14:59:13 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
14:59:13 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/08/30-html-a11y-irc
14:59:15 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:59:15 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #html-a11y
14:59:17 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2119
14:59:17 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM scheduled to start 59 minutes ago
14:59:18 <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:59:18 <trackbot> Date: 30 August 2012
14:59:25 <janina> zakim, who's on the phone?
14:59:25 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM has not yet started, janina
14:59:26 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, janina, JF, MichaelC, MikeSmith, trackbot, [tm]
14:59:37 <MikeSmith> zakim, call Mike
14:59:39 <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
14:59:52 <paulc> paulc has joined #html-a11y
14:59:55 <janina> zakim, this will be WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)
14:59:55 <Zakim> ok, janina, I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM already started
15:00:04 <janina> zakim, who's on the phone?
15:00:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see John_Foliot, ??P3, Mike
15:00:13 <janina> zakim, ??P3 is Janina
15:00:13 <Zakim> +Janina; got it
15:00:44 <hober> hober has joined #html-a11y
15:00:50 <Zakim> +[Apple]
15:00:57 <hober> Zakim, Apple has me
15:00:57 <Zakim> +hober; got it
15:01:42 <MikeSmith> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012Aug/0273.html
15:01:43 <plh> plh has joined #html-a11y
15:01:44 <Judy> Judy has joined #html-a11y
15:01:53 <Zakim> +Plh
15:02:06 <MikeSmith> zakim, clear agenda
15:02:06 <Zakim> agenda cleared
15:02:11 <MikeSmith> agenda+	Issue-30 Reconsideration: Going Forward                                                                                                             
15:02:11 <MikeSmith> agenda+	Issue 204 PFWG's Formal Objection: Status and Updates http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012Aug/0256.html                                                                              
15:02:13 <MikeSmith> agenda+	Text subteam report (if needed)
15:02:14 <MikeSmith> agenda+	Issue-206 (alt exemption for generators), status
15:02:16 <MikeSmith> agenda+	Issue-31b (guidance on alt text in the HTML5 spec)
15:02:17 <MikeSmith> agenda+	Responsive images
15:02:18 <MikeSmith> agenda+	TPAC registration - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Jul/0244.html
15:02:19 <MikeSmith> agenda+	Other Business
15:02:20 <MikeSmith> agenda+	Identify Scribe for the next TF teleconference http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List
15:02:23 <Zakim> +Judy
15:03:51 <Zakim> +Cooper
15:03:52 <Judy> zakim, who's here?
15:03:52 <Zakim> On the phone I see John_Foliot, Janina, Mike, [Apple], Plh, Judy, Cooper (muted)
15:03:54 <Zakim> [Apple] has hober
15:03:54 <Zakim> On IRC I see Judy, plh, hober, paulc, Zakim, RRSAgent, janina, JF, MichaelC, MikeSmith, trackbot, [tm]
15:04:06 <janina> scribe: janina
15:04:08 <LeonieWatson> LeonieWatson has joined #html-a11y
15:04:22 <janina> regrets: rich, leonie, laura
15:04:28 <janina> regrets: steve
15:05:19 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #html-a11y
15:05:36 <Zakim> -Judy
15:05:56 <Judy> redialing
15:06:09 <paulc> zakim, what is the code?
15:06:09 <Zakim> the conference code is 2119 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), paulc
15:06:17 <Zakim> +Judy
15:06:26 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
15:06:45 <richardschwerdtfe> richardschwerdtfe has joined #html-a11y
15:06:47 <paulc> zakim, [Microsoft] has paulc
15:06:47 <Zakim> +paulc; got it
15:06:53 <paulc> Staying on mute.
15:07:10 <Zakim> +James_Craig
15:07:21 <janina> jb: Text met Tuesday as usual, used time as a work session on I-30 primarily
15:07:38 <jcraig> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:07:38 <Zakim> On the phone I see John_Foliot, Janina, Mike, [Apple], Plh, Cooper, Judy, [Microsoft], James_Craig
15:07:40 <Zakim> [Microsoft] has paulc
15:07:40 <Zakim> [Apple] has hober
15:07:51 <janina> jb: Primary focus is to update the presentation of the extensive evidence in InstateLongdesc
15:07:53 <Zakim> +Rich
15:08:25 <janina> jb: To provide a clear summary, top level read, for which the various links then provide detail
15:08:53 <janina> jb: Also the concern that the I-204 objection is clouding clear consideration of I-30
15:09:34 <MikeSmith> q?
15:09:44 <janina> jb: One piece still missing is some kind of statement clarifying current disupte on 204, or what the resolution is
15:10:14 <Judy> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/InstateLongdesc
15:10:14 <Judy> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/Talk:ChangeProposals/InstateLongdesc
15:12:09 <janina> jb: Just heard fromLaura who wants to know there's TF approval before she moves the staged presentation to the CP
15:13:53 <janina> jb: The cloud relates to the discussion of the last year that suggests ARIA-DescribedBy might be an appropriate mechanism for long textual description, meanwhile the I-204 status, and the language of Sec. 7.1 is still in doubt fecause of the formal objection
15:14:20 <Judy> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:14:20 <Zakim> On the phone I see John_Foliot, Janina, Mike, [Apple], Plh, Cooper, Judy, [Microsoft], James_Craig, Rich
15:14:22 <Zakim> [Microsoft] has paulc
15:14:22 <Zakim> [Apple] has hober
15:15:20 <MikeSmith> q?
15:16:55 <janina> rich: Asking what it is that's missing about DescribedBy
15:17:12 <jcraig> q+
15:17:32 <janina> jb: A statement of the resolution of the I204 dispute and the impact for whether how that relates to the I30 reconsideration
15:17:50 <MikeSmith> ack jcraig 
15:18:30 <janina> james: I was away last week, but have tried to get to the bottom of the FO since returning
15:19:14 <JF> Q+
15:19:26 <hober> I've captured these two issues in HTML5 spec bugs: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18744 (update the wording to not be specific to wai-aria) and https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18745 (update the wording to not imply that hidden="" elements would show up in the ax tree)
15:19:28 <Judy> q+
15:19:40 <MikeSmith> ack Judy 
15:19:44 <janina> jb: Responding procedurally ...
15:19:44 <richardschwerdtfe> q+
15:19:50 <janina> jb: Understand you were away
15:21:09 <janina> jb: Request that we keep to agenda order to be efficient on this call.
15:22:20 <janina> james: Has asked whether issue of FO was about making hidden content visible via AT
15:22:44 <janina> jf: In fact, yes, but not the only question
15:23:03 <janina> rich: q+
15:23:06 <Judy> q+
15:23:11 <janina> q+
15:23:12 <JF> ack JF
15:23:12 <MikeSmith> ack richardschwerdtfe 
15:23:13 <plh> ack JF
15:23:16 <MikeSmith> q?
15:23:41 <janina> rich: I'm concerned that existing 7.1 text selectively displays content author had specified to be hidden
15:24:05 <janina> rich: It would significantly break the UI appearance of IBM's existing products
15:24:21 <MikeSmith> ack Judy 
15:25:07 <JF> +1 to adopting revised text
15:25:16 <janina> jb: Asking for any comments to the new InstateLongdesc wrapper text, or any objections to it?
15:25:21 <jcraig> rich, there are ways to "display" things without breaking the main UI, but I will wait to respond tip we get to that topic
15:26:00 <janina> jb: Want to note again the intent to add just a bit more relating to I204 status and implication
15:26:18 <Judy> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/InstateLongdesc
15:26:18 <Judy> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/Talk:ChangeProposals/InstateLongdesc
15:29:28 <MikeSmith> q?
15:29:35 <janina> q-
15:32:32 <janina> mike: uncertain whether we have qurom for a resolution?
15:33:03 <janina> jb: Also sensitive time issues here with the HTML Chairs requesting stableCP text by today
15:33:31 <janina> jb: Are there objections to adding the summary wrapper text to InstateLongdesc?
15:33:37 <janina> Mike: There seem to be no objections
15:33:52 <janina> zakim, next item
15:33:52 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Issue-30 Reconsideration: Going Forward" taken up [from MikeSmith]
15:34:02 <janina> zakim, close item 12
15:34:02 <Zakim> I only see 9 items on the agenda
15:34:06 <janina> zakim, close item 1
15:34:06 <Zakim> agendum 1, Issue-30 Reconsideration: Going Forward, closed
15:34:07 <Zakim> I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:34:07 <Zakim> 2. Issue 204 PFWG's Formal Objection: Status and Updates http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012Aug/0256.html [from MikeSmith]
15:34:12 <janina> zakim, next item
15:34:12 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Issue 204 PFWG's Formal Objection: Status and Updates http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012Aug/0256.html" taken up [from MikeSmith]
15:34:16 <janina> q+
15:34:29 <MikeSmith> ack janina 
15:35:05 <jcraig> s/FO since returning/FO since returning. I see two issues: 1) jurisdiction of HTML vs PF WG wrt to speccing ARIA implementation, and 2) wording that implies exposing description at all times (fixing this may be an editorial change)
15:36:00 <jcraig> q+
15:38:56 <janina> js: Will note that PF was not at full force last week, however there was significant PF participation in the FO and it was unanimous among those present, so consensus is a reasonable understanding
15:38:56 <MikeSmith> -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18745 "Reword text adopted by ISSUE-204 to avoid certain implications"
15:39:10 <jcraig> ack me
15:39:18 <janina> js: In addition, we should note two terms of great problem in the adopted language, "encourage" and "such as"
15:39:42 <janina> js: This is not established technology, but experimental
15:40:15 <janina> james: Want to acknowledge agreement that the particular wording adopted could potentially break current implementations
15:40:27 <MikeSmith> -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18744 "drop WAI-ARIA scope restriction in the text adopted in ISSUE-204"
15:40:41 <janina> james: Have been discussing potential wording changes with Ted, whose proposal this is
15:41:17 <janina> james: Some APIs allow semantics marked hidden, but not all
15:41:19 <JF> Q+
15:42:05 <janina> james: Despite the wording there ws never intention to throw this into DOM
15:42:10 <jcraig> Where accessibility APIs allow nodes to be marked as hidden, User Agents are encouraged to expose the full semantics of hidden="" elements when they are referenced via relationship attributes (such as aria-describedby in WAI-ARIA). This allows Assistive Technologies to access the content structure upon user request, while keeping the content hidden in all presentations of the normal document flow.
15:43:07 <janina> q+
15:43:47 <hober> q+
15:43:51 <richardschwerdtfe> q+
15:44:26 <MikeSmith> ack JF 
15:44:51 <janina> jf: Seems to access this additional info reques user has AT.
15:45:16 <janina> jf: Much HTML-WG discussion exposed a long text description requirement for users without AT
15:45:19 <jcraig> q+ can  jump the queue to respond to john?
15:45:41 <MikeSmith> ack jcraig 
15:45:52 <janina> james: You are correct that it relies on AT as written, we could change that
15:46:39 <janina> jf: This seems half-baked to me. We have no knowledge of this manifests, yet it's in the spec as what we will do
15:46:45 <MikeSmith> q?
15:48:00 <janina> jf: Just to clarify, we're talking about the hidden attrib, a boulian attrib
15:48:12 <janina> jf: That means a switch option somewhere
15:48:35 <paulc> rssagent, generate minutes
15:49:03 <MikeSmith> ack janina 
15:49:21 <paulc> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:49:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/08/30-html-a11y-minutes.html paulc
15:50:24 <MikeSmith> q?
15:50:31 <MikeSmith> ask hober 
15:50:42 <JF> ack hober
15:50:47 <jcraig> s/boulian/boolean/
15:51:32 <janina> js: This redratf, plus the discussion that followed in this meeting to change even more of the language offered above, makesPF's case that this proposal is inappropriate for a cross platform standard
15:51:57 <JF> s/redratf/redraft/
15:52:34 <Judy> q?
15:52:40 <janina> ted: Intent was not to insert formally hidden text into a visible DOM, we need to fix that
15:52:55 <janina> ted: Intent not to say antyhing specific of ARIA
15:53:20 <hober> <label for>, <td headers>
15:53:47 <Judy> q+
15:53:50 <janina> ted: header attrib on table, for on label, examples of ...
15:54:03 <janina> ted: Would be unusual not sure we want expansive language
15:55:01 <janina> ted: So by process of elimination, I think only DescribedBy and LabeledBy
15:55:32 <MikeSmith> ack richardschwerdtfe 
15:56:05 <janina> rich: One design pattern requres tab reference aria-controls, if hidden, this encourages visible
15:56:35 <janina> rich: All browsers today, hidden descripts are not mapped to AAPIs, because author wants them hidden
15:56:50 <MikeSmith> q?
15:56:58 <janina> rich: All AAPIs map hidden descript to strng
15:57:26 <janina> Ted: Exposing the full semantics was not intended to mean exposing to the browser
15:57:45 <janina> Ted: We don't want to constrain AAPIx from improving in the future
15:58:16 <janina> Rich: If you want a function like this, define a different attribute that does what you want, but don't redefine an existing attribute that's used today differently
15:58:39 <jcraig> q+ to say, this is how Mozilla exposes describedby today
15:58:58 <MikeSmith> ack Judy 
15:59:07 <janina> rich: If you want a function like this, let's create one in ARIA 1.1 and lets define it appropriately
15:59:48 <janina> jb: Want to summarize that there has been agreement here that language as was approved is not right, and there will be follow up discussion
15:59:57 <paulc> q+
16:00:06 <janina> ted: Trying to improve the wording that was there
16:00:24 <janina> jb: And hearing more discussion on how new wording would be a problem, so discussion needs to continue
16:00:35 <janina> jb: ARIA TF is the appropriate place for that
16:00:38 <MikeSmith> q?
16:00:50 <paulc> There is a queue.
16:01:13 <MikeSmith> ack jcraig 
16:01:13 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to say, this is how Mozilla exposes describedby today
16:01:16 <paulc> The locations for joint PF and HTML WG discussion is THIS TF not PF.
16:01:26 <janina> q+
16:01:49 <janina> james: Want to point out that this is how Mozilla exposes content this way today
16:02:27 <janina> james: The point is to expose semantics when available and appropriate--not to limit future implementations
16:02:36 <janina> james: won't work off the bat today
16:02:37 <Zakim> -[Apple]
16:02:47 <janina> james: is possible in some today
16:03:01 <janina> q?
16:03:01 <MikeSmith> ack paulc 
16:03:27 <laura> laura has joined #html-a11y
16:03:37 <janina> paul: Wants to point out that correct place to discuss HTML bugs with a11y is this TF, not ARIA
16:03:46 <janina> jb: ARIA design is in the scope of PF
16:04:16 <MikeSmith> q?
16:04:17 <jcraig> this is an HTML decision about HTML attributes
16:04:28 <jcraig> that includes aria attributes
16:04:54 <JF> Janina: wondering where the fire is here? Why do we need to rush forward on this?
16:05:05 <Zakim> -James_Craig
16:05:07 <jcraig> jcraig has left #html-a11y
16:06:23 <janina> janina: Suggest it's inaccurate to suggest this needs resolution now in HTML 5 but at the same time say it's not about longdesc
16:06:41 <Judy> q+
16:06:49 <MikeSmith> ack janina 
16:06:52 <MikeSmith> ack Judy 
16:07:14 <janina> mike: Seems more discussion is needed
16:07:34 <janina> jb: But a decision has been made and objected to, 
16:07:56 <janina> mike: We can try to see if we can get agreement to see if the spec can continue without objection on this
16:08:23 <janina> mike: Text on the table for refining the language seems what we can discuss
16:08:50 <janina> rich: If it means this discussion redefines ARIA spec, I oppose it
16:09:00 <janina> rich: If it's something new, then it needs to be don in 1.1
16:09:32 <Zakim> -Rich
16:09:37 <MikeSmith> q?
16:09:43 <janina> mike: Anything else urgent for today?
16:09:50 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
16:09:54 <Zakim> -Plh
16:09:59 <janina> Mike: Janina will chair next week?
16:10:00 <janina> janina: yes
16:10:06 <janina> mike: scribe for next week?
16:10:09 <Zakim> -Mike
16:10:09 <janina> [silence]
16:10:10 <Zakim> -Judy
16:10:12 <Zakim> -John_Foliot
16:10:13 <Zakim> -Cooper
16:10:19 <Zakim> -Janina
16:10:21 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM has ended
16:10:21 <Zakim> Attendees were John_Foliot, Mike, Janina, hober, Plh, Judy, Cooper, paulc, James_Craig, Rich
16:10:46 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:10:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/08/30-html-a11y-minutes.html MikeSmith
16:11:28 <janina> zakim, bye
16:11:28 <Zakim> Zakim has left #html-a11y
16:11:33 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
16:11:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/08/30-html-a11y-minutes.html janina
16:37:34 <plh> plh has left #html-a11y
17:49:54 <richardschwerdtfe> richardschwerdtfe has left #html-a11y