IRC log of rd on 2012-08-15

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:31:34 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rd
13:31:34 [RRSAgent]
logging to
13:31:34 [sharper]
zakim, please clear the agenda
13:31:34 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
13:31:35 [Luz]
13:31:36 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
13:31:38 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 7394
13:31:38 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_RDWG()9:30AM scheduled to start now
13:31:39 [trackbot]
Meeting: Research and Development Working Group Teleconference
13:31:39 [sharper]
Chair: Harper_Simon
13:31:39 [trackbot]
Date: 15 August 2012
13:31:39 [sharper]
Agenda+ Welcome & Logistics (Regrets, Agenda Requests, Comments) [sharper]
13:31:39 [sharper]
Agenda+ Text Cust. CfP Approval (5m) - [shawn]
13:31:39 [sharper]
Agenda+ E2R CfP Discussion (25m) - [klaus]
13:31:40 [sharper]
Agenda+ TC and E2R Timelines Approval(10m) [shawn]
13:31:40 [sharper]
Agenda+ Metrics W3C Note Status Approval (5m) [shadi]
13:31:42 [sharper]
Agenda+ Next Topic Discussion (10m) [all]
13:31:44 [sharper]
Agenda+ Issues and Actions (Standing Item): [sharper]
13:31:46 [sharper]
Agenda+ Any Other Business (Standing Item) [sharper]
13:31:48 [sharper]
zakim, save agenda
13:31:55 [Zakim]
ok, sharper, the agenda has been written to
13:31:59 [sharper]
rrsagent, make logs public
13:31:59 [sharper]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:31:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate sharper
13:32:13 [vivienne]
zakim, mute me
13:32:13 [Zakim]
sorry, vivienne, I don't know what conference this is
13:32:16 [giorgio]
giorgio has joined #rd
13:32:18 [sharper]
zakim, take up item 1
13:32:18 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Welcome & Logistics (Regrets, Agenda Requests, Comments)" taken up [from sharper]
13:32:45 [shawn]
zakim, who is on the phone?
13:32:45 [Zakim]
I notice WAI_RDWG()9:30AM has restarted
13:32:46 [Zakim]
On the phone I see luz (muted), ??P9, ??P10, vivienne, ??P12, Shawn, Shadi
13:32:52 [Zakim]
13:32:57 [shadi]
zakim, this is rdwg
13:32:57 [Zakim]
shadi, this was already WAI_RDWG()9:30AM
13:32:58 [Zakim]
ok, shadi; that matches WAI_RDWG()9:30AM
13:32:58 [markel]
markel has joined #rd
13:33:08 [shawn]
zakim, mute me
13:33:08 [Zakim]
Shawn should now be muted
13:33:09 [Luz]
13:33:11 [shadi]
13:33:13 [giorgio]
zakim, ??P15 is giorgio
13:33:13 [Zakim]
+giorgio; got it
13:33:23 [klaus]
zakim, ??10 is me
13:33:23 [Zakim]
sorry, klaus, I do not recognize a party named '??10'
13:33:27 [vivienne]
ack me
13:33:45 [vivienne]
zakim, mute me
13:33:45 [Zakim]
vivienne should now be muted
13:33:47 [Zakim]
13:34:01 [markel]
zakim, ??P16 is markel
13:34:01 [Zakim]
+markel; got it
13:34:14 [Justin_Brown]
zakim, ??p9 is me
13:34:14 [Zakim]
+Justin_Brown; got it
13:34:27 [christos]
zakim, ??P9 is me
13:34:27 [Zakim]
I already had ??P9 as Justin_Brown, christos
13:34:27 [shadi]
zakim, who is on the phone?
13:34:28 [Zakim]
On the phone I see luz (muted), Justin_Brown, ??P10, vivienne (muted), ??P12, Shawn (muted), Shadi, giorgio, markel
13:35:06 [christos]
zakim, ??P10 is me
13:35:06 [Zakim]
+christos; got it
13:35:28 [christos]
zakim mute me
13:35:36 [shawn]
ack me
13:35:47 [christos]
zakim, mute me
13:35:47 [Zakim]
christos should now be muted
13:36:12 [shadi]
zakim, christos is Klaus
13:36:12 [Zakim]
+Klaus; got it
13:36:19 [shadi]
zakim, ??p12 is christos
13:36:19 [Zakim]
+christos; got it
13:36:28 [christos]
zakim, mute me
13:36:28 [Zakim]
christos should now be muted
13:36:36 [christos]
13:36:41 [yeliz]
yeliz has joined #rd
13:36:59 [vivienne]
Hi Luz, so nice to have you with us
13:37:09 [Luz]
Zakim, unmute me
13:37:09 [Zakim]
luz should no longer be muted
13:37:51 [shawn]
Welcome, Luz!
13:38:00 [sharper]
problems with sip again
13:38:13 [markel]
welcome Luz :-)
13:38:20 [vivienne]
ack me
13:38:20 [shawn]
zakim, who is on the phone?
13:38:21 [Zakim]
On the phone I see luz, Justin_Brown, Klaus (muted), vivienne, christos (muted), Shawn (muted), Shadi, giorgio, markel
13:38:25 [Zakim]
13:38:30 [yeliz]
zakim, ??P17 is yeliz
13:38:30 [Zakim]
+yeliz; got it
13:38:41 [yeliz]
zakim, mute me
13:38:41 [Zakim]
yeliz should now be muted
13:38:41 [klaus]
zakim, mute me
13:38:42 [Zakim]
Klaus was already muted, klaus
13:38:55 [klaus]
zakim, unmute me
13:38:55 [Zakim]
Klaus should no longer be muted
13:39:07 [Luz]
Zakim, mute me
13:39:07 [Zakim]
luz should now be muted
13:39:35 [Luz]
Thank you Markel :-)
13:39:49 [Luz]
Thank you Shawn :-)!
13:40:24 [Zakim]
13:40:32 [klaus]
I can hear you but don't know what's on with my mic
13:40:39 [sharper]
zakim, ??P18 is sharper
13:40:39 [Zakim]
+sharper; got it
13:40:58 [christos]
zakim, ack me
13:40:58 [Zakim]
unmuting christos
13:40:59 [vivienne]
zakim, mute me
13:41:00 [Zakim]
I see no one on the speaker queue
13:41:00 [Zakim]
vivienne should now be muted
13:41:08 [Luz]
Thank you Vivienne :-)
13:41:23 [shawn]
ack me
13:41:30 [christos]
zakim, mute me
13:41:30 [Zakim]
christos should now be muted
13:42:16 [shawn]
zakim, who is on the phone?
13:42:16 [Zakim]
On the phone I see luz (muted), Justin_Brown, Klaus, vivienne (muted), christos (muted), Shawn (muted), Shadi, giorgio, markel, yeliz (muted), sharper
13:42:31 [yeliz]
zakim, unmute yeliz
13:42:31 [Zakim]
yeliz should no longer be muted
13:42:50 [shawn]
zakim, who is noisy?
13:42:55 [sharper]
zakim, who is making noise?
13:42:56 [yeliz]
zakim, mute yeliz
13:42:56 [Zakim]
yeliz should now be muted
13:43:07 [Zakim]
shawn, listening for 16 seconds I could not identify any sounds
13:43:20 [markel]
I can hear a car
13:43:23 [yeliz]
Was that me?
13:43:23 [Zakim]
sharper, listening for 13 seconds I heard sound from the following: Shadi (54%), sharper (7%)
13:43:29 [yeliz]
Ohh I have no car around
13:43:29 [yeliz]
13:43:42 [klaus]
zakim, mute me
13:43:42 [Zakim]
Klaus should now be muted
13:43:46 [yeliz]
zakim, unmute yeliz
13:43:46 [Zakim]
yeliz should no longer be muted
13:43:54 [peter]
peter has joined #rd
13:44:15 [yeliz]
zakim, mute me
13:44:16 [Zakim]
yeliz should now be muted
13:44:17 [Luz]
Thank you Giorgio, thank you Yeliz!
13:44:40 [peter]
(Sorry I'm late - only on IRC today)
13:44:42 [shadi]
zakim, mute me
13:44:42 [Zakim]
Shadi should now be muted
13:44:47 [shadi]
scribe: shadi
13:44:57 [Luz]
Thank you Simon.
13:45:17 [shadi]
zakim, take up next
13:45:17 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Text Cust. CfP Approval (5m) -" taken up [from shawn]
13:45:24 [shawn]
ack me
13:45:29 [shadi]
13:45:37 [shadi]
SLH: things changed quite a bit
13:45:50 [shadi] provided excellent and significant suggestions
13:46:09 [shadi]
...thanks to several from the group who provided input too
13:46:26 [shadi] has several sections
13:46:41 [shadi]
...what is on the main page, CfP page, and CfP email
13:46:52 [shadi]
...a couple of points still open for discussion
13:47:03 [shadi]
SH: what is open?
13:47:29 [shadi]
SLH: question on user groups and terminology
13:47:46 [shadi]
...need to be very sensitive
13:47:52 [shadi]
...want to get input on that
13:48:00 [Luz]
13:48:15 [shadi]
ack l
13:48:16 [sharper]
ack l
13:48:32 [shadi]
LR: reply to my comments is fine
13:48:43 [shadi]
...may be good to use "reading disabilities"
13:48:53 [shadi]
ack me
13:49:21 [shawn]
saz: coming along excellent. kudos - esp to co-chairs
13:49:44 [shawn]
... beginning catchy words really nice - easy to skim & get overview
13:49:56 [shawn]
.. plus other refinements
13:50:20 [shawn]
exclustion on optimum format
13:50:54 [shawn]
what are personalize requirements. not sufficiently clear.
13:51:02 [Luz]
13:51:24 [shadi]
zakim, mute me
13:51:24 [Zakim]
Shadi should now be muted
13:51:46 [shadi]
SLH: assumption is that there is no single optimum font
13:52:01 [shawn]
"The following are out of scope of this topic: what is the optimum font and format for default text"
13:52:19 [shawn]
SAZ: request clarification
13:52:24 [vivienne]
13:52:25 [shadi] we need to explain why it is out of scope versus what we mean by that
13:52:27 [vivienne]
ack me
13:52:51 [Luz]
Yes, maybe a link to would help.
13:52:57 [shadi]
VC: perhaps an extra sentence explaining why it is not in scope
13:53:04 [vivienne]
zakim, mute me
13:53:04 [Zakim]
vivienne should now be muted
13:53:23 [shadi]
SLH: Luz also suggests linking to the background
13:53:24 [shadi]
13:53:30 [sharper]
ack s
13:53:31 [shadi]
ack me
13:53:44 [shawn]
slh: agree. will do.
13:53:55 [shadi]
"which of these are necessary requirements for people to be able to read text, and which are optional suggestions to improve readability."
13:54:14 [shawn]
saz: request calrification to ^^^
13:54:40 [shawn]
... effectively
13:54:53 [shawn]
13:55:07 [shawn]
ack me
13:55:13 [sharper]
ack sh
13:55:18 [shadi]
zakim, mute me
13:55:18 [Zakim]
Shadi should now be muted
13:55:42 [shadi]
SAZ: maybe separate between "accessibility need" and "general usability"
13:55:54 [shadi]
SLH: wondering about relative priority
13:56:07 [shadi]
...for example, what WCAG level would it have?
13:56:14 [vivienne]
13:56:20 [vivienne]
ack me
13:56:43 [shadi]
VC: seen something about that in SortSite
13:57:00 [giorgio]
13:57:00 [shawn]
[that wording is from WCAG 1 priority A, AA, AAA ;-]
13:57:04 [shadi]
...differentiate between levels and impact on users
13:57:21 [vivienne]
zakim, mute me
13:57:21 [Zakim]
vivienne should now be muted
13:57:25 [sharper]
ack g
13:57:33 [shadi]
GB: do we need to make that kind of distinction?
13:57:35 [shadi]
13:57:47 [shadi]
...accessibility requirements are contextual
13:57:58 [yeliz]
I agree with Giorgio
13:58:02 [markel]
13:58:04 [yeliz]
13:58:05 [shadi]
...artificial to try to classify
13:58:07 [shadi]
13:58:16 [shawn]
humm, interesting point
13:58:16 [yeliz]
Me too, I wouldn't write them
13:58:17 [shadi]
...I would try to stay away
13:58:49 [shadi]
SH: spent a lot of time refining this
13:59:18 [shadi]
...the more time we spend on this, the less time we have for people to submit
13:59:25 [yeliz]
13:59:28 [yeliz]
13:59:31 [shadi]
...not sure that the benefit of these changes is worth the delay
13:59:31 [markel]
13:59:32 [yeliz]
I think it's ready
13:59:34 [yeliz]
13:59:35 [giorgio]
13:59:38 [klaus]
13:59:39 [christos]
13:59:43 [Justin_Brown]
13:59:43 [sharper]
13:59:56 [shawn]
SH: Do we want to see this again before it goes out ^^^
13:59:58 [peter]
undecided :-)
14:00:29 [shadi]
SLH: can we spend some more time on this?
14:00:51 [giorgio]
yes, I would delet them
14:00:53 [shadi]
...are people suggesting deleting this totally?
14:00:58 [yeliz]
me too
14:00:59 [yeliz]
14:01:04 [sharper]
14:01:07 [Justin_Brown]
14:01:07 [shadi]
14:01:26 [shadi]
ack me
14:02:02 [shawn]
s/ ...are people suggesting deleting this totally?/... should we delete "and which are optional suggestions to improve readability." all together?/
14:02:55 [shawn]
saz: have put a lot of work. has really matured over the last week.
14:03:19 [shawn]
... however, important to have polished calls. they set the tone & frame the following work
14:03:26 [shawn]
... maybe as group, we should review things earlier
14:04:01 [shawn]
... get this kind of input earlier. get ourselves to review things in more detail -- thinking ahead for the upcoming topics
14:04:38 [shawn]
... caution against putting out things that are not well reviwed and maybe less quality , or even conflicting statements or confusing
14:04:54 [shadi]
zakim, mute me
14:04:54 [Zakim]
Shadi should now be muted
14:04:55 [shawn]
... will impact quality of papers submissions and symposium
14:05:33 [shadi]
SH: at a certain point the improvements become quite minute
14:05:44 [shadi]
...glad to see that it is ready to go
14:06:08 [shadi]
...will be a good template for next calls
14:06:28 [shawn]
ack me
14:06:31 [shadi]
RRESOLUTION: CfP ready to go with minor edits, group does not need to see it again
14:06:38 [shadi]
zakim, take up next
14:06:38 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "E2R CfP Discussion (25m) -" taken up [from klaus]
14:06:42 [shawn]
zakim, mute me
14:06:42 [Zakim]
Shawn should now be muted
14:06:50 [klaus]
zakim, unmute me
14:06:50 [Zakim]
Klaus should no longer be muted
14:06:58 [shawn]
a/RRESOLUTION: CfP ready to go with minor edits, group does not need to see it again/RESOLUTION: CfP ready to go with minor edits, group does not need to see it again/
14:07:24 [shadi]
KM: restarted working on Easy to Read
14:07:35 [shadi]
...looking at model setup by Shawn
14:07:44 [shadi]
...gathering Scientific Committee
14:08:04 [shadi]
...focus relates to use of language
14:08:17 [shadi]
...trying to structure what papers we want to see
14:08:49 [shadi]
...looking at what guidelines are there
14:09:10 [shadi]
...and seeing how they could be integrated into standards such as those from WAI
14:09:30 [peter]
(I would like it to be noted on record that my computer hates me deeply)
14:09:39 [shadi]
...also looking at tools, audio-display, use of symbols, use of pictures, and multimedia
14:10:09 [shadi]
...practice and learning
14:10:31 [shadi]
...and finally to look at commonality across different languages
14:10:48 [klaus]
zakim, mute me
14:10:48 [Zakim]
Klaus should now be muted
14:11:02 [markel]
14:11:05 [sharper]
ack m
14:11:52 [shadi]
MV: like the comprehensive list of topics
14:12:01 [shadi]
...but drawing attention and some minor issues
14:12:50 [shadi]
...terminology issue between "tools" and "metrics" to measure readability
14:13:16 [shadi]
...also Flesh and others may have come from an educational context rather than from accessibility/usability
14:13:27 [markel]
Gunning Fog
14:13:50 [shadi]
...otherwise looking quite good
14:14:08 [vivienne]
Here's some info on the levels Markel mentioned:
14:14:18 [shadi]
SH: like structure and like the contents
14:14:27 [shadi]
...may need to be contracted a little
14:14:27 [markel]
Flesh-Kincaid instead of Flesh,Kincaid
14:14:57 [shawn]
q+ to say perhaps it's too broad? maybe more focused?
14:15:01 [shadi]
...list of topics could be tightened a little
14:15:17 [shadi]
...would like to see how this would look in Shawn's new format
14:15:42 [shadi]
...maybe slightly abbreviated
14:16:06 [shadi]
14:16:12 [shawn]
ack me
14:16:13 [Zakim]
shawn, you wanted to say perhaps it's too broad? maybe more focused?
14:16:13 [sharper]
ack shawn
14:16:17 [shawn]
plain langague
14:16:45 [shadi]
SLH: highlighting key points helps skimming
14:16:53 [shadi]
...but may need some more focusing
14:17:03 [shadi]
...was also looking for "plain language" buzz-word
14:17:39 [sharper]
ack shadi
14:17:42 [shadi]
ack me
14:18:48 [Zakim]
14:18:59 [peter]
Zakim, ??P0 is me
14:18:59 [Zakim]
+peter; got it
14:19:05 [peter]
Zakim, mute me
14:19:05 [Zakim]
peter should now be muted
14:19:16 [peter]
*exactly* (better late than never)
14:19:17 [shawn]
saz: [@@] ... maybe categorize - prioritize (no, that's not quite right :)...
14:19:40 [shawn]
.. structure to help people get an overview
14:20:07 [shawn]
what's the goal? what do we want to achieve with this symposium. figure that out, then work from there
14:20:22 [sharper]
zakim, q?
14:20:22 [Zakim]
I see no one on the speaker queue
14:20:25 [klaus]
zakim, unmute me
14:20:25 [Zakim]
Klaus should no longer be muted
14:20:28 [shadi]
zakim, mute me
14:20:28 [Zakim]
Shadi should now be muted
14:20:54 [shadi]
SH: [reads out objectives]
14:21:09 [shawn]
14:21:29 [shadi]
KM: would be happy to say it
14:21:39 [shadi]
...topics were compiled
14:21:53 [shadi]
...wondered if we should restrict the list
14:22:15 [shadi]
...think the core goal would be to come up with a common understanding of what easy-to-read is
14:22:34 [shadi]
...and think about how to integrate them into standards
14:22:48 [shadi]
...because developers are required to deliver easy-to-read
14:23:24 [shadi]
...also the topic of "practice" seems important
14:23:47 [shadi] get people who actually do easy-to-read in practice to give us their experience
14:23:52 [shadi]
14:23:56 [shadi]
14:23:58 [klaus]
zakim, mute me
14:23:58 [Zakim]
Klaus should now be muted
14:23:58 [shawn]
[ /me really interested what papers will come in on this! I think will want to group papers into subtopics for the symposium and proably proceedings. (... also glad that we decided to do text custmoization separately so it doesn't get lost in this broad topic :-)]
14:24:01 [shadi]
ack me
14:24:02 [sharper]
ack sh
14:24:46 [shawn]
saz: agree with that as main focus & goals. bring diff people together, including practioners. develop common understanding of what is e2r in the first place
14:25:01 [shawn]
... if we agre that is the goal of the symposium?
14:25:10 [shawn]
boundaires of e2r
14:25:27 [shawn]
that would help when we are reviewing this draft
14:26:03 [sharper]
zakim, q?
14:26:03 [Zakim]
I see no one on the speaker queue
14:26:19 [shawn]
sh: objectives not really boundaries now
14:26:35 [shawn]
saz: maybe boundaries not the right word. [@@misssed]
14:26:43 [shawn]
different ways to look at this
14:26:58 [shawn]
look at diffreent aspect - but towards a goal
14:27:16 [shadi]
zakim, mute me
14:27:16 [Zakim]
Shadi should now be muted
14:27:29 [shawn]
s/ look at diffreent aspect - but towards a goal/ look at different aspects (e.g., tools, etc.) - but always towards a specific goal/
14:27:34 [klaus]
zakim, unmute me
14:27:34 [Zakim]
Klaus should no longer be muted
14:27:38 [shadi]
SH: agree that this is the focus?
14:27:47 [shadi]
KM: yes, agree to it very much
14:28:09 [klaus]
zakim, mute me
14:28:09 [Zakim]
Klaus should now be muted
14:28:35 [klaus]
zakim, unmute me
14:28:35 [Zakim]
Klaus should no longer be muted
14:28:48 [shadi]
SH: can we get an update by next week?
14:29:14 [klaus]
zakim, mute me
14:29:14 [Zakim]
Klaus should now be muted
14:29:18 [shadi]
KM: will try to send out an update by the end of this week, and ask the group to provide feedback
14:29:46 [shadi]
SH: would like to get this in good shape by next week's meeting
14:29:58 [shadi]
...dedicate most of next meeting to finishing this
14:30:25 [shadi]
zakim, take up next
14:30:25 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "TC and E2R Timelines Approval(10m) " taken up [from shawn]
14:30:29 [peter]
(did we cover the mobile note? or did anyone ask)
14:30:31 [shadi]
ack me
14:30:39 [klaus]
sorry have to leave - bye
14:30:46 [Zakim]
14:31:05 [shawn]
14:31:17 [shawn]
zakim, take up agenda 5
14:31:17 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "Metrics W3C Note Status Approval (5m) " taken up [from shadi via sharper]
14:31:30 [giorgio]
it's ok for me.
14:31:31 [markel]
no objections from me
14:31:50 [peter]
14:31:51 [shadi]
zakim, mute me
14:31:51 [Zakim]
Shadi should now be muted
14:32:10 [vivienne]
see you later guys
14:32:11 [giorgio]
14:32:14 [markel]
bye guys
14:32:15 [peter]
14:32:15 [Luz]
See you.
14:32:15 [vivienne]
vivienne has left #rd
14:32:15 [christos]
14:32:17 [Zakim]
14:32:18 [markel]
markel has left #rd
14:32:20 [Zakim]
14:32:22 [Zakim]
14:32:22 [Zakim]
14:32:23 [Zakim]
14:32:25 [Zakim]
14:32:25 [Zakim]
14:32:26 [Zakim]
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14:32:32 [yeliz]
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14:32:48 [markel_]
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WAI_RDWG()9:30AM has ended
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Attendees were luz, vivienne, Shawn, Shadi, giorgio, markel, Justin_Brown, Klaus, christos, yeliz, sharper, peter
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