See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 06 September 2012
<scribe> scribe: jallan
open item 1
reviewing conformance strawman http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012JulSep/0059.html
js: want to add more to platform examples and platform applications
jr: why is mobile different from desktop
kp: keyboard is different
jr: not so much, complicated is
browser in a browser on an OS
... in ATAG partial conformance - why something is impossible because of platform a11y issues.
... eg. we don't meet keyboard because device X has no keyboard
kf: issue not related to us, but
people want mobile to be different, want guideline for
... second challenge: defining what is a UA...the American Airlines app. - how much of UAAG does an app have to conform?
... apps that help with usability of other applications. are these UAs?
jr: a user experience mediated by
platform and browser
... they have been broken up in the past. and a shared responsibility. but boundaries have blurred a11y is more distributed
kf: don't expect every app to
provide mouseless browsing interface. should be getting that
from the platform.
... should be able to say this is what I comply with, all the other parts should come from the platform or something else.
jr: concept of ATAG friendly. this is what I do...and I don't break other plugins, extensions, browser functions, external applications. If I do, then I must replace that function.
kf: new apps in windows 8 that live on the desktop.
kp: +1 to if you don't provide
it, don't break it.
... developers not good with standard keyboard shortcuts., what are standards? what are best practices?
... want to make things easy. making it easy is hard. making shortcuts discoverable
... so what do I do.
jr: what we have is a highlevel
of user requirements necessary to make the user experience
... how do you implement keyboard a11y?
... how do you not break somebody elses keyboard a11y?
kp: need to make it flexibile and forgiving,
gl: issues - what is UA, what is scope of responsibility, division of labor with OS and UA wrt a11y
<Jan> re: ATAG 2.0 Conforming vs. Compatible (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-au/2010JulSep/0089.html)
gl: things that are less than a
full UA (apps)
... where to developers get guidance.
kp: in terms of developer and flexibility that go in the a11y bin and the future bin (anticipating users needs)
gl: need to add cell app as a use
case for validating an SC, along with UA on desktop, media
player, audio only, keyboard only
... see minutes from last week (summary) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012JulSep/0058.html
... make sure the SC makes sense across these usecases.
... if the cell app breaks too many (number to be determined) then perhaps the app is not a UA
... do we have a current position on app as UA.
js: in the implementing document
... see what qualifies as a UA. web application
gl: is the airline app a UA? it interprets w3 technology.
jr: problem with legislation, if law says everything that uses w3 tech, must provide full UA capabilities.
ja: share discussion with Rich S., saying they are single purpose services with a simple interface, and should be written so platform a11y tools can render the info.
gl: where is the dividing line between service and full UA
jr: the app hands off the a11y to platform or other tool. it doesn't provide a source or outline view. the best way to provide info is the itinerary view.
kp: what about apps interacting.
jr: right...app doesn't provide mouseless browsing but I don't break others mouseless browsing apps interacting with me
<Jan> JR: Example of copy...some apps support it natively, some break it...but others just play nice with the platform's copy functionality.
<Jan> JR: Boils down to maybe SC's are met: yes, no, NA and another option "is compatible with some other service or platform doing it"
kp: is functionality is native to OS then its covered, if its not, then we need some kind of test.
jr: speech SC. if someone else
provides it,, then you are done. if you provide speech then you
must meet the speech SC
... let developers choose what parts of UAAG they will comply with depending on things you do, and don't break platform a11y, or other extensions.
gl: so they wouldn't have to say anything about mouseless browsing, or do they have to test and say they have tested with some mouseless browsing extension.
jr: which one?
gl: in conformance claim...would have to be specific.
jr: system integrator could use
all extensions to make sure it all works.
... would be nice if extension maker could claim conformance to small part of UAAG, and ensure they don't break anything else
kp: speech example say down 3 does down arrow and #3, but down 3 in another system does 3 down arrows
problems with extensions interacting, how to check non-interference.
js: concerned about partial conformance. want major browsers to conform with all of UAAG. want incentive for conformance
kp: how to draw line between partial or full conformance.
jr: full function browser.
gl: full compliance with A and
x,y,z of AA.
... want a mechanism for purchasers and policy folks to make decisions. location of conformance claim needs to be available to the public.
... provide guidance to developers to do the right thing.
kp: any test for partial conformance.
gl: is there any level for minimal conformace
ja: could we have conformance for extensions? separate from full UA
kp: can we say, what do you
have...this looks like a full browoser...then must comply with
... this is an app and you must comply with ____
... extension compliance would be useful for users to decide which extension to use.
gl: take UAAG ctegories of what is a UA, and delineate which SC apply to which type of UA.
js: new technologies seem to blur the categories.
<KimPatch> platform-based are full. Extensions or web-based have a choice to be full or partial -- does that work
kp: the blurry one is the webbased brwosers
gl: somethings can be both. e.g. Firebug, is an extension, but a huge UI, should be a full UA
kp: this makes big browsers full compliance.
jr: platform based or full. the app is platform based. has a webview, but is stand alone on the platform.
gl: what is handled by platform services to handled
kp: where does the airline app not comply?
jr: they could fail WCAG as webcontent.
kf: people writing apps don't want to read wcag because they are not writing conent.
jr: need a WAI document - a11y
guidelines for webapps, smartphone apps, etc.
... should be partial conformance
... weight of conformance comes from gonvernments and policy folks
kp: NA vs not doing it...are two
different things. airline app has no captions, because no
... need distinction between we don't do this and we can't do this
gl: amount of code in major browser is huge. there may be places they can't comply because code is old an won't be for a time.
rewritten for a long time
jr: what if they have done part of an SC...
kp: isn't that partial compliance
jr: partial compliance...we don't do this, we don't break anybody else do it.
kp: 4 ways of conformance
comply with 3rd party help
4. comply with exceptions, and list them
js: also does not comply
... how to handle, 700 correct and 1 incorrect. do we take conformance away...others are working on it. we should not jump in
kp: useful to have dialog...this complies except for thise things and here is why
gl: this fits will with last
... 2 answers what passes and how
pass/no pass/ pass with exception
<Greg> So for each SC the conformance claim can include:
<Greg> (a) Passes, Does Not Pass, Passes with Exceptions
<Greg> (b) Requirements (e.g. inclusion of an optional extension, platform option enabled, or implemented on user agents that implement a feature)
scribe: in addition to global requirement - not hinder OS a11y features
<Greg> That is in addition to the global configuration requirements listed for the entire conformance claim.
<Greg> (a) Passes, Does Not Pass, Passes with Exceptions listed
gl: each conformance claim covers
exceptions, per platform, by extensions
... with a webbased UA, would specifiy per browser what you pass and don't pass
js: anyone to write a summary of this information
greg regrets for next week
action Kim to integrate gregs summary of last two weeks minutes into UAAG with jeanne
<trackbot> Created ACTION-757 - Integrate gregs summary of last two weeks minutes into UAAG with jeanne [on Kimberly Patch - due 2012-09-13].
leap motion - gesture device
fat iphone - 8 cubic foot space for hand motion, accurate and fast. hooks into touch api
flecksy keyboard for iphone
for blind users
fleksy keyboard - correction
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.136 of Date: 2011/05/12 12:01:43 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Found Scribe: jallan Inferring ScribeNick: JAllan WARNING: No "Topic:" lines found. Default Present: Jeanne, Greg_Lowney, Jim_Allan, Kim_Patch, [Microsoft], Jan Present: Jeanne Greg_Lowney Jim_Allan Kim_Patch [Microsoft] Jan Regrets: mark Found Date: 06 Sep 2012 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2012/09/06-ua-minutes.html People with action items: WARNING: No "Topic: ..." lines found! Resulting HTML may have an empty (invalid) <ol>...</ol>. Explanation: "Topic: ..." lines are used to indicate the start of new discussion topics or agenda items, such as: <dbooth> Topic: Review of Amy's report[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]