14:54:20 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #forms
14:54:20 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/09/05-forms-irc
14:54:22 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:54:22 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #forms
14:54:24 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be IA_XForms
14:54:24 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see IA_XForms()11:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
14:54:25 <trackbot> Meeting: Forms Working Group Teleconference
14:54:25 <trackbot> Date: 05 September 2012
14:54:49 <Steven> Steven has joined #forms
14:55:35 <Steven_> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2012Sep/0000.html
14:55:43 <Steven_> Steven_ has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2012Sep/0000 (Steven_)
14:56:08 <Steven_> Regrets: Erik
14:58:15 <Zakim> IA_XForms()11:00AM has now started
14:58:21 <Zakim> +darobin
15:01:14 <nvdbleek> zakim, code?
15:01:14 <Zakim> the conference code is 93676 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), nvdbleek
15:02:08 <Zakim> + +1.323.425.aaaa
15:02:19 <nvdbleek> zakim, I am +1.323.425.aaaa
15:02:19 <Zakim> +nvdbleek; got it
15:02:23 <Zakim> + +44.782.483.aabb
15:02:40 <pfennell> pfennell has joined #forms
15:02:42 <Zakim> +??P18
15:03:11 <Steven_> zakim, who is here?
15:03:11 <Zakim> On the phone I see darobin, nvdbleek, +44.782.483.aabb, ??P18
15:03:13 <Zakim> On IRC I see pfennell, Steven, Zakim, RRSAgent, Steven_, alain, nvdbleek, trackbot
15:03:54 <Steven_> zakim, I am ??P18
15:03:54 <Zakim> +Steven_; got it
15:04:08 <Steven_> zakim, darobin is really alain
15:04:08 <Zakim> +alain; got it
15:04:23 <Steven_> zakim +44 is pfennell
15:04:28 <John_Boyer> John_Boyer has joined #forms
15:04:32 <Steven_> zakim, +44 is pfennell
15:04:32 <Zakim> +pfennell; got it
15:04:45 <Zakim> +John_Boyer
15:04:45 <Steven_> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:04:47 <Zakim> On the phone I see alain, nvdbleek, pfennell, Steven_, John_Boyer (muted)
15:07:01 <John_Boyer> Topic: FPWDs published
15:07:05 <John_Boyer> http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms20/ and http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms-xpath/
15:07:20 <John_Boyer> Scribe: John_Boyer
15:08:11 <John_Boyer> Steven: Congrats and thanks for all the hard work, esp. Nick
15:08:17 <John_Boyer> Topic: TPAC
15:08:27 <John_Boyer> Steven: Could have a meeting if enough people
15:08:35 <John_Boyer> rrsagent, make minutes
15:08:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/05-forms-minutes.html John_Boyer
15:08:46 <nvdbleek> http://www.w3.org/2012/10/TPAC/
15:09:28 <John_Boyer> Steven: It's in Lyon, the culinary capital of France
15:10:16 <John_Boyer> Topic: [xml-dev] XForms {Schemas}
15:10:18 <John_Boyer> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2012Sep/0000.html
15:10:41 <alain> http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/201209/msg00006.html
15:12:02 <John_Boyer> Timothy wonders if schemas attached to xforms can use includes
15:12:37 <John_Boyer> Steven: Alain, can you post a followup to ensure Timothy understands that you can indeed have an include
15:12:49 <John_Boyer> Alain: Yes I can, no action item needed.
15:13:52 <John_Boyer> Topic: Comment on description xf:dispatch in XForms 1.1
15:13:53 <John_Boyer> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-forms-editor/2012Jul/0000.html
15:15:18 <nvdbleek> I responded to this http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-forms-editor/2012Jul/0001.html
15:18:33 <John_Boyer> Nick: I sent followup reply, and Michael said he gets it now but asks for some more examples in spec or in an accompanying document.
15:20:00 <John_Boyer> Nick: Better to redirect to XML events spec
15:20:07 <John_Boyer> Steven: Agrees
15:20:30 <John_Boyer> Topic: XForms and CSS
15:20:31 <John_Boyer> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2012Jul/0000.html
15:21:16 <John_Boyer> Alain: XForms CSS has to be processed with XSLT, which is challenging to performance, so wondering if it is really useful
15:22:30 <John_Boyer> John: So are you specifically asking about the pseudo-classes and pseudo-elements in appendix G of XForms 1.1?
15:22:40 <John_Boyer> Alain: Yes, they're hard to maintain
15:23:04 <Zakim> + +1.443.837.aacc
15:23:32 <John_Boyer> Steven: It's non-normative, so you'd still be conformant without supporting this, even though that would interfere with interoperability of XForms+XHTML.
15:23:55 <Steven_> zakim, aacc is Kurt
15:23:55 <Zakim> +Kurt; got it
15:24:24 <John_Boyer> Steven: I feel your pain having to implement this, and you'll have to decide whether to support it, but I feel it should stay in the spec as indicating a way to do it
15:26:12 <John_Boyer> Nick: The problem is that there is a non-normative section that says how to combine XForms with CSS, but most implementations use their own technique and don't support this
15:28:53 <John_Boyer> Steven: Many implementations don't do it as pseudo-classes because pseudo-classes don't work, so they are implemented as real css classes
15:29:21 <John_Boyer> Kurt: Haven't run across a case where they work, and browser makers are unlikely to add enough support any time soon
15:29:34 <John_Boyer> Steven: I suggest we add to the appendix
15:29:59 <Steven> ACTION: Nick to write up CSS class names as alternative CSS method
15:30:00 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1912 - Write up CSS class names as alternative CSS method [on Nick Van Den Bleeken - due 2012-09-12].
15:31:04 <John_Boyer> Topic: Applying a stylesheet in an instance to data in an instance
15:31:06 <John_Boyer> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2012Jul/0002.html
15:31:07 <Steven_> Steven_ has joined #forms
15:31:50 <John_Boyer> Nick: We talked about doing this as an action and as a function, but we need to pick a way
15:32:00 <John_Boyer> Alain: I put together an implementation as a function
15:32:35 <nvdbleek> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/Transform
15:34:28 <John_Boyer> Nick: The problem is that if you do it with a function, then the dependency system only creates dependencies on the node(s) used as input to the transform and the root output node.  But if anything changes in the subtree, no dependencies happen
15:35:47 <John_Boyer> Nick: Also, the dependencies obtained from the input param is only on the root node, not all the tree descendants, so if those descendants change, you won't know to reevaluate the function
15:37:19 <John_Boyer> John: Is answer that we need to set dependencies on the whole subtree, perhaps esp. the leaf nodes?
15:37:59 <John_Boyer> Nick: The structure could change too and you'd want to know to rerun the function, although if there is a structural change you'll get a rebuild so maybe that is not as big of a deal
15:38:31 <John_Boyer> Alain: Implementations are acting differently anyway with respect to dependencies
15:40:09 <John_Boyer> Nick: Yes, but we have a spec for how it should be done, and so we should specify how transform() interacts with that.  One may be less interested in dependencies on transform if you don't conform to dependencies, but that's not a rationale for ignoring the dependency problem on the transform() function
15:40:27 <John_Boyer> Steven: Didn't we agree to relax the wording on the dependencies?
15:40:39 <John_Boyer> Nick: But it wasn't done
15:41:59 <John_Boyer> John: The definition of dependency was relaxed, both in XForms 2.0 and in a 1.1 erratum, but that was different and a lot less work than relaxing the whole way that recalculation can occur
15:43:10 <John_Boyer> Nick: I think someone needs to define an upgrade to how dependencies are calculated to cover functions like transform() and id()
15:43:39 <John_Boyer> Steven: sounds like we need a task force to work on this, and it should include Erik
15:43:47 <John_Boyer> Nick: Erik and John should be there
15:44:07 <John_Boyer> Nick: John knows the current method, and Erik knows his alternative method really well
15:44:15 <John_Boyer> Steven: OK, let's put this on hold for a future meeting
15:44:42 <John_Boyer> John: What was the problem with id()?
15:45:20 <John_Boyer> Nick: If you change the id of elements anywhere in any instance, the id() function wouldn't know it has to run again
15:46:50 <John_Boyer> John: OK so the id() function is really a lot harder because it is creating an implicit dependency on everything, whereas the transform() is focused on its parameters
15:50:13 <John_Boyer> Nick: Yes, and it creates a dependency on all nodes in all instances without even passing them as explicit input parameters nor really implicit default values of actual parameters to the functoin
15:50:45 <John_Boyer> Kurt: saying some stuff I can't hear
15:50:58 <John_Boyer> s/functoin/function
15:52:14 <John_Boyer> Nick: You could listen to DOM mutation events on the nodes you're listening to, but that's another way of wording it
15:53:55 <John_Boyer> John: Except maybe as a note, we probably shouldn't go that deep into how to implement the dependencies
15:54:12 <John_Boyer> Steven: will come back to it another time
15:54:44 <John_Boyer> Topic: Recursive dispatch of actions
15:54:45 <John_Boyer> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2012Jul/0003.html
15:55:03 <John_Boyer> Steven: would be so good if we could get Michael to join the group
15:55:46 <John_Boyer> Steven: In this case he wants to show his intermediate stack values by doing a refresh, but refresh only sets a flag
15:57:32 <John_Boyer> Nick: yes
15:57:33 <Zakim> -Kurt
15:58:28 <John_Boyer> John: Actually no, the explicit action is supposed to actually perform the behavior
15:59:02 <John_Boyer> John: Other actions, like insert/delete/setvalue, set a flag to get an implicit version of the behavior to happen at the end of an action sequence
15:59:12 <nvdbleek> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_2.0#action-refresh
15:59:29 <nvdbleek>  i.e. the behavior occurs without dispatching the xforms-refresh event. This action results in the XForms user interface beingrefreshed, and the presentation of user interface controls being updated to reflect the state of the underlying instance data
16:00:15 <John_Boyer> John: The only reason to have explicit actions for rebuild, recalculate, revalidate, refresh is to force the behavior to happen immediately, before the end of the action sequence
16:02:32 <Zakim> -Steven_
16:02:34 <Zakim> -pfennell
16:02:36 <Zakim> -nvdbleek
16:02:38 <Zakim> -alain
16:02:48 <John_Boyer> ACTION: Steven to send reply to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2012Jul/0004.html to indicate the xform-refresh action and event should perform the behavior and so it would be an implementation bug if they don't
16:02:49 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1913 - Send reply to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2012Jul/0004.html to indicate the xform-refresh action and event should perform the behavior and so it would be an implementation bug if they don't [on Steven Pemberton - due 2012-09-12].
16:02:50 <Steven_> Steven_ has joined #forms
16:02:59 <Steven_> rrsagent, make minutes
16:02:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/05-forms-minutes.html Steven_
16:03:01 <Zakim> -John_Boyer
16:03:02 <Zakim> IA_XForms()11:00AM has ended
16:03:02 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.323.425.aaaa, nvdbleek, +44.782.483.aabb, Steven_, alain, pfennell, John_Boyer, +1.443.837.aacc, Kurt
16:03:05 <John_Boyer> rrsagent, make minutes
16:03:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/05-forms-minutes.html John_Boyer
16:03:12 <Steven_> Chair: Steven
16:03:12 <Steven_> rrsagent, make minutes
16:03:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/05-forms-minutes.html Steven_
16:03:56 <alain> alain has joined #forms
17:45:30 <Zakim> Zakim has left #forms
18:28:17 <alain> alain has joined #forms
18:30:02 <alain> alain has left #forms