13:38:33 RRSAgent has joined #dap 13:38:33 logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/09/19-dap-irc 13:38:35 RRSAgent, make logs world 13:38:35 Zakim has joined #dap 13:38:37 Zakim, this will be DAP 13:38:37 ok, trackbot; I see UW_DAP()10:00AM scheduled to start in 22 minutes 13:38:38 Meeting: Device APIs Working Group Teleconference 13:38:38 Date: 19 September 2012 13:39:23 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2012Sep/0081.html 13:44:07 Chair: Frederick_Hirsch 13:44:15 Present+ Frederick_Hirsch 13:49:10 ccourtney has joined #dap 13:49:32 Present+ Colin_Courtney 13:50:39 dsr has joined #dap 13:51:40 UW_DAP()10:00AM has now started 13:51:48 +ccourtney 13:54:07 +Josh_Soref 13:54:55 Scribe: Josh_Soref 13:55:04 Zakim, who is on the call? 13:55:04 On the phone I see ccourtney, Josh_Soref 13:55:42 SungOk_You has joined #dap 13:56:43 Milan_Patel has joined #dap 13:57:40 Clarke has joined #dap 13:58:16 +??P7 13:58:20 zakim, ??P7 is me 13:58:20 +fjh; got it 13:58:26 zakim, who is here? 13:58:26 On the phone I see ccourtney, Josh_Soref, fjh 13:58:27 On IRC I see Clarke, Milan_Patel, SungOk_You, dsr, ccourtney, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, Paul_Kinlan, glenn, AlexanderSalas, darobin, richt, tobie, Josh_Soref, slightlyoff, mounir, 13:58:27 ... trackbot, hiroto_away, dom 13:59:12 + +1.858.780.aaaa 13:59:36 gmandyam has joined #dap 13:59:46 Jungkee has joined #dap 13:59:57 Giri Mandyam from Qualcomm Innovation Center here - dialing in from (858) area code 13:59:57 Present+ Jungkee_Song 13:59:59 + +25686aabb 14:00:11 Present+ SungOk_You 14:00:23 dtran has joined #dap 14:00:24 Present+ Milan_Patel 14:00:30 +Present Dzung_Tran 14:00:33 Present+ Giri_Mandyam 14:00:47 +[IPcaller] 14:01:03 Present+ Alexander_Salas 14:01:11 +Dsr 14:01:28 Present+ Dave_Raggett 14:01:30 zakim, [IPCaller] is Alexander_Salas 14:01:30 +Alexander_Salas; got it 14:01:39 +dtran 14:01:40 Present+ Clarke_Stevens 14:01:53 +[IPcaller] 14:02:13 richt has joined #dap 14:02:35 zakim, who is here? 14:02:35 On the phone I see ccourtney, Josh_Soref, fjh, +1.858.780.aaaa, +25686aabb, Alexander_Salas, Dsr, dtran (muted), [IPcaller] 14:02:38 On IRC I see richt, dtran, Jungkee, gmandyam, Clarke, Milan_Patel, SungOk_You, dsr, ccourtney, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, glenn, AlexanderSalas, darobin, tobie, Josh_Soref, slightlyoff, 14:02:42 Claes has joined #dap 14:02:43 ... mounir, trackbot, hiroto_away, dom 14:02:45 zakim, [IPcaller] is me 14:02:47 +SungOk_You; got it 14:02:53 -SungOk_You 14:02:58 +lstorset 14:03:11 +[IPcaller] 14:03:12 Zakim, [IPCaller] is me 14:03:12 +Jungkee; got it 14:03:26 zakim, +1.858.780.aaaa is me 14:03:27 +gmandyam; got it 14:03:29 zakim, [aabb] is me 14:03:29 sorry, Milan_Patel, I do not recognize a party named '[aabb]' 14:03:48 + +46.1.08.01.aacc - is perhaps Claes? 14:03:50 zakim, aabb is me 14:03:50 +Milan_Patel; got it 14:03:55 Zakim, [IPCaller] is me 14:03:55 sorry, SungOk_You, I do not recognize a party named '[IPCaller]' 14:04:08 zakim, aacc is Claes 14:04:08 sorry, Claes, I do not recognize a party named 'aacc' 14:04:14 zakim, gmandyam is Giri_Mandyam 14:04:14 +Giri_Mandyam; got it 14:04:26 zakim, aacc is me 14:04:26 sorry, Claes, I do not recognize a party named 'aacc' 14:04:43 Topic: Administrative 14:04:50 Josh_Soref: Next week is Yom Kippur 14:05:16 You can declare your phone number via the W3C User Search Form https://www.w3.org/Systems/db/userSearch and then click on the contact tab after having found yourself 14:05:20 fjh: are there other people in Josh_Soref 's situation 14:05:33 I will be away for next 2 weeks. 14:05:39 zakim, lstorset is me 14:05:39 +richt; got it 14:05:49 PING http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-privacy/2012JulSep/0059.html 14:05:55 fjh: there's a PING call 14:07:56 Present+ Claes_Nilsson 14:08:03 PING is the privacy interest group, tomorrow call will have Dom reviewing 'Permissions on the Web', possible privacy review of WebIntents; I believe Paul Kinlan plans to attend as well as myself 14:08:11 to attend you need to join PING 14:08:14 Present+ Dzung_Tran 14:08:41 I attended an earlier PING call and reviewed DAP privacy work in general 14:08:53 Josh_Soref: Got it. I'll make sure to change that next time. 14:08:53 Topic: Minutes Approval 14:08:55 Topic: Minutes Approval 14:09:06 fjh: we'll defer until next week 14:09:09 Josh_Soref: i sent out a draft 14:09:15 ... i'm going to send out a revised version 14:09:24 topic: Pick-Contact 14:09:26 Pick Contacts Intent updated, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2012Sep/0058.html 14:09:40 Jungkee: i updated webidl definitions 14:09:43 s/Pick-Contact/Pick Contacts Intent/ 14:09:49 ... the type of array from Sequence Type 14:10:13 ... dictionaries are pass by value 14:10:22 ... one topic is search capability 14:10:35 ... based on the intent discussion, we lost the extra field 14:10:57 ... the extra field was meant to deliver types 14:11:13 ... now we want to deliver type in the specific api 14:11:22 ... for Pick-Contact/Pick-Media 14:11:31 ... the need to request certain fields 14:11:36 q+ 14:11:40 q+ 14:11:45 ... i'd like to hear some opinions about search/filtering fields 14:11:56 ... maybe we can use the data field 14:12:06 ... but that's defined to deliver the object itself 14:12:20 ... maybe we put in extra information fields 14:12:24 ... any ideas? 14:12:31 fjh: it seems like there are two issues 14:12:36 ... 1. do we need search? 14:12:41 ... 2. can extras be used 14:12:51 ... I think being able to search makes sense 14:12:57 Jungkee: in the case of pick-contact 14:13:05 ... contacts has quite a few fields 14:13:15 ... and the client developer may require some number of fields 14:13:24 ... explicitly from the services 14:13:29 q? 14:13:32 q- 14:13:33 ... filtering capability is kind of necessary 14:13:37 ack josh_soref 14:14:19 josh_soref: at least initially, would rather see the providers manage this, they can design a better UI 14:14:33 josh_soref: then we can think about an API 14:15:00 josh_soref: there are too many ways to define a contacts database, for example an address field, various types with different semantics, eg. business address vs address 14:15:16 josh_soref: thus it isn't clear search will work as expected, depending on assumptions 14:15:37 josh_soref: will need to work out patterns over time, then eventually standardize it 14:15:58 josh_soref: also bad if request has to include 1,000 fields 14:16:17 josh_soref: pick contacts and then fields you want (?) 14:16:29 +1 to Josh_Soref. Leave search/filtering up to providers initially. 14:16:32 josh_soref: josh suggests naviating through contacts 14:16:48 gary: pushing it to user dialog box? 14:16:50 gmandyam: aren't you putting the problem of 1000 fields from the intent invocation 14:16:55 ... and into the dialog box 14:17:10 s|gary: pushing it to user dialog box?|| 14:18:19 josh_soref: case of picking intent provider or not, once picked then service provider can provide search, e.g. facebook does, google does, 14:18:34 Clarke_ has joined #dap 14:18:35 josh_soref: so good service providers already do this 14:18:38 Cathy has joined #dap 14:19:19 josh_soref: users would prefer seeing familiar sp interface 14:19:33 fjh: I could argue that is not aways true if users wish to use multiple services.... 14:19:36 +Clarke 14:19:45 josh_soref: so lets leave it to the sp 14:20:04 Jungkee: the client developer just want to make some specific request 14:20:15 ... the fields that they can specify in filtering property 14:20:28 ... is confined to fields already defined in the contacts intent spec 14:20:34 ... it's constrained 14:20:47 ... 1000 fields isn't going to happen 14:20:53 ... it's just a hint to the sp 14:20:58 ... if the client has a specific UC 14:21:20 glenn has joined #dap 14:21:26 +??P10 14:21:33 zakim, ??P10 is me 14:21:34 +Cathy; got it 14:22:42 Josh_Soref: Clients will always have to have adaptation code 14:22:57 ... for when Providers don't honor their "hints" or fill in fields sufficiently 14:23:16 q+ 14:23:20 ... by not having hints, Providers are forced to consider users' Data privacy at a field level 14:23:25 ... and design a UI to address this 14:23:39 ... the Clients are saved from some extra field filling which would be ignored 14:23:47 ... either way they had to write the adaptation code 14:23:52 s/they/they [the clients]/ 14:24:06 glenn has joined #dap 14:24:10 ... and the Providers don't get led down a path where they just provide all requested fields 14:24:20 ... they have to think about and design a privacy conscious UI 14:24:23 ack fjh 14:24:39 fjh: [summarizing] 14:24:50 ... pushing the search capabilities to the service provider 14:25:01 ... you avoid issues of semantics for the service provider 14:25:14 q+ 14:25:20 ... you reduce confusion for the user, and increase familiarity for the user 14:25:48 ... the flip side is what happens for multiple providers 14:25:55 ... or for non web providers 14:25:57 ack me 14:26:12 fjh: possible confusion for user accessing variety of providers 14:26:39 josh_soref: for non-web provider (e.g. local) someone has to write adaptation code, will create UI 14:26:49 josh_soref: e.g. for phone, would try to make it close to phone feel 14:27:17 josh_soref: would have to consider privacy regardless, so not really different case 14:27:23 q? 14:27:59 josh_soref: can address confusion of multiple providers through the use of an aggregator 14:28:36 fjh: I thought initially in contacts API we had search to avoid retrieving more information than needed, data minimization 14:29:55 josh_soref: regarding only retrieving certain fields, I suggest it is more common to request all, since users want to make sure they get what they need, and not blank fields 14:30:12 glenn has joined #dap 14:30:35 fjh: i think we need a CfC on the lis 14:30:38 s/lis/list/ 14:30:43 ... obviously it simplifies stuff for us 14:30:55 ... there's a certain logic to that, they know what matters to people in their domain 14:31:08 richt: i think leaving it to the providers initially is in their interest 14:31:16 ... they don't want to give away the farm 14:31:21 ... they won't be giving out everything 14:31:27 ... if there was an invisible context 14:31:41 ... there should be a return nothing 14:31:45 ... XXX 14:31:54 ... if providers return the same thing, we can later codify that 14:32:00 ... providers will want to protect their users 14:32:13 fjh: it has the benefit that there's someone you can sue in court 14:32:19 ... by leaving things to the providers 14:32:21 richt: right 14:32:30 ... if the api has a bug in it, and it malfunctions, that's bad 14:32:39 fjh: i'm looking to see how to make it a specific thing 14:32:46 ... CfC would say we remove extras 14:32:54 ... and to remove the search functionality 14:33:03 Josh_Soref: i thought we already removed search 14:33:10 ... and we're just saying we're removing fields hints 14:33:13 s/fields/field/ 14:33:21 Jungkee: i haven't removed the search field yet 14:33:44 fjh: i'll send out a CfC that does remove search+filter+field-hint 14:33:49 ... i think we're agreed 14:34:02 ... but since people aren't on the call, i think we should send out to the list 14:34:19 richt: you could define different service types that provide subsets of contact information 14:34:24 action: fjh to send CfC for removal of search from Pick Contacts 14:34:24 Created ACTION-576 - Send CfC for removal of search from Pick Contacts [on Frederick Hirsch - due 2012-09-26]. 14:34:30 ... so if i'm just looking for "email addresses", that would be the service id 14:34:42 ... i expect there to be innovation in that area 14:34:53 ... you can have as many service types as you like 14:34:57 ... and you request a subset 14:35:01 fjh: that makes sense too 14:35:04 Josh_Soref: +1 14:35:28 fjh: i'll send out the CfC, and we can move pretty fast w/ or w/o a call 14:35:33 fjh: thanks Jungkee , Josh_Soref 14:35:39 topic: Ambient Light Intent 14:35:45 fjh: dougt has created a new draft 14:35:48 Latest draft, http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/dap/raw-file/tip/light/Overview.html 14:35:53 ... there were a few clarifying things on the list 14:36:02 ... i think we'll publish an update fairly soon 14:36:06 ... i guess that's a FPWD 14:36:21 ... oh, we already have a FPWD 14:36:26 ... so it'll be an update 14:36:34 ... i don't think there's anything to discuss today 14:36:39 Topic: HTML Media Capture 14:36:48 fjh: we have to move through LC comments 14:36:53 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2012Sep/0050.html 14:36:56 ... i don't think we're done w/ shepazu's comments 14:37:01 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2012Sep/0051.html 14:37:09 ... i haven't had a chance to go through them 14:37:12 LC-2644 possible resolution, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2012Sep/0079.html 14:37:14 ... i think we have a resolution for one 14:37:25 "If document scanners and live scanners declaring themselves as cameras is a viable technical solution, it is fine." 14:37:42 Josh_Soref: Camera is a "still image capture device" 14:38:02 fjh: i think that's resolved 14:38:09 ... we might need to clarify that somewhere in the doc 14:38:21 fjh: does anyone have any concern? 14:38:23 [ None ] 14:38:40 action: fjh to draft text proposal to resolve LC-2644 14:38:40 Created ACTION-577 - Draft text proposal to resolve LC-2644 [on Frederick Hirsch - due 2012-09-26]. 14:39:17 Topic: Web Intents Addendum 14:39:21 http://w3c-test.org/dap/wi-addendum-local-services/ 14:39:24 -Giri_Mandyam 14:39:35 fjh: i think we're waiting on Cathy 's request for changes 14:39:43 Cathy: nothing on my part 14:39:49 ... i think Claes is waiting for comments 14:39:58 fjh: i don't think we need to wait for comments before FPWD 14:40:07 ... the act of FPWD will invite comments 14:40:07 Propose to WebIntents TF to publish FPWD of "Web Intents Addendum - Local Services" 14:40:15 -richt 14:40:31 Claes: i think that would be good 14:40:49 action: fjh to propose FPWD publication of "Web Intents Addendum - Local Services" on TF 14:40:49 Created ACTION-578 - Propose FPWD publication of "Web Intents Addendum - Local Services" on TF [on Frederick Hirsch - due 2012-09-26]. 14:41:00 fjh: publication of FPWD should solicit comments 14:42:04 RESOLUTION: DAP is ok with a FPWD of Web Intents Addendum - Local Services 14:42:21 Topic: TPAC F2F 14:42:23 Please remember to complete the WG questionnaire for the F2F and also the TPAC registration as well as making your travel arrangements. 14:42:23 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/43696/dapf2ftpac2012/ ; http://www.w3.org/2012/10/TPAC/Overview.html#Registration 14:42:34 Please suggest topics for DAP F2F agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/wiki/F2F_Agenda_1-2_November_TPAC_Lyon_France 14:42:52 fjh: i think we'll spend a good amount of time on Web Intents 14:43:02 ... related, and how to work w/ whatwg 14:43:11 ... Web Intents, Pick Contacts, Pick Media 14:43:18 ... and HTML MC 14:43:27 ... i'd prefer for people to edit the wiki directly 14:43:38 ... does anyone have suggestions regarding the F2F? 14:43:50 ... it looks like the Media TF will meet 14:44:04 ... we might want to suggest they meet on Tuesday 14:44:32 ... i think we're required to have a draft agenda 2 weeks before the F2F 14:44:40 dsr: the other thing to do is Observers 14:44:48 ... to figure out how many are attending 14:44:54 fjh: to give them permissions 14:45:00 Josh_Soref: and to calculate room size 14:45:05 fjh: please think about the agenda 14:45:18 Topic: Actions 14:45:26 fjh: i need to resolve/reassign darobin 's 14:45:59 ACTION-565? 14:45:59 ACTION-565 -- Josh Soref to propose text for HTML Media Capture to allow for alternative capture device if specified device not available -- due 2012-08-22 -- OPEN 14:45:59 http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/565 14:46:16 Josh_Soref: if you want to do it 14:46:20 ... i think we're on the same page 14:46:38 ACTION-568? 14:46:38 ACTION-568 -- Jungkee Song to work with Robin to move darobin to move API Cookbook to w3c space and prepare for publication as W3C FPWD NOTE -- due 2012-08-29 -- OPEN 14:46:38 http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/568 14:46:56 Jungkee: i spoke with darobin 14:47:03 ... he's going to do the action very soon 14:47:08 ... i'm waiting for that 14:47:13 ... it should happen within a week 14:47:28 ACTION-519? 14:47:28 ACTION-519 -- Claes Nilsson to add a proposal for hidden disposition. -- due 2012-08-15 -- OPEN 14:47:28 http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/519 14:47:46 in progress 14:48:00 ACTION-572? 14:48:00 ACTION-572 -- Frederick Hirsch to move specs in the home page Roadmap to 'Exploratory Work' section -- due 2012-09-05 -- PENDINGREVIEW 14:48:00 http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/572 14:48:05 close ACTION-572 14:48:05 ACTION-572 Move specs in the home page Roadmap to 'Exploratory Work' section closed 14:49:06 -Clarke 14:49:08 -ccourtney 14:49:26 Topic: Adjourn 14:49:26 -Dsr 14:49:29 -Alexander_Salas 14:50:07 Galaxy Nexus has pressure sensor 14:50:21 -dtran 14:52:44 -Josh_Soref 14:52:48 -fjh 14:52:50 trackbot, end meeting 14:52:50 Zakim, list attendees 14:52:50 As of this point the attendees have been ccourtney, Josh_Soref, fjh, +25686aabb, Dsr, Alexander_Salas, dtran, SungOk_You, Jungkee, +46.1.08.01.aacc, Milan_Patel, Giri_Mandyam, 14:52:53 ... richt, Clarke, Cathy 14:52:53 -Jungkee 14:52:55 -Cathy 14:52:58 -Milan_Patel 14:52:58 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 14:52:58 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/19-dap-minutes.html trackbot 14:52:59 RRSAgent, bye 14:52:59 I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/09/19-dap-actions.rdf : 14:52:59 ACTION: fjh to send CfC for removal of search from Pick Contacts [1] 14:52:59 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/09/19-dap-irc#T14-34-24 14:52:59 ACTION: fjh to draft text proposal to resolve LC-2644 [2] 14:52:59 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/09/19-dap-irc#T14-38-40 14:52:59 ACTION: fjh to propose FPWD publication of "Web Intents Addendum - Local Services" on TF [3] 14:52:59 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/09/19-dap-irc#T14-40-49