IRC log of css on 2012-08-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:18:51 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
15:18:56 [glazou]
Zakim, this will be Style
15:18:56 [Zakim]
ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 42 minutes
15:19:02 [glazou]
RRSAgent, make logs public
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Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
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15:58:15 [glazou]
Zakim, ??P43 is me
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+glazou; got it
15:58:36 [Zakim]
+ +1.604.312.aaaa
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15:59:00 [rbetts]
Zakim, aaaa is me.
15:59:00 [Zakim]
+rbetts; got it
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+ +1.408.636.aabb
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Zakim, aabb is me
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+smfr; got it
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16:05:53 [arronei_]
zakim, microsoft has me
16:05:53 [Zakim]
+arronei_; got it
16:05:56 [JohnJansen]
zakim, microsoft has JohnJansen
16:05:56 [Zakim]
+JohnJansen; got it
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16:06:48 [fantasai]
ScribeNick: fantasai
16:07:02 [TabAtkins_]
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16:07:07 [Zakim]
16:07:23 [fantasai]
plinss: Any extra agenda items?
16:07:33 [fantasai]
Markus: alignment of grid items w/ margins
16:07:41 [fantasai]
fantasai: page-break / break aliasing?
16:07:47 [fantasai]
Tpic: Publishing
16:07:53 [fantasai]
plinss: WD of CSS3 Text
16:07:58 [fantasai]
Florian: Sounds like a good idea to me
16:08:01 [Zakim]
+ +1.206.427.aacc
16:08:03 [Zakim]
16:08:06 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Publish updated WD of CSS3 Text
16:08:14 [glenn]
zakim, ??p92 is glenn
16:08:14 [Zakim]
+glenn; got it
16:08:37 [Katie]
zakim, aacc is me
16:08:37 [Zakim]
+Katie; got it
16:09:00 [fantasai]
Bert: what happened to text-space-collapse?
16:09:32 [fantasai]
fantasai: white-space property is still there
16:09:50 [fantasai]
Bert: what if you want no space at all?
16:09:56 [fantasai]
fantasai: oh, the discard value
16:10:13 [Zakim]
+ +1.281.305.aadd
16:10:29 [fantasai]
florian: We had discard and dropped it, don't remember why
16:10:32 [fantasai]
fantasai will note it as an issue
16:11:18 [fantasai]
plinss: dbaron's overflow regions/repeat draft
16:11:38 [fantasai]
fantasai: Think we should put it up as ED
16:11:51 [dbaron]
16:11:52 [TabAtkins_]
16:11:52 [Rossen]
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16:13:28 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Accept dbaron's overflow regions/repeat draft as official work item -> ED
16:13:34 [Zakim]
16:13:39 [Zakim]
16:13:41 [Zakim]
16:13:42 [koji]
zakim, ??p43 is me
16:13:43 [Zakim]
+koji; got it
16:13:53 [Zakim]
16:13:55 [Rossen]
zakim, Microsoft.aa is me
16:13:55 [Zakim]
+Rossen; got it
16:14:05 [fantasai]
Florian: pseudo-elements draft?
16:14:13 [fantasai]
fantasai: haven't looked at that yet...
16:14:16 [fantasai]
plinss: on agenda for f2f
16:14:28 [fantasai]
plinss: Tab and fantasai's Intrinsic Sizing spec
16:15:14 [Zakim]
16:15:20 [glazou]
Zakim, ??P12 is me
16:15:20 [Zakim]
+glazou; got it
16:15:39 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: It's basically Appendix D of Writing Modes
16:15:51 [fantasai]
fantasai: Think we need to round of edits, but thenready
16:15:55 [myakura]
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16:16:04 [fantasai]
fantasai: Let's try to have all EDs move to FPWD next week
16:16:15 [fantasai]
Bert: Why is this not in the box module?
16:16:22 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: It's extracted from the Writing Modes module
16:16:50 [fantasai]
Bert: think box model is more advanced, though more incomplete
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16:17:07 [JohnJansen]
zakim, microsoft has JohnJansen
16:17:07 [Zakim]
JohnJansen was already listed in [Microsoft], JohnJansen
16:17:16 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Don't think it's a good idea to have a piece that's actively worked on in the middle of a spec of shaky status
16:17:28 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: We'd also like to be able to release these sizing keywords
16:17:44 [fantasai]
anton: Sad to see this not in Box Model, but understand the rationale
16:17:58 [fantasai]
Anton: Wonder how many small pieces we'll wind up with
16:18:20 [fantasai]
Florian: I don't think it's a problem. If this winds up making progress faster that's good, and we can pull it back into the box module
16:18:35 [fantasai]
sylvaing: point of modules is to make progress faster
16:19:17 [fantasai]
Bert: results in inconsistencies across modules, though
16:19:23 [fantasai]
Bert: e.g. min-width now has multiple definitions
16:20:59 [fantasai]
fantasai: ...
16:21:41 [fantasai]
Florian: If modules make progress faster, we'll have tests faster, and if the specs are contradictory the tests will be contradictory too, so we'll notice
16:21:50 [fantasai]
plinss: Don't think now is the time to discuss whether or not to modularize CSS.
16:21:51 [lgombos]
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16:21:55 [fantasai]
Topic: css3-conditional
16:22:10 [fantasai]
plinss: We have one implementation, another coming. Want to make sure the spec is on track
16:22:27 [fantasai]
Florian: Opera has an implementation. Published a bunch of tests. Our implementation is not public yet; still in code review
16:22:49 [fantasai]
Florian: The purely-CSS part of the spec for @supports are pretty good, pretty implementable, didn't find any issues
16:22:54 [fantasai]
Florian: The DOM parts are still need more work
16:23:10 [fantasai]
Florian: I think it will take awhile longer to agree on what to do for serialization and things like that
16:23:17 [fantasai]
Florian: from our POV, coming along quite nicely
16:23:38 [fantasai]
plinss: ED from July ??
16:23:53 [fantasai]
dbaron: We should spend some time on the DOM stuff at the F2F, then publish a new draft on TR
16:24:13 [fantasai]
dbaron: Gecko also has an implementation; in Nightly for a week or two. Know we pass our tests, not sure we pass Opera's tests
16:24:24 [fantasai]
Florian: You fail three. [...] invalid
16:24:33 [fantasai]
Florian: You haven't published your tests, right?
16:24:49 [fantasai]
dbaron: We need to sync that over at some point.
16:24:57 [fantasai]
Florian: Also some of your tests use -moz-document, these I don't have
16:25:02 [krit]
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16:25:10 [dbaron]
s/[...] invalid/I commented on the blog announcing them that one was invalid./
16:25:11 [fantasai]
Florian: Little glitches here and there, but we have most of each others tests. Need to review them
16:25:37 [fantasai]
sylvaing: When we talked about vendor prefixes, side-discussion of prefixing variables/@supports
16:26:04 [fantasai]
dbaron: In Gecko, we implemented unprefixed, but it's behind a preference. On for nightly, will turn off for release depending on status of spec
16:26:21 [fantasai]
Florian: We can do the same thing with a compile-time flag
16:26:34 [antonp]
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16:26:56 [fantasai]
glazou: Betas will have it unprefixed
16:26:59 [fantasai]
Florian: Most likely yes
16:27:12 [Ms2ger]
Oh, is it prefixing time again?
16:27:32 [fantasai]
Florian suggests discussing this again in San Diego with beer
16:27:42 [fantasai]
and promises Opera won't ship before then
16:28:18 [fantasai]
Topic: case-sensitivity of author idents
16:28:29 [fantasai]
fantasai is not prepared, deferred to F2F
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16:29:02 [fantasai]
Topic: Alternate model for run-ins
16:29:53 [fantasai]
16:29:55 [fantasai]
fantasai: ...
16:30:05 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Much more in favor of this model than the previous one.
16:30:18 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Was excited, because first time I understand what run-ins do
16:30:30 [fantasai]
sylvaing: wiki page with examples of what we want to handle
16:30:36 [Zakim]
16:30:41 [TabAtkins_]
16:30:44 [fantasai]
sylvaing: to help us validate whether this is good, can only say it's readable
16:30:50 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: started a page for collecting use cases here
16:30:53 [Zakim]
16:30:58 [glazou]
Zakim, ??P25 is me
16:30:58 [Zakim]
+glazou; got it
16:31:27 [fantasai]
Topic: Grid Items and Margin Alignment
16:31:43 [pcupp]
16:32:13 [fantasai]
pcupp: Treatment of auto margins and how they affect grid items vs. flex items vs. block-level items
16:32:39 [fantasai]
pcupp: There's a section in 9.3 of CSS3 Box spec that describe how we resolve the equation relating size of box to containing block
16:32:45 [fantasai]
pcupp: We want to satisfy this equation
16:32:57 [fantasai]
pcupp: There's a question of where do we actually position the item
16:33:12 [fantasai]
pcupp: When both margins are auto, and talking about aligning in a fixed-size grid slot
16:33:26 [fantasai]
pcupp: If item was actually larger than grid cell, we create two negative margins
16:33:42 [fantasai]
pcupp: centering the item
16:33:50 [fantasai]
pcupp: seemed to be aligned with CSS3 Box
16:34:09 [fantasai]
pcupp quotes from CSS3 Box
16:34:20 [fantasai]
pcupp: we dropped that paragraph when we implemented in IE
16:34:44 [fantasai]
pcupp: I'm wondering if it's correct to drop that paragraph, and whether it would have been correct to drop in flexbox
16:34:51 [fantasai]
(issue is about true vs safe alignment)
16:35:03 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: When you're overconstrained, auto margins reset to zero
16:35:25 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Flexbox purposely went with the same behavior because a) it's consistent with blocks and b) you can get true centering with the alignment properties
16:35:31 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: To be consistent with what we did there, grid should do the same thing
16:35:54 [fantasai]
Rossen: fantasai pointed out earlier in the discussion that this makes the big difference when you have overflow: scroll
16:36:11 [fantasai]
Rossen: you want to be able to see all the content, but cant scroll past the origin
16:36:34 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: True centering can be unsafe, but in some cases it's really what you want
16:37:02 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Both have their use caes. Since block already does safe centering, that's what Flexbox uses for safe centering
16:37:06 [fantasai]
pcupp: Ok
16:37:19 [fantasai]
szilles: If you're doing centering, can you set it so that the scrollbar allows scrolling to the left?
16:37:23 [cabanier]
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16:37:40 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: That would mean the origin of the document, it would have to start out partially-scrolled, and browsers have avoided that as being confusing
16:37:50 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: generally can't scroll into negative regions of the document
16:38:06 [fantasai]
Anton: talking about top-level element, right?
16:38:13 [dbaron]
The thing TabAtkins said about flexbox choosing the opposite option from block so that authors had the ability to do both was interesting, and maybe worth minuting...
16:38:14 [fantasai]
fantasai: Anything that establishes a scrollbar
16:38:51 [fantasai]
Rossen: position of a box is negative, could get into situation of chasing this negative box with the scrollbar (??)
16:39:35 [fantasai]
Rossen: You can come up with situations with, for example if you allow scrolling past origin, to either left or top, the simplest way to shoot yourself in the foot is to have an element that extends to the left on scroll event or have a negative-pos element
16:39:50 [fantasai]
Rossen: We know that web authors do negative-positioning a lot to hide element
16:39:58 [fantasai]
Rossen: Allowing scrollers to scroll there would be a problem
16:40:23 [fantasai]
plinss: Doing that now would be a problem, but don't see a problem for adding an option
16:40:43 [Bert]
(Not scrolling left is a veeeeery old bug in browsers, indeed :-( There are many pages I can only view with Opera or Lynx, because they have text to the left of the window, when you leave CSS turned on.)
16:41:11 [fantasai]
Anton: dont understand why chasing an item is a problem, wouldn't positioning the other way have the same problem
16:41:16 [fantasai]
Rossen: yeah...
16:41:50 [fantasai]
fantasai explains 2.1 issue on this
16:42:46 [fantasai]
Grid Items
16:42:57 [fantasai]
pcupp: Right now we establish valid items the same way flexbox does
16:43:04 [fantasai]
pcupp: which recently changed to be every element
16:43:18 [fantasai]
pcupp: with an anonymous inline around loose text
16:43:34 [fantasai]
pcupp: challenge with grid vs. flexbox is you can't position the anonymous inlines, but a little distinct
16:43:45 [fantasai]
pcupp: but might make sense with auto placement
16:44:06 [fantasai]
pcupp: An alternative was to wrap everything in the grid in an anonymous grid item, call that the default grid item
16:44:21 [fantasai]
pcupp: grid positioning would then pull items out of the default item and position them
16:44:32 [fantasai]
pcupp: pro of first option is, it's what we've been doing and aligns with flexbox
16:44:46 [fantasai]
pcupp: pro of second approach is that we have some ability to lump loose text in the grid
16:45:26 [fantasai]
pcupp: gives us some ability to explore positioning the loose content
16:45:46 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Advantage of the second case is that you can explicitly position various bits, and then have the rest flow into a main content area
16:45:57 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Have to think about it
16:46:08 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Make can do with different markup
16:46:16 [fantasai]
Bert: If you allow the markup to change, then you can do anything without having flows
16:46:19 [Zakim]
16:46:30 [Zakim]
16:46:35 [glazou]
Zakim, ??P25 is me
16:46:35 [Zakim]
+glazou; got it
16:46:52 [rbetts]
have to drop off early to head to another meeting. apologies.
16:46:56 [fantasai]
Bert: If you don't transform the source, should be able to lay out something in terms of a grid even if structure of document is missing some extra divs or whatever
16:47:02 [Zakim]
16:47:09 [fantasai]
Bert: won't work in all cases, some cases have to transform, but can get quite far if you allow things to flow
16:47:31 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: A related topic is letting things that aren't direct children of a grid be positioned into the grid
16:47:54 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: This was a feature of Template, and imo necessary to unlock the potential of grid
16:48:15 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: If you have that, then this wrapper idea is in line with that
16:49:02 [fantasai]
szilles wants pictures for next week
16:50:36 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: auto margins in grid layout behave like they do in flexbox
16:50:46 [TabAtkins_]
TabAtkins: If you wanted the functionality of "everything that isn't explicitly grid-positioned is flowed into a default grid item", you can get it with the "any element can be grid-positioned into their closest ancestor grid" functionality.
16:51:17 [Zakim]
16:52:18 [Zakim]
16:52:49 [TabAtkins_]
16:54:07 [fantasai]
topic: CSS2.1
16:54:15 [fantasai]
anton: overflow on table elements
16:54:24 [fantasai]
anton: came to agreement that overflow should apply to table box, not table wrapper box
16:54:37 [fantasai]
anton: but there are some values of overflow property that aren't supported on tables
16:54:42 [fantasai]
anton: auto and scroll
16:55:03 [TabAtkins_]
TabAtkins: Rather than make an element A be a grid, and have its non-positioned contents move into a default grid cell, put a wrapper around A and make *the wrapper* the grid. Then, the positioned elements of A move into the grid, and position A itself where you want. This gives you precisely the same behavior.
16:55:14 [fantasai]
anton: confirms what was suspected, that all browsers treat auto/scroll as visible
16:55:27 [fantasai]
anton: Asking if we should spec that as an exception to how overflow normally works?
16:55:39 [TabAtkins_]
TabAtkins: But since this is a wrapper-based hack and is non-obvious, I think we should bless this behavior with actual syntax.
16:55:53 [fantasai]
Rossen: Makes sense given number of implementations with this behavior.
16:55:58 [fantasai]
Rossen: unlikely that this will change
16:56:03 [fantasai]
dbaron: I think we're unlikely to change this
16:56:21 [fantasai]
anton: I think unless UAs desperately want to change this, then yes, seems unlikely
16:56:32 [fantasai]
Rossen: Do you propse to write the spec text for that?
16:56:41 [fantasai]
Rossen: Think that would be great
16:56:59 [fantasai]
anton: Do we have other examples of values that are ignored when applied to different kind of element?
16:57:24 [fantasai]
Rossen: overflow propagates to body, so [...]
16:58:10 [fantasai]
anton: anyone have a preference on whether this should go into Tables or Overflow
16:58:31 [fantasai]
fantasai: Think it should go into overflow, since it's basically an applies-to question
16:59:06 [fantasai]
arronei: either way, should be a note in other section pointing this out
16:59:45 [fantasai]
proposal: overflow applies to table box, not table wrapper box, and values other than hidden are treated as visible
16:59:55 [fantasai]
plinss: existing behavior on browsers?
17:00:14 [fantasai]
antonp: yes, aside from opera/webkit weirdness
17:00:23 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: proposal accepted
17:00:35 [Zakim]
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- +1.281.305.aadd
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Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:06:06 [Zakim]
Attendees were fantasai, plinss, glazou, +1.604.312.aaaa, sylvaing, rbetts, florian, hober, stearns, +1.408.636.aabb, smfr, Bert, SteveZ, arronei_, JohnJansen, dbaron,
17:06:06 [Zakim]
... +1.206.427.aacc, glenn, Katie, +1.281.305.aadd, [Microsoft], koji, antonp, Rossen
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19:36:53 [fantasai]
what's the WAIPF's mailing list?
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20:28:58 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: wrt file:///home/fantasai/w3c/csswg/css3-flexbox/Overview.html#order-accessibility I was thinking of moving the last sentence (about not affecting non-flex-items) up into the main section. Also wondering if we need to keep the note about Grid Layout, or if we can drop it at this point.
20:29:03 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: thoughts?
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