14:55:39 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
14:55:39 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/08/08-rdf-wg-irc
14:55:41 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:55:41 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdf-wg
14:55:43 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
14:55:43 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
14:55:44 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:55:44 <trackbot> Date: 08 August 2012
14:56:33 <SteveH__> SteveH__ has joined #rdf-wg
14:57:02 <cygri> cygri has joined #rdf-wg
14:57:44 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started
14:57:50 <Zakim> +??P8
14:57:55 <AndyS> zakim, ??P8 is me
14:57:55 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
14:58:08 <Arnaud> Arnaud has joined #rdf-wg
14:58:22 <Zakim> +??P9
14:58:27 <SteveH__> Zakim, ??P9 is me
14:58:27 <Zakim> +SteveH__; got it
14:58:59 <SteveH> Zakim, SteveH__ is me
14:58:59 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it
14:59:17 <Zakim> + +1.707.861.aaaa
14:59:24 <gavinc> Zakim, aaaa is me
14:59:24 <Zakim> +gavinc; got it
14:59:50 <Zakim> +David
14:59:53 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
14:59:53 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
14:59:55 <Zakim> +Ivan
15:00:06 <ivan> zakim, mute me
15:00:06 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted
15:00:07 <Zakim> +sandro
15:00:17 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-wg
15:00:24 <cgreer> cgreer has joined #rdf-wg
15:00:24 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:00:25 <AndyS> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:00:26 <Zakim> On the phone I see AndyS, SteveH, gavinc, David, Ivan (muted), sandro, [IBM]
15:00:32 <Zakim> +mhausenblas
15:00:38 <cygri> zakim, mhausenblas is temporarily me
15:00:38 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
15:00:48 <Zakim> +Arnaud
15:00:49 <Zakim> +??P17
15:01:00 <pfps> I can scribe.
15:01:13 <AZ> Zakim, ??P17 is me
15:01:13 <Zakim> +AZ; got it
15:01:45 <davidwood> scribenick: pfps
15:02:01 <gavinc> Not so much, http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-07-25 404 :(
15:02:17 <gavinc> also http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-07-11 not so much :(
15:02:24 <pfps> Topic: Administration
15:02:50 <PatH> PatH has joined #rdf-wg
15:02:56 <pfps> david: last two minutes are not ready
15:02:57 <Zakim> +??P3
15:03:07 <gkellogg> zakim, I am ??P3
15:03:07 <Zakim> +gkellogg; got it
15:03:07 <AlexHall> AlexHall has joined #rdf-wg
15:03:15 <Zakim> + +1.443.212.aabb
15:03:17 <gavinc> 2012.07.25
15:03:18 <sandro> https://www.w3.org/2009/CommonScribe/panel/
15:03:21 <AlexHall> zakim, aabb is me
15:03:21 <Zakim> +AlexHall; got it
15:03:55 <Zakim> +[OpenLink]
15:04:02 <MacTed> Zakim, [OpenLink] is temporarily me
15:04:02 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
15:04:04 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
15:04:04 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
15:04:18 <Zakim> +PatH
15:04:20 <pfps> gregg: 11 July minutes are OK, except that they don't identify markus
15:04:35 <pfps> gregg:  I'll try to fix them up
15:04:43 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-07-25
15:05:01 <zwu2> zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg
15:05:19 <zwu2> zakim, code?
15:05:19 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), zwu2
15:05:41 <pfps> Both minutes appear to be OK to me.
15:05:53 <Zakim> + +1.707.318.aacc
15:06:07 <cgreer> zakim, aacc is me
15:06:07 <Zakim> +cgreer; got it
15:06:27 <Zakim> +??P28
15:06:31 <manu> zakim, I am ??P28
15:06:31 <Zakim> +manu; got it
15:06:37 <ivan> q+
15:06:41 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-07-25-v1.html#line0097
15:06:48 <pfps> david: is there a proposal from the straw poll on inverse in Turtle?
15:06:54 <pfps> gavin: no, and no action
15:07:16 <pfps> david: will you take an action?
15:07:23 <pfps> gavin: OK
15:08:11 <Zakim> + +1.650.265.aadd
15:08:14 <davidwood> Action: Gavinc to create a proposal for inverse property syntax in Turtle
15:08:14 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Gavinc
15:08:23 <zwu2> zakim, +1.650.265.aadd is me
15:08:23 <Zakim> +zwu2; got it
15:08:29 <zwu2> zakim, mute me
15:08:29 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted
15:08:36 <davidwood> Action: Gavin to create a proposal for inverse property syntax in Turtle
15:08:37 <trackbot> Created ACTION-180 - Create a proposal for inverse property syntax in Turtle [on Gavin Carothers - due 2012-08-15].
15:09:48 <PatH> I'll have a peppermlnt, thanks.
15:10:23 <gavinc> Scribe problem: the name 'mlnt' does not match any of the 52 active names.
15:11:16 <ivan> zakim, mute me
15:11:16 <Zakim> Ivan was already muted, ivan
15:11:44 <gkellogg> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-07-11
15:11:49 <PatH> sounds like the olympics.
15:12:45 <pfps> Now 11 July minutes look fine.
15:13:02 <pfps> david: Any problems with 11 July minutes?
15:13:21 <pfps> 25 July minutes do not call out the straw pool
15:13:35 <gavinc> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-07-25#line0099
15:13:35 <pfps> sandro: you can use the line links
15:13:36 <mlnt> mlnt has joined #rdf-wg
15:13:51 <sandro> eg http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-07-25#line0097
15:13:59 <pfps> Proposed: accept minutes for 11 and 25 July
15:14:13 <pfps> Subtopic: Action item review
15:14:24 <pfps> david: my action is done, close?
15:14:25 <sandro> +1
15:14:26 <pfps> OK
15:14:36 <pfps> Close action 77
15:14:43 <mlnt> Zakim, what's the code?
15:14:43 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), mlnt
15:15:18 <sandro> resolved: accept minutes for 11 and 25 July
15:15:43 <pfps> s/77/177/
15:15:52 <davidwood> Topic: Actions
15:15:53 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open
15:15:54 <sandro> action-177?
15:15:54 <trackbot> ACTION-177 -- David Wood to create blog post on swig blog for Turtle LC -- due 2012-07-18 -- CLOSED
15:15:54 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/177
15:16:39 <pfps> pat: I claim success on action 178!
15:16:40 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/178
15:17:16 <ivan> Pat's mail on the provenance issue: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Aug/0014.html
15:17:19 <pfps> pat:  I'll fix up the action status and include the email link.
15:17:44 <Zakim> +??P35
15:17:51 <sandro> https://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/users/my
15:18:26 <davidwood> Zakim, P35 is mlnt
15:18:26 <Zakim> sorry, davidwood, I do not recognize a party named 'P35'
15:18:41 <davidwood> Zakim, ??P35 is mlnt
15:18:41 <Zakim> +mlnt; got it
15:18:57 <mlnt> thanks david
15:19:14 <pfps> Subtopic: next meeting
15:19:29 <pfps> david: 22 Aug, then 5 Sept, then weakly
15:19:42 <pfps> david: 22 Aug will be on named graphs
15:20:06 <pfps> SubTopic: F2F
15:20:11 <AZ> s/weakly/weekly/
15:20:24 <PatH> yeh, that *hurt*.
15:20:55 <gavinc> Is there still no remote possibility at TPAC?
15:21:04 <pfps> F2F is at TPAC (29-30 Oct)
15:21:11 <pfps> david: start wiki page on F2F
15:21:24 <ivan> Participants should also register on https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/TPAC2012/
15:21:33 <pfps> Action david: start wiki page for F2F
15:21:33 <trackbot> Created ACTION-181 - Start wiki page for F2F [on David Wood - due 2012-08-15].
15:22:36 <pfps> david:  If you are attending in person please register for TPAC and also pay (separate page)
15:22:48 <pfps> david: sandro/ivan remote participation?
15:23:00 <pfps> sandro: phone bridge via speaker phone and usual machinery
15:23:14 <pfps> david: should we have a remote meeting room (US?)
15:23:23 <pfps> sandro: no one will be at MIT
15:23:46 <PatH> In the past, skype with video has been useful.
15:23:52 <pfps> david: I'll ask on in the wiki page and ask who would like to be in a remote meeting
15:24:21 <pfps> arnaud: note that we can't change the meeting time
15:24:56 <pfps> david: sure, so it'll be very early in the US
15:25:03 <PatH> share the jetlag. Seems kind of socialist to me. 
15:25:32 <pfps> Topic: Provenance LC reviews
15:25:37 <pfps> david: volunteers?
15:25:52 <pfps> path: I checked some issues, but I don't know whether that it a review
15:26:10 <pfps> david: we owe the PWG a formal review, any volunteers?
15:26:29 <ivan> q+
15:26:37 <pfps> pat: what is a formal review
15:26:49 <pfps> david: at least everything relevant to us, but maybe everything
15:26:58 <pfps> david: anyone can comment
15:27:08 <ivan> q-
15:27:26 <pfps> david: the RDF WG should have a formal response, however
15:28:06 <pfps> Topic: Turtle LB
15:28:14 <pfps> Topic: Turtle LC
15:28:26 <pfps> david: gavin, how did you set up LC tracking
15:28:39 <pfps> gavin: poorly, as I had problems with connecting
15:29:08 <ivan> q+
15:29:15 <pfps> david: it is important that *everyone* gets a response, but an entire thread can have a single response, as long as everyone is CC'd
15:29:35 <davidwood> ack ivan
15:29:39 <pfps> david: any non-editorial issues need to be highlighted so the WG looks at it
15:29:46 <pfps> gavin: only one so far is inverses
15:30:25 <pfps> ivan: when we come to PR we need an overview for all comments, so tracking using W3C resources can help
15:30:47 <pfps> david: I had proposed to use tracker with a special product for Turtle LC
15:31:05 <pfps> ivan: OK
15:31:16 <pfps> ivan: adding inverse properties will likely trigger a second LC
15:31:31 <manu> q+ to ask about hooking JSON-LD issue tracker up to public-rdf-comments (new topic)
15:31:47 <pfps> david: it would be nice if we can get a second LC started before the first LC ends
15:32:04 <pfps> ivan: process probably requires second LC start after the first one ends
15:32:29 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
15:32:29 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
15:32:37 <pfps> sandro: do we need to wait?  It would be odd, but why would anyone be bothered?
15:32:42 <PatH>  +1 sandro
15:33:04 <pfps> macted: if there is another change, then it might trigger a third last call
15:33:39 <pfps> ??: inverses may trigger a lot of comments
15:33:41 <sandro> (gavin is the person talking other than Ivan, David, and me)
15:33:45 <sandro> s/??/Gavin/
15:34:13 <pfps> david: did anyone ask Dave Beckett, he had an opinion on no changes
15:34:35 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
15:34:35 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
15:35:18 <pfps> gavin: Dave felt that changes should be only for major pain points, evidenced by screaming
15:35:29 <pfps> sandro:  It appears that inverse meets the bar
15:35:38 <SteveH> I'm not convinced it's good idea either FWIW
15:36:32 <pfps> sandro:  If people add inverse properties solely to get the effect of inverse Turtle lines then that is good evidence
15:36:34 <AndyS> The divergence from SPARQL (Update) is a cost.
15:36:38 <PatH> And RDFa effectively has inverse and it works fine.
15:37:22 <pfps> gavin: there is no implementation response, and people use inverses even when the syntax does support inverted predicates
15:37:26 <davidwood> q?
15:37:26 <sandro> q?
15:37:26 <AndyS> q?
15:37:33 <davidwood> ack manu
15:37:33 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to ask about hooking JSON-LD issue tracker up to public-rdf-comments (new topic)
15:38:00 <gavinc> rev is NOT a good example of people using it :P
15:38:07 <davidwood> manu, we will discuss that topic next
15:38:12 <manu> Also, the WHATWG /hates/ @rev
15:38:15 <pfps> ivan: RDFa has inverses, but it is rarely used
15:38:21 <PatH> I use it all the time. Maybe I am wierd.
15:38:22 <pfps> ivan: I found it useful in a few cases
15:38:25 <manu> and Digital Bazaar has found that @rev is very useful.
15:38:46 <pfps> gavin: I can't explain @rev in RDFa
15:38:51 <davidwood> 3 Round Stones and Callimachus users make great use of @rev
15:38:51 <manu> Their reason is that "regular authors" don't understand what @rev does...
15:38:55 <manu> (which is true)
15:39:03 <pfps> ivan: so it's rarely used, and then only by experts
15:39:17 <manu> also... "regular authors" don't understand... WebGL, Web Audio, Canvas, <i> vs. <em>, etc.
15:39:20 <MacTed> "when you want it, you *really* want it..."
15:39:35 <PatH> We have three hard use cases versus a mess of anecdote. Sorry, but thats the way it seems.
15:40:05 <pfps> gavin: I don't see any examples of reverse in N3 or Manchester
15:40:32 <SteveH> it's sugar, so there's no situation where you can /need/ it
15:40:39 <SteveH> though it may make your text look neater
15:41:19 <AndyS> :x^:p is [:p :x] and is in the subject or object position.
15:42:18 <pfps> david: syntactic sugar for reverse can be essential if you can't write them the wright way around
15:42:28 <PatH> lol
15:42:48 <pfps> ??: you can always (in Turtle)  flip things around
15:43:05 <pfps> david: you can't always do this if you don't control the data
15:43:19 <AndyS> I note this does not answer the original commenters request nor adopts N3.
15:43:23 <pfps> ??: I don't see this, but let's discuss off-line
15:43:27 <pfps> s/??/SteveH/
15:43:31 <AndyS> s/??/SteveH/
15:43:38 <pfps> ivan: what's the route to the sea
15:43:54 <pfps> david: waiting for gavin's proposal
15:43:58 <PatH> downhill, usually.
15:44:16 <pfps> andy: adding reverse doesn't answer the original comment
15:44:26 <pfps> david: let's await gavin's proposal
15:44:39 <AndyS> See "Paths" in http://www.w3.org/TeamSubmission/n3/
15:44:51 <gavinc> WG said ^, TimBL said is .. of 
15:45:18 <pfps> ivan: it is the WG's responsibility to decide what to do
15:45:25 <sandro> echo ":a is :b of :c." | python swap/cwm.py -quiet
15:45:25 <sandro>      @prefix : <#> .
15:45:25 <sandro>     
15:45:25 <sandro>     :c     :b :a .
15:45:45 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/TeamSubmission/n3/#path
15:45:50 <pfps> andy: N3 has something different - paths
15:46:07 <pfps> sandro: carrot is different from ... is ... of
15:46:21 <PatH> caret?
15:46:33 <SteveH> ^
15:46:43 <gavinc> Don't need @ "If no @keywords directive is given, qualified names all have colons, and unquoted alphanumerics are all keywords. Only the keywords is, of, and a may be used naked."
15:46:50 <pfps> david: andy, does Time want both bang and caret?
15:46:57 <MacTed> s/carrot is different/caret is different/
15:47:10 <pfps> andy: don't know, I believe that it is is/of
15:47:14 <MacTed> s/Time/TimBL/
15:47:18 <pfps> gavin: the WG didn't like is/of
15:47:40 <pfps> sandro: caret is very close to is/of where it can occur
15:47:52 <pfps> andy: yes
15:47:59 <PatH> So it has come to this, exploding carrots.
15:49:00 <pfps> gavin: no implementation experience, even N3 is different
15:49:27 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
15:49:27 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
15:49:51 <pfps> andy: is/of has a NL flavour, which caret doesn't, so there is a big difference
15:50:21 <pfps> sandro: the WG didn't like an NL approach
15:51:03 <gavinc> "The reverse traversal, x^p means [ p x ] . For either forward or backward traversal, p is a property, and x can be a whole path with both ! and ^ in it."
15:51:21 <AndyS> :x^:p!:q   :prop 123 .
15:51:46 <pfps> andy: [N3 is much more complex]
15:52:19 <pfps> ivan: our caret is part of N3 reverse traversal
15:52:23 <gavinc> "I would like to formalize the request I have made at intervals to include the     is ... of syntax as in N3 in Turtle."
15:53:03 <pfps> sandro: I would like to respond that caret does something similar to SPARQL
15:53:26 <pfps> gavin: can we first respond directly to the commenter to see if our solution is acceptable
15:54:10 <pfps> david: there are two different solutions here
15:54:27 <PatH> My understanding is that none of these syntaxes actually *create* the inverse property, they are all syntactic ways to indicate a p b while writing some thing with the a and b in the reverse order. 
15:54:49 <PatH> DO I have that wrong?
15:55:00 <AndyS> yes
15:55:02 <PatH> OK, ta.
15:55:21 <pfps> sandro: they are both syntactic sugar and neither creates a new property
15:55:50 <AndyS> :a ^:p :b .
15:55:56 <AndyS> :b :p :a .
15:56:26 <pfps> andy: which means that Turtle is further from the triples
15:56:49 <PatH> That seems like an argument against any kind of parsing at all. 
15:56:55 <pfps> gavin: there is no way to regenerate the carets
15:57:19 <SteveH> the store could tag triples that were inverse, but lets not go there
15:57:33 <PatH> indeed.
15:57:37 <Zakim> +ericP
15:57:44 <zwu2> no tagging please
15:58:04 <davidwood> q?
15:58:18 <pfps> david: what to tell Gavin?
15:59:07 <pfps> ivan: let's tell Tim that the NL proposal won't fly; that we are considering using caret, which clashes with N3
15:59:18 <cygri> +1 to ivan's proposal
16:00:41 <pfps> david: so let's wait for a proposal until we get information back from Tim
16:00:48 <pfps> david: gavin, can you respond to Tim
16:00:56 <pfps> gavin: OK
16:01:07 <pfps> Topic: Jason LD comments
16:01:22 <davidwood> s/Jason/JSON/
16:01:26 <pfps> david: can we hook up the Jason LD tracker to rdf comments?
16:02:26 <pfps> ??: it should be possible using some automated filter
16:02:56 <pfps> ??: we are using git-hub currently
16:03:22 <ivan> zakim, mute me
16:03:22 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted
16:03:40 <pfps> sandro:  will this push all JSON-LD emails into the WG mailing list
16:03:54 <pfps> ??: no, we'll have a filter in the middle
16:04:06 <ivan> s/??/Gregg/
16:04:47 <pfps> gregg: right now comments are supposed to go to rdf-comments, but people can directly comment on the issues in the tracker
16:04:55 <manu> manu has joined #rdf-wg
16:05:10 <pfps> sandro:  a manual approach would be to just tell posters to also send to rdf-comments
16:05:56 <gavinc> No, it doesn't work if it goes via a mailing list
16:06:04 <mlnt> you have to have a GitHub account to be able to reply by mail
16:06:14 <pfps> gregg: we would have to test the various situations
16:06:37 <gavinc> do we have an -archive for the RDF-WG?
16:07:06 <pfps> sandro: the W3C process is that the everything ends up on the email list
16:07:23 <Zakim> -zwu2
16:07:26 <sandro> sandro: I'd suggest once a week summarizing the github activity to public-rdf-comments
16:08:31 <pfps> manu: we could do a summary, but an automated link might be closer and better 
16:09:01 <PatH> JSON really makes things so very simple. I love it. 
16:09:11 <pfps> sandro: if you need to follow the JSON-LD stuff you really need to be on github, so a summary might be best
16:09:16 <gkellogg> +0
16:09:17 <cygri> -1
16:09:18 <ivan> -1
16:09:18 <sandro> strawpoll:  +1 if you want the mailing lsits bridged   -1 if not
16:09:18 <manu> +1 to have it reflected
16:09:20 <davidwood> +0
16:09:21 <gavinc> -0.1 to more github emails
16:09:23 <mlnt> +1
16:09:25 <AndyS> 0
16:09:29 <SteveH> -1
16:09:38 <ivan> to be clear: it may be good, but it leads to too much confusions
16:09:59 <pfps> gregg: OK, we'll do the summary method
16:10:39 <pfps> sandro: the -comments list needs to get anything that is non-editorial
16:11:04 <pfps> gregg:  OK
16:11:12 <sandro> sandro: excellent
16:11:16 <pfps> Topic: AOB
16:11:29 <pfps> david: done
16:12:00 <pfps> david:  22 Aug, "Return to Named Place"
16:12:18 <pfps> gavin: agenda request, n-triples
16:12:38 <ivan> zakim, unmute me
16:12:38 <Zakim> Ivan should no longer be muted
16:12:43 <pfps> rrsagent, create minutes
16:12:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/08/08-rdf-wg-minutes.html pfps
16:13:12 <Zakim> -MacTed
16:13:17 <Zakim> -cgreer
16:13:18 <Zakim> -sandro
16:13:18 <Zakim> -PatH
16:13:18 <Zakim> -Arnaud
16:13:19 <Zakim> -SteveH
16:13:19 <Zakim> -Ivan
16:13:19 <Zakim> -David
16:13:21 <Zakim> -ericP
16:13:22 <AlexHall> AlexHall has left #rdf-wg
16:13:24 <Zakim> -AlexHall
16:13:25 <Zakim> -mlnt
16:13:28 <Zakim> -gkellogg
16:13:30 <Zakim> -gavinc
16:13:31 <Zakim> -AZ
16:13:35 <Zakim> -AndyS
16:13:37 <Zakim> -cygri
16:13:44 <manu> zakim, who is on the call?
16:13:45 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IBM], manu
16:13:51 <manu> zakim, disconnect manu
16:13:51 <Zakim> manu is being disconnected
16:13:53 <Zakim> -manu
16:13:53 <pfps> sandro: the minutes have an empty present, what needs to be done?
16:13:55 <AndyS> ADJOURNED
16:14:20 <sandro> you can leave that alone, if "seen" seems to be right.   If it's not, override it by adding a PRESENT line.
16:14:26 <davidwood> pfps, please see the scribes notes on the top of http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Scribes
16:15:14 <Arnaud> I don't know who's listed as calling from IBM but it isn't me
16:15:22 <pfps> me?
16:28:46 <Zakim> -[IBM]
16:28:47 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended
16:28:47 <Zakim> Attendees were AndyS, SteveH, +1.707.861.aaaa, gavinc, David, Ivan, sandro, [IBM], cygri, Arnaud, AZ, gkellogg, +1.443.212.aabb, AlexHall, MacTed, PatH, +1.707.318.aacc, cgreer,
16:28:47 <Zakim> ... manu, zwu2, mlnt, ericP
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