20:57:26 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #svg
20:57:26 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/08/23-svg-irc
20:57:28 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
20:57:28 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #svg
20:57:30 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
20:57:30 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG(SVG1)5:00PM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
20:57:31 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
20:57:31 <trackbot> Date: 23 August 2012
20:57:38 <ed> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012JulSep/0167.html
20:58:20 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG(SVG1)5:00PM has now started
20:58:27 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
20:58:32 <Kelvin> Kelvin has joined #svg
21:00:09 <Zakim> +??P1
21:00:11 <heycam> Zakim, ??P1 is me
21:00:11 <Zakim> +heycam; got it
21:00:39 <Zakim> +Kelvin
21:01:05 <Zakim> +Rich
21:01:20 <richardschwerdtfe> richardschwerdtfe has joined #svg
21:01:49 <Zakim> +??P8
21:01:57 <Zakim> +??P7
21:02:09 <cabanier> zakim, ??P8 is me
21:02:09 <Zakim> +cabanier; got it
21:02:37 <nikos> nikos has joined #svg
21:02:45 <Zakim> -??P7
21:03:28 <richardschwerdtfe> agenda?
21:04:24 <richardschwerdtfe> richardschwerdtfe has left #svg
21:04:34 <richardschwerdtfe> richardschwerdtfe has joined #svg
21:05:03 <heycam> Zakim, who is on the call?
21:05:03 <Zakim> On the phone I see Doug_Schepers, heycam, Kelvin, Rich, cabanier
21:05:39 <Zakim> +Tav
21:06:36 <Zakim> +??P5
21:06:45 <ed> Zakim, ??P5 is me
21:06:45 <Zakim> +ed; got it
21:06:57 <ed> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012JulSep/0167.html
21:08:40 <cabanier> scribenick: cabanier
21:08:55 <cabanier> topic: SVG2 status
21:09:27 <cabanier> heycam: we were planning on publishing last tuesday but there were some issue
21:10:08 <cabanier> heycam: we tried again on thursday but we had some issues with Chris' color changes. I waiting to hear back from him and we'll probably publish on tuesday
21:10:25 <cabanier> heycam: because we have inline svg and we have mathml
21:10:46 <cabanier> heycam: we needed to change the format of the doc to HTML5 which took a bit of time
21:10:59 <cabanier> cabanier: so we're using mathml?
21:11:24 <cabanier> heycam: I converted a couple of formulas of the painting formulas and some of of the path stuff
21:11:34 <Zakim> +??P6
21:11:35 <cabanier> heycam: I'm using  mathjax
21:11:41 <nikos> Zakim, P6 is me
21:11:41 <Zakim> sorry, nikos, I do not recognize a party named 'P6'
21:11:47 <nikos> Zakim, ??P6 is me
21:11:47 <Zakim> +nikos; got it
21:11:52 <Zakim> +??P7
21:12:02 <cabanier> heycam: to provide fallback. 
21:12:22 <birtles> Zakim, ??P7 is me
21:12:22 <Zakim> +birtles; got it
21:12:33 <cabanier> heycam: and around 6 months ago it was decided that mathml was OK 
21:13:23 <cabanier> heycam: are you having trouble?
21:13:34 <cabanier> tav: I tried it today and it took me around 20 min
21:13:51 <cabanier> heycam: let me know if you have issues and I'll help you
21:14:08 <cabanier> topic: Lucerne F2F reminder
21:14:16 <ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Switzerland_2012
21:14:34 <ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Switzerland_2012/Agenda_proposals
21:14:45 <cabanier> ed: there's a page for attending and for proposals
21:14:57 <cabanier> heycam: I think only cyril hasn't replied
21:15:26 <cabanier> topic: SVG Accessibility Gap Analysis
21:15:28 <ed> http://www.w3.org/mid/OF38278C69.E13ACB0C-ON86257A5E.006A2B07-86257A5E.006B7B8B@us.ibm.com
21:16:01 <richardschwerdtfe> Rich
21:17:11 <cabanier> heycam: can I reformat it as text and send it to the list
21:17:15 <cabanier> rich: sure
21:17:28 <cabanier> doug: that will make it easier to search the archives
21:17:55 <heycam> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012Aug/0105.html
21:18:16 <cabanier> rich: the first part is just about the technology of what happens in the browser
21:18:31 <cabanier> rich: looking at SVG, we have the gap analysis
21:19:23 <shepazu> (it might be useful to also look at this http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-html-aapi-20110414/ )
21:19:34 <cabanier> rich: the reason for the rule attribute is to give the system information
21:19:48 <ed> s/rule/role/
21:20:20 <cabanier> (rich: going over the reason we need accessibility in SVG) 
21:20:31 <cabanier> rich: we have no keyboard navigation
21:20:51 <cabanier> rich: the structure of SVG doesn't map to platform accessibility
21:21:07 <cabanier> rich: the grouping element can be repurposed for that reason
21:21:25 <cabanier> rich: you can assign semantics to it
21:21:48 <cabanier> rich: the first svg document alludes that we can do this with the <g> element
21:22:37 <cabanier> rich: svg rendering don't follow system settings such as high contrast
21:23:05 <cabanier> rich: does high contrast tie in with the developers?
21:23:18 <heycam> I wonder whether the CSS system colour keywords in conjunction with default colours is sufficient for high constrast support.
21:23:21 <cabanier> rich: panning and zooming inside of a SVG rendering is important too
21:23:31 <cabanier> rich: do we do something with animations
21:23:42 <cabanier> rich: we heard that they are being removed?
21:23:55 <cabanier> heycam: no. Brian is working on something new
21:24:18 <cabanier> rich: we want to look into how to make these accessibility
21:24:36 <cabanier> rich: we should introduce 'role' on elements
21:25:24 <cabanier> rich: the role attribute on safari and webkit on svg is mapped to the accessibility API
21:25:44 <cabanier> rich: we could develop more states to ARIA and apply them to SVG
21:26:05 <cabanier> rich: MS and ??? would like tabindex applied to SVG so you can have keyboard navigation
21:26:42 <cabanier> rich: do we want to provide the ability to zoom into content that is not visible
21:27:04 <cabanier> doug: what is the behavior of fragment id with zooming and panning?
21:27:30 <cabanier> doug: the user might not want to zoom in on the bounding box.
21:28:11 <cabanier> doug: we've talked about the idea of adding tab index to SVG but SVG already has one that is better
21:28:13 <ed> an example of tabbing between nodes in an svg, with panning: http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.2T/test/svg/interact-focus-203-t.svg
21:28:16 <ed> works in opera
21:28:18 <cabanier> rich: so you want both models?
21:28:23 <cabanier> doug: yeah
21:28:33 <ed> (testcase is from the SVG 1.2T testsuite)
21:28:38 <cabanier> rich: that sounds fine. I have to look into again
21:28:54 <cabanier> rich: but there doesn't seem opposition to adding tab index
21:29:23 <cabanier> heycam: yes, we should have keyboard navigation. Even outside the accessibility use case
21:31:20 <cabanier> ed: do we just want tab behavior or 4/8 way navigation too?
21:31:35 <cabanier> ed: I'd prefer that whatever we had in tiny keeps working
21:31:45 <cabanier> heycam: we should look into the model
21:32:09 <cabanier> ed: yes, it should be possible to make it work. It makes sense to have it in SVG if it works in HTML
21:32:24 <cabanier> heycam: weren't they going to be added to CSS?
21:32:53 <cabanier> doug: tantek decided not to add the navigation keyword to CSS UI 3 but I don't know why
21:33:26 <cabanier> doug: tab index is not sufficient for a lot of scenarios. We would have to define how those work together
21:33:52 <cabanier> doug: for arrow key navigation, the keyword are: up/right/etc
21:34:09 <cabanier> doug: those are directional navigation elements
21:34:19 <heycam> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Commitments -- see items 97, 98, 99 -- that covers the navigation properties and HTML's tabindex
21:35:09 <cabanier> doug: you need an algorihtmic way to find out what 'up' means 
21:35:39 <cabanier> heycam: item 99 is similar to tabindex, 97 covers nav
21:35:50 <cabanier> rich: so it's resolved to do this feature?
21:35:54 <cabanier> heycam: yes
21:36:03 <cabanier> rich: who is going to do the spec work?
21:36:20 <cabanier> heycam: nobody has signed up for it 
21:36:36 <shepazu> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGTiny12/interact.html#specifyingnavigation
21:36:52 <cabanier> doug: here's what we have so far
21:37:19 <cabanier> doug: the only conflict is nav-next and nav-prev
21:37:46 <cabanier> doug: I will take a look if there's a conflict with tab index. It's an interest of mine
21:38:18 <cabanier> action: shepazu is going to look into conflicts between the model of tab index and navigation
21:38:18 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3341 - Is going to look into conflicts between the model of tab index and navigation [on Doug Schepers - due 2012-08-30].
21:39:01 <cabanier> doug: I see they're attributes but not properties. We need to talk to the CSS people about that
21:39:28 <cabanier> rich: I''m willing to take an action for the aria and the role attribute
21:39:37 <shepazu> q+ to discuss system colors
21:39:41 <cabanier> heycam: we already have role in tiny
21:39:44 <ed> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGTiny12/struct.html#RoleAttribute
21:40:48 <cabanier> tav: please provide examples because I tried to do it in the past and there's no documentation out there
21:40:53 <cabanier> doug: I have some!
21:41:00 <cabanier> tav: those are the only ones...
21:42:39 <cabanier> doug: I dropped in a document. This contains a table that has all the ally api's 
21:42:52 <cabanier> doug: I found it really useful
21:43:13 <cabanier> rich: yes, everyone needs to understand what we're doing
21:43:13 <shepazu> q?
21:44:06 <cabanier> resolution: define Role and ARIA states and property attributes in SVG
21:44:26 <cabanier> doug: we want to do the same as HTML did it
21:46:41 <cabanier> rich: we feel that the industry hasn't done enough for accessibility
21:46:56 <cabanier> rich: with flash going away, we want to look into SVG
21:47:13 <cabanier> heycam: what did flash do?
21:47:44 <cabanier> rich: it doesn't deal with table structure. You can have a group or a panel. The evens are hardcoded to the windows platform
21:47:50 <shepazu> example of SVG table with ARIA http://schepers.cc/svg/accessibility/table.svg
21:48:00 <cabanier> rich: it has no knowledge about rich text. 
21:48:13 <cabanier> rich: they don't have structure content
21:48:46 <cabanier> rich: it was not that great and Adobe is not investigating it any more
21:49:32 <cabanier> rich: limited windows support. They wanted to add richer accessibility support but it's not happening
21:50:32 <shepazu> ack shepazu 
21:50:32 <Zakim> shepazu, you wanted to discuss system colors
21:50:49 <cabanier> doug: what did you mean with system colors?
21:51:06 <cabanier> rich: desktop applications can respond to going to high contrast mode
21:51:13 <shepazu> CSS 3 system colors deprecated  http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-color/#css-system
21:51:41 <cabanier> rich: we could add an API for that so the application is notified
21:52:04 <cabanier> doug: I think there's an opportunity for doing this in CSS
21:52:14 <cabanier> doug: like with a media query
21:52:38 <cabanier> doug: not just for ally, but various lighting conditions
21:53:19 <cabanier> doug: or for people that are color blind
21:53:38 <cabanier> doug: using media queries we can have the document be styled differently
21:54:39 <birtles> CSS luminance media queries http://fremycompany.com/BG/2012/Ambient-light-sensors-and-CSS-Media-Queries-971/ (doesn't support the red-green red-blue thing though)
21:54:41 <cabanier> doug: then designers can provide an alternate representation 
21:54:52 <cabanier> tav: do you think designers will do this?
21:55:13 <cabanier> doug: I think there will be aftermarket people will do this redesigns
21:55:40 <cabanier> doug: designers don't want to do the high contrast page because it doesn't look good
21:56:11 <cabanier> ed: I like Brian's doc
21:56:24 <cabanier> rich: we should go to the CSS WG for the media queries?
21:56:28 <cabanier> all: yes
21:58:13 <cabanier> action: richardschwerdtfe to write up a proposal for role and aria states and properties integration
21:58:14 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3342 - Write up a proposal for role and aria states and properties integration [on Richard Schwerdtfeger - due 2012-08-30].
21:58:42 <cabanier> rich: panning and zooming is something that Kelvin wants
21:58:53 <cabanier> rich: it would be nice to pan and zoom portions
21:59:02 <cabanier> rich: of an SVG document
21:59:24 <cabanier> kelvin: you could describe a rectangle to do pan and zoom
22:00:06 <cabanier> kelvin: it's not an SVG thing. I'm not sure how the WG can influence this. The Adobe viewer had 
22:00:31 <cabanier> ed: it's supported in some other viewers. Not sure if it's well documented
22:00:41 <cabanier> rich: can we put this in the spec?
22:01:03 <cabanier> heycam: it's still in the spec but it hasn't gotten widespread implementation
22:01:12 <ed> s/ well documented/ well documented in the respective UA's docs how it works/
22:02:08 <cabanier> doug: in the past people wanted to limit the scope that we can influence the UI
22:02:12 <ed> s/it's supported in some other viewers/ctrl+dragging inside an svg for panning, alt+click / shift+alt+click for zooming in and out is supported in some other viewers/
22:02:14 <Zakim> -birtles
22:02:34 <cabanier> doug: Opera has the zoom slider
22:02:52 <thorton> thorton has joined #svg
22:02:58 <cabanier> doug: we can try to say that they need to implement some sort of zoom and pan
22:03:12 <thorton> thorton has joined #svg
22:04:06 <cabanier> kelvin: with accessibility we can say that we need it which might force them to add it
22:04:21 <cabanier> rich: should we strengthen the language?
22:05:14 <cabanier> doug: Kelvin, would you want to write up what we need from pan and zoom? so we can feedback from browser vendors
22:05:29 <cabanier> kelvin: yes, I will reread the spec and write something up
22:05:55 <cabanier> action: kelvin to write requirement for zoom and pan for accessibility
22:05:55 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3343 - Write requirement for zoom and pan for accessibility [on Kelvin Lawrence - due 2012-08-30].
22:06:16 <cabanier> topic: CSS4 <image> as value for <paint>
22:06:23 <ed> http://www.w3.org/mid/FBBDBDBC-F3CD-404E-AFC1-0369A75DAA89@adobe.com
22:06:57 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
22:07:09 <cabanier> ed: why was this for css4 images and not 3?
22:07:30 <cabanier> cabanier: isn't 3 already in LC? Tab is working on version 4
22:07:55 <cabanier> heycam: so, the element() is in CSS4
22:08:10 <cabanier> cabanier: maybe put it on the agenda again next week
22:08:25 <ed> ed: css3-images is in CR
22:08:44 <cabanier> cabanier: wasn't there also a decision to push off element()
22:09:11 <cabanier> cabanier: maybe it was the one that referred to other html chunk
22:09:26 <cabanier> ed: we
22:09:38 <cabanier> ed: we'll put it on the topic next week
22:09:51 <cabanier> topic: <color-profile> element
22:09:57 <cabanier> ed: chris isn't here
22:10:18 <ed> s/the topic next/the agenda for next/
22:10:35 <cabanier> heycam: we already decided to remove the font element
22:11:04 <cabanier> heycam: there is no advantage to be able to specify as an element as well as a CSS @ rule
22:11:12 <cabanier> cabanier: that sounds reasonable
22:11:20 <cabanier> heycam: and it wasn't widely implemented
22:11:37 <cabanier> ed: is this tagging the image with a profile?
22:11:41 <ed> https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/color.html#ColorProfileElement
22:12:18 <cabanier> cabanier: it's there so you can give it a link to an ICC profile and give it a name
22:14:00 <cabanier> heycam: and then you can reference the name of the color profile in the paint
22:14:34 <cabanier> heycam: it makes sense just to have the @ rule
22:15:14 <cabanier> ed: I can't think of a reason to have it
22:16:36 <cabanier> heycam: it's just as easy to get to an @ rule through the DOM
22:17:00 <cabanier> resolution: remove the <color-profile> element from the spec
22:18:01 <cabanier> action: heycam to remove <color-profile> element from the spec
22:18:02 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3344 - Remove <color-profile> element from the spec [on Cameron McCormack - due 2012-08-30].
22:18:23 <cabanier> ed: any other topics?
22:18:47 <cabanier> heycam: there are some things on the mailing list but we can do that later
22:18:58 <glenn> glenn has joined #svg
22:19:04 <cabanier> nikos: weren't there things that we want Erik's input on?
22:20:05 <cabanier> heycam: one of the items was clipping on filters: before/after/both
22:20:11 <cabanier> nikos: we didn't decide
22:20:55 <cabanier> ed: we discussed it a lot. the current version of the spec picks one of the ways and we discussed doing auto for drop shadows etc
22:21:30 <cabanier> heycam: we have margins too.
22:21:46 <cabanier> ed: we took them out but re-added them for shaders
22:21:55 <cabanier> ed: I have to look into it again
22:22:15 <cabanier> heycam: dirk should be here to drive the discussion
22:22:24 <heycam> http://www.w3.org/2012/08/09-svg-minutes.html#item07
22:22:38 <cabanier> heycam: this is the discussion
22:22:52 <ed> ACTION: ed to respond to the filter issues raised in http://www.w3.org/2012/08/09-svg-minutes.html#item07
22:22:52 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3345 - Respond to the filter issues raised in http://www.w3.org/2012/08/09-svg-minutes.html#item07 [on Erik Dahlström - due 2012-08-30].
22:22:54 <heycam> http://www.w3.org/2012/08/16-svg-minutes.html#item04
22:23:43 <cabanier> ed: I will respond to both offline
22:25:18 <ed> s/I will respond to both offline/I will read these offline and respond/
22:26:24 <Zakim> -Kelvin
22:26:25 <Zakim> -cabanier
22:26:26 <Zakim> -heycam
22:26:27 <Zakim> -Rich
22:26:27 <Zakim> -Tav
22:26:28 <Zakim> -ed
22:26:28 <Zakim> -nikos
22:26:28 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG(SVG1)5:00PM has ended
22:26:30 <Zakim> Attendees were Doug_Schepers, heycam, Kelvin, Rich, cabanier, Tav, ed, nikos, birtles
22:26:57 <ed> trackbot, end telcon
22:26:57 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
22:26:57 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
22:27:05 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
22:27:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/08/23-svg-minutes.html trackbot
22:27:06 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
22:27:06 <RRSAgent> I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/08/23-svg-actions.rdf :
22:27:06 <RRSAgent> ACTION: shepazu is going to look into conflicts between the model of tab index and navigation [1]
22:27:06 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/08/23-svg-irc#T21-38-18
22:27:06 <RRSAgent> ACTION: richardschwerdtfe to write up a proposal for role and aria states and properties integration [2]
22:27:06 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/08/23-svg-irc#T21-58-13
22:27:06 <RRSAgent> ACTION: kelvin to write requirement for zoom and pan for accessibility [3]
22:27:06 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/08/23-svg-irc#T22-05-55
22:27:06 <RRSAgent> ACTION: heycam to remove <color-profile> element from the spec [4]
22:27:06 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/08/23-svg-irc#T22-18-01
22:27:06 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ed to respond to the filter issues raised in http://www.w3.org/2012/08/09-svg-minutes.html#item07 [5]
22:27:06 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/08/23-svg-irc#T22-22-52
22:27:31 <richardschwerdtfe> richardschwerdtfe has left #svg