14:07:55 RRSAgent has joined #html-media
14:07:55 logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/09/18-html-media-irc
14:07:57 RRSAgent, make logs public
14:07:57 Zakim has joined #html-media
14:07:57 zakim, ping me in 50
14:07:57 ok, matt
14:07:59 Zakim, this will be 63342
14:07:59 ok, trackbot; I see HTML_WG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 53 minutes
14:08:00 Meeting: HTML Media Task Force Teleconference
14:08:00 Date: 18 September 2012
14:41:50 Geunhyung_Kim has joined #html-media
14:53:23 adrianba has joined #html-media
14:57:57 matt, you asked to be pinged at this time
14:58:26 HTML_WG()11:00AM has now started
14:58:33 +markw
14:59:06 Clarke has joined #html-media
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14:59:46 zakim, dial matt-voip
14:59:46 ok, matt; the call is being made
14:59:47 +Matt
15:00:02 ddorwin has joined #html-media
15:00:11 +Clarke
15:00:12 zakim, who is on the phone?
15:00:13 On the phone I see markw, Matt, Clarke
15:00:29 paulc has joined #html-media
15:01:18 +ddorwin
15:01:39 johnsim has joined #html-media
15:01:42 joesteele has joined #html-media
15:02:10 +[Microsoft]
15:02:13 zakim, [Microsoft] has paulc, adrianba
15:02:13 +paulc, adrianba; got it
15:02:29 +[Microsoft.a]
15:02:47 zakim, who is on the phone?
15:02:47 On the phone I see markw, Matt, Clarke, ddorwin, [Microsoft], [Microsoft.a]
15:02:50 [Microsoft] has paulc, adrianba
15:03:16 + +1.408.536.aaaa
15:03:24 whadar has joined #html-media
15:03:41 hi
15:03:44 Zakim, aaaa is joesteele
15:03:44 +joesteele; got it
15:03:51 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2012Sep/0015.html
15:04:58 ScribeNick: joesteele
15:05:21 zakim, who is on the phone?
15:05:21 On the phone I see markw, Matt, Clarke, ddorwin, [Microsoft], [Microsoft.a], joesteele
15:05:23 [Microsoft] has paulc, adrianba
15:05:44 zakim, [Microsoft.a] is johnsim
15:05:45 +johnsim; got it
15:05:50 Topic: Agenda
15:06:02 zakim, who is on the phone?
15:06:02 On the phone I see markw, Matt, Clarke, ddorwin, [Microsoft], johnsim, joesteele
15:06:05 [Microsoft] has paulc, adrianba
15:06:16 Topic: Minutes from Sept 4
15:07:13 paulc: make sure we get the attendees correct
15:07:34 Topic: Review Action Items
15:07:42 paulc: on the agenda
15:07:57 Topic: Baselin docs and Bugzilla info
15:08:05 s/Baselin/Baseline/
15:08:31 http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/encrypted-media/encrypted-media.html
15:08:33 paulc: did click on the link -- did not look like it has been worked on
15:08:44 ddorwin: added some update last night
15:09:05 paulc: encrypted media bugs have more open now
15:09:14 paulc: regressed a bit?
15:09:21 joesteele: I reopened a few
15:09:36 http://tinyurl.com/7tfambo
15:09:40 paulc: added those bugs to the agenda
15:09:59 Topic: Actions from previous meeting
15:10:04 paulc: any progress?
15:10:13 paulc: Action 2?
15:10:23 ACTION-2?
15:10:23 ACTION-2 -- Mark Watson to propose a resolution to bug 17673 -- due 2012-08-17 -- CLOSED
15:10:23 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/media/track/actions/2
15:10:26 Zakim: who is on the call?
15:11:04 johnsim: not at this time now
15:11:08 paulc: ETA?
15:11:17 johnsim: should have something this week
15:11:23 Zakim, who is on the call?
15:11:23 On the phone I see markw, Matt, Clarke, ddorwin, [Microsoft], johnsim, joesteele
15:11:26 [Microsoft] has paulc, adrianba
15:11:38 johnsim: spent some time on the common key question
15:11:47 s/Zakim: who is on the call?//
15:12:00 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17673 is assigned to John Simmons. No progress at this time
15:12:22 ACTION-3?
15:12:22 ACTION-3 -- John Simmons to propose resolution to bug 17682 -- due 2012-09-11 -- OPEN
15:12:22 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/media/track/actions/3
15:12:38 paulc: last time we changed the due date for this to Sept 11
15:12:49 .. john you mentioned you did some work
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15:12:58 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17682
15:12:59 zakim, who is on the phone
15:12:59 I don't understand 'who is on the phone', markw
15:13:03 johnsim: did some research, adrian and I discussed this yesterday
15:13:21 … there is some lack of clarity on how the key is used
15:13:34 … up till now discussed as a key act. proposal
15:13:43 s/act./acquiisition/
15:13:53 johnsim: but how do you use that key?
15:14:05 … assumption is by examination of the media
15:14:25 … ISO based format, Common Encryption Format, etc.
15:14:43 … would know intrinsically how to handle it
15:15:11 … problem with this approach is that if goal is to produce interoperable solution between browsers
15:15:28 … common encryption modality without reference to DRM
15:15:38 +pal
15:15:47 … how do you assure that all the browsers understand the different media types?
15:16:03 johnsim: need to understand the intent behind clearkey
15:16:19 … we can consider it good if it only handles key acquisition
15:16:37 .. but if goal is to create an interoperable solution, we need to be normative about the encryption
15:16:46 … modes algorithms etc.
15:16:56 ddorwin: intent was the latter
15:17:02 zakim, mute me
15:17:02 Matt should now be muted
15:17:07 + +1.858.677.aabb
15:17:16 ddorwin: at the encryption level as well
15:17:32 … could call AddKey multiple times
15:17:51 … AES-128 CTR seems to be common, if there are containers that do not specify that we need to deal with that
15:18:10 … WebM does not need to specify that? (please correct if I mistated)
15:18:27 johnsim: if you don't know that it is encrypted it will just be unrecognizable
15:18:41 ddorwin: container format specifies how it is encrypted
15:19:02 johnsim: container level encryption is not covered by this spec then?
15:19:12 … i.e. HLS
15:19:25 … so the media stack can always determine the type of encryption to be used
15:19:34 ddorwing: that was the intent -- have not thought deeply
15:19:39 q+
15:19:44 s/ddorwing/ddorwin/
15:19:52 ack adr
15:20:08 adrianba: think this is slightly different than what john sumarized
15:20:46 … clear key should work the same way for content encrypted at the container format
15:20:56 … if possible for other DRMs
15:21:11 s/sumarized/summarized/
15:21:26 s/clear key/clearkey/
15:21:57 clear key should be as usable with media files as with a DRM system
15:22:10 pal has joined #html-media
15:22:15 if the media format supports envelope encryption (e.g. HLS) then this would also work with Clear Key
15:22:57 johnsim: if it is container level encryption - the CDM will not be able to examine the container to determine how the encryption was performed
15:23:26 johnsim: you could set up a mime-handler that knows how to handle it
15:23:48 johnsim: does not seem like this was envisioned to support container level encryption
15:24:05 q+
15:24:20 ack adr
15:24:21 johnsim: does not seem practical to implement clearkey for container level encryption
15:24:30 q+
15:24:46 adrianba: I think as interoperable code you have to understand how the format works in either case
15:25:00 … this is related to a later agenda item
15:25:16 … being able to start the key request without knowing the content/media type
15:25:43 … think we need to understand the media type to be able to fire up the approp. CDM
15:25:55 … need indicator of what is encrypted and how
15:26:14 … this will need to be defined normatively somewhere
15:26:42 paulc: high level comment -- sounds like this should be written down in an email thread
15:26:52 … need a wider group to review it
15:26:55 ack dd
15:27:10 q+
15:27:11 ddorwin: it was intended to be clear that the container specifies this stuff
15:27:51 ddorwin: what john was talking about should be separate from clearkey -- e.g. needKey event is independent fro a key system
15:28:12 … for any of these events we want to be commonly supported need specification
15:28:56 ACTION-3 due in 1 week
15:28:56 ACTION-3 Propose resolution to bug 17682 due date now in 1 week
15:29:02 paulc: moving on. need to extend ACTION-3
15:29:10 paulc: ACITON-4
15:29:16 ACTION-4?
15:29:16 ACTION-4 -- David Dorwin to propose a solution for bug 17672 -- due 2012-09-18 -- CLOSED
15:29:16 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/media/track/actions/4
15:29:37 ddorwin: added a new section 7.1
15:29:48 … rest of the document is container independent
15:29:51 - +1.858.677.aabb
15:29:52 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17672
15:29:54 … defines how WebM is encrypted
15:29:55 http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/encrypted-media/encrypted-media.html#webm
15:30:14 paulc: is this what is needed?
15:30:28 ddorwin: yes, content is correct
15:30:43 paulc: marked as RESOLVED, FIXED
15:31:18 ACTION-5?
15:31:18 ACTION-5 -- Mark Watson to follow-up on Key Release mail thread now that the OO changes have been made - discuss on next call -- due 2012-08-28 -- CLOSED
15:31:18 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/media/track/actions/5
15:31:36 paulc: have not checked whether this is done -- no record of emails on it
15:31:54 paulc: not sure what the status is -- was assigned to Mark?
15:32:16 paulc: Mark can you update us?
15:32:41 markw: no followup yet, have some notes in the bug itself I think
15:32:51 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2012Sep/0004.html
15:32:55 paulc: don't see an associated bug
15:33:17 markw: there is a bug for key release
15:33:36 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17199
15:33:38 ddorwin: posted a link with a proposed solution, next step is for Mark to add to the spec
15:33:42 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17199
15:34:03 paulc: Mark should either respond to the proposal or update the spec
15:34:25 Topic: Unresolved Bugs
15:34:35 paulc: reopened bugs by Joe
15:34:52 previous topic: last email on action 5: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2012Sep/0012.html
15:35:01 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17470
15:35:34 "Provide specific guidance on when generateKeyRequest should be called "
15:35:46 joesteele: the use case i'm thinking of is for the access DRM there are certain keys i can preload ahead of time
15:36:07 ... there might be a substantial cost in requesting the keys that would affect the user experience
15:36:16 ... i don't know what the media format is going to be yet
15:36:23 ... i can make some guesses
15:36:38 ... in most cases i probably would know the media type but in the general case i don't know the type
15:36:51 ... but i do know that a particular set of domain keys will be needed
15:37:02 ... so i want to be able to do a key request without having seen any media yet
15:37:20 q+
15:37:43 ddorwin: i think you can create a MediaKeys object without a media type
15:37:54 joesteele: it's not clear where the errors go
15:38:22 ddorwin: you can create a MediaKeys object and then createSession to get a MediaKeySession object and events get fired here
15:38:27 ack john
15:38:44 ack adr
15:39:36 q+
15:39:52 adrianba: is it not true that you need the media file format to know the format of the initdata
15:40:24 ... for example in ISO BMFF we've assumed that initdata is a concatenated list of pssh boxes
15:40:43 ddorwin: i don't think there is initdata in this situation
15:41:10 joesteele: that brings up one of the issues, if you create a session without initdata then an error is thrown
15:41:27 ... i'm okay if you have to say there is initdata we can fake it up
15:41:51 ddorwin: the spec says you must have initdata and mime type or neither?
15:41:55 q+
15:43:55 q?
15:44:04 createSession() may be called with no parameters
15:44:12 +q
15:44:31 ack dd
15:45:30 ddorwin: the algorithm says that if the type is null and initdata is NOT null then it's an error - anything else is allowed
15:45:31 joesteele: I would like to see an example in the spec of how to initialize
15:45:44 paulc: can you provide the example for us?
15:45:55 q-
15:45:56 joesteele: ye s-- I will do that
15:45:59 ack ad
15:46:03 ack john
15:46:36 johsim: the wording is ambiguous for step 1 of createSession steps
15:46:47 s/johsim/johnsim/
15:47:09 paulc: maybe put (or an empty string) in parens
15:47:29 paulc: suggest to joe to provide the sample
15:47:45 paulc: editors can then decide how to handle
15:47:54 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17660
15:48:24 joesteele: this is a related issue
15:48:33 ... when i asked about authentication at the F2F
15:48:43 ... i was told it would done at the app level not in the CDM
15:48:55 ... but in the Access case, authentication is bound into th ekey request channel
15:49:03 ... and we have a lot of customers that use this channel
15:49:09 ... we think it is more secure than TLS auth
15:49:25 ... but i don't see another way to pass additional parameters down
15:49:34 ... without having to parse the key data coming back
15:49:39 ... which we want to avoid
15:49:54 ... in Access, you would understand that you need to do a key request
15:50:06 +q
15:50:14 ... and you would get a flag from the DRM system saying you need to get auth information
15:50:27 ... and you might prompt for username password and then pass it down into the DRM system
15:50:36 ack john
15:50:40 ... and there doesn't seem to be a mechanism to pass that in
15:51:04 joesteele: this is user authentication
15:51:13 johnsim: so user credentials associated with the event
15:51:51 joesteele: example: i log in to a web site where my queue of videos is but when i play a particular video it has credentials from a different service and so now i have to provide those to authenticate for it
15:51:58 q?
15:53:06 paulc: start an email thread pointing back to this comment
15:53:15 … add more details to the question in the comment
15:53:25 paulc: discussing 17682
15:53:47 paulc: this was discussed above under ACTION-3
15:53:56 Topic: Other Bugs
15:54:27 paulc: have a large number of bugs with no progress on them yet -- work going on in the background?
15:54:45 paulc: would like to know which items we can get done in next two weeks
15:54:53 q+
15:54:57 paulc: if so -- can editors propose which ones
15:55:03 ack adrian
15:55:35