IRC log of eval on 2012-09-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:51:33 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #eval
13:51:33 [RRSAgent]
logging to
13:51:35 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
13:51:35 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #eval
13:51:37 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 3825
13:51:37 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
13:51:38 [trackbot]
Meeting: WCAG 2.0 Evaluation Methodology Task Force Teleconference
13:51:38 [trackbot]
Date: 13 September 2012
13:53:48 [Kathy]
Kathy has joined #eval
13:56:08 [richard]
richard has joined #eval
13:57:52 [Detlev]
Detlev has joined #eval
13:58:44 [Zakim]
WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has now started
13:58:51 [Zakim]
13:59:16 [Liz]
Liz has joined #eval
14:00:03 [Zakim]
14:00:24 [Zakim]
14:00:32 [Zakim]
14:00:36 [ericvelleman]
ericvelleman has joined #eval
14:00:44 [Zakim]
14:00:52 [Zakim]
14:00:58 [Detlev]
Zakim. mute me
14:01:06 [Detlev]
Zakim, mute me
14:01:06 [Zakim]
Detlev should now be muted
14:01:14 [Zakim]
+ +1.517.353.aaaa
14:01:15 [richard]
zakim ??p17 is richard
14:01:26 [Zakim]
14:01:43 [Zakim]
14:01:51 [shadi]
zakim, ipcaller.a is me
14:01:51 [Zakim]
+shadi; got it
14:02:00 [Zakim]
+ +1.510.334.aabb
14:02:07 [shadi]
zakim, who is on the phone?
14:02:07 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Detlev (muted), Liz, Kathy, [IPcaller], Eric, +1.517.353.aaaa, shadi, +1.510.334.aabb
14:02:08 [Mike_]
Mike_ has joined #eval
14:02:28 [Zakim]
14:02:34 [shadi]
zakim, aabb is peter
14:02:34 [Zakim]
+peter; got it
14:02:40 [richard]
richard is p17
14:02:48 [shadi]
zakim, ??p17 is richard
14:02:48 [Zakim]
I already had ??P17 as Geoff_Freed, shadi
14:03:01 [shadi]
zakim, ??p22 is richard
14:03:06 [shadi]
zakim, who is on the phone?
14:03:06 [Zakim]
+richard; got it
14:03:12 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Detlev (muted), Liz, Kathy, [IPcaller], Eric, +1.517.353.aaaa, shadi, peter, richard
14:03:14 [kerstin]
kerstin has joined #eval
14:04:08 [shadi]
zakim, aaaa is Mike_
14:04:17 [shadi]
zakim, ipcaller is kerstin
14:04:21 [Zakim]
+Mike_; got it
14:04:27 [kerstin]
zakim, mute me
14:04:35 [Zakim]
+kerstin; got it
14:04:45 [Zakim]
kerstin should now be muted
14:05:19 [richard]
can you hear me?
14:05:28 [ericvelleman]
14:05:41 [richard]
Oh - something not right
14:06:09 [Detlev]
I can do it if no one else wants to
14:06:12 [Detlev]
14:06:24 [shadi]
scribe: Detlev
14:06:29 [shadi]
chair: Eric
14:06:38 [Detlev]
ack me
14:06:49 [Kathy]
zakim, mute me
14:06:49 [Zakim]
Kathy should now be muted
14:06:52 [shadi]
14:07:03 [shadi]
agenda+ Comments by WCAG WG for approval by EvalTF
14:07:11 [shadi]
agenda+ Open comments
14:07:20 [shadi]
agenda+ New graphics
14:07:44 [Sarah_Swierenga]
Sarah_Swierenga has joined #eval
14:08:08 [Zakim]
14:08:11 [Detlev]
..sorting out echo problem
14:08:11 [shadi]
zakim, who is making noise?
14:08:22 [Zakim]
shadi, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: peter (38%), Eric (13%), richard (38%)
14:08:25 [Zakim]
+ +1.517.432.aacc
14:08:30 [Detlev]
Zakim mute me
14:08:34 [shadi]
zakim, mute richar
14:08:34 [Zakim]
richard should now be muted
14:08:36 [Detlev]
Zakim, mute me
14:08:36 [Zakim]
Detlev should now be muted
14:09:42 [shadi]
zakim, aacc is Sarah_Swierenga
14:09:42 [Zakim]
+Sarah_Swierenga; got it
14:09:43 [kerstin]
No echo here
14:09:58 [Detlev]
Eric: 2nd agenda item, comments by WCAG WG
14:10:15 [ericvelleman]
14:10:18 [shadi]
zakim, who is on the phone?
14:10:18 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Detlev (muted), Liz, Kathy (muted), Eric, Mike_, shadi, peter, richard (muted), Sarah_Swierenga
14:10:21 [Detlev]
Eric: summary was mailed
14:10:32 [Tim]
Tim has joined #eval
14:11:01 [ericvelleman]
14:11:18 [Detlev]
Eric: New proposals to new issues
14:11:48 [korn]
korn has joined #eval
14:11:50 [Detlev]
Eric: agreed solutions already in thze editor draft - 2 issues 4b and 1d stil in discussion
14:12:06 [ericvelleman]
14:12:12 [Detlev]
Eric: let's discuss new editor draft - diff version
14:12:26 [shadi]
regrets: Vivienne, Alistair
14:12:43 [ericvelleman]
14:13:04 [Detlev]
Eric: any comments to poposed resolutions?
14:13:10 [Kathy]
the link for the diff version is not working
14:13:28 [ericvelleman]
14:13:48 [Detlev]
Eric: disposition of comments has also been updated
14:14:57 [Detlev]
Detlev: it is a bit overwhelming...
14:15:31 [Sarah_Swierenga]
the links in the irc aren't working
14:15:46 [Detlev]
remove the last bracket...
14:16:06 [Detlev]
ack me
14:17:52 [Detlev]
Detlev: proposes to go through issues raised by WG
14:18:23 [Detlev]
Shadi: true that a lot of things have happened, may changes, hard to follow...
14:19:05 [Zakim]
14:19:06 [Detlev]
Shadi: Eric's Email summarises the WCAG WG comments
14:19:07 [shadi]
14:19:12 [Zakim]
14:19:36 [korn]
Zakim, Oracle has Peter_Korn
14:19:36 [Zakim]
+Peter_Korn; got it
14:19:55 [Detlev]
Detlev: spend a minute to go through meail?
14:19:58 [Detlev]
Eric: OK
14:20:44 [Detlev]
(Eric has IRC problems)
14:21:13 [richard]
richard has joined #eval
14:21:24 [Sarah_Swierenga]
+1 for comment 1
14:21:25 [Detlev]
1. issues: change "extends" to "complements" (the existing guidance from WCAG 2.0)
14:21:25 [shadi]
[[It extends the existing guidance for WCAG 2.0 but it does not define additional WCAG 2.0 requirements nor does it replace or supersede it in any way.]] -> [[It complements ...]]
14:21:26 [korn]
+1 to their text.
14:21:37 [Detlev]
Eric: any problems?
14:21:42 [kerstin]
no problem with "complements"
14:21:45 [Detlev]
No objection
14:21:47 [korn]
+1 to their comment #2
14:22:16 [Sarah_Swierenga]
+1 to comment 2
14:22:18 [Zakim]
14:22:33 [Detlev]
Eric: 3. issue add random sampling aproach - would take long, for now a temporary solution
14:22:46 [Detlev]
Eric: then open an issue for discussing sampling again
14:22:47 [richard]
?? p41 is richard
14:22:58 [shadi]
zakim, ??p41 is richard
14:22:58 [Zakim]
+richard; got it
14:23:53 [Sarah_Swierenga]
+1 to proposed resolution to comment 2
14:23:56 [Detlev]
Shadi: several people agree with WCAG WG comments
14:24:20 [Detlev]
Shadi: is there also agreement for the resolution to open an issue?
14:24:23 [kerstin]
I'm ok with this interim "solution" about random sampling
14:24:23 [Kathy]
14:24:28 [Detlev]
Shadi: or disaagreement ?
14:24:29 [Mike_]
14:24:30 [Detlev]
14:24:33 [richard]
14:24:38 [Liz]
14:25:05 [Detlev]
Shadi: temporary solution (review note and new issue to be discussed) is approved
14:25:26 [ericvelleman]
ericvelleman has joined #eval
14:25:34 [kerstin]
wb eric
14:25:54 [korn]
+1 to comment #3
14:26:18 [Detlev]
Issue 3: remove 'primary' from discussion of 'primary functionality
14:26:38 [Detlev]
Eric: WG thinks primary may be misleading, too narrow
14:26:54 [Sarah_Swierenga]
+1 to proposed solution to comment 3
14:27:05 [Detlev]
Eric: will take time to come up with alternative - dtherefore delay until after publication
14:27:25 [Detlev]
Eric: Note will indicate that search is out for a better term
14:27:53 [shadi]
14:27:58 [kerstin]
I'm ok with the proposed solution to #3
14:28:06 [Detlev]
Eric: gap makes draft a bit ugly but indicates need to fin a term. Agrrwe evereyone?
14:28:08 [Detlev]
14:28:15 [Kathy]
14:28:52 [Detlev]
Eric: issue 4, Shadi please summarize
14:29:06 [shadi]
14:29:27 [Detlev]
Shadi: its in the latest email (about nature of 'sufficient techniqes'
14:30:02 [Detlev]
Shadi: There is a difference between 'Understanding WCAG 2.0' and our use in WCAG-EM
14:30:16 [Detlev]
Shadi: Evaluation is not addressed as well as possible
14:30:18 [shadi]
14:31:07 [Detlev]
Shadi: This section <link> describes it - evaluation not addressed - there is a plan to update WCAG supporting documents
14:32:04 [Detlev]
Shadi: There is a latest draft to discuss rewording to remove concerns over the understanding of the role of WCAG Techniques
14:32:35 [Detlev]
Shadi: will join the discussiobn with WCAG WG tonight
14:32:36 [MoeKraft]
MoeKraft has joined #eval
14:32:47 [MoeKraft]
*good morning everyone, sorry so late
14:32:59 [Detlev]
Shadi: other people are welcome to attend the telecon
14:33:05 [ericvelleman]
14:33:33 [Detlev]
Richard: Shadi can you send the details for the meeting (tonight)?
14:33:33 [shadi]
14:33:57 [Zakim]
14:34:11 [Detlev]
Richard: it's the one that Loretta runs
14:34:35 [Detlev]
Thursdays 22:00-23:30 CET
14:35:03 [Detlev]
14:35:18 [Detlev]
ack me
14:35:39 [MoeKraft]
*Meeting Information Time: 20:00 UTC, 6 AM Eastern Australia, 10 PM Central Europe, 4 PM Eastern US World Clock: <> Length: up to 90 minutes Bridge: +1.617.761.6200 (US), + (France), +44.203.318.0479(UK) Passcode: 9224# IRC: port: 6665 channel #wai-wcag 1. Conformance Evaluation Methodology Draft for 06 Sep 2012     Survey:
14:36:03 [MoeKraft]
14:36:17 [shadi]
14:36:29 [shadi]
ack me
14:36:49 [Detlev]
Detlev: could not quite understand why they put down the techniques so much
14:37:38 [Detlev]
Shadi: agrees - they will discuss to rename "WCAG WG defined sufficient techniques"
14:37:59 [Detlev]
14:39:36 [shadi]
[[working group has identified sufficient techniques for each Success Criterion that are sufficient to meet that Success Criterion]]
14:40:00 [Detlev]
Detlev (expresses view on sufficient techniques)
14:40:41 [Detlev]
Shadi: we should provide input
14:41:18 [Detlev]
Eric: next issue: define context of website use
14:41:45 [Detlev]
Eric: (That's issue 5 in mail)
14:41:46 [shadi]
14:41:52 [Detlev]
Eric: any objection?
14:41:55 [Detlev]
14:41:58 [richard]
I agree with change +1
14:41:59 [korn]
+1 to change
14:42:08 [Liz]
14:42:20 [Sarah_Swierenga]
+1 to change
14:42:20 [kerstin]
14:42:21 [Tim]
14:42:43 [shadi]
14:42:48 [Detlev]
Eric: Only open comment is 4b
14:43:22 [Detlev]
14:43:28 [korn]
14:44:17 [shadi]
Detlev: "use technique" -> "refer to technique"
14:44:21 [shadi]
14:45:18 [korn]
14:45:21 [Detlev]
Detlev: I think that "refer to" WCAG Techniques rather than "use applicable WCAG Technuiques"
14:45:28 [richard]
14:46:09 [Detlev]
Eric: agreement?
14:47:07 [Detlev]
Peter: would use 'recode' instead of 'refer'
14:47:16 [shadi]
14:47:32 [Detlev]
sorry; 'record', not recode
14:48:40 [Detlev]
quote from Shadi's latest draft: Where possible, use documented WCAG 2.0 techniques and failures to help assess successes and failures in meeting the WCAG 2.0 Success Criteria
14:49:09 [Detlev]
Detlev:"use documented ... to help assess" much better
14:49:24 [korn]
...However, during evaluation such an initial set may often need to be refined according to the particular situation, such as for evaluating particular web technologies and accessibility features THAT ARE IDENTIFIED ON THE WEBSITE being evaluated...
14:49:27 [Detlev]
Eric: can everyone have a look?
14:49:33 [korn]
I wonder if there is another place they might be identified?
14:49:41 [richard]
It is the use of the word "USE" that causes me confusion. The evaluator does not use the technique, he identfies the use of the technique
14:49:48 [korn]
E.g. in communication from the website owner to the evaluator
14:50:49 [shadi]
14:51:24 [ericvelleman]
14:51:29 [Detlev]
Peter: The initial sets of resources are hwere... but another set might be somewhere else..
14:52:06 [Detlev]
Shadi: not clear...
14:52:31 [Detlev]
Peter: Wants to withdraw his comment reconsiders
14:53:04 [korn]
14:53:05 [korn]
14:53:05 [Detlev]
14:53:57 [Detlev]
Richard 4b Using techniques - not the techniques to do the job, but identification to tick off a technique that matches a WCAG technique, no further testing needed
14:54:37 [Detlev]
Section should say that ticking off technique would be an easy way to chweck for comliance
14:55:04 [Detlev]
Shadi: That causes the discomfort at the WCAG working group
14:56:01 [Detlev]
Shadi: In some contexts, that ticking off can be done, in other contexts (intranet) that may not be as easy
14:56:05 [ericvelleman]
14:56:32 [Detlev]
Shadi: Evaluator is responsible to make sure the SC are met - independent of techniques used
14:56:48 [Detlev]
Shadi: WCAG WG feels strongly about that
14:57:58 [Detlev]
Richard: Regarding exotic elements could be defined in the step on defining the scope (optional) - other options for more extensive testing are possible
14:58:12 [Detlev]
Shadi: agrees and would like a stronger role of the WCAG techniques
14:58:40 [Detlev]
Shadi: no progress in the next few weeks possible - can that be postpüoned to afteer puib?
14:58:44 [Detlev]
Richard: fine
14:58:54 [shadi]
q- richard
14:59:19 [Detlev]
Peter: wondering if in addition to WCAG WG this should also be brough to the EVAL tools WG for extra comments?
14:59:27 [Detlev]
Shadi: Good point
15:00:10 [Detlev]
Shadi: In the review period the ERT WG will look closely at our draft
15:01:03 [Detlev]
Eric: Open issue is 4b now, hopes tzo come to conclusion with WCAG WG tonight, will update draft and post for comments
15:01:24 [Detlev]
Eric: comment on mailing list from Sailesh
15:01:34 [shadi]
15:01:46 [Detlev]
Eric: wants to reply and thank him
15:02:14 [korn]
+1 to putting him first in queue from public review
15:02:16 [kerstin]
15:02:20 [MoeKraft]
15:02:23 [Liz]
15:02:29 [Detlev]
Eric: proposed to move comment into disposition of comments
15:02:29 [Kathy]
15:02:32 [Detlev]
15:03:00 [Detlev]
Shadi: this is a public comment
15:03:09 [Detlev]
Eric: agenda finished
15:03:25 [Detlev]
Eric: will update TF on outcome. ANy other issues?
15:03:34 [Zakim]
15:04:11 [Detlev]
Shadi: Can we get commitment to check mail tomorrow to agree/object with any remaining changes that might be proposed tonight?
15:04:27 [Detlev]
Shadi: Then we can publish early next week
15:04:41 [Liz]
15:04:47 [Detlev]
Shadi: Please reply wioth yes or no to changes
15:04:50 [Detlev]
will do
15:04:52 [ericvelleman]
15:05:12 [MoeKraft]
15:05:30 [kerstin]
15:05:33 [Zakim]
15:05:33 [Detlev]
Eric: thanks all, hopes to tie loose ends for next pb working draft
15:05:34 [Zakim]
15:05:35 [Zakim]
15:05:35 [Zakim]
15:05:36 [Detlev]
15:05:36 [Zakim]
15:05:37 [richard]
15:05:38 [Zakim]
15:05:40 [Zakim]
15:05:42 [Sarah_Swierenga]
15:05:46 [Zakim]
15:05:49 [Zakim]
15:05:51 [Zakim]
15:05:52 [Zakim]
WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has ended
15:05:53 [shadi]
trackbot, end meeting
15:05:53 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
15:05:56 [Zakim]
Attendees were Detlev, Liz, Kathy, Eric, +1.517.353.aaaa, shadi, +1.510.334.aabb, peter, richard, Mike_, kerstin, +1.517.432.aacc, Sarah_Swierenga, Peter_Korn, MoeKraft
15:05:59 [Zakim]
sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
15:06:01 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:06:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate trackbot
15:06:02 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
15:06:02 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items