See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 08 August 2012
I can scribe.
<davidwood> scribenick: pfps
<gavinc> Not so much, http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-07-25 404 :(
<gavinc> also http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-07-11 not so much :(
david: last two minutes are not ready
<gavinc> 2012.07.25
<sandro> https://www.w3.org/2009/CommonScribe/panel/
gregg: 11 July minutes are OK,
except that they don't identify markus
... I'll try to fix them up
<sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-07-25
Both minutes appear to be OK to me.
<sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-07-25-v1.html#line0097
david: is there a proposal from the straw poll on inverse in Turtle?
gavin: no, and no action
david: will you take an action?
gavin: OK
<davidwood> ACTION: Gavinc to create a proposal for inverse property syntax in Turtle [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/08/08-rdf-wg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Gavinc
<davidwood> ACTION: Gavin to create a proposal for inverse property syntax in Turtle [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/08/08-rdf-wg-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-180 - Create a proposal for inverse property syntax in Turtle [on Gavin Carothers - due 2012-08-15].
<PatH> I'll have a peppermlnt, thanks.
<gavinc> Scribe problem: the name 'mlnt' does not match any of the 52 active names.
<gkellogg> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-07-11
<PatH> sounds like the olympics.
Now 11 July minutes look fine.
david: Any problems with 11 July minutes?
25 July minutes do not call out the straw pool
<gavinc> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-07-25#line0099
sandro: you can use the line links
<sandro> eg http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-07-25#line0097
Proposed: accept minutes for 11 and 25 July
Subtopic: Action item review
david: my action is done, close?
<sandro> +1
OK
Close action 177
<sandro> resolved: accept minutes for 11 and 25 July
<davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open
<sandro> action-177?
<trackbot> ACTION-177 -- David Wood to create blog post on swig blog for Turtle LC -- due 2012-07-18 -- CLOSED
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/177
pat: I claim success on action 178!
<davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/178
<ivan> Pat's mail on the provenance issue: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Aug/0014.html
pat: I'll fix up the action status and include the email link.
<sandro> https://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/users/my
<mlnt> thanks david
Subtopic: next meeting
david: 22 Aug, then 5 Sept, then
weekly
... 22 Aug will be on named graphs
SubTopic: F2F
<PatH> yeh, that *hurt*.
<gavinc> Is there still no remote possibility at TPAC?
F2F is at TPAC (29-30 Oct)
david: start wiki page on F2F
<ivan> Participants should also register on https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/TPAC2012/
<scribe> ACTION: david to start wiki page for F2F [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/08/08-rdf-wg-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-181 - Start wiki page for F2F [on David Wood - due 2012-08-15].
david: If you are attending in
person please register for TPAC and also pay (separate
page)
... sandro/ivan remote participation?
sandro: phone bridge via speaker phone and usual machinery
david: should we have a remote meeting room (US?)
sandro: no one will be at MIT
<PatH> In the past, skype with video has been useful.
david: I'll ask on in the wiki page and ask who would like to be in a remote meeting
arnaud: note that we can't change the meeting time
david: sure, so it'll be very early in the US
<PatH> share the jetlag. Seems kind of socialist to me.
david: volunteers?
path: I checked some issues, but I don't know whether that it a review
david: we owe the PWG a formal review, any volunteers?
pat: what is a formal review
david: at least everything
relevant to us, but maybe everything
... anyone can comment
... the RDF WG should have a formal response, however
david: gavin, how did you set up LC tracking
gavin: poorly, as I had problems with connecting
david: it is important that
*everyone* gets a response, but an entire thread can have a
single response, as long as everyone is CC'd
... any non-editorial issues need to be highlighted so the WG
looks at it
gavin: only one so far is inverses
ivan: when we come to PR we need an overview for all comments, so tracking using W3C resources can help
david: I had proposed to use tracker with a special product for Turtle LC
ivan: OK
... adding inverse properties will likely trigger a second
LC
david: it would be nice if we can get a second LC started before the first LC ends
ivan: process probably requires second LC start after the first one ends
sandro: do we need to wait? It would be odd, but why would anyone be bothered?
<PatH> +1 sandro
macted: if there is another change, then it might trigger a third last call
Gavin: inverses may trigger a lot of comments
<sandro> (gavin is the person talking other than Ivan, David, and me)
david: did anyone ask Dave Beckett, he had an opinion on no changes
gavin: Dave felt that changes should be only for major pain points, evidenced by screaming
sandro: It appears that inverse meets the bar
<SteveH> I'm not convinced it's good idea either FWIW
sandro: If people add inverse properties solely to get the effect of inverse Turtle lines then that is good evidence
<AndyS> The divergence from SPARQL (Update) is a cost.
<PatH> And RDFa effectively has inverse and it works fine.
gavin: there is no implementation response, and people use inverses even when the syntax does support inverted predicates
<Zakim> manu, you wanted to ask about hooking JSON-LD issue tracker up to public-rdf-comments (new topic)
<gavinc> rev is NOT a good example of people using it :P
<davidwood> manu, we will discuss that topic next
<manu> Also, the WHATWG /hates/ @rev
ivan: RDFa has inverses, but it is rarely used
<PatH> I use it all the time. Maybe I am wierd.
ivan: I found it useful in a few cases
<manu> and Digital Bazaar has found that @rev is very useful.
gavin: I can't explain @rev in RDFa
<davidwood> 3 Round Stones and Callimachus users make great use of @rev
<manu> Their reason is that "regular authors" don't understand what @rev does...
<manu> (which is true)
ivan: so it's rarely used, and then only by experts
<manu> also... "regular authors" don't understand... WebGL, Web Audio, Canvas, <i> vs. <em>, etc.
<MacTed> "when you want it, you *really* want it..."
<PatH> We have three hard use cases versus a mess of anecdote. Sorry, but thats the way it seems.
gavin: I don't see any examples of reverse in N3 or Manchester
<SteveH> it's sugar, so there's no situation where you can /need/ it
<SteveH> though it may make your text look neater
<AndyS> :x^:p is [:p :x] and is in the subject or object position.
david: syntactic sugar for reverse can be essential if you can't write them the wright way around
<PatH> lol
SteveH: you can always (in Turtle) flip things around
david: you can't always do this if you don't control the data
<AndyS> I note this does not answer the original commenters request nor adopts N3.
SteveH: I don't see this, but let's discuss off-line
ivan: what's the route to the sea
david: waiting for gavin's proposal
<PatH> downhill, usually.
andy: adding reverse doesn't answer the original comment
david: let's await gavin's proposal
<AndyS> See "Paths" in http://www.w3.org/TeamSubmission/n3/
<gavinc> WG said ^, TimBL said is .. of
ivan: it is the WG's responsibility to decide what to do
<sandro> echo ":a is :b of :c." | python swap/cwm.py -quiet
<sandro> @prefix : <#> .
<sandro> :c :b :a .
<davidwood> http://www.w3.org/TeamSubmission/n3/#path
andy: N3 has something different - paths
sandro: caret is different from ... is ... of
<PatH> caret?
<SteveH> ^
<gavinc> Don't need @ "If no @keywords directive is given, qualified names all have colons, and unquoted alphanumerics are all keywords. Only the keywords is, of, and a may be used naked."
david: andy, does TimBL want both bang and caret?
andy: don't know, I believe that it is is/of
gavin: the WG didn't like is/of
sandro: caret is very close to is/of where it can occur
andy: yes
<PatH> So it has come to this, exploding carrots.
gavin: no implementation experience, even N3 is different
andy: is/of has a NL flavour, which caret doesn't, so there is a big difference
sandro: the WG didn't like an NL approach
<gavinc> "The reverse traversal, x^p means [ p x ] . For either forward or backward traversal, p is a property, and x can be a whole path with both ! and ^ in it."
<AndyS> :x^:p!:q :prop 123 .
andy: [N3 is much more complex]
ivan: our caret is part of N3 reverse traversal
<gavinc> "I would like to formalize the request I have made at intervals to include the is ... of syntax as in N3 in Turtle."
sandro: I would like to respond that caret does something similar to SPARQL
gavin: can we first respond directly to the commenter to see if our solution is acceptable
david: there are two different solutions here
<PatH> My understanding is that none of these syntaxes actually *create* the inverse property, they are all syntactic ways to indicate a p b while writing some thing with the a and b in the reverse order.
<PatH> DO I have that wrong?
<AndyS> yes
<PatH> OK, ta.
sandro: they are both syntactic sugar and neither creates a new property
<AndyS> :a ^:p :b .
<AndyS> :b :p :a .
andy: which means that Turtle is further from the triples
<PatH> That seems like an argument against any kind of parsing at all.
gavin: there is no way to regenerate the carets
<SteveH> the store could tag triples that were inverse, but lets not go there
<PatH> indeed.
<zwu2> no tagging please
david: what to tell Gavin?
ivan: let's tell Tim that the NL proposal won't fly; that we are considering using caret, which clashes with N3
<cygri> +1 to ivan's proposal
david: so let's wait for a
proposal until we get information back from Tim
... gavin, can you respond to Tim
gavin: OK
david: can we hook up the Jason LD tracker to rdf comments?
??: it should be possible using some automated filter
??: we are using git-hub currently
sandro: will this push all JSON-LD emails into the WG mailing list
Gregg: no, we'll have a filter in
the middle
... right now comments are supposed to go to rdf-comments, but
people can directly comment on the issues in the tracker
sandro: a manual approach would be to just tell posters to also send to rdf-comments
<gavinc> No, it doesn't work if it goes via a mailing list
<mlnt> you have to have a GitHub account to be able to reply by mail
gregg: we would have to test the various situations
<gavinc> do we have an -archive for the RDF-WG?
sandro: the W3C process is that the everything ends up on the email list
<sandro> sandro: I'd suggest once a week summarizing the github activity to public-rdf-comments
manu: we could do a summary, but an automated link might be closer and better
<PatH> JSON really makes things so very simple. I love it.
sandro: if you need to follow the JSON-LD stuff you really need to be on github, so a summary might be best
<gkellogg> +0
<cygri> -1
<ivan> -1
<sandro> strawpoll: +1 if you want the mailing lsits bridged -1 if not
<manu> +1 to have it reflected
<davidwood> +0
<gavinc> -0.1 to more github emails
<mlnt> +1
<AndyS> 0
<SteveH> -1
<ivan> to be clear: it may be good, but it leads to too much confusions
gregg: OK, we'll do the summary method
sandro: the -comments list needs to get anything that is non-editorial
gregg: OK
<sandro> sandro: excellent
david: done
... 22 Aug, "Return to Named Place"
gavin: agenda request, n-triples
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