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14:54:41 <fsasaki> meeting: MLW-LT WG
14:54:42 <fsasaki> chair: Felix
14:54:50 <fsasaki> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Sep/0055.html
14:54:53 <fsasaki> rrsagent, make log public
14:55:01 <fsasaki> scribe: tbd
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14:59:24 <fsasaki> present: Felix, Dave, David, Giuseppe, Phil
15:00:30 <fsasaki> present+ leroy, shaun
15:01:20 <fsasaki> regrets: jirka
15:01:49 <fsasaki> present+ ankit
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15:03:51 <fsasaki> present+ yves
15:04:15 <fsasaki> scribe: daveL
15:04:15 <daveL> scribe daveL
15:04:24 <fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Sep/0055.html
15:05:09 <Yves_> did we change Meeting Place number? The one I have is standing by.
15:05:16 <fsasaki> topic: html5 conformance
15:05:24 <fsasaki> https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/47
15:05:27 <daveL> agenda agreed
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15:05:36 <fsasaki> present+ des, pedro
15:05:47 <fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/drafts/its20/its20.html#conformance
15:06:09 <fsasaki> present+ milan
15:06:39 <daveL> fsasaki: spec currently discussed conformance for XML but not HTML
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15:07:43 <daveL> phil: tried some html5 parsing in a browser client way, but not through the whole value chain
15:07:55 <daveL> ... would be using xliff in other places
15:08:19 <dF> daveL, please mute yourself while not speaking..  
15:08:27 <fsasaki> 4.2 Conformance Type 2: The Processing Expectations for ITS Markup - separate mention of HTML5, separate tests
15:08:53 <daveL> fsasaki: asking does it make sense separate conformance sections for HTML5 and separate conformance tests - which are available already
15:08:58 <daveL> ... does everyone agree
15:09:31 <daveL> phil: clarifies that for html5 only planning to support quality data categories
15:09:48 <daveL> fsasaki: this is OK to only support one data category
15:10:08 <daveL> phil: for quality it would probably just be local mark-up as well
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15:11:06 <dF> Felix, we lost you?
15:11:57 <daveL> fsasaki: this is fine also
15:12:48 <daveL> shaunm: also planning to support HTML to the same level of XML currently, but not in the timeframe to support the spec progression
15:13:38 <daveL> fsasaki: this is fine, since it may make sense to have lower bar for conformance testing than for support in products
15:14:23 <daveL> ... so we push as much as possible for HTML, but its not then so critical to push on that for conofrmance
15:14:45 <fsasaki_> dave: agree with felix
15:14:51 <fsasaki_> .. HTML parsing is easy to do
15:15:06 <fsasaki_> .. makes it feasible to show HTML on business products, that's a learning curve
15:15:15 <fsasaki_> .. looking into the tests with leroy
15:15:30 <fsasaki_> .. once you have done a few tests, work with the data categories gets easier
15:15:43 <fsasaki_> .. the business requirements are natural a different area
15:15:54 <fsasaki_> .. but the pain barrier for parsing HTML gets easier
15:16:06 <fsasaki_> .. its the same pattern for many data categories
15:16:58 <dF> sounds good
15:17:03 <daveL> fsaski: any further question on issue of separating HTML implementaiton in useful products and the process of conformance testing
15:17:12 <daveL> Yves_: agrees
15:17:20 <daveL> Pedro: agrees
15:17:40 <daveL> action: fsaski to write up and close ISSUE-47
15:17:40 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - fsaski
15:17:57 <daveL>  action: fsasaki to write up and close ISSUE-47
15:18:15 <fsasaki_> topic: https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/49
15:19:34 <daveL> fsasaki: some mappings for quality data category currently in annex that Arle had developed from detailed knowledge of current tools
15:19:45 <daveL> ... but the tool may change over time.
15:19:56 <fsasaki_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its-ig/
15:20:18 <daveL> ... so should we move this to a separate area, i.e. the ITS IG
15:20:44 <daveL> ... this way discussion on these topics can continue after the completion of the MLW-LT WG
15:21:18 <daveL> Yves_: agrees
15:22:21 <daveL> fsasaki: this mailing list is completely public
15:22:38 <daveL> ... put should this be a wiki or a html page?
15:23:11 <daveL> Yves_: probably easier to use the wiki
15:23:47 <daveL> action: felix to move this material to the ITS IG wiki and remove the issue
15:23:47 <trackbot> Created ACTION-216 - Move this material to the ITS IG wiki and remove the issue [on Felix Sasaki - due 2012-09-20].
15:23:56 <fsasaki_> topic: https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/48
15:25:03 <daveL> yves: while inmplementing storage size, all line break in XML may be different in depending on platform, which may change the line count
15:25:15 <daveL> ... so asks for ideas on how to address this?
15:25:48 <daveL> dF: this is needed
15:26:02 <daveL> ... if the informaiton in the bom
15:27:03 <daveL> yves: proposes a way of recodnign this in the data category
15:27:34 <daveL> yves: need to include the value to be counted, including a default
15:27:49 <daveL> felix; should it be a list of codepoints
15:27:54 <daveL> yves; crap
15:28:11 <daveL> .. we can't do that
15:28:22 <daveL> ... will come up a proposal on the mailing list
15:28:56 <daveL> dF: propose considering CRLF as shown in editors
15:29:18 <daveL> ... and agree default is important
15:29:32 <daveL> yves: guess line feed would be the default
15:29:51 <daveL> ... will come up with a short proposal on the list
15:30:26 <daveL> action: yves to propose solution for recording soragesize count behaviour for line breaks
15:30:27 <trackbot> Created ACTION-217 - Propose solution for recording soragesize count behaviour for line breaks [on Yves Savourel - due 2012-09-20].
15:30:44 <fsasaki_> topic: https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/45
15:31:26 <daveL> felix: a lot of discussion in week on what was needed for HTML5
15:31:54 <daveL> ...which for a node is a document would say what ITS meta-data would be present
15:32:13 <daveL> phil: to understand more clearly would it be a read only API?
15:32:25 <daveL> felix; this is what he had in mind
15:32:48 <daveL> ... but also assume a write API
15:33:18 <daveL> shaun: would this be a requirement for ITS conformance
15:33:56 <daveL> felix: no, wasn't intention to specify the API in the standard, just to provide it as a useful peice of support software
15:34:09 <daveL> ... this might help for people to make use of ITS
15:34:54 <fsasaki_> dave: it is a nice thing in the portfolio
15:35:18 <fsasaki_> .. esp. for editing you can have an API only for local it seems
15:35:27 <fsasaki_> .. it just makes an easy entry point
15:35:50 <fsasaki_> .. mobile might be useful for this too
15:36:49 <daveL> phil: Ok so its clearer that its javascript, this is similar to what we've been prototyping
15:37:16 <daveL> ... but hadn't planned a releasable api
15:37:46 <daveL> ... have found a way to save output as a serialised XML file
15:38:20 <daveL> Des: this sound more like a client side library, suitable for best practice in a java script library
15:39:10 <daveL> phil: yes, felt this would be useful in scenario where access to other tools was limited but could enable access to some data categories
15:39:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/13-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki_
15:39:44 <daveL> ... can certainly see some common function we might want to use, but a way from that yet
15:40:25 <daveL> Des: there may be issues with browser dependency
15:40:49 <daveL> felix: it useful if we have initail exploration just to show that we are considering that issue
15:41:32 <fsasaki_> topic: https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/46
15:41:39 <daveL> ... so fleix to close this issue, and perhaps raise again at TPAC
15:41:57 <daveL> felix: had editorial comments from dave and aaron
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15:42:28 <daveL> ... but looking for volunteer to implement some of these
15:43:05 <fsasaki_> dave: happy to work on the word smithing part
15:43:19 <fsasaki_> .. would be good to separate this between a few people
15:43:30 <fsasaki_> .. don't want to go too far, and do that in small bits
15:43:52 <fsasaki_> .. examples thing is a good idea, but takes a lot of time
15:43:59 <fsasaki_> .. one question: in terms of the process
15:44:16 <fsasaki_> .. in terms of priorities: can we still do that after November
15:45:00 <daveL> felix: what document is on last call, as is out december deadline, this mean every word is finished
15:45:11 <daveL> ... strictly to the normative parts,
15:45:31 <daveL> ... but if its to the non normative parts to a large extent this is a problem also
15:46:13 <daveL> ... so changes are possible, but last call really mean freezing the text.
15:46:28 <daveL> ... so we need to do this before the end of November
15:46:51 <daveL> Shaun: happy to take on some of that work
15:47:39 <daveL> felix; there are comments form dave and aaron
15:48:09 <fsasaki_> dave: any help is good, but shaun is in a good position to look into HTML and XML
15:48:19 <fsasaki_> .. so trying with some of the examples might help
15:48:39 <fsasaki_> .. there is good examples here already, but they are worth a review
15:48:45 <fsasaki_> .. and the HTML is worth some effort
15:49:40 <daveL> action: shaun to provide some HMTL and revised XML example for introductor section, referencing comments from Dave and Aaron, but based on real use expereince
15:49:40 <trackbot> Created ACTION-218 - Provide some HMTL and revised XML example for introductor section, referencing comments from Dave and Aaron, but based on real use expereince [on Shaun McCance - due 2012-09-20].
15:49:55 <fsasaki_> topic: preparation for prague http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Sep/0045.html
15:51:00 <daveL> felix: some data categories stioll not very stable - proveance, mt confidence, text analysis
15:51:19 <daveL> ... we know people are working on showcases but we need good specification also
15:51:34 <daveL> ... so we need some face to face time in the meeting to wrap these up
15:53:07 <fsasaki_> dave: I'll take care of disambiguation, phil of provenance
15:53:40 <fsasaki_> ,, declan will look at the spec and implementation too
15:54:17 <daveL> felix: the other one is text analytics annotation
15:55:08 <daveL> ... asks DavidF about view on how certain part apply to document or segement, and also how to encode MT engine identification
15:56:10 <daveL> dF: though this was fairly stable, but we didn't want to prescribe how to represent this
15:56:56 <daveL> ... the requirement is that it unique on the platform but may then be dependent of the options the platform operator wanted to adopt
15:58:01 <daveL> ... though the t extension seems a good fit
15:59:24 <daveL> felix: was not clear how how prescriptive the text was meant to be on use of t values
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15:59:58 <daveL> ... since if MAY is used in a formal manner, that means that it is optional but still needs a conformance test for that option
16:01:24 <daveL> felix: seems to make sense, lets see whet delcan thinks as he revises this.
16:01:50 <daveL> ... Dave and David will be at LRC next week
16:02:31 <daveL> ... jirka will arrange a special fun event in Prague, evening of the first day - evening 25th
16:02:51 <daveL> rrsagent, generate minutes
16:02:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/13-mlw-lt-minutes.html daveL
16:03:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/13-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki_
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16:35:02 <fsasaki_> action: felix to write up and close issue-47
16:35:02 <trackbot> Created ACTION-219 - Write up and close issue-47 [on Felix Sasaki - due 2012-09-20].
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