13:55:55 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #mlw-lt
13:55:55 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/08/02-mlw-lt-irc
13:56:00 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #mlw-lt
13:59:12 <shaunm> shaunm has joined #mlw-lt
14:00:02 <fsasaki> meeting: mlw-lt
14:00:03 <leroy> leroy has joined #mlw-lt
14:00:04 <fsasaki> chair: David
14:00:18 <fsasaki> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Aug/0057.html
14:00:24 <fsasaki> rrsagent, make log public
14:01:36 <dF> 54321
14:03:25 <Jirka> Jirka has joined #mlw-lt
14:03:31 <tadej> tadej has joined #mlw-lt
14:04:02 <fsasaki> present: Arle, david, declan, des, dom, felix, milan, jirka, shaun, leroy
14:04:06 <Milan> Milan has joined #mlw-lt
14:04:15 <Des> Des has joined #mlw-lt
14:04:23 <declan> declan has joined #mlw-lt
14:04:44 <fsasaki> scribe: fsasaki
14:04:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/08/02-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
14:06:10 <Pedro> Pedro has joined #mlw-lt
14:06:18 <fsasaki> present+ pedro
14:06:27 <fsasaki> topic: charter update
14:06:34 <fsasaki> david: I see impact on two levels
14:06:46 <fsasaki> .. good to be official part of HTML, good for our prestige
14:07:09 <fsasaki> .. but it will also force us to be more consicse , more compact
14:07:18 <fsasaki> .. I agree, we need to make the cut really soon
14:07:29 <fsasaki> .. and what we put out of scope in the first wave 
14:07:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/08/02-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
14:07:46 <philr> philr has joined #mlw-lt
14:07:55 <fsasaki> present+ philr
14:08:15 <fsasaki> present+ michael, tadej
14:08:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/08/02-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
14:08:21 <Jirka> we don't need quorum until we do formal votes
14:08:50 <micha> micha has joined #mlw-lt
14:09:14 <fsasaki> present now - Arle, david, declan, des, dom, felix, milan, jirka, shaun, leroy, pedro, philr, michael, tadej
14:09:32 <fsasaki> topic: charter change
14:09:38 <DomJones> DomJones has joined #mlw-lt
14:10:33 <Arle> scribenick Arle
14:10:37 <fsasaki> scribe: Arle
14:11:29 <Arle> Felix: Some background why this happened. In the original charter we said we would define metadata for HTML5. We will use RDFa and Microdata. This approach is difficult. Jirka, in discussion with the HTML group, was pointed to a solution, its- attributes.
14:12:09 <Arle> ..This mechanism was not created by us, but was advocated because namespaces are not possible in HTML5, but this is a replacement for that.
14:12:41 <Arle> ..W3C international discussion did not say it was a wrong approach, but rather that we need to coordinate this work with the HTML5 working group, that we keep them aware and are OK with it.
14:13:06 <Arle> ..But what does it mean that they are OK with it? One thing is that it does *not* mean we are adding attributes to HTML5 itself.
14:14:30 <Arle> ..Rather we need a review from the HTML5 working group that they are OK with HTML. It sounds like a minor difference, but to come back to the process, adding attributes to HTML5 would be adding to the work done in HTML5. We cannot do that. HTML5 is in last call and nothing can be added. All that we are doing is defining attributes and getting the blessing of the HTML that we are following the right approach.
14:15:27 <Arle> ..We need to change the charter for this because we said we would not invent our attributes, but instead use RDFa and microdata, but we are inventing our own attributes. The change in charter is to make them aware that we are doing this. In terms of timing, it is important to do this now.
14:15:46 <Arle> ..In terms of timing, it is important that we do this now before we finalize the draft so that we can move forward with out plan.
14:16:58 <Arle> ..Last point: as David said, this has good parts and bad parts. The good part is that we now have more interest from the HTML community and working group in our work. That interest, I know from experience, is not easy. This is all public, you can let people know.
14:18:41 <Arle> ..The bad aspect is what David said: we can be motivated to be as web content-producer digestible/understandable as possible. We need to be careful that what we describe and define and keep that perspective in mind: we need to make it understandable to people outside of localization. Look at what Arle did in changing attribute names to make them more understandable.
14:18:59 <Arle> ..Like David said, it also means we need to close the set of data categories we want to deal with.
14:19:29 <Arle> ..We may still add mtConfidence, but aside from that, it makes sense on how to sell what we have agreed upon to the web content people.
14:19:42 <fsasaki> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/mlw-lt-charter-2012-update/
14:20:17 <Arle> ..One admin detail: to make this work, we will need a review of the charter. Everyone representing an organization, please fill in this form or get your rep to fill it in.
14:20:38 <Arle> David: I think this is important and that we took the time is good. But let's keep the discussion short.
14:20:45 <Arle> scribe: Felix
14:20:52 <fsasaki> scribe: fsasaki
14:21:06 <fsasaki> topic: call for consensus on special requirements
14:21:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/08/02-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
14:22:05 <fsasaki> david: comments that Yves made were made before
14:22:16 <fsasaki> .. the category as specified now contains two to three different categories
14:22:39 <fsasaki> .. I think the contents of this category, at least the display-size should be taken further
14:23:11 <fsasaki> .. is there anybody who wants to take this further?
14:23:18 <fsasaki> pedro: you mean to split this into several ones?
14:23:59 <fsasaki> felix: propose that micha takes an action item to split this into several ones
14:24:09 <fsasaki> micha: sure
14:24:26 <fsasaki> action: michael to split special requirements into several data categories
14:24:27 <trackbot> Created ACTION-189 - Split special requirements into several data categories [on Michael Kruppa - due 2012-08-09].
14:24:45 <fsasaki> micha: it would be just two categories
14:24:50 <Arle> Apologies for having to drop out. I'll look at the minutes later, but someone came to the door and I can't put them off. I may be able to jump back in later.
14:25:04 <fsasaki> david: display size, storage, band characters
14:25:15 <fsasaki> .. this should be split I think
14:25:26 <fsasaki> david: should be quite easiy
14:26:14 <fsasaki> pedro: so summary is: we split special requirements into three: display, storage size, forbidden characters
14:26:26 <fsasaki> david: yes, band characters are the least stable part 
14:26:33 <fsasaki> .. the reg ex thing needs to be resolved
14:27:07 <fsasaki> pedro: the current attributes of storage size and xyz are part of one category?
14:27:17 <fsasaki> s/xyz/display size/
14:27:33 <fsasaki> pedro: for me it is fine
14:27:55 <fsasaki> topic: Named Entity/Disambiguation
14:28:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/08/02-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
14:28:12 <fsasaki> david: a lot of discussion about this during last weeks call
14:28:30 <fsasaki> .. action item for tadej to implement this, tadej, what's your progress?
14:28:39 <fsasaki> tadej: I went through the minutes
14:28:51 <fsasaki> .. mostly things were around good terminology to fit all communities
14:28:59 <fsasaki> .. right now I have a version that integrates all suggestions
14:29:15 <fsasaki> .. I still work on the one with different variants of pointer, refpointer etc.
14:29:24 <fsasaki> .. I will send a new version of the draft, this time on google docs
14:29:34 <fsasaki> david: I thought it should be final?
14:29:43 <fsasaki> tadej: thought it would be necessary
14:29:51 <fsasaki> .. I have enough information from everyone
14:31:16 <fsasaki> felix: no need to have too many call for consensus for a data category, if it is ready, we will put it into the draft
14:31:46 <fsasaki> david: have a task force or just post it?
14:31:56 <fsasaki> tadej: from my perspective I think this is ready
14:32:08 <fsasaki> .. just want to have another review from the people on the call
14:32:19 <fsasaki> felix: that's fine
14:32:26 <fsasaki> pedro: for this data category
14:33:26 <fsasaki> .. we should involve piek vossen, he can give great input on this  
14:33:51 <fsasaki> felix: agree, if we send this to the list, piek hopefully can join the discussion
14:33:54 <fsasaki> topic: mtConfidence
14:34:04 <fsasaki> david: had good discussion about mtConfidence
14:34:10 <fsasaki> .. mtEngine self evaluation
14:34:21 <fsasaki> .. Chris Wendt said that this would serve their purpose
14:34:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/08/02-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
14:35:07 <fsasaki> declan: understand the difficiulties ms is mentioning in the mail
14:35:20 <fsasaki> .. the parts MS was talking about could be hard to implement
14:35:29 <fsasaki> .. would propose to jsut implement mtConfidence score
14:35:45 <fsasaki> .. the automatic metrix are hard and may not be that useful across the automatic workflow
14:35:57 <fsasaki> david: in the august list, I responded to jan nelson
14:36:06 <fsasaki> .. declan and chris wendt made similar points
14:36:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/08/02-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
14:36:51 <fsasaki> david: other pointers are needed to produce the score, but not needed for a content attribute
14:37:05 <fsasaki> .. agree it would be messy to try to implement this with reference implementations
14:37:53 <fsasaki> .. agree with Declan and Chris that self evaluation order and confidence would be more useful and stable
14:38:22 <fsasaki> .. happy to drive only mtConfidence
14:38:34 <fsasaki> .. human evaluation does not suffer from this
14:38:39 <fsasaki> .. many people do this
14:38:58 <fsasaki> .. not error checking, but people using simple scale
14:39:11 <fsasaki> .. this evaluation gets more importance
14:39:19 <fsasaki> .. would be good to be able to encode it
14:41:35 <fsasaki> felix: I hope that we can postpone this discussion since we have too much stuff to do, we should focus on that
14:41:43 <fsasaki> pedro: for post editing you need a lot of other information
14:41:49 <fsasaki> .. score itself is  not enough
14:42:11 <fsasaki> david: think post editing is out of scope
14:42:24 <fsasaki> .. it would be messy if we try to map score and post editing
14:42:29 <fsasaki> .. not sure if this is what you meant
14:42:56 <fsasaki> david: I'm happy to continue just with mtConfidence
14:43:14 <fsasaki> .. this needs to move forward on the ML
14:43:56 <fsasaki> action: David to draft a section about mtConfidence, based on the discussion 
14:43:56 <trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - David
14:43:56 <trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. dlewis6, dfilip)
14:44:03 <fsasaki> action: dfilipto draft a section about mtConfidence, based on the discussion 
14:44:03 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - dfilipto
14:44:13 <fsasaki> action: dfilip to draft a section about mtConfidence, based on the discussion 
14:44:13 <trackbot> Created ACTION-190 - Draft a section about mtConfidence, based on the discussion  [on David Filip - due 2012-08-09].
14:44:25 <fsasaki> topic: issue-29 progress
14:44:32 <fsasaki> david: maxime is working on this
14:44:41 <fsasaki> .. prominent in the light of recent changes
14:45:06 <tadej> scribe: tadej
14:46:44 <tadej> fsasaki: The current status is that output to RDF is already done and independent of RDFa or Microdata, we are at the point of needing a chapter for the standard and defining the RDF ontology.
14:47:13 <fsasaki> rdf representation here http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Jul/0065.html and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Jul/att-0065/nodelist-rdfxml.xml
14:47:36 <fsasaki> topic: issue-34 (quality)
14:47:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/08/02-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
14:48:01 <fsasaki> phil: we are very close to being able to issue our call
14:48:17 <fsasaki> .. had various naming and implementation details, we are very close
14:48:48 <fsasaki> david: I discussed with arle that he would submit a speaking proposal for seattle
14:48:56 <fsasaki> .. what's the time line for closing?
14:49:01 <fsasaki> phil: need to check with Arle
14:49:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/08/02-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
14:49:26 <fsasaki> david: on track for closing this within august
14:49:47 <fsasaki> topic: house keeping
14:49:51 <fsasaki> see overdue actions at https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/actions/overdue
14:50:16 <fsasaki> action-158 - jirka, will do editorial work next week
14:50:37 <fsasaki> jirka: might make sense that yves edits this
14:51:21 <fsasaki> action-164 discussed during the call today
14:52:04 <fsasaki> felix: see editing plans for HTML5 and query language attr. here http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Aug/0062.html
14:53:06 <fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/PragueSep2012#Objectives
14:53:46 <fsasaki> felix: this is just a start about the prague f2f, feel free to comment
14:54:16 <fsasaki> david: short update on my action item - seattle event
14:54:31 <fsasaki> action-34
14:54:36 <fsasaki> david: we extended call for papers
14:54:48 <fsasaki> .. felix and arle, can you promote the event on the social media setup
14:55:22 <fsasaki> action: felix to promote seattle event on mlw setup
14:55:23 <trackbot> Created ACTION-191 - Promote seattle event on mlw setup [on Felix Sasaki - due 2012-08-09].
14:55:33 <fsasaki> david: we have a strong pc
14:55:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/08/02-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
14:56:03 <fsasaki> david: lot's of submissions on the way
14:56:11 <fsasaki> s/of/of interesting/
14:56:40 <fsasaki> david: on good track with this event
14:56:44 <fsasaki> topic: aob
14:57:28 <fsasaki> pedro: felix asked me to present in prague implementation, things of what we use for our showcase, progress indicator and readyness
14:58:27 <fsasaki> felix: everything you have available, if possible just show us on the list
14:58:53 <fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Best_Practices
15:00:03 <fsasaki> pedro: agree to focus on this next year
15:00:28 <fsasaki> david: thanks, think we did good progress today, thanks all for your hard work
15:00:29 <Jirka> Jirka has left #mlw-lt
15:00:35 <fsasaki> bye everybody
15:00:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/08/02-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
15:15:26 <fsasaki> rrsagent, bye
15:15:26 <RRSAgent> I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/08/02-mlw-lt-actions.rdf :
15:15:26 <RRSAgent> ACTION: michael to split special requirements into several data categories [1]
15:15:26 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/08/02-mlw-lt-irc#T14-24-26
15:15:26 <RRSAgent> ACTION: David to draft a section about mtConfidence, based on the discussion  [2]
15:15:26 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/08/02-mlw-lt-irc#T14-43-56
15:15:26 <RRSAgent> ACTION: dfilipto draft a section about mtConfidence, based on the discussion  [3]
15:15:26 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/08/02-mlw-lt-irc#T14-44-03
15:15:26 <RRSAgent> ACTION: dfilip to draft a section about mtConfidence, based on the discussion  [4]
15:15:26 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/08/02-mlw-lt-irc#T14-44-13
15:15:26 <RRSAgent> ACTION: felix to promote seattle event on mlw setup [5]
15:15:26 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/08/02-mlw-lt-irc#T14-55-22
15:15:27 <fsasaki> zakim, bye
15:15:27 <Zakim> Zakim has left #mlw-lt
15:15:43 <fsasaki> fsasaki has left #mlw-lt