16:24:19 RRSAgent has joined #ua 16:24:19 logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/07/26-ua-irc 16:24:21 RRSAgent, make logs public 16:24:21 Zakim has joined #ua 16:24:23 Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG 16:24:23 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 36 minutes 16:24:24 Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference 16:24:24 Date: 26 July 2012 16:24:44 rrsagent, set logs public 16:26:34 AllanJ has joined #ua 16:26:48 rrsagent, make minutes 16:26:48 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/26-ua-minutes.html AllanJ 16:38:25 kford has joined #ua 16:38:39 zakim, agenda? 16:38:39 I see nothing on the agenda 16:40:06 Agenda+ New 1.1.3 incorporating and adding to Jan's suggestions. from 16:40:08 Hakkinen, Mark - Note Mark was going to update one more time from last meeting http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012JulSep/0004.html 16:40:09 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012JulSep/0005.html 16:40:11 Agenda+ Proposal - 5.x Enable Reporting of User Agent Accessibility 16:40:13 Faults http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012JulSep/0008.html 16:40:14 Agenda+ Action-740 Changes to 2.8 Provide toolbar configuration (Jan, 16:40:16 Kim, Greg) 16:40:18 Agenda+ Jan Proposal 4.1.1 - Active mail thread starting at 16:40:19 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012JulSep/0013.html 16:40:21 Agenda+ Review What's left list 16:40:23 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012JulSep/0001.html 16:40:30 zakim, agenda? 16:40:30 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda: 16:40:32 1. New 1.1.3 incorporating and adding to Jan's suggestions. from [from kford] 16:40:32 2. Proposal - 5.x Enable Reporting of User Agent Accessibility [from kford] 16:40:32 3. Action-740 Changes to 2.8 Provide toolbar configuration (Jan, [from kford] 16:40:32 4. Jan Proposal 4.1.1 - Active mail thread starting at [from kford] 16:40:32 5. Review What's left list [from kford] 16:40:44 rrsagent, make minutes 16:40:44 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/26-ua-minutes.html kford 16:57:16 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started 16:58:43 jeanne has joined #ua 16:59:49 Greg has joined #ua 17:01:33 zakim, who is here? 17:01:33 On the phone I see no one 17:01:34 On IRC I see Greg, jeanne, kford, AllanJ, Zakim, RRSAgent, trackbot 17:01:41 zakim, this will be UA 17:01:41 ok, jeanne, I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM already started 17:01:48 zakim, who is here? 17:01:48 On the phone I see no one 17:01:50 On IRC I see Greg, jeanne, kford, AllanJ, Zakim, RRSAgent, trackbot 17:02:53 Jan has joined #ua 17:03:00 zakim, code? 17:03:00 the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Jan 17:03:09 mhakkinen has joined #ua 17:04:31 present+ Jan, Jim, Greg, Kelly, Mark, Jamie, Jeanne 17:04:31 present: jim, mark, jeanne, kelly, greg, jan, 17:05:47 I'm at Fordham, at the Lincoln Center campus. 17:06:28 zakim, agenda? 17:06:28 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda: 17:06:30 1. New 1.1.3 incorporating and adding to Jan's suggestions. from [from kford] 17:06:30 2. Proposal - 5.x Enable Reporting of User Agent Accessibility [from kford] 17:06:30 3. Action-740 Changes to 2.8 Provide toolbar configuration (Jan, [from kford] 17:06:30 4. Jan Proposal 4.1.1 - Active mail thread starting at [from kford] 17:06:30 5. Review What's left list [from kford] 17:06:38 rrsagent, make minutes 17:06:38 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/26-ua-minutes.html kford 17:06:47 scribe: jallan 17:07:20 zakim, take up item 1 17:07:20 agendum 1. "New 1.1.3 incorporating and adding to Jan's suggestions. from" taken up [from kford] 17:07:52 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012JulSep/0027.html 17:08:44 KimPatch has joined #ua 17:08:46 this includes/incorporates comments from the last meeting 17:09:04 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012JulSep/0027.html 17:09:23 present+ Kim 17:09:24 present+ Kim 17:09:28 mth has joined #ua 17:10:14 jr: still not clear. 17:11:01 ... a. is confusing...viewport...does this have to be in a view port 17:11:18 ... it is saying create a viewport, and scalable 17:11:42 b. says it must be moveable 17:12:24 kp: seems to mean what it says 17:12:51 jf: once we say viewport, thats a lot to digest. suggests a pane of some kind. 17:13:08 ... but the examples say window which is different 17:13:26 .... viewport may need to be a different SC. 17:13:44 kp: a. needs rewritten to say pane or window. 17:14:07 jr: viewport is a difficult topic. should stand alone 17:14:38 gl: user needs to be alble to put it in a viewport 17:15:04 mh: viewport with transparent background, hidden border, etc. 17:15:39 mh: alternated media track should be a viewport 17:15:39 That is, I don't think the wording should imply that alternative text *must* be in a separate viewport. 17:16:42 discussion of viewports and implementation of media viewports and postioning and scaling 17:17:02 jr: media is a special case. 17:17:55 (a) Scale the visual media alternative as a viewport (e.g. a window or pane). 17:17:57 (b) Allow the visual media alternative viewport to occupy any 17:17:58 rectangular region within the user agent's viewport. 17:18:00 (c) 17:18:01 (d) 17:18:14 jr: scroll bars disappear, appears to be flat text. but you start adjusting text scale, and the viewport can no longer handle, and discover that you are in a viesport 17:19:49 jr: does it have to be a windoe? 17:20:40 jr: we must be testably vague in our term 17:20:51 s/windoe/window 17:21:26 jr: make a list of requirements 17:21:53 gl: viewport is one of the most confusing terms in the document 17:22:20 ... user can adjust text, scale and position the region in which text alternatives are presented 17:22:35 kp: viewport is a term that is used in the document. 17:23:26 gl: do we mean only the content viewport 17:23:37 AllanJ has left #ua 17:24:05 AllanJ has joined #ua 17:24:16 rrsagent, make minutes 17:24:16 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/26-ua-minutes.html AllanJ 17:24:31 mh: this is AAA. 17:24:52 jr? we have some really good stuff in here that seems AA 17:25:44 mh: are we now suggesting breaking into several SCs 17:26:20 The user can resize the region in which alternatives for time-based media are visually rendered, reposition the region so that it does or does not overlap the time-based media, and adjust any text in conformance with 1.4.1. 17:26:42 ... need a base level - scaling alternative media content at AA, and positioning is AAA 17:27:21 mh: take this away, and bring back. 17:27:32 jr: perhaps I should take this. 17:28:01 Should it say "recognized" or in other ways address that this doesn't affect cases where the server burns in captions before streaming the video? 17:28:03 jr: just to be clear...the UA knows what these things are 17:29:35 mh: html5 is trying to define tracks and the visualization of them. 17:29:52 rrsagent, make minutes 17:29:52 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/26-ua-minutes.html AllanJ 17:29:57 zakim, close item 1 17:29:57 agendum 1, New 1.1.3 incorporating and adding to Jan's suggestions. from, closed 17:29:59 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:29:59 2. Proposal - 5.x Enable Reporting of User Agent Accessibility [from kford] 17:30:10 zakim, take up item 2 17:30:10 agendum 2. "Proposal - 5.x Enable Reporting of User Agent Accessibility" taken up [from kford] 17:30:37 Action JR: Rework new 1.1.3 taking into account "The user can resize the region in which alternatives for time-based media are visually rendered, reposition the region so that it does or does not overlap the time-based media, and adjust any text in conformance with 1.4.1." 17:30:37 Created ACTION-746 - Rework new 1.1.3 taking into account "The user can resize the region in which alternatives for time-based media are visually rendered, reposition the region so that it does or does not overlap the time-based media, and adjust any text in conformance with 1.4.1." [on Jan Richards - due 2012-08-02]. 17:31:57 zakim, take up item 3 17:31:57 agendum 3. "Action-740 Changes to 2.8 Provide toolbar configuration (Jan," taken up [from kford] 17:32:11 zakim, close item 2 17:32:11 agendum 2, Proposal - 5.x Enable Reporting of User Agent Accessibility, closed 17:32:13 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:32:13 3. Action-740 Changes to 2.8 Provide toolbar configuration (Jan, [from kford] 17:32:15 resolved: 5.x from Mark 5 july or 12 July should go in the document 17:32:20 zakim, take up item 3 17:32:20 agendum 3. "Action-740 Changes to 2.8 Provide toolbar configuration (Jan," taken up [from kford] 17:33:38 jr: not had time to do this. in the action it says help from Kim and Greg. would like to pass this to others 17:34:18 gl: reviewing history., 17:34:48 jr: was not able to get anything together for ATAG on this. not sure of getting anything for uaag 17:34:55 We discussed it on the call of 21 June 2012. 17:35:38 js: important use case on mobile devices. moving tool bar buttions on browser from right to left side for onehanded users. 17:36:05 jr: kp also raised a similar use case. important to have keys handy 17:36:55 gl: there have been sevefral proposals.... someone needs to drive this 17:38:00 found this: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0123.html 17:38:56 jaime will help with the toolbar 17:39:24 zakim, close item 3 17:39:24 agendum 3, Action-740 Changes to 2.8 Provide toolbar configuration (Jan,, closed 17:39:26 I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:39:26 4. Jan Proposal 4.1.1 - Active mail thread starting at [from kford] 17:39:39 zakim, take up item 4 17:39:39 agendum 4. "Jan Proposal 4.1.1 - Active mail thread starting at" taken up [from kford] 17:39:48 action: jeanne (mark and Jaime) to rework the 2.8 toolbar proposal 17:39:48 Created ACTION-747 - (mark and Jaime) to rework the 2.8 toolbar proposal [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2012-08-02]. 17:42:05 Jan Proposal 4.1.1 - Active mail thread starting at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012JulSep/0013.html 17:42:55 related to action-742 17:43:14 Last week we dnded by creating action 742 on Jeanne to "update doc with newest 4.1.1 from today's meeting minutes." 17:43:25 s/dnded/ended/ 17:43:53 zakim, close item 4 17:43:53 agendum 4, Jan Proposal 4.1.1 - Active mail thread starting at, closed 17:43:54 I see 1 item remaining on the agenda: 17:43:54 5. Review What's left list [from kford] 17:44:05 agenda+ survey 17:44:10 take up item 6 17:44:38 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20120725/results 17:45:07 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20120725/? 17:47:35 jr: the applications can keep track of states, and the author can override the back button functionality. 17:47:41 ja: +1 17:48:37 jr: likes gl #2 suggestions 17:48:46 kf: +1 17:48:52 kp: +1 17:48:57 ja: +1 17:50:24 gl: 1.8.8 retoreing point of regard. 17:51:01 Agreement on "3.2.2 Back Button: The user can reverse recognized navigation between web addresses [or "URIs", or "web resources"?] (e.g. standard "back button" functionality). (Level AA)." 17:51:26 Jan prefers "web address" over the alternatives. 17:52:08 Related is 1.8.8 Viewport History [was 1.8.5]: For user agents that implement a viewport history mechanism (e.g. "back" button), the user can return to any state in the viewport history that is allowed by the content, restoring the prior point of regard , input focus and selection. (Level A) 17:53:42 So 1.8.8 takes care of restoring focus, selection, and point of regard, but not restoring contents of edit fields, state of input controls, etc. 17:54:05 Jan thinks we should not require restoring state of input controls when navigating back to a page. 17:55:26 That's because the situation may be complicated, you might not want everything filled out, have to clear them. 17:55:53 Jan ponders idea of prompt for confirmation when navigating away might cause your input to be lost. 17:56:03 Jeanne notes people write scripting to do that. 17:57:31 We could have restoring state of input controls separated out into another SC, if we want to address it, just a 1.8.8 separates out restoring focus etc. Thus current text of 3.2.2 could stand as is. 17:58:00 Resolved: "3.2.2 Back Button: The user can reverse recognized navigation between web addresses (e.g. standard "back button" functionality). (Level AA)." 17:59:13 action: jeanne to update document to include 3.2.2 Back Button: The user can reverse recognized navigation between web addresses (e.g. standard "back button" functionality). (Level AA). 17:59:13 Created ACTION-748 - Update document to include 3.2.2 Back Button: The user can reverse recognized navigation between web addresses (e.g. standard "back button" functionality). (Level AA). [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2012-08-02]. 17:59:34 discussion of intent and examples 18:00:12 I think the Examples should be expanded, as they're both voice input, and we should include an example of selecting a page from the History. 18:01:18 Ellen had a hand injury which makes her easily distracted. She clicks on a link, and is interrupted by a colleague. It is important that she can easily get back to the link before to reorient herself. 18:02:25 Etta finds she frequently clicks on the wrong link, and when she does so, she simply clicks the Back button in order to get back to where she had been. 18:03:20 Ellen had a head injury which has affected her memory. She clicks on a link, and is interrupted by a colleague. When she goes back to her task she has forgotten what she was originally doing. It's important that she be able to retrace her steps to reorient herself. 18:04:01 Ellen had a head injury that affects her short-term memory. She clicks on a link, and is interrupted by a colleague. When she goes back to her task she has forgotten what she was originally doing. It's important that she be able to retrace her steps to reorient herself. 18:04:03 Bessie enters text with difficulty, so when she wants to navigate to a page she's already been too, it's much easier for her to click on its title in her History menu than it would be to enter its URL or navigate through it through a long series of links. 18:05:37 s/through it through/to it through/ 18:05:42 s/URL/URI/ 18:07:03 For the Intent: In many cases it will be useful for the user to have input controls restored to their previous state when the user returns to the page. However, this may not be possible in all cases, either because of scripting, server-side interactions, privacy concerns, or to avoid duplicating financial transactions and the like. 18:10:24 Etta has low vision and frequently clicks on the wrong link, and when she does so, she simply clicks the Back button in order to get back to where she had been. 18:11:27 So, here are the new examples to be added: 18:11:28 Ellen had a head injury that affects her short-term memory. She clicks on a link, and is interrupted by a colleague. When she goes back to her task she has forgotten what she was originally doing. It's important that she be able to retrace her steps to reorient herself. 18:11:30 Etta has low vision and frequently clicks on the wrong link, and when she does so, she simply clicks the Back button in order to get back to where she had been. 18:11:31 Bessie enters text with difficulty, so when she wants to navigate to a page she's already been too, it's much easier for her to click on its title in her History menu than it would be to enter its URL or navigate through it through a long series of links. 18:12:06 action: jeanne to update document with examples and intent above in the minutes of 26 July. 18:12:06 Created ACTION-749 - Update document with examples and intent above in the minutes of 26 July. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2012-08-02]. 18:12:44 Agreement to the following paragraph to the Intent: 18:12:46 In many cases it will be useful for the user to have input controls restored to their previous state when the user returns to the page. However, this may not be possible in all cases, either because of scripting, server-side interactions, privacy concerns, or to avoid duplicating financial transactions and the like. 18:13:10 zakim, close item 6 18:13:10 agendum 6, survey, closed 18:13:11 I see 1 item remaining on the agenda: 18:13:11 5. Review What's left list [from kford] 18:13:26 zakim, take up item 5 18:13:26 agendum 5. "Review What's left list" taken up [from kford] 18:14:48 List is at: 18:14:51 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012JulSep/0001.html 18:20:49 Jan doing 1.2.2 action-725. He is reworking the intent. 18:22:49 zakim, close item 5 18:22:49 agendum 5, Review What's left list, closed 18:22:50 I see nothing remaining on the agenda 18:24:24 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended 18:24:26 Attendees were 18:27:33 rrsagent, make minutes 18:27:33 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/26-ua-minutes.html AllanJ 18:31:47 zakim, please part 18:31:47 Zakim has left #ua 18:31:56 rrsagent, please part 18:31:56 I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/07/26-ua-actions.rdf : 18:31:56 ACTION: JR to Rework new 1.1.3 taking into account "The user can resize the region in which alternatives for time-based media are visually rendered, reposition the region so that it does or does not overlap the time-based media, and adjust any text in conformance with 1.4.1." [1] 18:31:56 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/07/26-ua-irc#T17-30-37 18:31:56 ACTION: jeanne (mark and Jaime) to rework the 2.8 toolbar proposal [2] 18:31:56 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/07/26-ua-irc#T17-39-48 18:31:56 ACTION: jeanne to update document to include 3.2.2 Back Button: The user can reverse recognized navigation between web addresses (e.g. standard "back button" functionality). (Level AA). [3] 18:31:56 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/07/26-ua-irc#T17-59-13 18:31:56 ACTION: jeanne to update document with examples and intent above in the minutes of 26 July. [4] 18:31:56 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/07/26-ua-irc#T18-12-06