IRC log of css on 2012-09-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:20:04 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
15:20:08 [glazou]
Zakim, this will be Style
15:20:08 [Zakim]
ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 40 minutes
15:20:13 [glazou]
RRSAgent, make logs public
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15:55:19 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:55:26 [Zakim]
+ +47.23.69.aaaa
15:55:56 [bradk]
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+ +1.604.312.aabb
15:56:01 [Zakim]
15:56:15 [rbetts]
Zakim, aabb is me
15:56:15 [Zakim]
+rbetts; got it
15:56:17 [lstorset]
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15:56:44 [Zakim]
15:56:50 [glazou]
Zakim, ??P37 is me
15:56:50 [Zakim]
+glazou; got it
15:57:09 [glazou]
Zakim, who is noisy?
15:57:20 [Zakim]
glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +47.23.69.aaaa (36%)
15:57:26 [Zakim]
15:57:46 [lstorset]
Zakim, aaaa is me
15:57:46 [Zakim]
+lstorset; got it
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15:59:24 [Zakim]
15:59:30 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.275.aacc
15:59:49 [bradk]
Zakim, aacc is me
15:59:49 [Zakim]
+bradk; got it
16:00:11 [Zakim]
16:00:18 [glazou]
Zakim, who is noisy?
16:00:26 [Zakim]
+ +1.206.390.aadd
16:00:29 [Zakim]
glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 8 (9%), lstorset (5%), bradk (22%)
16:00:48 [stearns]
zakim, aadd is me
16:00:53 [Zakim]
+stearns; got it
16:01:35 [smfr]
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16:02:04 [Zakim]
+ +1.408.636.aaee
16:02:11 [smfr]
Zakim, aaee is me
16:02:20 [smfr]
Zakim, you have the memory of a flea
16:02:21 [Zakim]
+smfr; got it
16:02:26 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'you have the memory of a flea', smfr
16:04:11 [Zakim]
16:05:10 [Zakim]
16:05:28 [koji]
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16:05:54 [Zakim]
+ +1.415.766.aaff
16:06:49 [plinss]
zakim, who is here?
16:06:49 [Zakim]
On the phone I see lstorset, plinss, rbetts, glazou, Lea, Molly_Holzschlag, bradk, ??P54, stearns, smfr, SteveZ, fantasai, dbaron
16:06:51 [Zakim]
On IRC I see koji, smfr, arron, lstorset, bradk, rbetts, jet, dbaron, Molly, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, leaverou, miketaylr, lgombos, drublic, macpherson__, Ms2ger, Liam, shepazu,
16:06:51 [Zakim]
... decadance, isherman, arronei, logbot, ed, trackbot, Bert, dholbert, Hixie, hober, TabAtkins_, gsnedders, fantasai, jwir3, krijnh, alexmog, vhardy, sylvaing, shans,
16:06:52 [Zakim]
... CSSWG_LogBot, heycam|away, paul_irish, stearns, plinss
16:06:53 [SteveZ]
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16:07:10 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.253.aagg
16:07:15 [Zakim]
16:07:18 [TabAtkins_]
zakim, aagg is me
16:07:18 [Zakim]
+TabAtkins_; got it
16:07:23 [koji]
zakim, ??p85 is me
16:07:23 [Zakim]
+koji; got it
16:07:58 [smfr]
scribenick: smfr
16:08:41 [smfr]
Topic: CSS Masking
16:09:01 [smfr]
dirk won't be on the call; regrets
16:09:11 [smfr]
deferring the topic
16:09:18 [smfr]
Topic: flex box and non-visible overflow
16:09:27 [smfr]
16:09:28 [nimbu]
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16:09:59 [smfr]
TabAtkins_: inline blocks, when they have overflow other than visible, baseline is calc as lower margin edge
16:10:05 [smfr]
should flex boxes do something similar?
16:10:26 [TabAtkins_]
16:10:33 [Zakim]
16:10:51 [smfr]
TabAtkins_: for non-visible overflow, sythensize baseline from border box of the flexbox
16:11:17 [smfr]
TabAtkins_: want to make sure it's stable based on whether there's an item or not. think that border box is most stable
16:11:29 [Zakim]
16:11:44 [smfr]
dbaron: mistake to change it at all based on whether there's overflow; authors are annoyed that overflow affects baselines
16:11:56 [smfr]
s/mistake/it was a mistake
16:12:02 [smfr]
TabAtkins_: i'm ok with that
16:12:21 [glazou]
leaverou: np
16:12:29 [glazou]
TabAtkins_: you speak too fast
16:12:44 [smfr]
TabAtkins_: proposal: do baseline calculation like normal, but if it's scrollable, treat it like it has its initial scroll position
16:13:13 [florianr]
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16:13:27 [glazou]
16:13:32 [smfr]
plinss: do we propose to change this just for flex box, or also inline-block
16:13:39 [smfr]
dbaron: no, not a proposal to change inline-block
16:13:55 [smfr]
TabAtkins_: we can make a final decision next week
16:14:02 [smfr]
dbaron: fine with me
16:14:23 [smfr]
Topic: CSS4 Images FPWD
16:14:28 [plinss]
16:15:01 [smfr]
TabAtkins_: CSS4 images ready for FPWD; still lots of issues but we can discuss them
16:15:30 [smfr]
smfr: would this be the first PWD of a CSS4 spec?
16:15:42 [smfr]
dbaron: no, we did selectors 4
16:15:48 [smfr]
smfr: ok, so this doesn't trigger anything special
16:16:20 [smfr]
plinss: this will trigger a call for exclusions, as a FPWD
16:16:32 [smfr]
no objections
16:16:42 [smfr]
RESOLVED: publish FPWD of CSS4 Images
16:16:58 [smfr]
Topic: at-risk counter styles
16:17:06 [smfr]
wait for jdagget next week
16:17:26 [smfr]
Topic: QuerySelector() with namespaces
16:17:30 [bradk]
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16:17:45 [smfr]
glazou: needed to query selectors with the selectors API with namespaces, not possible right now
16:17:53 [smfr]
glazou: Anne's draft doesn't have anything
16:18:06 [smfr]
glazou: should we resume that document inside the CSS WG, and work on this
16:18:19 [TabAtkins_] <-- current Selectors API draft
16:18:23 [smfr]
dbaron: there was a draft as part of the original querySelector draft. it had issues; mozilla had much of it implemented
16:18:31 [smfr]
dbaron: we should get a list of what those issues were
16:18:37 [bradk]
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16:18:53 [krit]
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16:18:57 [smfr]
glazou: questions: do we want to resurrect this spec in the CSS WG, and if so, how should we proceed
16:19:08 [smfr]
TabAtkins_: do we need to or raise the issues with Lachlan?
16:19:26 [smfr]
TabAtkins_: it was last touched in late June, so is active
16:19:30 [Zakim]
+ +1.415.832.aahh
16:19:40 [oyvind]
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16:19:50 [krit]
Zakim, aahh is me
16:19:50 [Zakim]
+krit; got it
16:19:56 [Zakim]
16:19:58 [hober]
Zakim, Apple is me
16:19:58 [Zakim]
+hober; got it
16:20:11 [smfr]
glazou: is it something we want to do?
16:20:15 [smfr]
TabAtkins_: i would not object
16:20:23 [dbaron]
... as long as they're not cumbersome
16:20:42 [smfr]
smfr: glazou, and you explain more?
16:20:56 [smfr]
glazou: need is in arbitrary XML documents, e.g. ePub
16:21:05 [bradk]
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16:21:08 [smfr]
glazou: it's a hole in that API, and hard to work around
16:21:45 [smfr]
glazou: really useful in XML
16:22:20 [smfr]
smfr: is there a risk of feature creep where a lot of different APIs would need to be namespace aware?
16:22:30 [smfr]
glazou: i don't think so, mainly the selectors API
16:22:32 [dbaron] was the last TR draft with NSResolver, but NSResolver had issues, if memory serves
16:22:46 [smfr]
glazou to raise the issue with Lachlan
16:22:58 [smfr]
Topic: CSS Masking
16:23:15 [smfr]
krit would like another editor for CSS Masking
16:23:21 [smfr]
TabAtkins_: I volunteer
16:23:50 [smfr]
left off last week with mask-clip
16:24:14 [smfr]
defer discussing mask-clip
16:24:41 [smfr]
Topic: FPWD of Intrinsic Sizing
16:25:17 [smfr]
fantasai: a couple of sections not written yet (tables, multi-col), but the draft should be coherent and we'd like to publish FPWD
16:25:46 [BradK_]
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16:25:55 [smfr]
RESOLVED: publish FPWD of Intrinsic Sizing level 3
16:26:02 [smfr]
Topic: CSS3 conditional
16:26:25 [smfr]
fantasai: CSS3 Conditional is ready to have another WD published
16:26:38 [smfr]
glazou: we have 2 different implementations?
16:26:47 [smfr]
fantasai: possibly 3 (prefixed one in IE)
16:26:53 [smfr]
plinss: how far from last call?
16:27:06 [smfr]
fantasai: WG needs to review this draft; next draft should be last call
16:27:17 [smfr]
plinss: any objections?
16:27:42 [smfr]
dbaron: no, but one comment. we had discussed having what's in CSS condition rule to be 2 separate interfaces
16:28:04 [smfr]
TabAtkins_: moving the grouping ?? up a level and having the condition rule inherit from that
16:28:44 [smfr]
fantasai: discussed at the F2F but didn't come up with final changes
16:29:28 [smfr]
TabAtkins_: in the CSS OM part, talking about splitting the CSSConditionRule
16:29:48 [smfr]
so we have a rule about @rules that contain other rules, then other rules that inherit from that
16:30:12 [plinss]
16:30:54 [smfr]
TabAtkins_: i support breaking this up
16:31:13 [smfr]
plinss: before we publish?
16:31:14 [smfr]
TabAtkins_: yes
16:31:22 [smfr]
TabAtkins_: gonna do it live!
16:31:28 [smfr]
plinss: any objections?
16:31:31 [dbaron]
I think CSSGroupRule would be the obvious name for the upper half
16:31:50 [smfr]
RESOLVED: TabAtkins_ to split CSSConditionRule
16:32:12 [smfr]
RESOLVED: publish WD of CSS3 conditional after TabAtkins_ makes the CSSConditionRule change
16:32:38 [smfr]
plinss: anyone working on a test suite for this?
16:32:48 [Zakim]
16:32:49 [smfr]
dbaron: mozilla and opera have both contributed a bunch of tests for @supports
16:32:53 [smfr]
plinss: we have almost 100 testes
16:33:00 [smfr]
16:33:42 [smfr]
Topic: Working Group Priorities
16:33:58 [smfr]
glazou: 4 years ago in San Diego, we started with a deep prioritization of the activities of the WG
16:34:20 [smfr]
glazou: now that CSS 2.1 is over, and we have so many documents under work, it is time to do the same again,
16:34:31 [smfr]
so make the specs advance at the right paces
16:34:36 [Zakim]
16:34:43 [smfr]
we have almost 30 documents; what are the right specs to work on Right Now?
16:35:00 [smfr]
glazou: it's the right time to discuss the priorities again
16:35:31 [smfr]
glazou: ideas: ping the browser vendors in the WG, in full confidentiality, and get info on their strategic focuses
16:35:52 [smfr]
plinss: also looking at interest in implementation
16:35:58 [smfr]
dbaron: i'd rather the discussion be public
16:36:15 [smfr]
glazou: i'd prefer that of course, but some members would like to keep it private
16:36:44 [TabAtkins_]
Edits to the Conditional spec done:
16:36:48 [smfr]
dbaron: would it be OK to ping everyone in private, including a question about whether it's OK to make the answers public
16:36:53 [smfr]
dbaron: that's fine
16:37:16 [smfr]
Molly: would also like to hear from the invited experts, as well as the vendors
16:37:36 [smfr]
glazou: yes, ping all the WG members, not just browser vendors
16:38:34 [smfr]
Molly: so there are 2 layers of prioritization; implementation by the vendors, and the rest of the WG
16:38:48 [smfr]
glazou: what really matters is the implementability of the specs
16:39:26 [smfr]
glazou: i will send email before next week; make sure those emails get to the right people
16:39:31 [florianr]
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16:39:32 [smfr]
give vendors 2 weeks to reply
16:40:05 [smfr]
plinss: data will be confidential, but the aggregated data will be public
16:40:38 [smfr]
krit: how is implementation defined?
16:40:47 [smfr]
plinss: how we normally do for getting a spec out of CR
16:41:08 [smfr]
plinss: any other topics to discuss?
16:42:01 [Zakim]
16:42:02 [smfr]
glazou: speaking of selectors 4, mozilla implemented :dir. Is it prefixed?
16:42:10 [smfr]
dbaron: it is not prefixed
16:42:24 [smfr]
glazou: do you plan to prefix ti?
16:42:27 [smfr]
16:42:36 [smfr]
dbaron: i can look into it
16:42:43 [Zakim]
16:43:12 [smfr]
glazou: selectors are a very visible part of CSS; if we have anything to change before CR that could cause problems
16:43:25 [smfr]
glazou: we have only light reviews by i18n people
16:44:16 [smfr]
fantasai: we could take only the UI stuff for level for, and leave the other stuff (e.g. column selectors) for level 5
16:44:41 [smfr]
glazou: we should give people time to review
16:45:12 [smfr]
plinss: other topics?
16:45:34 [arron_]
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16:45:39 [TabAtkins_]
16:45:40 [smfr]
glazou: TabAtkins_ published a "no such thing as CSS4 item on his blog". We should probably publish on the W3C blog under the WG's name
16:45:48 [fantasai]
16:46:19 [smfr]
glazou: TabAtkins_ can you rephrase to make it more official, and submit to the WG for review?
16:46:29 [smfr]
TabAtkins_: can try but want glazou to check it
16:47:37 [smfr]
leaverou: does everyone agree with the level naming here?
16:48:05 [smfr]
fantasai: maybe leaverou can suggest some language to TabAtkins_
16:48:40 [smfr]
dbaron: i think we're stuck because of the way we make short names of drafts (because that requires going to the director)
16:48:56 [smfr]
fantasai: we need to come up with a naming plan, and get batch approval
16:49:07 [dbaron]
I disagree with Tab's assertion that there is a CSS3.
16:49:18 [leaverou]
dbaron: That's exactly what I was saying
16:49:44 [smfr]
plinss: we should come up with a concrete list of short names changes
16:49:50 [smfr]
fantasai: i can set up a wiki page with proposals
16:50:17 [dbaron]
I'd think shortnames should be either css-selectors-4, css-text-3, etc., or css-selectors4, css-text3, etc.
16:50:41 [smfr]
plinss: we haven't published a snapshot since 2010; supposed to do one every year
16:50:49 [leaverou]
dbaron: +1
16:50:58 [dbaron]
dbaron: they were also supposed to be normative until the director changed them
16:50:59 [glazou]
dbaron: +1
16:51:00 [fantasai]
nothing's changed since 2012 wrt snapshots
16:51:13 [fantasai]
they'd need a new section on CR drafts not yet tested
16:51:20 [fantasai]
to require an update
16:51:25 [smfr]
discussion of the normative nature of the spec
16:51:37 [smfr]
plinss: let's get a 2012 snapshot published
16:51:46 [glazou]
bye BradK
16:51:54 [smfr]
TabAtkins_: we will do a 2012 snapshot near the end of the year
16:52:04 [Zakim]
16:52:29 [smfr]
SteveZ: can we list candidates for what will go into the 2012 snapshot
16:52:40 [smfr]
fantasai: we need a test suite for the snapshot
16:52:49 [smfr]
SteveZ: we need to drive some of those test suites
16:53:23 [smfr]
plinss: last time we talked about publishing multiple ones during the year; we don't necessarily have to wait
16:53:31 [smfr]
fantasai: there's nothing worth publishing at the moment
16:53:36 [Zakim]
16:53:57 [smfr]
plinss: we'll add a section to the wiki about renaming
16:54:05 [Zakim]
16:54:06 [smfr]
Meeting closed
16:54:08 [Molly]
16:54:09 [Zakim]
16:54:10 [Zakim]
16:54:10 [Zakim]
16:54:11 [Zakim]
16:54:11 [Zakim]
16:54:11 [Zakim]
16:54:13 [Zakim]
16:54:14 [Zakim]
16:54:15 [Zakim]
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16:54:20 [Zakim]
16:54:22 [Zakim]
16:54:24 [Zakim]
16:54:25 [Zakim]
16:54:27 [Zakim]
16:54:30 [Zakim]
16:54:32 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
16:54:33 [Zakim]
Attendees were +47.23.69.aaaa, +1.604.312.aabb, plinss, rbetts, glazou, Lea, lstorset, Molly_Holzschlag, +1.650.275.aacc, bradk, +1.206.390.aadd, stearns, +1.408.636.aaee, smfr,
16:54:37 [Zakim]
... SteveZ, fantasai, +1.415.766.aaff, dbaron, +1.650.253.aagg, TabAtkins_, koji, +1.415.832.aahh, krit, hober
16:58:17 [TabAtkins_]
Heh, that's fine.
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17:17:58 [oyvind]
having "CSS3" not be a thing seems better than having CSS [whatever] Level 4 be part of CSS3, that's just confusing
17:18:34 [nimbu]
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18:35:42 [fantasai]
TabAtkins_: you have the conditionalrules stuff all set to publish?
18:36:15 [nimbu]
fantasai: what should we do to make it no longer css3?
18:36:20 [nimbu]
i mean anything from w3c side?
18:36:41 [nimbu]
i am sure every browser vendor would be happy to write articles/posts/tweets to promote whatever change happens on w3c specs.
18:37:49 [fantasai]
we've done about as much as we can, aside from changing all the shortnames
18:37:59 [drublic]
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18:38:09 [fantasai]
nimbu: although improvements to the Snapshot wording are always welcome :)
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20:12:14 [nimbu]
fantasai: i think we should definitely change the shortnames no?
20:12:20 [nimbu]
i mean its the single biggest indication >_>
20:12:40 [nimbu]
like css3-content/
20:12:42 [nimbu]
and so on
20:12:50 [nimbu]
change it to css alone.
20:13:33 [leaverou]
or css-content-3
20:13:42 [nimbu]
o to indicate level?
20:13:48 [leaverou]
20:13:55 [nimbu]
idk i dont think it is critical.
20:13:58 [leaverou]
and have css-content redirect to the largest level available
20:14:00 [nimbu]
20:14:02 [nimbu]
20:14:04 [nimbu]
thats what we need.
20:14:07 [nimbu]
css-content on parent
20:14:11 [nimbu]
and levels maybe within?
20:14:17 [leaverou]
oh, even better!
20:14:18 [nimbu]
and parent redirects to highest level possible.
20:14:21 [leaverou]
if that's possible
20:14:24 [nimbu]
20:14:26 [nimbu]
plinss: ^^^
20:14:27 [leaverou]
not sure if nested hierarchies are possible
20:14:34 [nimbu]
no idea.
20:14:40 [nimbu]
20:14:43 [nimbu]
20:15:08 [nimbu]
or fantasai if fantasai has the sekrit keys to the
20:15:15 [nimbu]
i meann
20:15:27 [nimbu]
i assumed it was peter. or maybe it is Bert
20:15:52 [plinss]
nimbu: it's not so much about what's on, it's what's on that matters...
20:15:57 [leaverou]
nimbu: in the call it was mentioned that changes to shortnames need to be approved by the director
20:16:04 [leaverou]
if I heard it correctly at least
20:16:15 [plinss]
leaverou: correct
20:16:18 [nimbu]
plinss: o how can we change that.
20:16:24 [nimbu]
leaverou: o okay who is the director :)
20:16:28 [plinss]
we'll still need to leave redirects at the old URLs at the least
20:16:31 [leaverou]
Tim Berners-Lee
20:16:33 [nimbu]
ya definitely need.
20:16:34 [nimbu]
20:16:37 [nimbu]
20:16:44 [nimbu]
20:16:44 [leaverou]
20:16:51 [plinss]
Ralph generally fills that role at publishing telcons
20:16:58 [nimbu]
plinss: o who is ralph?
20:17:06 [nimbu]
leaverou: can you talk to this ralph person :)))
20:17:07 [leaverou]
nimbu: Ralph Swick
20:17:12 [nimbu]
20:17:28 [leaverou]
plinss: I assume you mean Ralph Swick, right?
20:17:38 [nimbu]
lasted tweeted 9th Feb :(
20:17:47 [plinss]
yes, the plan is to have a discussion with Ralph (and/or Tim) once we have a concrete list of the exact changes we want to make
20:17:54 [nimbu]
ah thats awesome.
20:17:58 [nimbu]
plinss: who is making that list.
20:18:00 [leaverou]
nimbu: I didn't even know Ralph tweeted :P
20:18:12 [nimbu]
i just did a handy twitter search leaverou :))
20:18:15 [plinss]
fantasai is supposed to be setting up a wiki page
20:18:23 [nimbu]
ah k.
20:19:03 [nimbu]
fantasai: would it be members-only wiki page?
20:19:05 [nimbu]
or anybody can edit.
20:20:04 [plinss]
I'd presume member only on that page
20:20:18 [nimbu]
ah k.
20:20:18 [leaverou_]
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20:20:25 [nimbu] seems to have very few names as css3
20:20:31 [nimbu]
and all using css3 seem dead or inactive.
20:20:33 [nimbu]
except for ruby
20:20:34 [plinss]
you're welcome to edit it...
20:20:39 [leaverou_]
what did I miss?
20:20:44 [leaverou_]
my connection dropped
20:20:46 [leaverou_]
20:21:05 [nimbu]
oh leaverou i was asking who can edit the wiki
20:22:05 [plinss]
leaverou: I have an IRC bouncer running on, would you like an account?
20:22:36 [leaverou]
sure, but what's an IRC bouncer? (my ignorance on IRC stuff is showing)
20:23:24 [plinss]
it connectes to as you, then you connect your irc client to it
20:23:44 [leaverou]
like a proxy?
20:23:49 [plinss]
the advantage is that if you drop off, it stays connected, when you re-connect it plays back what happened while you were gone
20:23:58 [leaverou]
oh that's awesome!
20:24:12 [plinss]
you can also connect multiple clients and only sees one, but all your clients get all the messages
20:24:26 [plinss]
and it does push notifications to iPhones if your nick is mentioned
20:24:27 [paul_irish]
leaverou: i use .. it's fantastic.
20:24:39 [leaverou]
plinss: wow, that sounds great!
20:24:46 [plinss]
paul_irish: that's what's on
20:25:03 [nimbu]
plinss: it seems to be /TR/ doesnt actually show anything with css3 prefix that is active.
20:25:10 [nimbu]
plinss: otoh the shortnames are all very css3 tho.
20:26:14 [paul_irish]
plinss: that rocks. :)
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20:52:24 [plinss]
nimbu: pretty much everything listed on needs the short name changed...
20:54:26 [nimbu]
plinss: ya thats whatt not the names themselves.
20:54:35 [nimbu]
i suppose this would mean it would also change on then
20:54:53 [plinss]
20:54:59 [nimbu]
so would fantasai be making a wiki page of all the short names that needs to be changed?
20:55:04 [plinss]
after /tr is changed
20:55:13 [nimbu]
20:55:19 [nimbu]
20:55:27 [plinss]
I think she's just going to setup the page, it's up to everyone to fill it in
20:55:49 [nimbu]
o okay.
20:55:57 [nimbu]
i will be happy to add asap.
21:25:12 [nimbu]
hi fantasai!!!
21:25:42 [fantasai]
hi nimbu!
21:28:13 [nimbu]
fantasai: plinss was saying you were gonna create that page so we can kill css3 forever.
21:28:19 [fantasai]
umm, yeah
21:28:22 [nimbu]
with the benevolent approval of TimBL
21:28:26 [nimbu]
21:28:29 [fantasai]
working on it
21:28:31 [fantasai]
21:28:50 [nimbu]
k can do.
21:28:54 [nimbu]
also i will be at TPACCC
21:28:57 [nimbu]
21:29:52 [fantasai]
okay :)
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