15:00:56 RRSAgent has joined #webevents 15:00:56 logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/08/07-webevents-irc 15:01:01 Zakim has joined #webevents 15:01:08 zakim, who's here? 15:01:08 sorry, ArtB, I don't know what conference this is 15:01:09 On IRC I see RRSAgent, ArtB, scott_gonzalez, mbrubeck, smaug_, shepazu, timeless, trackbot 15:01:28 rbyers has joined #webevents 15:01:32 Zakim, this will be RWC_WebEven 15:01:32 ok, ArtB, I see RWC_WebEven()11:00AM already started 15:01:32 Cathy has joined #webevents 15:01:50 zakim, who's on the call? 15:01:50 On the phone I see +1.717.578.aaaa, +1.519.513.aabb, +358.718.00aacc, ??P13 15:01:51 Scribe: Art 15:01:55 ScribeNick: ArtB 15:02:00 zakim, ??P13 is me 15:02:00 +Cathy; got it 15:02:04 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2012JulSep/0005.html 15:02:04 Date: 7 August 2012 15:02:04 Chair: Art 15:02:04 Meeting: Web Events WG Voice Conference 15:02:12 zakim, who is here? 15:02:12 On the phone I see +1.717.578.aaaa, +1.519.513.aabb, +358.718.00aacc, Cathy 15:02:15 On IRC I see Cathy, rbyers, Zakim, RRSAgent, ArtB, scott_gonzalez, mbrubeck, smaug_, shepazu, timeless, trackbot 15:02:19 Zakim, +1.717.578.aaaa is me 15:02:19 +scott_gonzalez; got it 15:03:20 lgombos has joined #webevents 15:03:28 Present: Art_Barstow, Cathy_Chan, Scott_González, Rick_Byers 15:03:52 //me having dialing trouble 15:04:28 + +1.206.792.aadd 15:04:34 Zakim, aadd is me 15:04:35 +mbrubeck; got it 15:04:52 Zakim, who is here? 15:04:52 On the phone I see scott_gonzalez, +1.519.513.aabb, +358.718.00aacc, Cathy, mbrubeck 15:04:54 Present+ Matt_Brubeck 15:04:55 On IRC I see lgombos, Cathy, rbyers, Zakim, RRSAgent, ArtB, scott_gonzalez, mbrubeck, smaug_, shepazu, timeless, trackbot 15:04:59 Zakim, aabb is me 15:04:59 +rbyers; got it 15:05:08 zakim, aacc is me 15:05:17 +ArtB; got it 15:05:38 +Doug_Schepers 15:05:40 -Doug_Schepers 15:05:49 Present+ Doug_Schepers 15:05:54 RRSAgent, make log Public 15:06:00 RRSAgent, make minutes 15:06:00 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/08/07-webevents-minutes.html ArtB 15:06:07 +Doug_Schepers 15:06:10 Topic: Tweak Agenda 15:06:18 AB: a draft agenda was sent to the list on August 6 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2012JulSep/0005.html. I'm going to move the IndieUI TF status to announcements. Any change requests? 15:06:50 Topic: Announcements 15:06:56 AB: the Touch Events PAG is now closed http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2012JulSep/0004.html. The PAG recommended the WG continue with Touch Events v1 spec "as is". 15:07:07 AB: I want to mention that Matt Brubeck's input was invaluable to the PAG so a Very Big Thanks to Matt and thanks to Doug too for his work on the PAG! 15:07:31 AB: I appreciate their efforts! 15:07:35 AB: any questions/comments about the PAG? 15:07:49 AB: 2nd announcement: the IndieUI Task Force http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/IUITF has now had several calls http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/wiki/Minutes. 15:08:03 AB: the Call for Proposals ended July 15 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-indie-ui/2012Jun/0012.html. Apple submitted an input for the Events spec http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2010JulSep/att-0106/UserInterfaceIndependence.html. IBM and others submitted an input for the Context spec http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-indie-ui/2012Aug/0000.html. 15:08:53 argh, I can't join the call today 15:09:01 AB: it would be really good to get broader participation from others, especially browser vendors, and in particular Google, Mozilla and Opera. 15:09:34 RB: I've paying some attention 15:09:43 … want to get the Android team to participate 15:10:07 … there is some confusion re what scenarios are A11Y specific versus more general scenarios 15:10:16 MB: I haven't followed it yet 15:10:29 … I expect someone to follow when they have some time 15:11:35 AB: thanks for the updates 15:11:52 RB: would like to get something like gesture events 15:12:10 … I think there are some important scenarios that are missing from Apple's input 15:12:35 … Just looking at Apple's input, seems like it is more about A11Y 15:13:02 … If maninpuating using touch with scaling, then we will want to be involved 15:13:30 DS: the TF is coming from an accessibility perspective 15:13:52 … dealing with browser vendors and APIs isn't their "strong suit" 15:14:05 … they can learn from us and browser vendors and we can learn from them too 15:14:18 … Would be really valuable to have you (Rick) participate 15:14:23 … and start with UCs 15:14:31 RB: it's good to see a concrete proposal 15:14:38 … we will try to add our scenarios 15:14:46 AB: that would be great Rick 15:15:01 AB: if you want to join the TF, please contact Doug 15:15:14 Topic: Getting TE v1 spec out of Candidate Recommendation (CR) 15:15:22 AB: a primary task now is to get TEv1 out of CR http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webevents/raw-file/v1/touchevents.html and that means we need to complete the test suite and to get at least two implementations to pass each test. 15:15:50 AB: first, what is the Implementation status? 15:16:41 RB: I believe Chrome on Windows and Chrome on ChromeOS have experimental builds 15:16:51 … Chrome on Android has supported it for a long time 15:17:02 … There could be some minor tests 15:17:20 … but the intent is to be completely compliant to the spec (v1) 15:17:31 s/minor tests/minor diffs/ 15:17:41 … If there are diffs, I would consider them as bugs 15:17:58 MB: the intent of v1 was to specifify what has actually be implemented 15:18:36 … if there were places where implementations differed, we intentionally did not specify that 15:19:18 … I haven't run our implementation against the spec recently 15:19:37 … but our intent is to comply with the spec and to change our impl to match the spec (if needed) 15:19:38 Details on Chrome support for touch events: 15:19:54 AB: did Opera implement TEv1? 15:19:56 Current builds on Windows and ChromeOS have touch support behind a flag (about:flags - 'Enable touch events' 15:20:02 MB: yes, Opera Mobile implements it 15:20:15 Topic: Test suite 15:20:22 AB: the TE spec's test suite is http://w3c-test.org/webevents/tests/touch-events-v1/. We have submissions from Mozilla only. 15:20:27 On by default in Chrome 22 - going to beta mid-aug 15:20:39 AB: we also have the Touch events test assertions tables that Cathy created http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/wiki/TestAssertions. We discussed this data on January 17 http://www.w3.org/2012/01/17-webevents-minutes.html#item03. 15:21:33 q+ 15:21:34 AB: so there are questions about what needs to be done; who is going to do the work, etc. 15:22:02 DS: we are having a similar discussion in the Audio WG 15:22:31 … W3C is trying to do more about testing e.g. sharing resources across WGs 15:22:52 AB: are you hiring someone? 15:22:59 DS: yes, we are going to hire someone 15:23:14 … in the meantime, I can get PLH or MikeSmith to come and talk about the testing 15:23:41 MB: we added some tests to tip but did not merge them to v1 branch 15:23:59 … I can take an action to update the v1 branch 15:24:45 ACTION: brubeck Merge touch event tests to v1 branch 15:24:45 Created ACTION-94 - Merge touch event tests to v1 branch [on Matt Brubeck - due 2012-08-14]. 15:25:12 RB: Matt, do you share tests between Mozilla and the WG's tests? 15:25:27 MB: the W3C tests are different than our tests 15:25:39 RB: Webkit has some related tests that could be used 15:25:59 MB: Webkit and Gecko tests aren't really focused on spec compliance 15:26:21 DS: we would like to change that i.e. to make sure our tests are directly usable by implementers 15:26:35 MB: we do import 3rd party test suites into our infrastructure 15:26:49 … f.ex. we do that with WebGL tests 15:27:13 … it should be possible to get W3C testharness tests to be ported to Gecko infra 15:27:38 … The tests we have were created as I wrote the spec 15:28:35 RB: wonder if some abstraction layer would be useful here 15:28:48 … Can we get one automated test? 15:29:03 … If so, then I can see if I can make it work in our test infra 15:29:28 DS: would like to make the tests automated 15:29:41 AB: in other WGs (e.g. WebApps and HTML), a "Test Facilitator" has been designated and they are "stewards" for the test suite. Any volunteers for that role? 15:30:24 MB: I have taking that role so I can do that 15:30:54 AB: thanks very much Matt! 15:31:18 MB: I think we have one test that passes on FF and Opera but fails on Webkit 15:31:25 RB: please send me the details 15:31:37 MB: I think we also have a test that only applies to v2 15:31:50 … so I need to fix that 15:32:13 … I just ran the tests we do have on 4 browser ;) 15:32:54 AB: so do we have a rough idea about how many more tests are needed? 15:33:52 DS: I suspect we only have a very small coverage right now 15:34:17 … we can look at what other groups are doing 15:34:44 … must go beyond feature testing 15:35:06 MB: we have one test file (single touch) that has 17 tests and about 30 test assertions 15:35:28 … we have a multi-touch test file too and it has several tests with more assertions 15:36:01 … I suspect we are about 25% of the way there 15:37:57 AB: given the v1 spec is mostly about documenting history, perhaps it would be acceptable to create a "minimalist" test suite 15:38:16 DS: I wouldn't object to that 15:38:41 RB: I can understand that but there is some risk 15:38:55 … we don't want implementations to miss important cases 15:39:13 … and thus have interop problems 15:39:29 … Touch is important now and will continue to be even more important 15:39:34 … so we need to do a good job. 15:39:57 s/good job/good job with the test suite/ 15:40:14 DS: as always, we need to also consider resource constraints 15:41:16 RB: agree there is a tradeoff 15:41:33 … If v2 is too slow to come out, the web will move on without us 15:42:48 DS: would like to get Microsoft to participate in v2 15:42:58 RB: yes, would like to get them to help with v2 too 15:43:01 Ahh, the identifiedTouch method is implemented by Gecko and by BlackBerry OS 6.0 (but not by Safari, Chrome, Opera, or Android) 15:44:03 DS: I have talked to Microsoft about participating 15:45:04 AB: I have talked to them too 15:45:30 DS: we need to review their work for v2 15:45:45 MB: yes agree but we need to be careful about IP issues 15:47:01 RB: would be nice to know why Microsoft won't participate 15:47:08 … could be lots of reasons 15:49:03 RRSAgent, make minutes 15:49:03 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/08/07-webevents-minutes.html ArtB 15:50:14 [ digression about W3C Patent Policy and licensing … ] 15:54:38 Regrets: Olli_Pettay 15:56:50 SG: the PointerEvents versus TouchEvents already creates a fork in the web 15:57:08 … If we could get Msft to participate, that would be great 15:57:20 … Otherwise, we can use a shim to normalize 15:58:59 DS: I can approach Microsoft again if people think that would be useful 15:59:03 RB: yes, I think so 15:59:06 AB: me too 15:59:37 RB: we have looked at PointerEvents 16:00:00 … like it more than TouchEvents 16:02:55 SG: yes, that's a good idea (for Doug to talk to Microsoft) 16:03:06 +1 16:03:22 … If there is a shim, it would be easier to write once for PointerEvents rather than twice for TouchEvents 16:03:23 Yes, I think we should gather consensus and present it to Microsoft as an argument in favor of participation 16:03:56 ACTION: doug Talk to Microsoft about PointerEvents vis-a-vis TouchEvents v2 16:03:56 Created ACTION-95 - Talk to Microsoft about PointerEvents vis-a-vis TouchEvents v2 [on Doug Schepers - due 2012-08-14]. 16:04:39 RB: the PointerEvents model includes Gesture events 16:04:50 … can this WG go there i.e. gesture events? 16:05:05 DS: that raises some concerns for me 16:05:16 SG: Microsoft just changed their gestures 16:05:29 … added a new touch action 16:05:37 … can do custom gestures 16:06:10 … when I say "just changed", I mean June 16:07:11 Topic: AoB 16:07:21 AB: we have a couple of topics we couldn't get to 16:07:50 AB: what about TEv1 tests? 16:08:21 MB: the action I took earlier isn't needed but I could take an action to determine what needs to be done 16:08:32 RB: I can take a look at the test suite 16:08:47 AB: if you have any comments Rick, please send them to the list 16:10:00 ACTION: mbrubeck Make a list of remaining work needed to complete the v1 test suite. 16:10:00 Created ACTION-96 - Make a list of remaining work needed to complete the v1 test suite. [on Matt Brubeck - due 2012-08-14]. 16:10:18 AB: meeting adjourned 16:10:21 -Doug_Schepers 16:10:22 -Cathy 16:10:22 -rbyers 16:10:23 -scott_gonzalez 16:10:28 -ArtB 16:10:36 -mbrubeck 16:10:37 RWC_WebEven()11:00AM has ended 16:10:37 Attendees were +1.519.513.aabb, +358.718.00aacc, Cathy, scott_gonzalez, +1.206.792.aadd, mbrubeck, rbyers, ArtB, Doug_Schepers 16:10:44 RRSAgent, make minutes 16:10:44 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/08/07-webevents-minutes.html ArtB 16:11:08 s 16:11:14 thanks 16:11:46 mbrubeck: I've talked with RIM folks about this group - they are hesitant to join for IP reasons 16:12:40 I would think that would be the least of their worries... 16:13:33 Sadly, they may be one of only two implementations that conform the the v1 spec as currently written. :/ 16:13:46 unless they plan to become an IP licensing company instead of a market player with products, I think they should get a little more aggressive 16:13:49 sigh 16:14:54 mbrubeck: I'll send a private e-mail to the guys I know and point them at your post - try to get them at least engaged on the list... 16:15:17 rbyers: did I detect a canadian accent? 16:15:48 shepazu: Yes, I'm in Waterloo - RIM backyard :-) 16:15:58 I thought so :) 16:26:03 zakim, bye 16:26:03 Zakim has left #webevents 16:27:07 rrsagent, bye 16:27:07 I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/08/07-webevents-actions.rdf : 16:27:07 ACTION: brubeck Merge touch event tests to v1 branch [1] 16:27:07 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/08/07-webevents-irc#T15-24-45 16:27:07 ACTION: doug Talk to Microsoft about PointerEvents vis-a-vis TouchEvents v2 [2] 16:27:07 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/08/07-webevents-irc#T16-03-56 16:27:07 ACTION: mbrubeck Make a list of remaining work needed to complete the v1 test suite. [3] 16:27:07 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/08/07-webevents-irc#T16-10-00