IRC log of xproc on 2012-09-06

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:52:45 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/09/06-xproc-irc
13:52:53 [Norm]
rrsagent, set logs world-visible
13:52:53 [Norm]
Meeting: XML Processing Model WG
13:52:53 [Norm]
Date: 6 Sep 2012
13:52:53 [Norm]
Agenda: http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/08/30-agenda
13:52:53 [Norm]
Meeting: 219
13:52:54 [Norm]
Chair: Norm
13:52:57 [Norm]
Scribe: Norm
13:52:58 [Norm]
ScribeNick: Norm
13:53:02 [Norm]
zakim, this will be xproc
13:53:02 [Zakim]
ok, Norm; I see XML_PMWG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
13:54:21 [MoZ]
Zakim, code ?
13:54:21 [Zakim]
the conference code is 97762 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), MoZ
13:55:14 [Zakim]
XML_PMWG()10:00AM has now started
13:55:22 [Zakim]
+ +33.9.52.47.aaaa
13:55:29 [MoZ]
Zakim, aaaa is me
13:55:29 [Zakim]
+MoZ; got it
13:56:40 [jfuller]
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13:58:35 [Zakim]
MoZ, you asked to be pinged at this time
13:59:43 [Norm]
zakim, passcode?
13:59:43 [Zakim]
the conference code is 97762 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Norm
13:59:52 [Zakim]
+Norm
14:00:01 [Norm]
zakim,who's here?
14:00:01 [Zakim]
On the phone I see MoZ, Norm
14:00:02 [Zakim]
On IRC I see jfuller, RRSAgent, ht, Zakim, MoZ, Norm, Liam
14:01:27 [Zakim]
+ +1.805.560.aabb
14:01:34 [Norm]
zakim, aabb is Cornelia
14:01:38 [Zakim]
+Cornelia; got it
14:02:24 [Norm]
zakim, who's making noise?
14:02:40 [Zakim]
Norm, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
14:02:43 [Norm]
zakim, who's making noise?
14:03:12 [alexmilowski]
alexmilowski has joined #xproc
14:03:17 [Zakim]
Norm, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: MoZ (40%), Norm (53%), Cornelia (9%)
14:03:52 [cornelia_]
cornelia_ has joined #xproc
14:04:06 [Norm]
zakim, cornelia_ is Cornelia
14:04:10 [Zakim]
-MoZ
14:04:10 [Norm]
zakim, who's here?
14:04:32 [Zakim]
+ +420.6.026.9.aacc
14:05:02 [MoZ]
Zakim, aacc is alexmilowski
14:05:09 [Zakim]
sorry, Norm, I do not recognize a party named 'cornelia_'
14:05:14 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Norm, Cornelia, +420.6.026.9.aacc
14:05:24 [Zakim]
+MoZ
14:05:29 [Norm]
zakim, alexmilowski is jfuller
14:05:32 [Zakim]
+Alex_Milows
14:05:44 [Norm]
zakim, who's here?
14:06:17 [Zakim]
+alexmilowski; got it
14:06:25 [Norm]
Present: Norm, Alex, Jim, Mohamed, Cornelia, Murray
14:06:29 [jfuller]
i'm here
14:06:32 [Zakim]
On IRC I see cornelia_, alexmilowski, jfuller, RRSAgent, ht, Zakim, MoZ, Norm, Liam
14:06:38 [Norm]
Topic: Accept this agenda?
14:06:38 [Norm]
-> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/09/06-agenda
14:06:41 [Zakim]
+jfuller; got it
14:06:43 [Norm]
Accepted.
14:06:48 [Norm]
Topic: Accept minutes from the previous meeting?
14:06:48 [Norm]
-> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/08/30-minutes
14:07:04 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Norm, Cornelia, jfuller, MoZ, Alex_Milows
14:07:15 [Norm]
Accepted.
14:07:25 [Norm]
Present: Norm, Alex, Jim, Mohamed, Cornelia
14:07:30 [Norm]
Topic: Next meeting: telcon, 13, 20, 27 Sep? 4 Oct?
14:07:58 [Zakim]
On IRC I see cornelia_, alexmilowski, jfuller, RRSAgent, ht, Zakim, MoZ, Norm, Liam
14:08:29 [jfuller]
I can be there on all thurs
14:09:00 [Norm]
Norm gives regrets for 13, 20, and 27 September.
14:09:06 [Norm]
Cornelia gives regrets for 13 September.
14:09:13 [Norm]
Next meeting: 13 September, Alex to chair.
14:10:05 [Norm]
Topic: Use cases and requirements
14:10:06 [jfuller]
zakim mute me
14:10:06 [Norm]
zakim, help
14:10:06 [Zakim]
Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot for more detailed help.
14:10:08 [Zakim]
Some of the commands I know are:
14:10:08 [Zakim]
xxx is yyy - establish yyy as the name of unknown party xxx
14:10:08 [Zakim]
if yyy is 'me' or 'I', your nick is substituted
14:10:08 [Zakim]
xxx may be yyy - establish yyy as possibly the name of unknown party xxx
14:10:08 [Zakim]
I am xxx - establish your nick as the name of unknown party xxx
14:10:10 [Zakim]
xxx holds yyy [, zzz ...] - establish xxx as a group name and yyy, etc. as participants within that group
14:10:13 [Zakim]
xxx also holds yyy - add yyy to the list of participants in group xxx
14:10:16 [Zakim]
who's here? - lists the participants on the phone
14:10:17 [Zakim]
who's muted? - lists the participants who are muted
14:10:19 [Zakim]
mute xxx - mutes party xxx (like pressing 61#)
14:10:21 [Zakim]
unmute xxx - reverses the effect of "mute" and of 61#
14:10:23 [Zakim]
is xxx here? - reports whether a party named like xxx is present
14:10:25 [Zakim]
list conferences - reports the active conferences
14:10:25 [jfuller]
mute me
14:10:28 [Zakim]
this is xxx - associates this channel with conference xxx
14:10:30 [Zakim]
excuse us - disconnects from the irc channel
14:10:32 [Zakim]
I last learned something new on $Date: 2012/02/01 21:15:02 $
14:10:33 [Norm]
-> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/docs/langreq-v2.html
14:10:49 [Norm]
Regrets: Vojtech
14:11:08 [jfuller]
do we have a latest url ?
14:11:37 [Norm]
Alex: We have a very large document, with lots of stuff we can do. Now that we've been sitting on it for a while, have we really settled on a strategy and what the next version should be?
14:11:43 [jfuller]
zakim, mute me
14:11:43 [Zakim]
jfuller was already muted, jfuller
14:11:52 [Norm]
jfuller, http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/docs/langreq-v2.html
14:11:56 [jfuller]
zakim, unmute me
14:11:56 [Zakim]
jfuller should no longer be muted
14:12:16 [Norm]
Alex: There are a lot of things we could do, but what's our strategic goal? How do we make it easier to use?
14:12:44 [Norm]
...It includes simplifying things like parameters but also includes an inventory of steps.
14:12:58 [Norm]
...We could go off the deep end on steps.
14:13:05 [jfuller]
zakim, mute me
14:13:05 [Zakim]
jfuller should now be muted
14:13:19 [Norm]
Alex: One strategy would be to pick a handful of items.
14:13:32 [cornelia_]
zakim, mute me
14:13:32 [Zakim]
sorry, cornelia_, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
14:13:38 [Norm]
zakim, who's here?
14:13:38 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Norm, Cornelia, jfuller (muted), MoZ, Alex_Milows
14:13:39 [Zakim]
On IRC I see cornelia_, alexmilowski, jfuller, RRSAgent, ht, Zakim, MoZ, Norm, Liam
14:13:44 [Norm]
zakim, Cornelia is cornelia_
14:13:44 [Zakim]
+cornelia_; got it
14:13:45 [jfuller]
zakim, unmute me
14:13:45 [Zakim]
jfuller should no longer be muted
14:13:54 [Norm]
zakim, mute cornelia_
14:13:54 [Zakim]
cornelia_ should now be muted
14:14:12 [Norm]
Jim: I thought we had agreement on a strategy that was more limited.
14:14:13 [cornelia_]
fun - thx
14:14:36 [Norm]
Alex: But can we be more specific.
14:14:56 [Norm]
Norm: I'll put a stake in the ground, fix parameters and allow non-xml documents to flow through the pipeline.
14:15:20 [Norm]
...I think that's the bare minimum, plausible easier to use story.
14:15:24 [jfuller]
zakim, mute me
14:15:24 [Zakim]
jfuller should now be muted
14:15:33 [cornelia_]
zakin, unmute me
14:15:36 [Norm]
Norm: I think the inventory of steps is a red herring, we can do that in notes
14:15:50 [cornelia_]
zakim, unmute me
14:15:51 [Zakim]
cornelia_ should no longer be muted
14:16:18 [Norm]
Alex: I think it would be nice to look at what we have and see if there are any obvious bits we need to address.
14:17:04 [Norm]
Cornelia: I have a question too, what about a compact syntax
14:17:12 [jfuller]
zakim, unmute me
14:17:12 [Zakim]
jfuller should no longer be muted
14:17:45 [Norm]
Norm: I have two of those. That was the subject of my Balisage paper.
14:17:53 [Norm]
Alex: I feel that way sometimes too.
14:18:02 [Norm]
Jim: Is that a note or part of a V2?
14:18:11 [Norm]
Alex: I don't know.
14:18:13 [Norm]
Norm: I don't know either.
14:18:39 [Norm]
Jim: Programming in a markup language always requires a certain mindset that leaves some programmers behind.
14:18:55 [Norm]
-> http://www.balisage.net/Proceedings/vol8/html/Walsh01/BalisageVol8-Walsh01.html
14:19:14 [Norm]
Jim: A compact syntax might broaden adoption.
14:20:02 [Norm]
Cornelia: One of the barriers is that uptake hasn't been that big.
14:20:48 [Norm]
...Anything we can do to help would be a good idea.
14:20:54 [cornelia_]
zakim, mute me
14:20:54 [Zakim]
cornelia_ should now be muted
14:21:06 [Norm]
Jim: I think it's early days for XProc. I think there's more use of it than we think.
14:21:20 [Norm]
Norm: Yes, it turned up a bunch of times at Balisage, very heartwarming :-)
14:21:45 [cornelia_]
zakim, unmute me
14:21:47 [Zakim]
cornelia_ should no longer be muted
14:22:02 [Norm]
Cornelia: I agree. The non-XML thing is a higher priority than a compact syntax.
14:22:11 [Norm]
...I think compact syntax is still on the short list then.
14:22:22 [jfuller]
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14:23:11 [jfuller]
http://depx.org/
14:23:37 [Norm]
Jim: I did an experiment with dependency management; it's broader than just XProc, it includes XQuery, XSLT, etc.
14:23:47 [Norm]
...It's on github, so you can contribute your owns teps.
14:23:53 [Norm]
s/owns teps/own steps/
14:24:05 [Norm]
...We could slice this to be explicitly for XProc.
14:24:32 [Norm]
...What depx is is a client, written in XProc, that provides a library of steps for interacting with the depx repository.
14:24:41 [Norm]
...Do we want to say anything about the automatic loading of steps?
14:24:44 [MoZ]
q+
14:24:57 [Norm]
...If you want to use a step, you have to explictly define it and such. Do we want any sort of automatic dependency injection mechanism.
14:25:13 [Norm]
Norm: Do you mean automatically inject the decl or the impl?
14:25:17 [Norm]
Jim: The declaration.
14:25:31 [Norm]
Norm: Uh. I'm not sure that has a whole lot of appeal, but I'll think about it.
14:25:51 [Norm]
Jim: I'm trying to shorten the chain: I see a step on depx I want to use, I push a button, and it works.
14:27:18 [MoZ]
q-
14:27:49 [Norm]
Norm: I think that could be confusing. We decided to require the declarations for interoperability.
14:28:01 [Norm]
Cornelia: What would be required of the XProc standard?
14:28:06 [Norm]
Jim: Maybe nothing.
14:28:36 [Norm]
Norm: We'd have to change the standard to say that we could use steps that aren't explicitly declared in scope.
14:29:51 [Norm]
Norm: I could be persuaded to allow "magic" declarations.
14:30:13 [Norm]
Alex: The XQuery folks allow all sorts of implementation-defined stuff.
14:30:56 [Norm]
...And having a declaration doesn't actually require the implementations to do the same thing.
14:31:08 [Norm]
Norm: Let's see if we can take some concrete steps.
14:31:17 [Norm]
...Parameters: I'm on the hook for a concrete proposal.
14:32:24 [Norm]
...Non-XML documents: Cornelia will ask Vojtech to submit a proposal
14:32:36 [Norm]
...Compact syntax: Look at my Balisage paper :-)
14:33:58 [Norm]
...Implicit declarations: Jim, send something to the list.
14:34:22 [Norm]
...New steps: propose them in groups for notes
14:35:31 [Norm]
Norm: If we can drive these to concrete proposals by mid-October, then maybe we can declare victory.
14:36:07 [Norm]
Some discussion of TPAC in Lyon.
14:36:43 [Norm]
Norm: If we can get proposals by mid-October, maybe we can wrestle the details to the ground at the f2f and come out with apublication plan.
14:37:44 [Norm]
Alex: We have a bunch of outstanding action items, what's the strategy for the next few weeks.
14:39:37 [Norm]
Norm: Do what you can. :-)
14:41:12 [Norm]
Norm: I'll be online in two weeks if I can.
14:41:21 [Norm]
Jim: Alex, I might have a first draft of the zip/unzip thing.
14:41:27 [Norm]
...Where is the language v2 requirements and use cases.
14:41:40 [Norm]
...Are we going to publish that?
14:41:49 [Norm]
Alex: We have one, but I don't think it's ready to publish.
14:42:37 [Norm]
Norm: If we've reached a strategic decision, then we can update the document to reflect that and move some of the other material off into separate reference documents.
14:43:43 [Norm]
Norm: But we need Murray, Henry, and Vojtech to consider our planning of today.
14:43:56 [Norm]
Alex: I'd like a more concise statement of our strategy.
14:44:37 [Norm]
Norm: I can do that.
14:44:44 [Norm]
Jim: I'm a little bit concerned about the title of the document.
14:44:57 [Norm]
...In my mind, I'm thinking of this document as a V2 of the original requirements document.
14:45:12 [Norm]
...It's a tool to use to create the new set of requirements.
14:46:04 [Norm]
Jim: One more comment, in the v2 document as it is now, how do people feel about the requirements that aren't satisfied.
14:46:36 [Norm]
Alex: Off the top of my head, we didn't do things like digital signatures. I think on the other hand we did meet a lot of our requirements.
14:46:45 [Norm]
...Some of them require custom steps.
14:48:15 [Norm]
Norm: It would be useful to categorize the ones we didn't satisfy as really unsatisfied (digital signatures) or actually satisfied but requires some custom step or web service that could easily exist but doesn't.
14:48:37 [Norm]
ACTION: Alex to categorize the unmet use cases as really unmet or met with external dependencies.
14:48:46 [Norm]
Topic: Any other business?
14:48:53 [Norm]
None heard.
14:49:05 [Norm]
Adjourned.
14:49:09 [Norm]
rrsagent, set logs world-visible
14:49:10 [Zakim]
-Alex_Milows
14:49:11 [Zakim]
-jfuller
14:49:12 [Zakim]
-MoZ
14:49:12 [Norm]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:49:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/06-xproc-minutes.html Norm
14:49:13 [Zakim]
-cornelia_
14:49:17 [Zakim]
-Norm
14:49:19 [Zakim]
XML_PMWG()10:00AM has ended
14:49:19 [Zakim]
Attendees were +33.9.52.47.aaaa, MoZ, Norm, +1.805.560.aabb, +420.6.026.9.aacc, Alex_Milows, jfuller, cornelia_
14:49:34 [jfuller]
Anyone, if you want to discuss depx.org with me
14:49:40 [jfuller]
and the idea of getting steps into the repo
14:49:42 [jfuller]
give me a shout
14:49:48 [jfuller]
offlist
14:49:53 [cornelia_]
cornelia_ has left #xproc
14:50:03 [Norm]
I think the challenge will be getting consensus to change the spec
14:50:08 [Norm]
it's a simple matter of implementation after that :-)
15:28:59 [alexmilowski]
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