IRC log of html-wg on 2012-09-06

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:58:40 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #html-wg
15:58:40 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/09/06-html-wg-irc
15:58:42 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:58:42 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #html-wg
15:58:44 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be html_wg
15:58:44 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see HTML_WG()12:00PM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
15:58:45 [trackbot]
Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference
15:58:45 [trackbot]
Date: 06 September 2012
15:59:07 [paulc]
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15:59:09 [krisk]
krisk has joined #html-wg
15:59:18 [Zakim]
HTML_WG()12:00PM has now started
15:59:26 [Zakim]
+Sam
16:00:08 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
16:00:12 [MartinSoukup]
MartinSoukup has joined #html-wg
16:00:31 [paulc]
zakim, [Microsoft] has paulc
16:00:31 [Zakim]
+paulc; got it
16:00:36 [MFoladare]
MFoladare has joined #html-wg
16:00:38 [paulc]
zakim, who is on the call?
16:00:38 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Sam, [Microsoft]
16:00:39 [Zakim]
[Microsoft] has paulc
16:00:42 [Zakim]
+ +1.613.287.aaaa
16:00:57 [MartinSoukup]
zakim, aaaa is MartinSoukup
16:00:57 [Zakim]
+MartinSoukup; got it
16:01:12 [Zakim]
+Radhika_Roy
16:01:17 [Zakim]
+ +49.322.110.8.aabb
16:01:20 [paulc]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2012JulSep/0025.html
16:01:22 [jaymunro]
zakim, microsoft has me
16:01:22 [Zakim]
+jaymunro; got it
16:01:28 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft.a]
16:01:44 [janina]
janina has joined #html-wg
16:01:45 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft.aa]
16:01:45 [krisk]
zakim, Microsoft.a is krisk
16:01:46 [Zakim]
+krisk; got it
16:01:54 [Zakim]
+Plh
16:02:09 [Zakim]
+??P9
16:02:19 [Eliot]
Eliot has joined #html-wg
16:02:19 [janina]
zakim, ??P9 is Janina
16:02:19 [Zakim]
+Janina; got it
16:02:24 [paulc]
I think [Microsoft] has paulc, [Microsoft.a] has Jay and [Microsoft.aa] has Kris K
16:02:48 [paulc]
You have to wait for Zakim - a little slow at times
16:02:51 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft.a]
16:02:59 [Eliot]
zakim, microsoft.a has me
16:02:59 [Zakim]
+Eliot; got it
16:03:14 [paulc]
zakim, who is on the call?
16:03:14 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Sam, [Microsoft], MartinSoukup, Radhika_Roy, +49.322.110.8.aabb, krisk, [Microsoft.aa], Plh, Janina, [Microsoft.a]
16:03:16 [Zakim]
[Microsoft.a] has Eliot
16:03:16 [Zakim]
[Microsoft] has jaymunro
16:03:34 [paulc]
zakim, [Microsoft] has paulc
16:03:34 [Zakim]
+paulc; got it
16:03:39 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, call Mike
16:03:39 [Zakim]
ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
16:03:41 [Zakim]
+Mike
16:03:41 [Zakim]
+Judy
16:04:00 [plh]
zakim, aabb is Barbara
16:04:00 [Zakim]
+Barbara; got it
16:04:12 [Zakim]
+[Apple]
16:04:35 [hober]
Zakim, Apple is me
16:04:35 [Zakim]
+hober; got it
16:04:55 [paulc]
scribenick: paulc
16:05:30 [paulc]
Topic: Actions due today
16:05:30 [MikeSmith]
agenda?
16:05:44 [paulc]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2012JulSep/0025.html
16:06:05 [paulc]
No actions
16:06:06 [Zakim]
+??P31
16:06:11 [darobin]
Zakim, ??P31 is me
16:06:11 [Zakim]
+darobin; got it
16:06:16 [paulc]
Topic: New issues this week
16:06:27 [paulc]
No new issues
16:06:34 [paulc]
Topic: Items closes last week
16:06:39 [paulc]
ISSUE-131?
16:06:39 [trackbot]
ISSUE-131 -- Should we add a caret location API to canvas, or is the focus API sufficient? -- closed
16:06:39 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/131
16:06:57 [paulc]
Consensus to defer to future version of HTML
16:08:00 [paulc]
Split for ISSUE-74
16:08:10 [paulc]
The original bug will be marked for future processing
16:08:14 [paulc]
ISSUE-201
16:08:24 [plh]
bug related to 131 could be 7011 or 7404
16:08:24 [paulc]
ISSUE-201?
16:08:24 [trackbot]
ISSUE-201 -- Provide canvas location and hit testing capability to fallback content -- open
16:08:24 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/201
16:08:27 [cabanier]
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16:08:31 [rubys]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/index.php?title=User:Eoconnor/ISSUE-201&oldid=13386
16:08:35 [paulc]
CfC closed on Aug 30
16:08:44 [gitbot]
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16:08:44 [gitbot]
[html] darobin pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/20ab137355a21e4f6de2740ae997819f1b8f01ed
16:08:44 [gitbot]
[html/master] revert addition of gopher as per https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18067 - Robin Berjon
16:08:47 [gitbot]
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16:08:50 [paulc]
We have consensus on the above proposal and waiting for Editors to apply it.
16:09:02 [MikeSmith]
q+ to comment on issue 206
16:09:03 [paulc]
ISSUE-206?
16:09:03 [trackbot]
ISSUE-206 -- Should HTML5 have a meta generator exception to the alt requirement? -- open
16:09:03 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/206
16:09:04 [Zakim]
+mjs
16:09:22 [paulc]
We have consensus on part of this ISSUE-206
16:09:27 [gitbot]
gitbot has joined #html-wg
16:09:27 [gitbot]
[html] rubys pushed 3 new commits to feature/whatwg: https://github.com/w3c/html/compare/15888f44778f...63289e0e25cd
16:09:27 [gitbot]
[html/feature/whatwg] [e] (0) I don't really understand why this is an improvement, but in the interests of avoiding unnecessary forking... - ianh
16:09:30 [gitbot]
[html/feature/whatwg] [e] (0) Provide a hook for other specs. - ianh
16:09:32 [gitbot]
[html/feature/whatwg] [e] (0) Explain why gopher isn't on the list - ianh
16:09:34 [gitbot]
gitbot has left #html-wg
16:09:36 [paulc]
Mike Smith: I have been trying to get consensus here
16:10:02 [paulc]
Mike smith: I am not planning to work further on this until next month.
16:10:17 [plh]
q+
16:10:20 [paulc]
Mike Smith: I wanted to sync up with others and cannot do that until next monght.
16:10:21 [plh]
ack Mike
16:10:21 [Zakim]
MikeSmith, you wanted to comment on issue 206
16:10:55 [paulc]
Mike Smith: We have made positive progress to agree to drop metagenerator
16:11:18 [paulc]
Mike Smith: Coming up with an alternative is separate and harder to achieve.
16:11:49 [rubys]
ack plh
16:12:22 [paulc]
PLH: Mike - are you saying you still want to solve this in HTML5.0? Or should we defer the alternative to HTML.Next?
16:12:37 [paulc]
Mike Smith: I am okay with deferring it but Henry might not agree.
16:12:40 [erikadoyle]
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16:13:15 [Zakim]
-darobin
16:13:18 [paulc]
Mike Smith: I was to be in sync with henry to ensure that validation services are in sync.
16:13:35 [adrianba]
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16:13:38 [paulc]
Maciej: Are Ted's proposal acceptable to Mike?
16:13:53 [paulc]
Mike: What is acceptable to me depends on what is acceptable to Henry.
16:13:56 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
16:14:08 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft.aaa]
16:14:14 [paulc]
Mike: Henry and Mike came up with a very long attribute name and others did not like it.
16:14:19 [adrianba]
zakim, [Microsoft.aaa] is me
16:14:19 [Zakim]
+adrianba; got it
16:14:33 [paulc]
Mike: I am neutral about the attribute name but I want to wait until a talk to Henry.
16:14:53 [MikeSmith]
q?
16:14:58 [paulc]
Mike: Not much to add - let's move on
16:15:05 [paulc]
Topic: Items Closing this week
16:15:11 [paulc]
No items closing this week
16:15:24 [paulc]
Topic: Items closing next week
16:15:31 [paulc]
No items closing next week
16:15:40 [adrianba]
rrsagent, pointer
16:15:40 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2012/09/06-html-wg-irc#T16-15-40
16:15:41 [paulc]
Topic: New Calls this week
16:16:00 [paulc]
No new calls this week
16:16:08 [paulc]
Topic: New surveys this week
16:16:13 [paulc]
No new surveys
16:16:23 [paulc]
Topic: Decisions this week
16:16:27 [paulc]
No new decisions
16:16:34 [paulc]
Topic: Other business
16:16:38 [paulc]
ISSUE-30?
16:16:38 [trackbot]
ISSUE-30 -- Should HTML 5 include a longdesc attribute for images -- open
16:16:38 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/30
16:16:59 [paulc]
Sam: Lots of discussion on the preceding TF meeting
16:17:05 [paulc]
q+
16:17:10 [MikeSmith]
q?
16:17:27 [paulc]
Are there minutes available?
16:17:31 [Judy]
Judy has joined #html-wg
16:17:47 [rubys]
http://www.w3.org/2012/09/06-html-a11y-minutes.html
16:17:48 [mjs]
q+
16:18:01 [paulc]
Mike: There was no agenda but the meeting did occur.
16:18:58 [paulc]
Mike: Richard help this discusion about ISSUE-204. Several others participated in that discussion. M Cooper scribed that discussion well.
16:19:08 [Lachy]
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16:19:55 [paulc]
Mike: Rich's points helped clarify some items for me on the call. Where the points of disagreement are and where the possible agreements might be.
16:20:00 [paulc]
ack paulc
16:20:10 [rubys]
ack mjs
16:20:25 [paulc]
Maciej: Could someone give a brief summary of the discussion?
16:20:39 [paulc]
Sam: I have excerpts ready and can comment on them.
16:20:46 [paulc]
Maciej: Sounds like a good plan.
16:20:50 [rubys]
(11:24:43 AM) Stevef: i agree with mike that we should try to reach consensus without formal objection
16:20:50 [rubys]
+1
16:21:10 [rubys]
(11:35:28 AM) MichaelC: propose we say something like "in the future, user agents my have the ability to expose semantics of hidden descriptions" and encourage providing those semantics
16:21:10 [rubys]
Please post suggestioned rewording into the bug report(s) themselves. If we converge to a small number of stable proposals quickly, I would support reopening issue 204 and proceeding directly to survey on those proposals.
16:21:53 [MikeSmith]
q?
16:22:14 [paulc]
Sam: If we can get the proposals out maybe re-opening the issue and going to survey on a small number of proposals.
16:22:40 [Zakim]
-darobin
16:22:40 [paulc]
Janina: I don't think we are that stage.
16:22:52 [paulc]
Judy: Text is still not enough.
16:23:05 [paulc]
Janina: And Rich S is on vacation for a couple of week.s
16:23:24 [Zakim]
+??P4
16:23:38 [plh]
q+
16:23:42 [paulc]
Sam: current text is not enough but maybe we can get a small number of stable proposals
16:23:47 [MikeSmith]
q?
16:23:54 [MikeSmith]
ack plh
16:24:17 [MikeSmith]
plh means hober
16:24:23 [MikeSmith]
oh
16:24:31 [MikeSmith]
yeah
16:24:33 [paulc]
Philippe: Rich was reporting on the TF that he was talking to James. It would be useful for James and Rich to be in sync.
16:24:47 [paulc]
Ted: I agree and we continue to work the issue.
16:24:50 [MikeSmith]
q?
16:24:52 [plh]
s/and Rich/and Ted/
16:24:57 [rubys]
(11:38:58 AM) MichaelC: it would be OK for HTML to have an attribute to solve this problem
16:24:57 [rubys]
... perhaps "LongdescZeroEdit" could be be updated to advocate a new "describedby" (sans "aria-") attribute?
16:25:37 [paulc]
Sam: someone proposed a specific HTML attribute
16:25:45 [paulc]
Janina: I suggested this in the TF meeting.
16:26:47 [paulc]
Janina: Second proposal PF would be willing to mint a ARIA 1.1 (post ARIA 1.0) attribute for this functionality.
16:26:58 [paulc]
q+
16:27:12 [rubys]
ack next
16:27:14 [Judy]
q+
16:27:38 [rubys]
ack next
16:28:13 [MikeSmith]
q?
16:28:20 [paulc]
Judy: On the TF meeting there was also discussion about the suggestion to split out ARIA from HTML5
16:29:02 [hober]
The PFWG charter: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/charter201006
16:29:06 [adrianba]
PF has Requirements for ARIA 2.0 (Note) in the charter
16:29:23 [mjs]
ARIA charter is here, for reference: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/charter201006
16:29:49 [Judy]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/charter201006#deliverables
16:30:02 [paulc]
The current charter says "Requirements for ARIA 2.0 (Note) "
16:30:27 [Judy]
q+
16:30:34 [MikeSmith]
q?
16:31:09 [MikeSmith]
ack Judy
16:31:10 [paulc]
janina: The current charter has us creating ARIA 1.0. The Requirements is being done.
16:31:22 [mjs]
q+
16:31:28 [plh]
q+
16:31:32 [MikeSmith]
q?
16:31:37 [paulc]
Judy: There is discussiona about ARIA 1.1 ideas and some longer term features.
16:32:05 [Zakim]
-darobin
16:32:10 [paulc]
Judy: PF is working on a charter extension which might include some ARIA 1.1 work.
16:32:35 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
16:32:36 [MikeSmith]
q?
16:32:43 [rubys]
ack next
16:32:54 [plh]
q-
16:33:02 [paulc]
Maciej: Is there a draft available of the ARIA,Next requirements?
16:33:18 [paulc]
Janina: There are tracker items but no actual document.
16:33:27 [rubys]
(11:42:40 AM) MichaelC: plh: it's clear that people here don't want to remove ARIA from HTML
16:33:27 [rubys]
Agreed. The harder question is: can we get people who actively want to make ARIA in HTML to work to provide proposals that they can live with? Not providing a proposal and objecting to all is not a path forward. I'm pleased to see that people have resumed providing suggestions in the form of comments on the existing bugs.
16:33:32 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minutes
16:33:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/06-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
16:33:42 [Judy]
q+
16:34:18 [rubys]
ack next
16:34:22 [Judy]
s/There is discussiona about ARIA 1.1 ideas and some longer term features./ARIA 2.0 requirements discussion has also identified potential nearer-term ARIA 1.1 features.//
16:34:56 [paulc]
Judy: In terms of where the discussion happens on ISSUE-204 soltuion, that is part of the Formal Objection.
16:35:34 [paulc]
Judy: The discussion needs to be happening in close cooperations with the WAI TF.
16:35:51 [MikeSmith]
q?
16:35:57 [plh]
q+
16:36:03 [paulc]
Sam: Not a problem but the conclusions from any WAI TF discussions they should coome back to the HTML WG
16:36:30 [paulc]
Philippe: Could some one give a ptr to the WAI PF Tracker?
16:36:32 [Judy]
q+
16:37:11 [paulc]
Judy: It would be clearer in a few weeks since they are working on the Tracker items.
16:37:24 [rubys]
ack next
16:37:26 [paulc]
Judy: PF is interested in HTML WG feedback.
16:37:42 [paulc]
janina: I don't have the URI available.
16:38:09 [Judy]
s/working on the Tracker items/working on separating out ARIA 1.1 and ARIA 2.0; and my understanding is that PFWG will be interested in feedback and input on the 1.1 list.
16:38:18 [paulc]
Janina: The idea of the ARIA 1.1 items is to handle items quickly and to handle items related to HTML discussion.
16:38:35 [paulc]
Judy: This might be available in 3-4 weeks.
16:39:18 [paulc]
Judy: I was on the queue to point the problems with pulling out ARIA from HTML5.
16:39:32 [paulc]
Judy: There is on list and off list discussion.
16:39:43 [paulc]
q+
16:39:48 [plh]
ack Judy
16:40:10 [paulc]
Judy: People are reacting to the proposal.
16:40:31 [paulc]
Sam: But now people are actually discussing the technical matters in ISSUE-204
16:41:31 [paulc]
Judy: The FO contains both technical and procedural objections.
16:41:45 [paulc]
Judy: Solving only the technical problems may not be enough.
16:42:01 [paulc]
Judy: The technical discussion need to happen on the ARIA TF.
16:42:10 [mjs]
I just want to note for the record in the minutes that Judy said it's not her or Janina's preferred outcome to make progress on resolving the Formal Objection
16:42:44 [paulc]
Janina: The procedural issues are not about ARIA. 149 without problems and 1 with problems.
16:43:03 [Judy]
s/Judy: This might be available in 3-4 weeks./Janina: This might be available in 3-4 weeks./
16:43:17 [paulc]
Janina: There has not been a proble overwhelmingly but there is one that is a problem.
16:43:33 [paulc]
Sam: Janina: The other 149 were done correctly?
16:43:59 [paulc]
Judy: I think Janina is saying that the outcome was okay.
16:44:25 [paulc]
Judy: What is the agenda item?
16:44:36 [paulc]
Sam: Issue-30 is the agenda item.
16:44:58 [paulc]
Sam: It is appropriate to discuss the Formal objection since it is blocking ISSUE-30.
16:45:12 [rubys]
ack next
16:45:17 [MikeSmith]
fww, I agree with Sam that that the discussion here has been useful
16:45:43 [Judy]
jb: it sounds are though you are actually discussing the FO itself, which is both procedural and technical, and which I don't think is appropriate to discuss here.
16:46:10 [Judy]
...this is not to say that technical progress is not useful, but that this is not the full context of the FO.
16:46:43 [paulc]
Paul: the chairs put the split out ARIA forward since we are under tremendous pressure to unblock ISSUE-30
16:46:59 [MikeSmith]
q?
16:47:05 [paulc]
Paul: the proposal has got some people talking and working on at leat the technical part of ISSUE-204
16:47:24 [paulc]
Janina: Paul - thanks for your opinion.
16:47:38 [paulc]
Janina: The TF thinks this would only delay HTML5 further.
16:47:53 [paulc]
Paul: Why would you think it will delay?
16:48:14 [Judy]
q+
16:48:17 [paulc]
Janina: PF would make an objection about this.
16:48:21 [Zakim]
-darobin
16:48:31 [rubys]
ack next
16:48:44 [Zakim]
+??P4
16:48:46 [rubys]
q+
16:48:52 [paulc]
Judy: If the Chairs intent to make A11Y optional in HTML5 ...
16:49:27 [paulc]
Judy: If the Charis want to unravel all the work already done and cause less A11Y then you would been sendint that message
16:49:28 [Zakim]
-darobin
16:49:58 [paulc]
Judy: Under the pressure the Chairs feel losing the work done (for both groups) would be a loss
16:49:59 [Zakim]
+??P4
16:50:23 [Zakim]
-darobin
16:50:26 [paulc]
Sam: It is not our choice to make A11y optional but we are trying to figure out to make our schedule pressure
16:50:43 [paulc]
Sam: Anyone else?
16:50:48 [paulc]
No one.
16:51:09 [paulc]
New editor: Robin Berjon
16:52:03 [paulc]
Judy: There needs to additional followup on the list about the Chairs proposal to split out ARIA.
16:52:10 [Zakim]
+??P4
16:53:19 [rubys]
I note that Judy said that she will follow up on list
16:53:37 [paulc]
Sam: Welcome to Robin to role as new HTML5 editor.
16:53:50 [rubys]
http://www.w3.org/QA/2012/09/the_flowing_standard.html
16:53:56 [paulc]
Sam: Robin has posted a blog entry on the QA blog.
16:54:05 [paulc]
Sam: this has got some attention.
16:54:42 [paulc]
;<)
16:54:55 [paulc]
any other business?
16:55:02 [paulc]
None
16:55:12 [paulc]
Topic: Chair and scribe for next meeting
16:55:14 [Judy]
s/additional followup on the list about the Chairs proposal to split out ARIA/additional followup on the list clarifying problems with splitting out ARIA./
16:55:32 [paulc]
Kris: Do you want a testing TF report?
16:55:44 [paulc]
Sam: We will do the TF reports next week.
16:56:01 [Judy]
s/On the TF meeting there was also discussion about the suggestion to split out ARIA from HTML5/On the TF meeting there was also discussion about the suggestion to split out ARIA from HTML5, and clear opposition to that./
16:56:36 [paulc]
Scribe for next week: Ted volunteered for next week.
16:56:45 [Zakim]
-MartinSoukup
16:56:48 [Zakim]
-Mike
16:56:48 [paulc]
Topic: Adjournement
16:56:49 [Zakim]
-Plh
16:56:49 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft.a]
16:56:50 [Zakim]
-hober
16:56:52 [Zakim]
-krisk
16:56:52 [Zakim]
-Janina
16:56:54 [Zakim]
-adrianba
16:56:54 [janina]
janina has left #html-wg
16:56:56 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft.aa]
16:56:58 [Zakim]
-mjs
16:56:59 [paulc]
We adjourned at :56 meetings after the hour.
16:56:59 [Zakim]
-darobin
16:57:01 [Zakim]
-Judy
16:57:09 [Zakim]
-Barbara
16:57:13 [Zakim]
-Sam
16:57:26 [paulc]
rssagent, generate mintues
16:57:35 [paulc]
rrsagent, generate minutes
16:57:35 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/06-html-wg-minutes.html paulc
16:59:39 [plh]
zakim, drop Microsoft
16:59:39 [Zakim]
[Microsoft] is being disconnected
16:59:40 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft]
16:59:43 [dsinger]
dsinger has joined #html-wg
16:59:44 [plh]
zakim, drop Roy
16:59:44 [Zakim]
sorry, plh, I do not see a party named 'Roy'
16:59:54 [plh]
zakim, drop Radhika_Roy
16:59:54 [Zakim]
Radhika_Roy is being disconnected
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HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
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Attendees were Sam, paulc, +1.613.287.aaaa, MartinSoukup, Radhika_Roy, +49.322.110.8.aabb, jaymunro, [Microsoft], krisk, Plh, Janina, Eliot, Mike, Judy, Barbara, hober, darobin,
16:59:56 [Zakim]
... mjs, adrianba
17:00:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/06-html-wg-minutes.html plh
17:05:31 [darobin]
well, that's 12 bugs down for me today — heading home :)
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[html] techtoons pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/5356e458ecc257229a89f75670c42fdc1b7145bc
22:46:35 [gitbot]
[html/master] Added previous editor - Jay Munro
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[html] hober pushed 3 new commits to master: https://github.com/w3c/html/compare/5356e458ecc2...151dc9db825b
23:45:14 [gitbot]
[html/master] Fix Makefile rules to match new output filenames. - Edward O'Connor
23:45:16 [gitbot]
[html/master] [Bug 14028] Remove dangling cssElementMap content from the W3C spec. - Edward O'Connor
23:45:17 [gitbot]
[html/master] [Bug 18711] Prevent contents of the Microdata spec from leaking into the HTML5 draft. - Edward O'Connor
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