13:45:58 RRSAgent has joined #eval 13:45:58 logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/09/06-eval-irc 13:46:00 RRSAgent, make logs world 13:46:00 Zakim has joined #eval 13:46:02 Zakim, this will be 3825 13:46:02 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 14 minutes 13:46:03 Meeting: WCAG 2.0 Evaluation Methodology Task Force Teleconference 13:46:03 Date: 06 September 2012 13:51:03 vivienne has joined #eval 13:55:44 ericvelleman has joined #eval 13:56:19 Detlev has joined #eval 13:56:53 MartijnHoutepen has joined #eval 13:58:09 zakim, this is eval 13:58:09 shadi, I see WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be eval". 13:58:12 WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has now started 13:58:20 +??P9 13:58:25 zakim, ??P9 is me 13:58:25 +vivienne; got it 13:59:03 Liz has joined #eval 13:59:26 Mike has joined #eval 13:59:49 + +1.301.975.aaaa 13:59:53 - +1.301.975.aaaa 14:00:06 + +31.30.239.aabb 14:00:13 zakim, aabb is me 14:00:16 +MartijnHoutepen; got it 14:00:16 zakim, aaaa is Liz 14:00:24 sorry, Liz, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa' 14:00:48 + +49.404.318.aacc 14:00:50 zakim, mute me 14:00:52 + +31.30.239.aadd 14:01:04 MartijnHoutepen should now be muted 14:01:08 +Shadi 14:01:13 zakim, who is on the phone? 14:01:14 Zakim aacc is Detlev 14:01:14 On the phone I see vivienne, MartijnHoutepen (muted), +49.404.318.aacc, +31.30.239.aadd, Shadi 14:01:16 + +1.301.975.aaee 14:01:42 korn has joined #eval 14:01:56 Zakim, aacc is Detlev 14:01:56 +Detlev; got it 14:01:57 q? 14:02:21 Zakim, who is on the phone? 14:02:21 On the phone I see vivienne, MartijnHoutepen (muted), Detlev, +31.30.239.aadd, Shadi, +1.301.975.aaee 14:02:32 Zakim, aadd is Eric 14:02:36 +Eric; got it 14:03:04 zakim, aaee is Liz 14:03:14 Kathy has joined #eval 14:03:20 +[Oracle] 14:03:23 Zakim, Oracle has Peter_Korn 14:03:28 +Liz; got it 14:03:42 +[IPcaller] 14:03:42 Zakim, mute me 14:03:52 +Peter_Korn; got it 14:03:55 kerstin has joined #eval 14:03:58 zakim, mute me 14:04:04 zakim, mute me 14:04:21 no cheap shots about my printer! 14:04:24 zakim, mute me 14:04:34 Detlev should now be muted 14:04:39 I can do it Shadi 14:04:42 I dont mind scribing 14:04:58 ack me 14:05:00 zakim, who is on the phone? 14:05:01 vivienne should now be muted 14:05:06 sorry, kerstin, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you 14:05:06 it seems zakimm doesn't know me 14:05:11 + +1.978.443.aaff 14:05:23 zakim, mute me 14:05:23 Sarah_Swierenga has joined #eval 14:05:26 sorry, Kathy, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you 14:05:38 zakim, who is on the phone? 14:05:50 I'm unidentified too 14:06:02 zakim aaff is me 14:06:07 On the phone I see vivienne (muted), MartijnHoutepen (muted), Detlev, Eric, Shadi, Liz, [Oracle], [IPcaller], +1.978.443.aaff 14:06:13 yes 14:06:15 [Oracle] has Peter_Korn 14:06:21 hello everyone 14:06:27 scribe: shadi 14:06:28 zakim, ipcaller is me 14:06:32 zakim, mute me 14:06:35 Detlev should now be muted 14:06:47 http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/ED-methodology-20120904 14:06:51 On the phone I see vivienne (muted), MartijnHoutepen (muted), Detlev (muted), Eric, Shadi, Liz, [Oracle], [IPcaller], +1.978.443.aaff 14:06:58 [Oracle] has Peter_Korn 14:07:01 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-evaltf/2012Sep/0001.html 14:07:12 + +1.517.432.aagg 14:07:15 zakim, [IPcaller] is me 14:07:28 zakim, aaff is me 14:07:29 updated Editor Draft: http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/ED-methodology-20120904 14:07:33 +kerstin; got it 14:07:38 zakim, mute me 14:07:39 https://www.w3.org/2007/10/htmldiff 14:07:39 Shadi should now be muted 14:07:56 + +1.517.353.aahh 14:08:00 https://www.w3.org/2007/10/htmldiff?doc1=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FWAI%2FER%2Fconformance%2FED-methodology-20120827.html&doc2=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FWAI%2FER%2Fconformance%2FED-methodology-20120904.html 14:08:05 sorry, kerstin, I do not recognize a party named '[IPcaller]' 14:08:12 +Kathy; got it 14:08:16 kerstin should now be muted 14:08:18 zakim, ipcaller is Kerston 14:08:24 q? 14:08:28 sorry, shadi, I do not recognize a party named 'ipcaller' 14:08:36 zakim, who is on the phone? 14:08:38 On the phone I see vivienne (muted), MartijnHoutepen (muted), Detlev (muted), Eric, Shadi (muted), Liz, [Oracle], kerstin (muted), Kathy, +1.517.432.aagg, +1.517.353.aahh 14:08:42 [Oracle] has Peter_Korn 14:08:49 q+ 14:08:53 zakim is a bit slow today 14:08:59 ack me 14:08:59 q? 14:09:21 VC: sent a couple of grammar and typos 14:09:30 ...but otherwise looks fabulous 14:09:39 ...still things to discuss later 14:09:48 ...but good to put out for comments 14:09:53 zakim, mute me 14:09:53 vivienne should now be muted 14:09:54 ...looking really good 14:10:10 EV: have things in the list to discuss 14:10:19 ...also some things came in today 14:10:36 ...will discuss after publication 14:10:47 http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/comments-20120730#c32 14:10:53 Topic: Updated Editor Draft 14:10:58 Topic: Comments 14:11:09 http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/ED-methodology-20120904#step5b 14:11:52 EV: changes title to include "According to this Methodology" 14:12:09 ...also added to the "Methodology Requirement 5.b" 14:12:51 ...also no mention of comitment to repair now 14:12:58 q+ 14:13:02 q+ 14:13:23 q? 14:13:26 ack me 14:13:26 ...also added a review note to get more input on this section 14:14:02 DF: maybe good compromise but slighly confusing to talk about accessibility statements and conformance claims 14:14:34 ...maybe the only difference is that we don't evaluate all pages 14:14:51 ...think OK to go out for now but not very clear right now 14:15:04 EV: have an issue on the sampling section 14:15:10 ...may impact this section too 14:15:26 Zakim, mute me 14:15:26 Detlev should now be muted 14:15:26 ...will be good to see what we get from the public 14:15:34 ack me 14:15:37 ack me 14:15:38 me too 14:15:45 Eric - others can hear me... 14:15:47 Zakim, mute me 14:15:47 Detlev should now be muted 14:15:49 zakim, mute me 14:15:49 Shadi should now be muted 14:16:28 PK: may have a suggestion 14:16:30 Prefer "Provide an Accessibility Evaluation Conformance Statement" 14:16:48 ...but OK to go out for now if needed 14:17:14 MoeKraft has joined #eval 14:17:38 Or: "Provide an Accessibility Evaluation Statement" 14:17:43 EV: WCAG WG was rather sceptical to the use of the word conformance 14:17:46 q+ 14:17:55 better that version! without conformance 14:17:55 q- 14:18:11 PK: does not include "conformance" 14:18:15 + +1.978.899.aaii 14:18:18 q- 14:18:25 q? 14:18:28 Zakim, aaii is MoeKraft 14:18:28 +MoeKraft; got it 14:18:36 ...accessibility *evaluation* statement rather than accessibility statement 14:18:41 ack me 14:18:55 Shadi; likes it 14:19:48 +1 14:19:50 Shadi: Since Peter was OK for not changing before the thing goes out as draft, it may stay? (not sure...) 14:19:51 +1 14:19:54 +1 14:19:57 +1 14:19:58 fine 14:20:04 +1 14:20:06 +1 14:20:06 [[Provide Accessibility Evaluation Statement]] 14:20:18 [[Provide an Accessibility Evaluation Statement (Optional)]] 14:20:23 zakim, mute me 14:20:23 Shadi should now be muted 14:20:25 +1 14:20:43 ffine 14:21:08 RESOLVED: Provide an Accessibility Evaluation Statement (Optional) 14:21:52 PK: also need to change throughout the document accordingly 14:22:54 looks ok 14:23:01 Topic: Section 5 14:23:04 fine 14:23:06 http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/ED-methodology-20120904#conformance 14:23:13 +1 14:23:16 +1 14:23:16 +1 14:23:17 +1 14:23:18 +1 14:23:23 +1 14:23:24 +1 14:23:31 EV: changed title of section 5 to remove "conformance" to avoid ambuity with WCAG conformance 14:23:40 q+ 14:24:00 zakim, who is on the phone? 14:24:00 On the phone I see vivienne (muted), MartijnHoutepen (muted), Detlev (muted), Eric, Shadi (muted), Liz, [Oracle], kerstin (muted), Kathy, +1.517.432.aagg, +1.517.353.aahh, MoeKraft 14:24:03 [Oracle] has Peter_Korn 14:24:17 "The evaluation carried out conforms with this methodology as per 5. Conformance with this Methodology;" should then become: "The evaluation carried out IS BASED ON this methodology as per 5. APPLICATION OF this Methodology;" 14:24:24 http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/comments-20120730-WCAG 14:24:33 This is the first bullet under 3.5.2 Step 5.b 14:25:02 ack me 14:25:20 zakim, mute me 14:25:20 Shadi should now be muted 14:25:35 Tim has joined #eval 14:26:03 q+ 14:26:24 q- 14:26:24 PK: need to remove "conform" from the first bullet in section 3.5.2 14:26:24 yes, makes sense 14:26:26 ack me 14:27:06 zakim, mute me 14:27:06 Shadi should now be muted 14:27:16 q? 14:27:33 http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/comments-20120730-WCAG 14:27:35 SAZ: editor discretion on term for "conforms" - maybe not "based on" 14:27:48 PK: fine, just need to remove "conforms" 14:27:57 Topic: WCAG WG comments 14:28:34 EV: changed "Requirements" to "Methodology Requirements" 14:28:54 ...framing it to this methodology 14:29:07 ...changes to Abstract and Introduction 14:29:17 +Tim_Boland 14:29:27 ...tried to clarify what the methodology is and isn't more precisely 14:30:01 ...added links to the issues and disposition of comments from review notes 14:30:14 ...tried to get the framing more in shape 14:30:27 q? 14:30:29 agree 14:30:36 agree 14:30:38 agreed 14:30:41 agree 14:30:45 agree 14:30:48 agree 14:31:38 agree 14:31:47 EV: need to discuss comments #6 and #9 with commenter 14:32:14 ...#6 is about requirements that refer to other sub-requirements 14:32:32 ...would like to explore this in more detail later on 14:32:53 q+ 14:32:59 ack me 14:33:26 DF: the second diagram doesn't seem to add much 14:33:41 ...doesn't harm either but not as helpful as the first 14:33:49 q+ 14:33:51 q+ 14:33:58 ack me 14:34:05 EV: difficult to describe because of that! 14:34:21 VC: not sure need any arrows 14:34:30 ...could just show the sequence 14:34:51 EV: the idea was to show that it isn't necessarily a sequence but some level of iteratively 14:35:12 VC: how about life-cycle diagram 14:35:31 DF: mostly linear with some exceptions 14:35:45 ...but would you go back between steps 4 and 5? 14:36:04 ...think either need to identify what the arrows mean or get rid of them 14:36:16 VC: how about a flowchart? 14:36:28 EV: like the idea 14:36:37 q? 14:36:54 zakim, mute me 14:36:54 vivienne should now be muted 14:36:59 ...only initial diagram 14:37:06 ...could improve it later 14:37:13 ack me 14:38:04 Shadi: Commenting on diagram - diagram meets its purpos of triggering discussion, is just a first draft to be improved upon 14:38:31 Shadi: finds comments useful - WCAG WG also suggested a workflow diagram 14:38:57 Shadi: if anyone wants to imprtove of it visually, feel invited to contribute 14:39:03 I can work on that 14:39:05 zakim, mute me 14:39:05 Shadi should now be muted 14:39:11 Shadi: the aim is just to give an overview 14:39:21 fine with draft diagram for now +1 - I think it's important to have a visual here to draw attention to the process. 14:39:23 KW: I can take a first stab at that 14:39:43 ACTION: Kathy to work on workflow diagram for Section 3 14:39:43 Sorry, couldn't find user - Kathy 14:40:10 Zakim, mute me 14:40:10 Detlev should now be muted 14:40:16 kwahlbin i think 14:40:28 ACTION: kwahlbin to work on workflow diagram for Section 3 14:40:29 Created ACTION-5 - Work on workflow diagram for Section 3 [on Kathleen Wahlbin - due 2012-09-13]. 14:40:43 q+ 14:40:59 EV: other comments on this September 4 version? 14:41:03 This latest draft reads well! 14:41:15 q? 14:41:18 ack me 14:41:39 q+ 14:41:40 DF: want to take up the numbering issue 14:41:55 ...simulataneous numbers and letters 14:42:16 Zakim, mute me 14:42:16 Detlev should now be muted 14:42:16 zakim, unmute me 14:42:17 kerstin should no longer be muted 14:42:49 it's me 14:42:50 q+ 14:43:00 ack me 14:43:00 I have some issues, I'll send via mail 14:43:10 zakim, mute me 14:43:10 kerstin should now be muted 14:43:19 ok, i type 14:43:30 http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/2011/eval/track/issues/open 14:43:51 Shadi: Open new issue: numbering 14:44:02 I don't agree with calling it "standardized approach", think approach is ok 14:44:37 Shadi: standardized approach was removed 14:44:41 I'm also still unsatisfied with not adressing quality criteria 14:45:06 sorry? 14:45:16 yes 14:45:43 yes 14:45:45 Shadi:can be changed to common approach 14:45:47 fine 14:45:47 Yes 14:45:49 q+ 14:45:50 yes 14:45:52 ok 14:45:55 common is not ok. it could be "common" if someone uses it 14:46:09 [[section 1.2: change "standardized approach" to "common approach"]] 14:46:22 SS: common to whom? 14:46:27 +1 to "Systematic" 14:46:27 ...systematic? 14:46:38 systematic sounds OK 14:46:40 I like systematic 14:46:47 ...consistency angle of "standardized" is nice 14:46:59 I would agree with systematic 14:47:00 Unified approach 14:47:46 PK: slight plurality for "systematic"? 14:48:01 +1 systematic 14:48:06 SS: sounds ok 14:48:08 fine for me 14:48:10 +1 14:48:10 +1 systematic 14:48:11 ok 14:48:11 +1 14:48:12 +1 14:48:12 +1 14:48:12 +1 14:48:32 +1 14:48:36 RESOLVED: change "standardized approach" to "systematic approach" 14:48:47 ack me 14:49:07 Shadi: Theere was the issue of goodnesds criteria that Kerstin raised 14:49:11 q- 14:49:22 http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/2011/eval/track/issues/6 14:49:57 Shadi: we have opened an issue on goodness criteria and objectivity 14:50:22 EV: several open things 14:50:38 ...goodness criteria, sampling approach, ... 14:51:00 zakim, mute me 14:51:00 kerstin was already muted, kerstin 14:51:19 ...to come back to after publication 14:51:23 zakim, mute me 14:51:23 Shadi should now be muted 14:51:35 ...will be discussing some during the review period too 14:51:44 ack me 14:51:52 q- 14:52:11 Shadi: yes, ask, should bwe explicit in the minutes 14:52:12 Topic: Agreement for Publication as a Working Draft 14:52:19 +1 14:52:20 Yes 14:52:20 +1 for publication 14:52:22 yes, go ahead 14:52:23 agree 14:52:24 +1 14:52:25 yes 14:52:27 yes, fine 14:52:30 +1 14:52:47 Eric, may be ask for objections? 14:52:51 +1 14:52:56 +1 for publication 14:53:03 want to think about it till tomorrow 14:53:10 +1 for publication 14:53:29 RESOLVED: Eval TF agrees with publishing the dociment as an updated WD 14:53:44 RESOLVED: Eval TF agrees with publishing the dociment as an updated WD (pending the discussed changes) 14:53:56 q+ 14:54:07 ack me 14:54:36 Shadi: TF is not a decision-making body, the WCAG WG has to approve it 14:54:49 zakim, mute me 14:54:49 Shadi should now be muted 14:55:03 EV: need approval from WCAG WG 14:55:05 q? 14:55:12 ...then all the discussions will start 14:55:28 EV: thank you all for attending 14:55:33 good luck in the call! 14:55:35 zakim, unmute me 14:55:35 MartijnHoutepen should no longer be muted 14:55:35 bye 14:55:37 -MoeKraft 14:55:38 ok, by, and sorry for inconvenience 14:55:38 by 14:55:38 -Tim_Boland 14:55:39 bye now 14:55:40 -[Oracle] 14:55:40 -Kathy 14:55:43 -kerstin 14:55:45 -vivienne 14:55:46 korn has left #eval 14:55:46 -MartijnHoutepen 14:55:46 -Shadi 14:55:48 -Eric 14:55:49 -Detlev 14:55:51 -Liz 14:55:53 MartijnHoutepen has left #eval 14:56:07 bye 14:56:22 ericvelleman has left #eval 14:57:20 trackbot, end meeting 14:57:20 Zakim, list attendees 14:57:20 As of this point the attendees have been vivienne, +1.301.975.aaaa, +31.30.239.aabb, MartijnHoutepen, +49.404.318.aacc, +31.30.239.aadd, Shadi, +1.301.975.aaee, Detlev, Eric, Liz, 14:57:24 ... Peter_Korn, +1.978.443.aaff, +1.517.432.aagg, kerstin, +1.517.353.aahh, Kathy, +1.978.899.aaii, MoeKraft, Tim_Boland 14:57:28 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 14:57:28 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/06-eval-minutes.html trackbot 14:57:29 RRSAgent, bye 14:57:29 I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/09/06-eval-actions.rdf : 14:57:29 ACTION: Kathy to work on workflow diagram for Section 3 [1] 14:57:29