IRC log of ua on 2012-09-06

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:22:35 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
16:22:37 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:22:37 [Zakim]
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Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
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ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 38 minutes
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Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:22:40 [trackbot]
Date: 06 September 2012
16:22:46 [JAllan]
rrsagent, set logs public
16:27:48 [JAllan]
Agenda+ Conformance discussion - continued
16:28:08 [JAllan]
Agenda+ Level Discussion: drafting criteria for determining levels
16:32:41 [JAllan]
chair: jimallan, kellyford
17:00:02 [Greg]
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WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
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17:01:54 [Jan]
Jan has joined #ua
17:02:39 [Zakim]
17:02:41 [Jan]
zakim, code?
17:02:41 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200, Jan
17:03:27 [Zakim]
17:04:24 [Zakim]
17:04:45 [Zakim]
17:04:47 [Jan]
zakim, ??P8 is really Jan
17:04:47 [Zakim]
+Jan; got it
17:09:07 [JAllan]
scribe: jallan
17:09:27 [JAllan]
17:09:31 [JAllan]
17:09:38 [JAllan]
open item 1
17:10:52 [jeanne]
17:11:21 [JAllan]
reviewing conformance strawman
17:11:37 [kford]
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17:12:48 [JAllan]
js: want to add more to platform examples and platform applications
17:13:11 [JAllan]
jr: why is mobile different from desktop
17:13:19 [JAllan]
kp: keyboard is different
17:13:41 [JAllan]
jr: not so much, complicated is browser in a browser on an OS
17:14:21 [JAllan]
... in ATAG partial conformance - why something is impossible because of platform a11y issues.
17:14:46 [JAllan]
... eg. we don't meet keyboard because device X has no keyboard
17:15:36 [JAllan]
kf: issue not related to us, but people want mobile to be different, want guideline for mobile
17:16:40 [JAllan]
kf: second challenge: defining what is a UA...the American Airlines app. - how much of UAAG does an app have to conform?
17:17:17 [JAllan]
... apps that help with usability of other applications. are these UAs?
17:17:41 [JAllan]
jr: a user experience mediated by platform and browser
17:17:52 [kford]
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17:18:46 [JAllan]
... they have been broken up in the past. and a shared responsibility. but boundaries have blurred a11y is more distributed
17:19:25 [JAllan]
kf: don't expect every app to provide mouseless browsing interface. should be getting that from the platform.
17:19:57 [JAllan]
... should be able to say this is what I comply with, all the other parts should come from the platform or something else.
17:21:05 [JAllan]
jr: concept of ATAG friendly. this is what I do...and I don't break other plugins, extensions, browser functions, external applications. If I do, then I must replace that function.
17:21:30 [JAllan]
kf: new apps in windows 8 that live on the desktop.
17:21:58 [JAllan]
kp: +1 to if you don't provide it, don't break it.
17:22:30 [JAllan]
... developers not good with standard keyboard shortcuts., what are standards? what are best practices?
17:23:12 [JAllan]
... want to make things easy. making it easy is hard. making shortcuts discoverable
17:23:21 [JAllan]
... so what do I do.
17:23:54 [JAllan]
jr: what we have is a highlevel of user requirements necessary to make the user experience accessible.
17:24:07 [JAllan]
... how do you implement keyboard a11y?
17:24:26 [JAllan]
... how do you not break somebody elses keyboard a11y?
17:24:47 [JAllan]
kp: need to make it flexibile and forgiving,
17:25:38 [JAllan]
gl: issues - what is UA, what is scope of responsibility, division of labor with OS and UA wrt a11y
17:25:51 [Jan]
re: ATAG 2.0 Conforming vs. Compatible (
17:26:09 [JAllan]
gl: things that are less than a full UA (apps)
17:27:12 [JAllan]
gl: where to developers get guidance.
17:28:02 [JAllan]
kp: in terms of developer and flexibility that go in the a11y bin and the future bin (anticipating users needs)
17:29:06 [JAllan]
gl: need to add cell app as a use case for validating an SC, along with UA on desktop, media player, audio only, keyboard only
17:29:42 [JAllan]
... see minutes from last week (summary)
17:30:18 [JAllan]
gl: make sure the SC makes sense across these usecases.
17:30:50 [JAllan]
... if the cell app breaks too many (number to be determined) then perhaps the app is not a UA
17:31:17 [JAllan]
gl: do we have a current position on app as UA.
17:31:35 [jeanne]
17:31:48 [JAllan]
js: in the implementing document
17:32:24 [JAllan]
... see what qualifies as a UA. web application
17:34:18 [JAllan]
gl: is the airline app a UA? it interprets w3 technology.
17:35:21 [JAllan]
jr: problem with legislation, if law says everything that uses w3 tech, must provide full UA capabilities.
17:37:42 [JAllan]
ja: share discussion with Rich S., saying they are single purpose services with a simple interface, and should be written so platform a11y tools can render the info.
17:38:08 [JAllan]
gl: where is the dividing line between service and full UA
17:39:18 [JAllan]
jr: the app hands off the a11y to platform or other tool. it doesn't provide a source or outline view. the best way to provide info is the itinerary view.
17:39:31 [JAllan]
kp: what about apps interacting.
17:40:45 [JAllan]
jr: doesn't provide mouseless browsing but I don't break others mouseless browsing apps interacting with me
17:40:54 [Jan]
JR: Example of copy...some apps support it natively, some break it...but others just play nice with the platform's copy functionality.
17:41:32 [Jan]
JR: Boils down to maybe SC's are met: yes, no, NA and another option "is compatible with some other service or platform doing it"
17:42:17 [JAllan]
kp: is functionality is native to OS then its covered, if its not, then we need some kind of test.
17:43:00 [JAllan]
jr: speech SC. if someone else provides it,, then you are done. if you provide speech then you must meet the speech SC
17:44:04 [JAllan]
jr: let developers choose what parts of UAAG they will comply with depending on things you do, and don't break platform a11y, or other extensions.
17:45:09 [JAllan]
gl: so they wouldn't have to say anything about mouseless browsing, or do they have to test and say they have tested with some mouseless browsing extension.
17:45:13 [JAllan]
jr: which one?
17:45:34 [JAllan]
gl: in conformance claim...would have to be specific.
17:46:07 [JAllan]
jr: system integrator could use all extensions to make sure it all works.
17:46:59 [JAllan]
... would be nice if extension maker could claim conformance to small part of UAAG, and ensure they don't break anything else
17:47:01 [JAllan]
17:48:08 [JAllan]
kp: speech example say down 3 does down arrow and #3, but down 3 in another system does 3 down arrows
17:48:59 [JAllan]
problems with extensions interacting, how to check non-interference.
17:50:02 [JAllan]
js: concerned about partial conformance. want major browsers to conform with all of UAAG. want incentive for conformance
17:50:43 [JAllan]
kp: how to draw line between partial or full conformance.
17:51:00 [JAllan]
jr: full function browser.
17:51:29 [JAllan]
gl: full compliance with A and x,y,z of AA.
17:52:17 [JAllan]
... want a mechanism for purchasers and policy folks to make decisions. location of conformance claim needs to be available to the public.
17:52:37 [JAllan]
... provide guidance to developers to do the right thing.
17:53:07 [JAllan]
kp: any test for partial conformance.
17:53:28 [JAllan]
gl: is there any level for minimal conformace
17:54:01 [JAllan]
ja: could we have conformance for extensions? separate from full UA
17:54:46 [JAllan]
kp: can we say, what do you have...this looks like a full browoser...then must comply with ____
17:55:11 [JAllan]
... this is an app and you must comply with ____
17:57:06 [JAllan]
kp: extension compliance would be useful for users to decide which extension to use.
17:57:41 [JAllan]
gl: take UAAG ctegories of what is a UA, and delineate which SC apply to which type of UA.
17:58:52 [JAllan]
js: new technologies seem to blur the categories.
17:58:52 [KimPatch]
platform-based are full. Extensions or web-based have a choice to be full or partial -- does that work
17:59:29 [JAllan]
kp: the blurry one is the webbased brwosers
18:00:28 [JAllan]
gl: somethings can be both. e.g. Firebug, is an extension, but a huge UI, should be a full UA
18:01:14 [JAllan]
kp: this makes big browsers full compliance.
18:02:13 [JAllan]
jr: platform based or full. the app is platform based. has a webview, but is stand alone on the platform.
18:03:32 [JAllan]
gl: what is handled by platform services to handled
18:04:10 [JAllan]
kp: where does the airline app not comply?
18:05:06 [JAllan]
jr: they could fail WCAG as webcontent.
18:05:41 [JAllan]
kf: people writing apps don't want to read wcag because they are not writing conent.
18:06:16 [JAllan]
jr: need a WAI document - a11y guidelines for webapps, smartphone apps, etc.
18:06:48 [JAllan]
jr: should be partial conformance
18:07:24 [JAllan]
... weight of conformance comes from gonvernments and policy folks
18:08:24 [JAllan]
kp: NA vs not doing it...are two different things. airline app has no captions, because no video
18:09:11 [JAllan]
... need distinction between we don't do this and we can't do this
18:11:58 [JAllan]
gl: amount of code in major browser is huge. there may be places they can't comply because code is old an won't be for a time.
18:12:18 [JAllan]
rewritten for a long time
18:12:49 [JAllan]
jr: what if they have done part of an SC...
18:12:58 [JAllan]
kp: isn't that partial compliance
18:13:50 [JAllan]
jr: partial compliance...we don't do this, we don't break anybody else do it.
18:14:46 [JAllan]
kp: 4 ways of conformance
18:14:58 [JAllan]
1. comply
18:15:02 [JAllan]
2. na
18:15:11 [JAllan]
comply with 3rd party help
18:15:23 [JAllan]
4. comply with exceptions, and list them
18:15:44 [JAllan]
js: also does not comply
18:16:24 [JAllan]
js: how to handle, 700 correct and 1 incorrect. do we take conformance away...others are working on it. we should not jump in
18:17:18 [JAllan]
kp: useful to have dialog...this complies except for thise things and here is why
18:17:37 [JAllan]
gl: this fits will with last weeks discussion.
18:17:54 [JAllan]
... 2 answers what passes and how
18:17:57 [JAllan]
... modigy
18:18:13 [JAllan]
pass/no pass/ pass with exception
18:18:27 [JAllan]
list exceptions
18:18:31 [Greg]
So for each SC the conformance claim can include:
18:18:33 [Greg]
(a) Passes, Does Not Pass, Passes with Exceptions
18:18:34 [Greg]
(b) Requirements (e.g. inclusion of an optional extension, platform option enabled, or implemented on user agents that implement a feature)
18:19:19 [JAllan]
... in addition to global requirement - not hinder OS a11y features
18:19:21 [Greg]
That is in addition to the global configuration requirements listed for the entire conformance claim.
18:19:45 [Greg]
(a) Passes, Does Not Pass, Passes with Exceptions listed
18:21:07 [JAllan]
gl: each conformance claim covers exceptions, per platform, by extensions
18:21:37 [JAllan]
... with a webbased UA, would specifiy per browser what you pass and don't pass
18:22:23 [JAllan]
js: anyone to write a summary of this information
18:23:11 [JAllan]
greg regrets for next week
18:24:03 [JAllan]
action Kim to integrate gregs summary of last two weeks minutes into UAAG with jeanne
18:24:03 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-757 - Integrate gregs summary of last two weeks minutes into UAAG with jeanne [on Kimberly Patch - due 2012-09-13].
18:24:37 [JAllan]
conformance claims
18:25:11 [JAllan]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:25:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate JAllan
18:25:35 [JAllan]
leap motion - gesture device
18:26:29 [JAllan]
fat iphone - 8 cubic foot space for hand motion, accurate and fast. hooks into touch api
18:28:41 [JAllan]
flecksy keyboard for iphone
18:29:38 [JAllan]
for blind users
18:31:50 [JAllan]
fleksy keyboard - correction
18:33:29 [JAllan]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:33:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate JAllan
18:33:54 [JAllan]
zakim, please part
18:33:54 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were Jeanne, Greg_Lowney, Jim_Allan, Kim_Patch, [Microsoft], Jan
18:33:54 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
18:34:00 [JAllan]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:34:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate JAllan
18:34:42 [JAllan]
18:34:51 [JAllan]
18:34:56 [JAllan]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:34:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate JAllan
18:35:13 [JAllan]
regrets: mark
18:35:15 [JAllan]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:35:15 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate JAllan
18:35:40 [JAllan]
rrsagent, please part
18:35:40 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items