20:58:13 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #svg
20:58:13 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/08/16-svg-irc
20:58:15 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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20:58:17 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
20:58:17 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see GA_SVGWG(SVG1)5:00PM already started
20:58:18 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
20:58:18 <trackbot> Date: 16 August 2012
20:58:33 <heycam> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012JulSep/0096.html
20:58:35 <heycam> Chair: Cameron
20:58:40 <Zakim> +cabanier
20:58:49 <Zakim> + +1.415.832.aaaa
20:59:09 <Zakim> +nikos
20:59:14 <krit> Zakim, aaaa is me
20:59:14 <Zakim> +krit; got it
20:59:27 <cabanier> zakim, who is on the call
20:59:27 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the call', cabanier
20:59:35 <cabanier> zakim, who is on the call?
20:59:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Google], cabanier, krit, nikos
20:59:50 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
20:59:57 <Zakim> +??P13
20:59:59 <heycam> Zakim, ??P13 is me
20:59:59 <Zakim> +heycam; got it
21:00:26 <pdr> Hi, I am [Google]. 
21:01:00 <shepazu> present+ Brian Leroux
21:02:03 <richardschwerdtfe> richardschwerdtfe has joined #svg
21:02:57 <Zakim> +Tav
21:03:11 <krit> Zakim, [Google] is pdr
21:03:11 <Zakim> +pdr; got it
21:03:41 <Zakim> +Rich
21:04:37 <heycam> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/19480/SVGLucerne2012/results
21:05:34 <nikos> scribenick: nikos
21:05:54 <nikos> heycam: first we'll have an introduction from Rich
21:06:07 <nikos> richardschwerdtfe: I'm involved in a number of w3 efforts on accessibility
21:06:16 <nikos> ... I work for IBM. CTO for accessibility in software
21:06:33 <nikos> ... what I'm interested in svg2 is having it as accessible as possible for the svg2 release
21:06:51 <nikos> ... next week  Ican go through the gap analysis we did if yo ulike
21:06:57 <nikos> ... i'll send a doc for review before then
21:07:20 <nikos> heycam: We have a F2F coming up, might be a bit soon for you to attend
21:07:54 <nikos> richardschwerdtfe: I probably won't be able to make it
21:08:15 <nikos> ... I have one question - in terms of accessibility work, are you looking for content changes?
21:08:26 <nikos> heycam: generally we have people pitching into the documents that they can
21:08:37 <nikos> ... Tav and I probably do the most editorial work
21:08:57 <nikos> richardschwerdtfe: I'm happy to pitch in then
21:09:10 <nikos> Topic: Publication of FPWD of SVG 2
21:09:28 <nikos> heycam: This is a reminder that we're scheduled to publish Tuesday next week
21:09:37 <nikos> ... I'm going to do clean ups this morning and then send off request to the webmaster
21:09:52 <nikos> ... so if you have any changes (that aren't controversial) get them in now
21:10:51 <nikos> Topic: Sizing of SVG and HTML
21:10:59 <nikos> pdr: Hi, I'm from Google on the Chrome team
21:11:11 <nikos> ... I'm implementing the sizing stuff, where you have image with svg in it
21:11:12 <heycam> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gDnYxvqIMPjs4TThwc5N0Jc6qgIKlrgPaYJglsvrjtI/edit?pli=1
21:11:29 <nikos> ... what I can tell, this is really underspecified in the spec - all browsers are different
21:11:38 <nikos> ... I thnk Firefox is the best implementation
21:11:48 <nikos> ... I was wondering if we could clean up the spec and converge on their approach
21:11:51 <pdr> https://docs.google.com/a/chromium.org/document/d/1gDnYxvqIMPjs4TThwc5N0Jc6qgIKlrgPaYJglsvrjtI/edit?pli=1
21:12:06 <nikos> ... I listed the various permutations of svg file
21:12:23 <nikos> ... you can click on the bottom and I have a list of results - you can see how they differ
21:12:34 <nikos> heycam: I was wondering if you could summarise the behaviour of FF
21:12:44 <nikos> pdr: for the basic things - all are right
21:13:14 <nikos> ... differences when you hav ean image with a width and an svg width property and they differ (attribute or property)
21:13:19 <nikos> ... if you look at the table in my doc
21:13:24 <nikos> ... last 2 rows are an example of this
21:14:05 <nikos> heycam: Am I right that the svg width property doesn't seem to be doing anything
21:14:13 <nikos> pdr: that's right. that's the path mozilla took and it's as good as any
21:14:54 <nikos> krit svg in image tag?
21:14:57 <nikos> pdr: that's the first table
21:15:01 <nikos> ... second is inline svg
21:15:13 <nikos> s/krit svg in image tag?/krit: svg in image tag?
21:15:26 <nikos> pdr: my request for the WG is to clean this stuff up
21:15:28 <shepazu> q+
21:15:35 <nikos> heycam: this has been an open issue for a while and we are keen to fix it up
21:15:41 <nikos> pdr: would you like someone to write it up?
21:15:51 <nikos> ... I have a test suite that matches mozilla behaviour - we could spec it from thta
21:15:56 <nikos> s/thta/that
21:16:33 <nikos> krit: regarding embedding svg image inline - do we want to differ between width attribute and property in future, when we move to presentation attribute?
21:17:17 <nikos> krit: Canvas is a bit different than SVG
21:17:23 <nikos> ... Canvas has resolution
21:17:35 <nikos> Tav: The equivalent in SVG is the viewport size
21:18:14 <nikos> krit: for inner svg element, would there still be separate width attribute and property?
21:18:31 <nikos> heycam: currently the width property on inner svg element doen'st do anything?
21:18:34 <nikos> all: right
21:19:27 <nikos> krit: I'd like to specify something that is common for all browsers
21:20:01 <nikos> shepazu: pdr, can you write the specification from the data you have?
21:20:14 <nikos> heycam: If you could write up the rules from the sizing, that would be helpful
21:20:18 <nikos> pdr: ok
21:20:49 <nikos> shepazu: we talked about adding the viewbox value auto, which automatically sets the viewbox to the bounding box of the containing shapes
21:20:56 <nikos> pdr: how would you like me to do this?
21:21:02 <vhardy_> vhardy_ has joined #svg
21:21:03 <nikos> ... email results to www-svg?
21:21:05 <nikos> all: yes
21:21:50 <nikos> heycam: we'll wait for a resolution until you write up the rules
21:22:00 <nikos> ... is everyone ok that we move forward?
21:22:09 <nikos> shepazu: I think the general approach is fine, it's a good way forward
21:22:37 <nikos> Resolution: Address the question of SVG sizing 
21:23:15 <nikos> Topic: Filter Effects - clipping of subreagions
21:23:29 <nikos> krit: I can summarise.
21:23:52 <nikos> ... we have an issue in the filter effects spec where we might mwant to specify a keyword or property that allows the author to clip the input or output or nothing
21:24:14 <nikos> ... since we haven't decided if we want just input or output I'd like to delay this
21:24:33 <nikos> ... it would be good to get Erik's input
21:24:43 <nikos> ... we discussed this last week and resolved to ask Erik about it
21:25:29 <nikos> Topic: Filter Effects - dx and dy with primitiveUnits="objectBoundingBox"
21:25:34 <krit> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/tip/filters/index.html#feOffsetElement
21:25:58 <nikos> krit: I just realised that dx and dy take numbers and percentages
21:26:03 <nikos> ... some browsers support percentages
21:26:59 <nikos> heycam: is it useful to support percentages?
21:27:19 <nikos> krit: I would expect that percentage is relative to either viewport or object depending on primitiveUnits
21:27:33 <nikos> ... I think it's ok to have numbers that act as percentages
21:28:03 <nikos> ... I think we shouldn't chane the specification
21:28:15 <nikos> heycam: if we have percentages it might seem like we can take arbitrary lengths as well
21:28:39 <nikos> ... percentages are separate from lengths in css?
21:28:56 <nikos> krit: yes
21:29:05 <nikos> heycam: I'm looking at other things that take 0-1 number values
21:29:23 <nikos> ... the new filter shorthand property value takes number as well as percentage
21:29:47 <nikos> ... I'm wondering if there's an expectation that values that take 0-1 are a ratio
21:31:07 <nikos> krit: if you put 0.5 with primitiveUnits="objectBoundingBox" it means 50%
21:31:18 <nikos> ... with the other value of primiteUnits it means 0.5 * the unit
21:31:34 <nikos> heycam: I think it would be good to get Erik's input - are you happy to talk about it when he's back?
21:31:36 <nikos> krit: yep
21:31:39 <nikos> Topic: CSS Masking
21:31:46 <nikos> krit: I want to summarise 
21:31:53 <krit> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/tip/masking/index.html
21:31:53 <nikos> ... I brought up a short first draft
21:32:18 <nikos> ... it specifies what webkit is doing with css msaking as well as waht firefox is doing with svg masking
21:32:48 <nikos> ... mask-repeat, etc are all shorthand for the webkit properties
21:32:54 <nikos> ... I think they can apply to svg in the same way
21:33:18 <nikos> ... the css wg isn't in favour of using all these properties
21:33:55 <nikos> ... not all these properties make sense for svg
21:34:05 <nikos> ... such as mask-attachment, clip and origin
21:34:13 <nikos> ... I think we could remove these for svg
21:34:35 <nikos> ... so far no one in css has objected to clip-paths
21:34:47 <nikos> heycam: all those mask properties - they are things taht webkit currently supports for html content?
21:35:08 <nikos> krit: mask-attachment doesn't do anything in webkit, mask-type you can select between luminance and alpha masks
21:35:20 <nikos> s/taht/that
21:35:45 <nikos> krit: the editorship of the specification, I'd like to delay to next css meeting, to see if they reject completely or decide to go on
21:35:56 <nikos> ... they are worried that they have too many specifications on the go
21:36:15 <nikos> heycam: you were going to look at whether you could supply resources for editing the spec weren't you?
21:36:33 <nikos> krit: it depends on css wg, whether they reinvent the wheel or not. It may be too much work
21:36:47 <nikos> ... if it's just removing properties and changing behaviour of properties then it's ok
21:36:57 <nikos> heycam: I think it would be a bit silly to do everything from scratch
21:37:05 <nikos> ... currently clip-path stuff is in the spec
21:37:12 <nikos> krit: no one from css objected to it yet
21:37:21 <nikos> heycam: maybe because they haven't thought about it properly yet
21:37:39 <nikos> ... it would be good for us to review it also
21:37:52 <nikos> krit: there are some descriptions missing, but the general intent of the spec sould be clear
21:38:18 <nikos> ... css wg is looking at aligning mask feature with specific part of element, i.e just mask border or just content
21:38:31 <nikos> heycam: that seems similar to shaders, with filters applying to different parts
21:39:07 <nikos> krit: it might apply to svg elements once we support vector effects, i.e. i just want to have mask on stroke or fill
21:39:17 <nikos> heycam: even without full vector effects we could support that
21:39:33 <nikos> krit: dont know if we will fit this in svg 2
21:40:06 <nikos> heycam: if the css wg doesn't want to take it on, what will be the way forward?
21:40:15 <nikos> krit: I think it's reasonable to define what webkit already does
21:40:42 <nikos> heycam: Brian said he probably doesn't have time to be a full editor
21:40:50 <nikos> krit: css wg meet is in 2 weeks so we'll see what they say
21:41:03 <nikos> heycam: for the moment the masking chapter is in the svg 2 spec - it's probably a bit early to point to the new document
21:41:17 <nikos> ... I think the direction is good though
21:41:36 <nikos> ... I might agree with comments about proliferation of the background style property and whether we can cut some out
21:42:54 <nikos> heycam: just a reminder to register for the F2F
21:43:00 <heycam> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/19480/SVGLucerne2012/
21:43:15 <nikos> krit: just one more thing - css wg has decided to publish draft of filter effects
21:44:10 <nikos> heycam: I noticed css working group resolved to include scientific notation
21:44:24 <nikos> ... there was some opposition but it got through
21:45:46 <Zakim> -pdr
21:45:49 <Zakim> -krit
21:45:49 <nikos> RRSAgent, make minutes
21:45:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/08/16-svg-minutes.html nikos
21:45:50 <Zakim> -Tav
21:45:51 <Zakim> -heycam
21:45:51 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
21:45:53 <Zakim> -cabanier
21:45:55 <Zakim> -Rich
21:45:56 <Zakim> -nikos
21:45:57 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG(SVG1)5:00PM has ended
21:45:57 <Zakim> Attendees were cabanier, +1.415.832.aaaa, nikos, krit, Doug_Schepers, heycam, Tav, pdr, Rich
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