17:06:46 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #indie-ui
17:06:46 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/08/22-indie-ui-irc
17:06:48 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs 175
17:06:50 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be INDIE
17:06:50 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
17:06:51 <trackbot> Meeting: Independent User Interface Task Force Teleconference
17:06:51 <trackbot> Date: 22 August 2012
17:06:58 <janina> zakim, call janina
17:06:58 <Zakim> sorry, janina, I don't know what conference this is
17:07:12 <andy> andy has joined #indie-ui
17:08:20 <clown> zakim, this is 46343
17:08:20 <Zakim> sorry, clown, I do not see a conference named '46343' in progress or scheduled at this time
17:08:21 <andy> is this working
17:08:25 <janina> Zakim isn't accepting 46343# from me!
17:08:30 <andy> nor from me
17:08:34 <clown> nor from me.
17:08:40 <Caroline_Jay> nor me
17:08:43 <Ryladog> Ryladog has joined #indie-ui
17:08:43 <clown> zakim, this is INDIE
17:08:43 <Zakim> sorry, clown, I do not see a conference named 'INDIE' in progress or scheduled at this time
17:08:54 <janina> Is anyone on the call?
17:09:03 <ArtB> zakim, who is here?
17:09:03 <Zakim>  has not yet started, ArtB
17:09:04 <Zakim> On IRC I see Ryladog, andy, RRSAgent, janina, Zakim, clown, richardschwerdtfe, Caroline_Jay, smaug_, ArtB, shepazu, hober, trackbot
17:09:05 <Ryladog> katie is trying
17:09:12 <clown> can't get in throught the phone, janina
17:09:14 <ArtB> zakim, room for 15
17:09:14 <Zakim> I don't understand 'room for 15', ArtB
17:09:30 <janina> zakim, this will be indie-ui
17:09:30 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, janina
17:09:30 <Ryladog> not scheduled says sys admin
17:09:31 <ArtB> zakim, dumb bot?
17:09:32 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, ArtB.
17:09:36 <richardschwerdtfe> ugh
17:09:56 <richardschwerdtfe> zakim, this is 46343#
17:09:56 <Zakim> sorry, richardschwerdtfe, I do not see a conference named '46343#' in progress or scheduled at this time
17:10:10 <janina> Not good!
17:10:23 <janina> Michael is away today, on vacation
17:10:24 <richardschwerdtfe> can another conference her set up call in be set up?
17:10:25 <clown> zakim, what is scheduled?
17:10:25 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, clown.
17:10:36 <janina> zakim, room for 15?
17:10:38 <Zakim> ok, janina; conference Team_(indie-ui)17:10Z scheduled with code 46343 (INDIE) for 60 minutes until 1810Z
17:10:53 <Ralph> Ralph has joined #indie-ui
17:11:03 <janina> zakim, call janina
17:11:03 <Zakim> ok, janina; the call is being made
17:11:04 <Zakim> Team_(indie-ui)17:10Z has now started
17:11:05 <Zakim> Team_(indie-ui)17:10Z has ended
17:11:05 <Zakim> Attendees were 
17:11:08 <Zakim> Team_(indie-ui)17:10Z has now started
17:11:15 <Zakim> +??P19
17:11:18 <andy> I seem to be in
17:11:19 <Zakim> +Rich
17:11:37 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
17:11:43 <Zakim> +??P28
17:11:51 <clown> zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:11:51 <Zakim> +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
17:12:04 <clown> zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:12:04 <Zakim> ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:12:09 <Zakim> +[Apple]
17:12:11 <hober> Zakim, Apple is hober
17:12:11 <Zakim> +hober; got it
17:12:35 <Zakim> +Katie_Haritos-Shea
17:12:38 <hober> Zakim, who is making noise?
17:12:49 <Zakim> hober, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Katie_Haritos-Shea (13%), ??P19 (69%), ??P28 (4%)
17:12:52 <clown> zakim, mute me
17:12:52 <Zakim> Joseph_Scheuhammer should now be muted
17:13:20 <janina> zakim, who's on the phone?
17:13:20 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P19, Rich, Joseph_Scheuhammer (muted), ??P28, hober, Katie_Haritos-Shea
17:13:22 <clown> zakim, unmute me
17:13:22 <Zakim> Joseph_Scheuhammer should no longer be muted
17:13:37 <clown> zakim, who's noisy?
17:13:48 <Zakim> clown, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P19 (49%), ??P28 (54%)
17:13:48 <hober> Zakim, mute Katie_Haritos-Shea
17:13:50 <Zakim> Katie_Haritos-Shea should now be muted
17:13:54 <hober> Zakim, unmute Katie_Haritos-Shea
17:13:54 <Zakim> Katie_Haritos-Shea should no longer be muted
17:14:00 <hober> Zakim, mute P19
17:14:00 <Zakim> sorry, hober, I do not know which phone connection belongs to P19
17:14:03 <hober> Zakim, mute ??P19
17:14:03 <Zakim> ??P19 should now be muted
17:14:28 <Ralph> zakim, ??p28 is Janina
17:14:28 <Zakim> +Janina; got it
17:14:35 <andy> it might be me
17:14:52 <andy> probably yes
17:15:33 <Ryladog> yes
17:15:37 <andy> I41don't know how to do that on SIp
17:15:47 <andy> not on the phone
17:15:53 <andy> on SIP
17:15:58 <hober> Zakim, unmute ??P19
17:15:58 <Zakim> ??P19 should no longer be muted
17:16:18 <hober> Zakim, ??P19 is andy
17:16:18 <Zakim> +andy; got it
17:16:20 <andy> zakim, mute me
17:16:20 <Zakim> andy should now be muted
17:16:42 <clown> http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot.html
17:17:02 <Ralph> Ralph has left #indie-ui
17:17:25 <andy> I don't have a key entry window on this sip client - I dialled direct to some number@somewhere - didn't enter a call entry code at all
17:17:32 <janina> zakim, pick a victim
17:17:32 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:17:51 <clown> scribe:  Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:17:52 <Zakim> +Caroline
17:18:13 <janina> Meeting: IndieUI Task Force telecon
17:18:13 <janina> Chair: Janina_Sajka
17:18:13 <janina> agenda+ Admin Update: Repository; Tracker; Work Statement CFC; TPAC
17:18:13 <janina> agenda+ Recruiting Update; Polling for Telecon Time?
17:18:13 <janina> agenda+ Use Cases Walk-Through; Discussion?
17:18:15 <janina> agenda+ Scribe for our Next Teleconference (on 5 September)
17:18:18 <janina> agenda+ Be Done
17:18:20 <janina>  
17:18:27 <Lachy> Lachy has joined #indie-ui
17:19:57 <clown> JS:  go through the top of the agenda as quick as possible, then move to use cases discussion.
17:20:04 <clown> topic:  recruiting
17:20:12 <clown> JS: any updates.
17:20:23 <clown> CJ:  introduces self.
17:21:16 <clown> JS: I sent one final email to Scott Gonzalez, and cc'ed doug.  No response.
17:21:20 <clown> topic:  user cases
17:21:28 <clown> s/user cases/use cases/
17:21:46 <clown> JS:  any specific questions about the use cases?
17:22:25 <clown> RS:  there are about 30 − 35.  Should we go through every one?  Or review them and add comments?
17:22:39 <clown> JS:  one-by-one is a good way to proceed.
17:23:13 <clown> JS:  looking for link...
17:24:21 <clown> http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/wiki/Use_Cases_and_Requirements
17:24:33 <andy> yep
17:24:36 <andy> ty
17:25:16 <clown> RS:  manipulating a map
17:25:18 <clown> http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/wiki/Use_Cases_and_Requirements#Scenario_1:_Manipulating_a_map
17:25:31 <clown> RS:  reads the use case.
17:26:51 <clown> RS:  we agreed that the group decides the priority.  Note that this use case has a priority of "medium"
17:27:06 <Zakim> -Janina
17:27:59 <Zakim> +??P21
17:28:06 <Ryladog> q+
17:28:28 <clown> RS:  looks like they want to give a point of regard or focus.
17:28:32 <clown> RS:  is that right?
17:28:40 <janina> ack r
17:29:04 <clown> K: should we allow voice commands as well?
17:29:38 <clown> RS: mobile devices allow for "next" commands, but not clear how to do this on a map.
17:29:47 <clown> RS: may also want to allow eye tracker.
17:30:39 <clown> RS:  we need equivalent of events that allow users to activate the thing at the point of regard.
17:30:47 <Ryladog> q+
17:31:15 <clown> RS: rotate, and pan should be high level commands.
17:31:31 <clown> K:  pinch zooms in, spreading fingers zooms out.
17:31:46 <clown> K:  we need something to give/get/select focus.
17:32:35 <clown> s/K:/KHS:/
17:33:10 <clown> JS:  Rich is noting an old screen reader technique:  discover what is there without activating.
17:33:38 <clown> RS:  that might be for the UA or AT to handle — browse the app without causing something to happen.
17:33:49 <clown> KHS: yes, get focus without activating.
17:34:09 <clown> JS: the user has explored; now I want to activate the thing I've discovered.
17:34:31 <clown> RS:  allows users to pin their location on that "thing".
17:34:57 <clown> KHS:  a where am I? function.
17:35:07 <janina> q?
17:35:11 <clown> RS:  or pin me here.
17:35:12 <janina> ack r
17:35:18 <Ryladog> +1
17:35:33 <clown> RS:  is keyboard focus enough to do that today?
17:36:01 <clown> KHS:  keyboard focus will identify where you are, and then you make a decision.
17:36:20 <clown> RS: yes, but may not have keyboard in this case, but need something like keyboard focus.
17:36:38 <clown> KHS:  right. need something that does the same thing in the non-keyboard case.
17:37:29 <clown> RS:  any objection to calling it focus, given that it might refer to something other than focus?
17:37:57 <clown> JS:  if problematic, we can adjust later.  Good working definition for now.
17:38:35 <clown> KHS:  change the priority from medium to high, then.
17:38:38 <clown> JS:  the focus?
17:38:54 <clown> KHS: right.  this particular function is high (maybe not this use case).
17:39:17 <janina> q?
17:40:01 <clown> RS: zooming — do we pass a parameter to say how much?
17:40:10 <clown> RS: do we need an amount?  and how much?
17:40:18 <clown> KHS:  sounds like something that already exists.
17:40:26 <clown> KHS:  in mapping GPS events.
17:40:45 <clown> RS:  we need a zoom in/out feature.
17:40:54 <clown> JS:  how do you decide on how much to zoom?
17:41:02 <clown> JS:  good question for the list.
17:41:53 <clown> RS:  we need the zoom functions regardless of how it is trigerred — pinch,  voice command.
17:41:56 <Ryladog> q
17:42:06 <Ryladog> q
17:42:06 <clown> RS:  do we need a rotation request?
17:42:12 <Ryladog> q+
17:42:24 <clown> RS:  and what parmeters does it need?
17:42:35 <andy> yes
17:42:36 <clown> RS:  clock/counter clockwise?
17:42:42 <clown> JS:  yes.
17:42:51 <clown> KHS:  also for 3d manipulation.
17:43:04 <Caroline_Jay> zakim, mute me
17:43:04 <Zakim> sorry, Caroline_Jay, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
17:43:10 <clown> KHS:  consider a globe, and rotating it.
17:43:25 <Zakim> -??P21
17:43:57 <janina> Yikes, I keep getting dropped!
17:43:57 <clown> RS: we need a z-direction, or an angle.
17:44:15 <Zakim> +??P0
17:44:31 <Caroline_Jay> Zakim, Caroline is Caroline_Jay
17:44:31 <Zakim> +Caroline_Jay; got it
17:44:42 <Caroline_Jay> zakim, mute me
17:44:42 <Zakim> Caroline_Jay should now be muted
17:45:10 <clown> RS:  we need another direction in addition to clockwise and counterclockwise
17:45:59 <richardschwerdtfe> Kenneth Russell Google
17:46:08 <clown> RS:  we should discuss with one of the chrome developers.
17:46:50 <clown> RS:  then there is pan and zoom — complicated in 3d.
17:46:54 <clown> JS:  and layers...
17:47:11 <clown> RS:  we should discuss the teminology with Kenneth.
17:47:32 <clown> RS:  we have pan, zoom, rotation, and focus.  Anything else?
17:47:45 <clown> RS:  are these higher level events for this use case?
17:47:59 <clown> (no objections).
17:48:06 <clown> JS:  do one more use case?
17:48:17 <clown> RS:  execute a popup?
17:48:27 <clown> http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/wiki/Use_Cases_and_Requirements#S2:_Command_to_execute_a_popup
17:48:34 <clown> RS:  reads the use case.
17:49:25 <clown> RS:  do we need to have a high level event to activate a popup?
17:49:29 <clown> KHS:  yes
17:49:35 <clown> JS:  yes
17:49:44 <clown> RS:  what do you call it?
17:50:02 <clown> JS:  need to know that it is there, first.
17:50:21 <clown> JS:  after activating, need to dismiss or navigate the menu.
17:50:45 <clown> RS:  there are a number of ways of dismiss things — ESC key.
17:51:15 <clown> JS: how about "open menu"?
17:51:28 <clown> KHS:  it might not be a popup.
17:51:42 <clown> JS:  if it has aria-haspopup, it is a menu.
17:51:57 <clown> KHS:  but it may no longer be a menu in the future.
17:52:08 <clown> KHS:  so, how about "popup"
17:52:17 <clown> RS:  any objections?
17:52:28 <clown> JS:  these are provisional.
17:52:39 <clown> RS:  what about getting rid of it.
17:52:47 <clown> JS:  how about "dismiss"?
17:52:56 <clown> (no objections).
17:53:21 <clown> RS:  Use case three.
17:53:22 <clown> http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/wiki/Use_Cases_and_Requirements#S3:_Command_to_open_a_tree_branch.2C_menu.2C_expandable_grid_cell.2C_or_expandable_section
17:53:40 <clown> RS:  reads use case.
17:53:49 <Ryladog> q+
17:54:29 <andy> q+
17:54:49 <clown> RS: we are not looking at the content to see if something is expandable.
17:55:02 <clown> RS:  need something like this for native controls
17:56:09 <clown> RS:  is this a high priority item.
17:56:23 <clown> KHS:  this is important, and we need to look at the 3d aspect.
17:56:41 <clown> KHS:  basically drilling down, and expanding.
17:57:00 <clown> RS:  compare this with zooming.  this is revealing content.
17:57:03 <clown> KHS: yes
17:57:13 <clown> RS:  maybe it's "reveal content" then.
17:57:28 <clown> JS:  is this all that different from a popup?
17:57:48 <clown> KHS:  this is heirarchy in this case.
17:57:59 <clown> RS: right, popup shows a different entity.
17:58:11 <clown> RS:  but, potentially they can be the same.
17:58:27 <clown> JS:  it might be a degree of complexity.
17:59:31 <clown> RS:  Joseph, can a tree item also have a popup?
17:59:38 <Zakim> -??P0
18:00:23 <andy> Zakim, unmute me
18:00:23 <Zakim> andy should no longer be muted
18:01:12 <clown> JES:  yes, a tree item can be expandable, and it can also have a popup menu associated with it.
18:01:30 <janina> I think I've been talking but have been dropped by Zakim!
18:01:34 <richardschwerdtfe> Action: clown author draft spec. change for james craig to include place holders for agreed upon events today in 
18:01:34 <trackbot> Created ACTION-5 - Author draft spec. change for james craig to include place holders for agreed upon events today in  [on Joseph Scheuhammer - due 2012-08-29].
18:01:47 <Zakim> +??P0
18:01:59 <clown> JS:  so maybe these are different kinds of commands or different ways of revealing things.
18:02:05 <richardschwerdtfe> zakm, ??P0 is janina
18:02:32 <clown> JS:  james craig will put the apple proposal into mercurial and then people can have access.
18:02:45 <clown> JS:  the next meeting is sep 5.
18:03:15 <clown> JS:  and discuss everything on the email list.
18:03:38 <clown> RS:  start next meeting with S4, which is the opposite of expand.
18:03:50 <Zakim> -Katie_Haritos-Shea
18:03:59 <Zakim> -Rich
18:04:06 <Zakim> -hober
18:04:15 <Caroline_Jay> -Caroline
18:04:19 <clown> zakim, bye
18:04:19 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Rich, Joseph_Scheuhammer, hober, Katie_Haritos-Shea, Janina, andy, Caroline_Jay
18:04:19 <Zakim> Zakim has left #indie-ui
18:04:32 <clown> rrsagent, make minutes
18:04:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/08/22-indie-ui-minutes.html clown
18:05:19 <clown> rrsagent, make log public
18:05:48 <clown> http://www.w3.org/2012/08/22-indie-ui-minutes.html,text
18:11:37 <clown> rrsagent, make minutes
18:11:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/08/22-indie-ui-minutes.html clown
18:16:05 <clown> s/K:/KHS:/g
18:16:10 <clown> rrsagent, make minutes
18:16:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/08/22-indie-ui-minutes.html clown
18:44:15 <Lachy> Lachy has joined #indie-ui
20:59:34 <clown> clown has left #indie-ui