13:31:34 RRSAgent has joined #rd 13:31:34 logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/08/15-rd-irc 13:31:34 zakim, please clear the agenda 13:31:34 agenda cleared 13:31:35 q- 13:31:36 RRSAgent, make logs world 13:31:38 Zakim, this will be 7394 13:31:38 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_RDWG()9:30AM scheduled to start now 13:31:39 Meeting: Research and Development Working Group Teleconference 13:31:39 Chair: Harper_Simon 13:31:39 Date: 15 August 2012 13:31:39 Agenda+ Welcome & Logistics (Regrets, Agenda Requests, Comments) [sharper] 13:31:39 Agenda+ Text Cust. CfP Approval (5m) -http://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/wiki/Text_Customization_Symposium_draft_page#Call_for_Papers_2 [shawn] 13:31:39 Agenda+ E2R CfP Discussion (25m) - http://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/wiki/Topic_4_pre-call [klaus] 13:31:40 Agenda+ TC and E2R Timelines Approval(10m) [shawn] 13:31:40 Agenda+ Metrics W3C Note Status Approval (5m) [shadi] 13:31:42 Agenda+ Next Topic Discussion (10m) [all] 13:31:44 Agenda+ Issues and Actions (Standing Item): https://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/tracker/ [sharper] 13:31:46 Agenda+ Any Other Business (Standing Item) [sharper] 13:31:48 zakim, save agenda 13:31:55 ok, sharper, the agenda has been written to http://www.w3.org/2012/08/15-rd-agenda.rdf 13:31:59 rrsagent, make logs public 13:31:59 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:31:59 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/08/15-rd-minutes.html sharper 13:32:13 zakim, mute me 13:32:13 sorry, vivienne, I don't know what conference this is 13:32:16 giorgio has joined #rd 13:32:18 zakim, take up item 1 13:32:18 agendum 1. "Welcome & Logistics (Regrets, Agenda Requests, Comments)" taken up [from sharper] 13:32:45 zakim, who is on the phone? 13:32:45 I notice WAI_RDWG()9:30AM has restarted 13:32:46 On the phone I see luz (muted), ??P9, ??P10, vivienne, ??P12, Shawn, Shadi 13:32:52 +??P15 13:32:57 zakim, this is rdwg 13:32:57 shadi, this was already WAI_RDWG()9:30AM 13:32:58 ok, shadi; that matches WAI_RDWG()9:30AM 13:32:58 markel has joined #rd 13:33:08 zakim, mute me 13:33:08 Shawn should now be muted 13:33:09 :-) 13:33:11 q- 13:33:13 zakim, ??P15 is giorgio 13:33:13 +giorgio; got it 13:33:23 zakim, ??10 is me 13:33:23 sorry, klaus, I do not recognize a party named '??10' 13:33:27 ack me 13:33:45 zakim, mute me 13:33:45 vivienne should now be muted 13:33:47 +??P16 13:34:01 zakim, ??P16 is markel 13:34:01 +markel; got it 13:34:14 zakim, ??p9 is me 13:34:14 +Justin_Brown; got it 13:34:27 zakim, ??P9 is me 13:34:27 I already had ??P9 as Justin_Brown, christos 13:34:27 zakim, who is on the phone? 13:34:28 On the phone I see luz (muted), Justin_Brown, ??P10, vivienne (muted), ??P12, Shawn (muted), Shadi, giorgio, markel 13:35:06 zakim, ??P10 is me 13:35:06 +christos; got it 13:35:28 zakim mute me 13:35:36 ack me 13:35:47 zakim, mute me 13:35:47 christos should now be muted 13:36:12 zakim, christos is Klaus 13:36:12 +Klaus; got it 13:36:19 zakim, ??p12 is christos 13:36:19 +christos; got it 13:36:28 zakim, mute me 13:36:28 christos should now be muted 13:36:36 thanks 13:36:41 yeliz has joined #rd 13:36:59 Hi Luz, so nice to have you with us 13:37:09 Zakim, unmute me 13:37:09 luz should no longer be muted 13:37:51 Welcome, Luz! 13:38:00 problems with sip again 13:38:13 welcome Luz :-) 13:38:20 ack me 13:38:20 zakim, who is on the phone? 13:38:21 On the phone I see luz, Justin_Brown, Klaus (muted), vivienne, christos (muted), Shawn (muted), Shadi, giorgio, markel 13:38:25 +??P17 13:38:30 zakim, ??P17 is yeliz 13:38:30 +yeliz; got it 13:38:41 zakim, mute me 13:38:41 yeliz should now be muted 13:38:41 zakim, mute me 13:38:42 Klaus was already muted, klaus 13:38:55 zakim, unmute me 13:38:55 Klaus should no longer be muted 13:39:07 Zakim, mute me 13:39:07 luz should now be muted 13:39:35 Thank you Markel :-) 13:39:49 Thank you Shawn :-)! 13:40:24 +??P18 13:40:32 I can hear you but don't know what's on with my mic 13:40:39 zakim, ??P18 is sharper 13:40:39 +sharper; got it 13:40:58 zakim, ack me 13:40:58 unmuting christos 13:40:59 zakim, mute me 13:41:00 I see no one on the speaker queue 13:41:00 vivienne should now be muted 13:41:08 Thank you Vivienne :-) 13:41:23 ack me 13:41:30 zakim, mute me 13:41:30 christos should now be muted 13:42:16 zakim, who is on the phone? 13:42:16 On the phone I see luz (muted), Justin_Brown, Klaus, vivienne (muted), christos (muted), Shawn (muted), Shadi, giorgio, markel, yeliz (muted), sharper 13:42:31 zakim, unmute yeliz 13:42:31 yeliz should no longer be muted 13:42:50 zakim, who is noisy? 13:42:55 zakim, who is making noise? 13:42:56 zakim, mute yeliz 13:42:56 yeliz should now be muted 13:43:07 shawn, listening for 16 seconds I could not identify any sounds 13:43:20 I can hear a car 13:43:23 Was that me? 13:43:23 sharper, listening for 13 seconds I heard sound from the following: Shadi (54%), sharper (7%) 13:43:29 Ohh I have no car around 13:43:29 :) 13:43:42 zakim, mute me 13:43:42 Klaus should now be muted 13:43:46 zakim, unmute yeliz 13:43:46 yeliz should no longer be muted 13:43:54 peter has joined #rd 13:44:15 zakim, mute me 13:44:16 yeliz should now be muted 13:44:17 Thank you Giorgio, thank you Yeliz! 13:44:40 (Sorry I'm late - only on IRC today) 13:44:42 zakim, mute me 13:44:42 Shadi should now be muted 13:44:47 scribe: shadi 13:44:57 Thank you Simon. 13:45:17 zakim, take up next 13:45:17 agendum 2. "Text Cust. CfP Approval (5m) -http://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/wiki/Text_Customization_Symposium_draft_page#Call_for_Papers_2" taken up [from shawn] 13:45:24 ack me 13:45:29 http://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/wiki/Text_Customization_Symposium_draft_page 13:45:37 SLH: things changed quite a bit 13:45:50 ...co-chairs provided excellent and significant suggestions 13:46:09 ...thanks to several from the group who provided input too 13:46:26 ...page has several sections 13:46:41 ...what is on the main page, CfP page, and CfP email 13:46:52 ...a couple of points still open for discussion 13:47:03 SH: what is open? 13:47:29 SLH: question on user groups and terminology 13:47:46 ...need to be very sensitive 13:47:52 ...want to get input on that 13:48:00 q+ 13:48:15 ack l 13:48:16 ack l 13:48:32 LR: reply to my comments is fine 13:48:43 ...may be good to use "reading disabilities" 13:48:53 ack me 13:49:21 saz: coming along excellent. kudos - esp to co-chairs 13:49:44 ... beginning catchy words really nice - easy to skim & get overview 13:49:56 .. plus other refinements 13:50:20 exclustion on optimum format 13:50:54 what are personalize requirements. not sufficiently clear. 13:51:02 Agree. 13:51:24 zakim, mute me 13:51:24 Shadi should now be muted 13:51:46 SLH: assumption is that there is no single optimum font 13:52:01 "The following are out of scope of this topic: what is the optimum font and format for default text" 13:52:19 SAZ: request clarification 13:52:24 q+ 13:52:25 ...do we need to explain why it is out of scope versus what we mean by that 13:52:27 ack me 13:52:51 Yes, maybe a link to http://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/wiki/Text_Customization#The_Need_for_Text_Customisation would help. 13:52:57 VC: perhaps an extra sentence explaining why it is not in scope 13:53:04 zakim, mute me 13:53:04 vivienne should now be muted 13:53:23 SLH: Luz also suggests linking to the background 13:53:24 q+ 13:53:30 ack s 13:53:31 ack me 13:53:44 slh: agree. will do. 13:53:55 "which of these are necessary requirements for people to be able to read text, and which are optional suggestions to improve readability." 13:54:14 saz: request calrification to ^^^ 13:54:40 ... effectively 13:54:53 q+ 13:55:07 ack me 13:55:13 ack sh 13:55:18 zakim, mute me 13:55:18 Shadi should now be muted 13:55:42 SAZ: maybe separate between "accessibility need" and "general usability" 13:55:54 SLH: wondering about relative priority 13:56:07 ...for example, what WCAG level would it have? 13:56:14 q+ 13:56:20 ack me 13:56:43 VC: seen something about that in SortSite 13:57:00 q+ 13:57:00 [that wording is from WCAG 1 priority A, AA, AAA ;-] 13:57:04 ...differentiate between levels and impact on users 13:57:21 zakim, mute me 13:57:21 vivienne should now be muted 13:57:25 ack g 13:57:33 GB: do we need to make that kind of distinction? 13:57:35 q+ 13:57:47 ...accessibility requirements are contextual 13:57:58 I agree with Giorgio 13:58:02 +1 13:58:04 +1 13:58:05 ...artificial to try to classify 13:58:07 +1 13:58:16 humm, interesting point 13:58:16 Me too, I wouldn't write them 13:58:17 ...I would try to stay away 13:58:49 SH: spent a lot of time refining this 13:59:18 ...the more time we spend on this, the less time we have for people to submit 13:59:25 +1 13:59:28 no 13:59:31 ...not sure that the benefit of these changes is worth the delay 13:59:31 no 13:59:32 I think it's ready 13:59:34 +1 13:59:35 no 13:59:38 +1 13:59:39 no 13:59:43 no 13:59:43 no 13:59:56 SH: Do we want to see this again before it goes out ^^^ 13:59:58 undecided :-) 14:00:29 SLH: can we spend some more time on this? 14:00:51 yes, I would delet them 14:00:53 ...are people suggesting deleting this totally? 14:00:58 me too 14:00:59 +1 14:01:04 yes 14:01:07 +1 14:01:07 +1 14:01:26 ack me 14:02:02 s/ ...are people suggesting deleting this totally?/... should we delete "and which are optional suggestions to improve readability." all together?/ 14:02:55 saz: have put a lot of work. has really matured over the last week. 14:03:19 ... however, important to have polished calls. they set the tone & frame the following work 14:03:26 ... maybe as group, we should review things earlier 14:04:01 ... get this kind of input earlier. get ourselves to review things in more detail -- thinking ahead for the upcoming topics 14:04:38 ... caution against putting out things that are not well reviwed and maybe less quality , or even conflicting statements or confusing 14:04:54 zakim, mute me 14:04:54 Shadi should now be muted 14:04:55 ... will impact quality of papers submissions and symposium 14:05:33 SH: at a certain point the improvements become quite minute 14:05:44 ...glad to see that it is ready to go 14:06:08 ...will be a good template for next calls 14:06:28 ack me 14:06:31 RRESOLUTION: CfP ready to go with minor edits, group does not need to see it again 14:06:38 zakim, take up next 14:06:38 agendum 3. "E2R CfP Discussion (25m) - http://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/wiki/Topic_4_pre-call" taken up [from klaus] 14:06:42 zakim, mute me 14:06:42 Shawn should now be muted 14:06:50 zakim, unmute me 14:06:50 Klaus should no longer be muted 14:06:58 a/RRESOLUTION: CfP ready to go with minor edits, group does not need to see it again/RESOLUTION: CfP ready to go with minor edits, group does not need to see it again/ 14:07:24 KM: restarted working on Easy to Read 14:07:35 ...looking at model setup by Shawn 14:07:44 ...gathering Scientific Committee 14:08:04 ...focus relates to use of language 14:08:17 ...trying to structure what papers we want to see 14:08:49 ...looking at what guidelines are there 14:09:10 ...and seeing how they could be integrated into standards such as those from WAI 14:09:30 (I would like it to be noted on record that my computer hates me deeply) 14:09:39 ...also looking at tools, audio-display, use of symbols, use of pictures, and multimedia 14:10:09 ...practice and learning 14:10:31 ...and finally to look at commonality across different languages 14:10:48 zakim, mute me 14:10:48 Klaus should now be muted 14:11:02 q+ 14:11:05 ack m 14:11:52 MV: like the comprehensive list of topics 14:12:01 ...but drawing attention and some minor issues 14:12:50 ...terminology issue between "tools" and "metrics" to measure readability 14:13:16 ...also Flesh and others may have come from an educational context rather than from accessibility/usability 14:13:27 Gunning Fog 14:13:50 ...otherwise looking quite good 14:14:08 Here's some info on the levels Markel mentioned: http://juicystudio.com/services/readability.php 14:14:18 SH: like structure and like the contents 14:14:27 ...may need to be contracted a little 14:14:27 Flesh-Kincaid instead of Flesh,Kincaid 14:14:57 q+ to say perhaps it's too broad? maybe more focused? 14:15:01 ...list of topics could be tightened a little 14:15:17 ...would like to see how this would look in Shawn's new format 14:15:42 ...maybe slightly abbreviated 14:16:06 q+ 14:16:12 ack me 14:16:13 shawn, you wanted to say perhaps it's too broad? maybe more focused? 14:16:13 ack shawn 14:16:17 plain langague 14:16:45 SLH: highlighting key points helps skimming 14:16:53 ...but may need some more focusing 14:17:03 ...was also looking for "plain language" buzz-word 14:17:39 ack shadi 14:17:42 ack me 14:18:48 +??P0 14:18:59 Zakim, ??P0 is me 14:18:59 +peter; got it 14:19:05 Zakim, mute me 14:19:05 peter should now be muted 14:19:16 *exactly* (better late than never) 14:19:17 saz: [@@] ... maybe categorize - prioritize (no, that's not quite right :)... 14:19:40 .. structure to help people get an overview 14:20:07 what's the goal? what do we want to achieve with this symposium. figure that out, then work from there 14:20:22 zakim, q? 14:20:22 I see no one on the speaker queue 14:20:25 zakim, unmute me 14:20:25 Klaus should no longer be muted 14:20:28 zakim, mute me 14:20:28 Shadi should now be muted 14:20:54 SH: [reads out objectives] 14:21:09 http://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/wiki/Topic_4_pre-call#Objectives 14:21:29 KM: would be happy to say it 14:21:39 ...topics were compiled 14:21:53 ...wondered if we should restrict the list 14:22:15 ...think the core goal would be to come up with a common understanding of what easy-to-read is 14:22:34 ...and think about how to integrate them into standards 14:22:48 ...because developers are required to deliver easy-to-read 14:23:24 ...also the topic of "practice" seems important 14:23:47 ...to get people who actually do easy-to-read in practice to give us their experience 14:23:52 +1 14:23:56 q+ 14:23:58 zakim, mute me 14:23:58 Klaus should now be muted 14:23:58 [ /me really interested what papers will come in on this! I think will want to group papers into subtopics for the symposium and proably proceedings. (... also glad that we decided to do text custmoization separately so it doesn't get lost in this broad topic :-)] 14:24:01 ack me 14:24:02 ack sh 14:24:46 saz: agree with that as main focus & goals. bring diff people together, including practioners. develop common understanding of what is e2r in the first place 14:25:01 ... if we agre that is the goal of the symposium? 14:25:10 boundaires of e2r 14:25:27 that would help when we are reviewing this draft 14:26:03 zakim, q? 14:26:03 I see no one on the speaker queue 14:26:19 sh: objectives not really boundaries now 14:26:35 saz: maybe boundaries not the right word. [@@misssed] 14:26:43 different ways to look at this 14:26:58 look at diffreent aspect - but towards a goal 14:27:16 zakim, mute me 14:27:16 Shadi should now be muted 14:27:29 s/ look at diffreent aspect - but towards a goal/ look at different aspects (e.g., tools, etc.) - but always towards a specific goal/ 14:27:34 zakim, unmute me 14:27:34 Klaus should no longer be muted 14:27:38 SH: agree that this is the focus? 14:27:47 KM: yes, agree to it very much 14:28:09 zakim, mute me 14:28:09 Klaus should now be muted 14:28:35 zakim, unmute me 14:28:35 Klaus should no longer be muted 14:28:48 SH: can we get an update by next week? 14:29:14 zakim, mute me 14:29:14 Klaus should now be muted 14:29:18 KM: will try to send out an update by the end of this week, and ask the group to provide feedback 14:29:46 SH: would like to get this in good shape by next week's meeting 14:29:58 ...dedicate most of next meeting to finishing this 14:30:25 zakim, take up next 14:30:25 agendum 4. "TC and E2R Timelines Approval(10m) " taken up [from shawn] 14:30:29 (did we cover the mobile note? or did anyone ask) 14:30:31 ack me 14:30:39 sorry have to leave - bye 14:30:46 -Klaus 14:31:05 agenda? 14:31:17 zakim, take up agenda 5 14:31:17 agendum 5. "Metrics W3C Note Status Approval (5m) " taken up [from shadi via sharper] 14:31:30 it's ok for me. 14:31:31 no objections from me 14:31:50 righto 14:31:51 zakim, mute me 14:31:51 Shadi should now be muted 14:32:10 see you later guys 14:32:11 bye 14:32:14 bye guys 14:32:15 cheers 14:32:15 See you. 14:32:15 vivienne has left #rd 14:32:15 goodbye 14:32:17 -giorgio 14:32:18 markel has left #rd 14:32:20 -Shadi 14:32:22 -Shawn 14:32:22 -Justin_Brown 14:32:23 -vivienne 14:32:25 -markel 14:32:25 -peter 14:32:26 -yeliz 14:32:30 -christos 14:32:32 bye 14:32:33 -sharper 14:32:48 markel_ has joined #rd 14:32:51 -luz 14:32:53 WAI_RDWG()9:30AM has ended 14:32:53 Attendees were luz, vivienne, Shawn, Shadi, giorgio, markel, Justin_Brown, Klaus, christos, yeliz, sharper, peter 15:42:31 shadi_ has joined #rd 15:50:57 shadi has joined #rd