:02:47 [Zakim]
+SungOk_You; got it
14:02:53 [Zakim]
14:02:58 [Zakim]
14:03:11 [Zakim]
14:03:12 [Jungkee]
Zakim, [IPCaller] is me
14:03:12 [Zakim]
+Jungkee; got it
14:03:26 [gmandyam]
zakim, +1.858.780.aaaa is me
14:03:27 [Zakim]
+gmandyam; got it
14:03:29 [Milan_Patel]
zakim, [aabb] is me
14:03:29 [Zakim]
sorry, Milan_Patel, I do not recognize a party named '[aabb]'
14:03:48 [Zakim]
+ + - is perhaps Claes?
14:03:50 [Milan_Patel]
zakim, aabb is me
14:03:50 [Zakim]
+Milan_Patel; got it
14:03:55 [SungOk_You]
Zakim, [IPCaller] is me
14:03:55 [Zakim]
sorry, SungOk_You, I do not recognize a party named '[IPCaller]'
14:04:08 [Claes]
zakim, aacc is Claes
14:04:08 [Zakim]
sorry, Claes, I do not recognize a party named 'aacc'
14:04:14 [gmandyam]
zakim, gmandyam is Giri_Mandyam
14:04:14 [Zakim]
+Giri_Mandyam; got it
14:04:26 [Claes]
zakim, aacc is me
14:04:26 [Zakim]
sorry, Claes, I do not recognize a party named 'aacc'
14:04:43 [Josh_Soref]
Topic: Administrative
14:04:50 [Josh_Soref]
Josh_Soref: Next week is Yom Kippur
14:05:16 [dsr]
You can declare your phone number via the W3C User Search Form and then click on the contact tab after having found yourself
14:05:20 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: are there other people in Josh_Soref 's situation
14:05:33 [dsr]
I will be away for next 2 weeks.
14:05:39 [richt]
zakim, lstorset is me
14:05:39 [Zakim]
+richt; got it
14:05:49 [fjh]
14:05:55 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: there's a PING call
14:07:56 [Claes]
Present+ Claes_Nilsson
14:08:03 [fjh]
PING is the privacy interest group, tomorrow call will have Dom reviewing 'Permissions on the Web', possible privacy review of WebIntents; I believe Paul Kinlan plans to attend as well as myself
14:08:11 [fjh]
to attend you need to join PING
14:08:14 [dtran]
Present+ Dzung_Tran
14:08:41 [fjh]
I attended an earlier PING call and reviewed DAP privacy work in general
14:08:53 [ccourtney]
Josh_Soref: Got it. I'll make sure to change that next time.
14:08:53 [fjh]
Topic: Minutes Approval
14:08:55 [Josh_Soref]
Topic: Minutes Approval
14:09:06 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: we'll defer until next week
14:09:09 [Josh_Soref]
Josh_Soref: i sent out a draft
14:09:15 [Josh_Soref]
... i'm going to send out a revised version
14:09:24 [Josh_Soref]
topic: Pick-Contact
14:09:26 [fjh]
Pick Contacts Intent updated,
14:09:40 [Josh_Soref]
Jungkee: i updated webidl definitions
14:09:43 [fjh]
s/Pick-Contact/Pick Contacts Intent/
14:09:49 [Josh_Soref]
... the type of array from Sequence Type
14:10:13 [Josh_Soref]
... dictionaries are pass by value
14:10:22 [Josh_Soref]
... one topic is search capability
14:10:35 [Josh_Soref]
... based on the intent discussion, we lost the extra field
14:10:57 [Josh_Soref]
... the extra field was meant to deliver types
14:11:13 [Josh_Soref]
... now we want to deliver type in the specific api
14:11:22 [Josh_Soref]
... for Pick-Contact/Pick-Media
14:11:31 [Josh_Soref]
... the need to request certain fields
14:11:36 [fjh]
14:11:40 [Josh_Soref]
14:11:45 [Josh_Soref]
... i'd like to hear some opinions about search/filtering fields
14:11:56 [Josh_Soref]
... maybe we can use the data field
14:12:06 [Josh_Soref]
... but that's defined to deliver the object itself
14:12:20 [Josh_Soref]
... maybe we put in extra information fields
14:12:24 [Josh_Soref]
... any ideas?
14:12:31 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: it seems like there are two issues
14:12:36 [Josh_Soref]
... 1. do we need search?
14:12:41 [Josh_Soref]
... 2. can extras be used
14:12:51 [Josh_Soref]
... I think being able to search makes sense
14:12:57 [Josh_Soref]
Jungkee: in the case of pick-contact
14:13:05 [Josh_Soref]
... contacts has quite a few fields
14:13:15 [Josh_Soref]
... and the client developer may require some number of fields
14:13:24 [Josh_Soref]
... explicitly from the services
14:13:29 [fjh]
14:13:32 [fjh]
14:13:33 [Josh_Soref]
... filtering capability is kind of necessary
14:13:37 [fjh]
ack josh_soref
14:14:19 [fjh]
josh_soref: at least initially, would rather see the providers manage this, they can design a better UI
14:14:33 [fjh]
josh_soref: then we can think about an API
14:15:00 [fjh]
josh_soref: there are too many ways to define a contacts database, for example an address field, various types with different semantics, eg. business address vs address
14:15:16 [fjh]
josh_soref: thus it isn't clear search will work as expected, depending on assumptions
14:15:37 [fjh]
josh_soref: will need to work out patterns over time, then eventually standardize it
14:15:58 [fjh]
josh_soref: also bad if request has to include 1,000 fields
14:16:17 [fjh]
josh_soref: pick contacts and then fields you want (?)
14:16:29 [richt]
+1 to Josh_Soref. Leave search/filtering up to providers initially.
14:16:32 [fjh]
josh_soref: josh suggests naviating through contacts
14:16:48 [fjh]
gary: pushing it to user dialog box?
14:16:50 [Josh_Soref]
gmandyam: aren't you putting the problem of 1000 fields from the intent invocation
14:16:55 [Josh_Soref]
... and into the dialog box
14:17:10 [fjh]
s|gary: pushing it to user dialog box?||
14:18:19 [fjh]
josh_soref: case of picking intent provider or not, once picked then service provider can provide search, e.g. facebook does, google does,
14:18:34 [Clarke_]
Clarke_ has joined #dap
14:18:35 [fjh]
josh_soref: so good service providers already do this
14:18:38 [Cathy]
Cathy has joined #dap
14:19:19 [fjh]
josh_soref: users would prefer seeing familiar sp interface
14:19:33 [fjh]
fjh: I could argue that is not aways true if users wish to use multiple services....
14:19:36 [Zakim]
14:19:45 [fjh]
josh_soref: so lets leave it to the sp
14:20:04 [Josh_Soref]
Jungkee: the client developer just want to make some specific request
14:20:15 [Josh_Soref]
... the fields that they can specify in filtering property
14:20:28 [Josh_Soref]
... is confined to fields already defined in the contacts intent spec
14:20:34 [Josh_Soref]
... it's constrained
14:20:47 [Josh_Soref]
... 1000 fields isn't going to happen
14:20:53 [Josh_Soref]
... it's just a hint to the sp
14:20:58 [Josh_Soref]
... if the client has a specific UC
14:21:20 [glenn]
glenn has joined #dap
14:21:26 [Zakim]
14:21:33 [Cathy]
zakim, ??P10 is me
14:21:34 [Zakim]
+Cathy; got it
14:22:42 [Josh_Soref]
Josh_Soref: Clients will always have to have adaptation code
14:22:57 [Josh_Soref]
... for when Providers don't honor their "hints" or fill in fields sufficiently
14:23:16 [fjh]
14:23:20 [Josh_Soref]
... by not having hints, Providers are forced to consider users' Data privacy at a field level
14:23:25 [Josh_Soref]
... and design a UI to address this
14:23:39 [Josh_Soref]
... the Clients are saved from some extra field filling which would be ignored
14:23:47 [Josh_Soref]
... either way they had to write the adaptation code
14:23:52 [Josh_Soref]
s/they/they [the clients]/
14:24:06 [glenn]
glenn has joined #dap
14:24:10 [Josh_Soref]
... and the Providers don't get led down a path where they just provide all requested fields
14:24:20 [Josh_Soref]
... they have to think about and design a privacy conscious UI
14:24:23 [Josh_Soref]
ack fjh
14:24:39 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: [summarizing]
14:24:50 [Josh_Soref]
... pushing the search capabilities to the service provider
14:25:01 [Josh_Soref]
... you avoid issues of semantics for the service provider
14:25:14 [Josh_Soref]
14:25:20 [Josh_Soref]
... you reduce confusion for the user, and increase familiarity for the user
14:25:48 [Josh_Soref]
... the flip side is what happens for multiple providers
14:25:55 [Josh_Soref]
... or for non web providers
14:25:57 [Josh_Soref]
ack me
14:26:12 [fjh]
fjh: possible confusion for user accessing variety of providers
14:26:39 [fjh]
josh_soref: for non-web provider (e.g. local) someone has to write adaptation code, will create UI
14:26:49 [fjh]
josh_soref: e.g. for phone, would try to make it close to phone feel
14:27:17 [fjh]
josh_soref: would have to consider privacy regardless, so not really different case
14:27:23 [fjh]
14:27:59 [fjh]
josh_soref: can address confusion of multiple providers through the use of an aggregator
14:28:36 [fjh]
fjh: I thought initially in contacts API we had search to avoid retrieving more information than needed, data minimization
14:29:55 [fjh]
josh_soref: regarding only retrieving certain fields, I suggest it is more common to request all, since users want to make sure they get what they need, and not blank fields
14:30:12 [glenn]
glenn has joined #dap
14:30:35 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: i think we need a CfC on the lis
14:30:38 [Josh_Soref]
14:30:43 [Josh_Soref]
... obviously it simplifies stuff for us
14:30:55 [Josh_Soref]
... there's a certain logic to that, they know what matters to people in their domain
14:31:08 [Josh_Soref]
richt: i think leaving it to the providers initially is in their interest
14:31:16 [Josh_Soref]
... they don't want to give away the farm
14:31:21 [Josh_Soref]
... they won't be giving out everything
14:31:27 [Josh_Soref]
... if there was an invisible context
14:31:41 [Josh_Soref]
... there should be a return nothing
14:31:45 [Josh_Soref]
... XXX
14:31:54 [Josh_Soref]
... if providers return the same thing, we can later codify that
14:32:00 [Josh_Soref]
... providers will want to protect their users
14:32:13 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: it has the benefit that there's someone you can sue in court
14:32:19 [Josh_Soref]
... by leaving things to the providers
14:32:21 [Josh_Soref]
richt: right
14:32:30 [Josh_Soref]
... if the api has a bug in it, and it malfunctions, that's bad
14:32:39 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: i'm looking to see how to make it a specific thing
14:32:46 [Josh_Soref]
... CfC would say we remove extras
14:32:54 [Josh_Soref]
... and to remove the search functionality
14:33:03 [Josh_Soref]
Josh_Soref: i thought we already removed search
14:33:10 [Josh_Soref]
... and we're just saying we're removing fields hints
14:33:13 [Josh_Soref]
14:33:21 [Josh_Soref]
Jungkee: i haven't removed the search field yet
14:33:44 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: i'll send out a CfC that does remove search+filter+field-hint
14:33:49 [Josh_Soref]
... i think we're agreed
14:34:02 [Josh_Soref]
... but since people aren't on the call, i think we should send out to the list
14:34:19 [Josh_Soref]
richt: you could define different service types that provide subsets of contact information
14:34:24 [fjh]
action: fjh to send CfC for removal of search from Pick Contacts
14:34:24 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-576 - Send CfC for removal of search from Pick Contacts [on Frederick Hirsch - due 2012-09-26].
14:34:30 [Josh_Soref]
... so if i'm just looking for "email addresses", that would be the service id
14:34:42 [Josh_Soref]
... i expect there to be innovation in that area
14:34:53 [Josh_Soref]
... you can have as many service types as you like
14:34:57 [Josh_Soref]
... and you request a subset
14:35:01 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: that makes sense too
14:35:04 [Josh_Soref]
Josh_Soref: +1
14:35:28 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: i'll send out the CfC, and we can move pretty fast w/ or w/o a call
14:35:33 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: thanks Jungkee , Josh_Soref
14:35:39 [Josh_Soref]
topic: Ambient Light Intent
14:35:45 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: dougt has created a new draft
14:35:48 [fjh]
Latest draft,
14:35:53 [Josh_Soref]
... there were a few clarifying things on the list
14:36:02 [Josh_Soref]
... i think we'll publish an update fairly soon
14:36:06 [Josh_Soref]
... i guess that's a FPWD
14:36:21 [Josh_Soref]
... oh, we already have a FPWD
14:36:26 [Josh_Soref]
... so it'll be an update
14:36:34 [Josh_Soref]
... i don't think there's anything to discuss today
14:36:39 [Josh_Soref]
Topic: HTML Media Capture
14:36:48 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: we have to move through LC comments
14:36:53 [fjh]
14:36:56 [Josh_Soref]
... i don't think we're done w/ shepazu's comments
14:37:01 [fjh]
14:37:09 [Josh_Soref]
... i haven't had a chance to go through them
14:37:12 [fjh]
LC-2644 possible resolution,
14:37:14 [Josh_Soref]
... i think we have a resolution for one
14:37:25 [fjh]
"If document scanners and live scanners declaring themselves as cameras is a viable technical solution, it is fine."
14:37:42 [Josh_Soref]
Josh_Soref: Camera is a "still image capture device"
14:38:02 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: i think that's resolved
14:38:09 [Josh_Soref]
... we might need to clarify that somewhere in the doc
14:38:21 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: does anyone have any concern?
14:38:23 [Josh_Soref]
[ None ]
14:38:40 [fjh]
action: fjh to draft text proposal to resolve LC-2644
14:38:40 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-577 - Draft text proposal to resolve LC-2644 [on Frederick Hirsch - due 2012-09-26].
14:39:17 [Josh_Soref]
Topic: Web Intents Addendum
14:39:21 [fjh]
14:39:24 [Zakim]
14:39:35 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: i think we're waiting on Cathy 's request for changes
14:39:43 [Josh_Soref]
Cathy: nothing on my part
14:39:49 [Josh_Soref]
... i think Claes is waiting for comments
14:39:58 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: i don't think we need to wait for comments before FPWD
14:40:07 [Josh_Soref]
... the act of FPWD will invite comments
14:40:07 [fjh]
Propose to WebIntents TF to publish FPWD of "Web Intents Addendum - Local Services"
14:40:15 [Zakim]
14:40:31 [Josh_Soref]
Claes: i think that would be good
14:40:49 [fjh]
action: fjh to propose FPWD publication of "Web Intents Addendum - Local Services" on TF
14:40:49 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-578 - Propose FPWD publication of "Web Intents Addendum - Local Services" on TF [on Frederick Hirsch - due 2012-09-26].
14:41:00 [fjh]
fjh: publication of FPWD should solicit comments
14:42:04 [Josh_Soref]
RESOLUTION: DAP is ok with a FPWD of Web Intents Addendum - Local Services
14:42:21 [Josh_Soref]
Topic: TPAC F2F
14:42:23 [fjh]
Please remember to complete the WG questionnaire for the F2F and also the TPAC registration as well as making your travel arrangements.
14:42:23 [fjh] ;
14:42:34 [fjh]
Please suggest topics for DAP F2F agenda:
14:42:52 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: i think we'll spend a good amount of time on Web Intents
14:43:02 [Josh_Soref]
... related, and how to work w/ whatwg
14:43:11 [Josh_Soref]
... Web Intents, Pick Contacts, Pick Media
14:43:18 [Josh_Soref]
... and HTML MC
14:43:27 [Josh_Soref]
... i'd prefer for people to edit the wiki directly
14:43:38 [Josh_Soref]
... does anyone have suggestions regarding the F2F?
14:43:50 [Josh_Soref]
... it looks like the Media TF will meet
14:44:04 [Josh_Soref]
... we might want to suggest they meet on Tuesday
14:44:32 [Josh_Soref]
... i think we're required to have a draft agenda 2 weeks before the F2F
14:44:40 [Josh_Soref]
dsr: the other thing to do is Observers
14:44:48 [Josh_Soref]
... to figure out how many are attending
14:44:54 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: to give them permissions
14:45:00 [Josh_Soref]
Josh_Soref: and to calculate room size
14:45:05 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: please think about the agenda
14:45:18 [Josh_Soref]
Topic: Actions
14:45:26 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: i need to resolve/reassign darobin 's
14:45:59 [fjh]
14:45:59 [trackbot]
ACTION-565 -- Josh Soref to propose text for HTML Media Capture to allow for alternative capture device if specified device not available -- due 2012-08-22 -- OPEN
14:45:59 [trackbot]
14:46:16 [Josh_Soref]
Josh_Soref: if you want to do it
14:46:20 [Josh_Soref]
... i think we're on the same page
14:46:38 [fjh]
14:46:38 [trackbot]
ACTION-568 -- Jungkee Song to work with Robin to move darobin to move API Cookbook to w3c space and prepare for publication as W3C FPWD NOTE -- due 2012-08-29 -- OPEN
14:46:38 [trackbot]
14:46:56 [Josh_Soref]
Jungkee: i spoke with darobin
14:47:03 [Josh_Soref]
... he's going to do the action very soon
14:47:08 [Josh_Soref]
... i'm waiting for that
14:47:13 [Josh_Soref]
... it should happen within a week
14:47:28 [fjh]
14:47:28 [trackbot]
ACTION-519 -- Claes Nilsson to add a proposal for hidden disposition. -- due 2012-08-15 -- OPEN
14:47:28 [trackbot]
14:47:46 [fjh]
in progress
14:48:00 [fjh]
14:48:00 [trackbot]
ACTION-572 -- Frederick Hirsch to move specs in the home page Roadmap to 'Exploratory Work' section -- due 2012-09-05 -- PENDINGREVIEW
14:48:00 [trackbot]
14:48:05 [fjh]
close ACTION-572
14:48:05 [trackbot]
ACTION-572 Move specs in the home page Roadmap to 'Exploratory Work' section closed
14:49:06 [Zakim]
14:49:08 [Zakim]
14:49:26 [fjh]
Topic: Adjourn
14:49:26 [Zakim]
14:49:29 [Zakim]
14:50:07 [dtran]
Galaxy Nexus has pressure sensor
14:50:21 [Zakim]
14:52:44 [Zakim]
14:52:48 [Zakim]
14:52:50 [Josh_Soref]
trackbot, end meeting
14:52:50 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
14:52:50 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been ccourtney, Josh_Soref, fjh, +25686aabb, Dsr, Alexander_Salas, dtran, SungOk_You, Jungkee, +, Milan_Patel, Giri_Mandyam,
14:52:53 [Zakim]
... richt, Clarke, Cathy
14:52:53 [Zakim]
14:52:55 [Zakim]
14:52:58 [Zakim]
14:52:58 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
14:52:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate trackbot
14:52:59 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
14:52:59 [RRSAgent]
I see 3 open action items saved in :
14:52:59 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: fjh to send CfC for removal of search from Pick Contacts [1]
14:52:59 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
14:52:59 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: fjh to draft text proposal to resolve LC-2644 [2]
14:52:59 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
14:52:59 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: fjh to propose FPWD publication of "Web Intents Addendum - Local Services" on TF [3]
14:52:59 [RRSAgent]
recorded in