IRC log of ua on 2012-07-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:24:19 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/07/26-ua-irc
16:24:21 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:24:21 [Zakim]
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16:24:23 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
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ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 36 minutes
16:24:24 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:24:24 [trackbot]
Date: 26 July 2012
16:24:44 [jallan]
rrsagent, set logs public
16:26:34 [AllanJ]
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16:26:48 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:26:48 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/26-ua-minutes.html AllanJ
16:38:25 [kford]
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16:38:39 [kford]
zakim, agenda?
16:38:39 [Zakim]
I see nothing on the agenda
16:40:06 [kford]
Agenda+ New 1.1.3 incorporating and adding to Jan's suggestions. from
16:40:08 [kford]
Hakkinen, Mark - Note Mark was going to update one more time from last meeting http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012JulSep/0004.html
16:40:09 [kford]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012JulSep/0005.html
16:40:11 [kford]
Agenda+ Proposal - 5.x Enable Reporting of User Agent Accessibility
16:40:13 [kford]
Faults http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012JulSep/0008.html
16:40:14 [kford]
Agenda+ Action-740 Changes to 2.8 Provide toolbar configuration (Jan,
16:40:16 [kford]
Kim, Greg)
16:40:18 [kford]
Agenda+ Jan Proposal 4.1.1 - Active mail thread starting at
16:40:19 [kford]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012JulSep/0013.html
16:40:21 [kford]
Agenda+ Review What's left list
16:40:23 [kford]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012JulSep/0001.html
16:40:30 [kford]
zakim, agenda?
16:40:30 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
16:40:32 [Zakim]
1. New 1.1.3 incorporating and adding to Jan's suggestions. from [from kford]
16:40:32 [Zakim]
2. Proposal - 5.x Enable Reporting of User Agent Accessibility [from kford]
16:40:32 [Zakim]
3. Action-740 Changes to 2.8 Provide toolbar configuration (Jan, [from kford]
16:40:32 [Zakim]
4. Jan Proposal 4.1.1 - Active mail thread starting at [from kford]
16:40:32 [Zakim]
5. Review What's left list [from kford]
16:40:44 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:40:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/26-ua-minutes.html kford
16:57:16 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
16:58:43 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
16:59:49 [Greg]
Greg has joined #ua
17:01:33 [jeanne]
zakim, who is here?
17:01:33 [Zakim]
On the phone I see no one
17:01:34 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Greg, jeanne, kford, AllanJ, Zakim, RRSAgent, trackbot
17:01:41 [jeanne]
zakim, this will be UA
17:01:41 [Zakim]
ok, jeanne, I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM already started
17:01:48 [jeanne]
zakim, who is here?
17:01:48 [Zakim]
On the phone I see no one
17:01:50 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Greg, jeanne, kford, AllanJ, Zakim, RRSAgent, trackbot
17:02:53 [Jan]
Jan has joined #ua
17:03:00 [Jan]
zakim, code?
17:03:00 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Jan
17:03:09 [mhakkinen]
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17:04:31 [jeanne]
present+ Jan, Jim, Greg, Kelly, Mark, Jamie, Jeanne
17:04:31 [AllanJ]
present: jim, mark, jeanne, kelly, greg, jan,
17:05:47 [mhakkinen]
I'm at Fordham, at the Lincoln Center campus.
17:06:28 [kford]
zakim, agenda?
17:06:28 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
17:06:30 [Zakim]
1. New 1.1.3 incorporating and adding to Jan's suggestions. from [from kford]
17:06:30 [Zakim]
2. Proposal - 5.x Enable Reporting of User Agent Accessibility [from kford]
17:06:30 [Zakim]
3. Action-740 Changes to 2.8 Provide toolbar configuration (Jan, [from kford]
17:06:30 [Zakim]
4. Jan Proposal 4.1.1 - Active mail thread starting at [from kford]
17:06:30 [Zakim]
5. Review What's left list [from kford]
17:06:38 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:06:38 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/26-ua-minutes.html kford
17:06:47 [AllanJ]
scribe: jallan
17:07:20 [kford]
zakim, take up item 1
17:07:20 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "New 1.1.3 incorporating and adding to Jan's suggestions. from" taken up [from kford]
17:07:52 [jeanne]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012JulSep/0027.html
17:08:44 [KimPatch]
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17:08:46 [AllanJ]
this includes/incorporates comments from the last meeting
17:09:04 [AllanJ]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012JulSep/0027.html
17:09:23 [jeanne]
present+ Kim
17:09:24 [AllanJ]
present+ Kim
17:09:28 [mth]
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17:10:14 [AllanJ]
jr: still not clear.
17:11:01 [AllanJ]
... a. is confusing...viewport...does this have to be in a view port
17:11:18 [AllanJ]
... it is saying create a viewport, and scalable
17:11:42 [AllanJ]
b. says it must be moveable
17:12:24 [AllanJ]
kp: seems to mean what it says
17:12:51 [AllanJ]
jf: once we say viewport, thats a lot to digest. suggests a pane of some kind.
17:13:08 [AllanJ]
... but the examples say window which is different
17:13:26 [AllanJ]
.... viewport may need to be a different SC.
17:13:44 [AllanJ]
kp: a. needs rewritten to say pane or window.
17:14:07 [AllanJ]
jr: viewport is a difficult topic. should stand alone
17:14:38 [AllanJ]
gl: user needs to be alble to put it in a viewport
17:15:04 [AllanJ]
mh: viewport with transparent background, hidden border, etc.
17:15:39 [AllanJ]
mh: alternated media track should be a viewport
17:15:39 [Greg]
That is, I don't think the wording should imply that alternative text *must* be in a separate viewport.
17:16:42 [AllanJ]
discussion of viewports and implementation of media viewports and postioning and scaling
17:17:02 [AllanJ]
jr: media is a special case.
17:17:55 [KimPatch]
(a) Scale the visual media alternative as a viewport (e.g. a window or pane).
17:17:57 [KimPatch]
(b) Allow the visual media alternative viewport to occupy any
17:17:58 [KimPatch]
rectangular region within the user agent's viewport.
17:18:00 [KimPatch]
(c)
17:18:01 [KimPatch]
(d)
17:18:14 [AllanJ]
jr: scroll bars disappear, appears to be flat text. but you start adjusting text scale, and the viewport can no longer handle, and discover that you are in a viesport
17:19:49 [AllanJ]
jr: does it have to be a windoe?
17:20:40 [AllanJ]
jr: we must be testably vague in our term
17:20:51 [AllanJ]
s/windoe/window
17:21:26 [AllanJ]
jr: make a list of requirements
17:21:53 [AllanJ]
gl: viewport is one of the most confusing terms in the document
17:22:20 [AllanJ]
... user can adjust text, scale and position the region in which text alternatives are presented
17:22:35 [AllanJ]
kp: viewport is a term that is used in the document.
17:23:26 [AllanJ]
gl: do we mean only the content viewport
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17:24:16 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:24:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/26-ua-minutes.html AllanJ
17:24:31 [AllanJ]
mh: this is AAA.
17:24:52 [AllanJ]
jr? we have some really good stuff in here that seems AA
17:25:44 [AllanJ]
mh: are we now suggesting breaking into several SCs
17:26:20 [Greg]
The user can resize the region in which alternatives for time-based media are visually rendered, reposition the region so that it does or does not overlap the time-based media, and adjust any text in conformance with 1.4.1.
17:26:42 [AllanJ]
... need a base level - scaling alternative media content at AA, and positioning is AAA
17:27:21 [AllanJ]
mh: take this away, and bring back.
17:27:32 [AllanJ]
jr: perhaps I should take this.
17:28:01 [Greg]
Should it say "recognized" or in other ways address that this doesn't affect cases where the server burns in captions before streaming the video?
17:28:03 [AllanJ]
jr: just to be clear...the UA knows what these things are
17:29:35 [AllanJ]
mh: html5 is trying to define tracks and the visualization of them.
17:29:52 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:29:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/26-ua-minutes.html AllanJ
17:29:57 [kford]
zakim, close item 1
17:29:57 [Zakim]
agendum 1, New 1.1.3 incorporating and adding to Jan's suggestions. from, closed
17:29:59 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:29:59 [Zakim]
2. Proposal - 5.x Enable Reporting of User Agent Accessibility [from kford]
17:30:10 [kford]
zakim, take up item 2
17:30:10 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Proposal - 5.x Enable Reporting of User Agent Accessibility" taken up [from kford]
17:30:37 [Jan]
Action JR: Rework new 1.1.3 taking into account "The user can resize the region in which alternatives for time-based media are visually rendered, reposition the region so that it does or does not overlap the time-based media, and adjust any text in conformance with 1.4.1."
17:30:37 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-746 - Rework new 1.1.3 taking into account "The user can resize the region in which alternatives for time-based media are visually rendered, reposition the region so that it does or does not overlap the time-based media, and adjust any text in conformance with 1.4.1." [on Jan Richards - due 2012-08-02].
17:31:57 [kford]
zakim, take up item 3
17:31:57 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Action-740 Changes to 2.8 Provide toolbar configuration (Jan," taken up [from kford]
17:32:11 [kford]
zakim, close item 2
17:32:11 [Zakim]
agendum 2, Proposal - 5.x Enable Reporting of User Agent Accessibility, closed
17:32:13 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:32:13 [Zakim]
3. Action-740 Changes to 2.8 Provide toolbar configuration (Jan, [from kford]
17:32:15 [AllanJ]
resolved: 5.x from Mark 5 july or 12 July should go in the document
17:32:20 [kford]
zakim, take up item 3
17:32:20 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Action-740 Changes to 2.8 Provide toolbar configuration (Jan," taken up [from kford]
17:33:38 [AllanJ]
jr: not had time to do this. in the action it says help from Kim and Greg. would like to pass this to others
17:34:18 [AllanJ]
gl: reviewing history.,
17:34:48 [AllanJ]
jr: was not able to get anything together for ATAG on this. not sure of getting anything for uaag
17:34:55 [Greg]
We discussed it on the call of 21 June 2012.
17:35:38 [AllanJ]
js: important use case on mobile devices. moving tool bar buttions on browser from right to left side for onehanded users.
17:36:05 [AllanJ]
jr: kp also raised a similar use case. important to have keys handy
17:36:55 [AllanJ]
gl: there have been sevefral proposals.... someone needs to drive this
17:38:00 [Jan]
found this: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0123.html
17:38:56 [AllanJ]
jaime will help with the toolbar
17:39:24 [kford]
zakim, close item 3
17:39:24 [Zakim]
agendum 3, Action-740 Changes to 2.8 Provide toolbar configuration (Jan,, closed
17:39:26 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:39:26 [Zakim]
4. Jan Proposal 4.1.1 - Active mail thread starting at [from kford]
17:39:39 [kford]
zakim, take up item 4
17:39:39 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Jan Proposal 4.1.1 - Active mail thread starting at" taken up [from kford]
17:39:48 [AllanJ]
action: jeanne (mark and Jaime) to rework the 2.8 toolbar proposal
17:39:48 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-747 - (mark and Jaime) to rework the 2.8 toolbar proposal [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2012-08-02].
17:42:05 [Greg]
Jan Proposal 4.1.1 - Active mail thread starting at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012JulSep/0013.html
17:42:55 [AllanJ]
related to action-742
17:43:14 [Greg]
Last week we dnded by creating action 742 on Jeanne to "update doc with newest 4.1.1 from today's meeting minutes."
17:43:25 [Greg]
s/dnded/ended/
17:43:53 [kford]
zakim, close item 4
17:43:53 [Zakim]
agendum 4, Jan Proposal 4.1.1 - Active mail thread starting at, closed
17:43:54 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
17:43:54 [Zakim]
5. Review What's left list [from kford]
17:44:05 [kford]
agenda+ survey
17:44:10 [kford]
take up item 6
17:44:38 [AllanJ]
https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20120725/results
17:45:07 [kford]
https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20120725/?
17:47:35 [AllanJ]
jr: the applications can keep track of states, and the author can override the back button functionality.
17:47:41 [AllanJ]
ja: +1
17:48:37 [AllanJ]
jr: likes gl #2 suggestions
17:48:46 [AllanJ]
kf: +1
17:48:52 [AllanJ]
kp: +1
17:48:57 [AllanJ]
ja: +1
17:50:24 [AllanJ]
gl: 1.8.8 retoreing point of regard.
17:51:01 [Greg]
Agreement on "3.2.2 Back Button: The user can reverse recognized navigation between web addresses [or "URIs", or "web resources"?] (e.g. standard "back button" functionality). (Level AA)."
17:51:26 [Greg]
Jan prefers "web address" over the alternatives.
17:52:08 [Greg]
Related is 1.8.8 Viewport History [was 1.8.5]: For user agents that implement a viewport history mechanism (e.g. "back" button), the user can return to any state in the viewport history that is allowed by the content, restoring the prior point of regard , input focus and selection. (Level A)
17:53:42 [Greg]
So 1.8.8 takes care of restoring focus, selection, and point of regard, but not restoring contents of edit fields, state of input controls, etc.
17:54:05 [Greg]
Jan thinks we should not require restoring state of input controls when navigating back to a page.
17:55:26 [Greg]
That's because the situation may be complicated, you might not want everything filled out, have to clear them.
17:55:53 [Greg]
Jan ponders idea of prompt for confirmation when navigating away might cause your input to be lost.
17:56:03 [Greg]
Jeanne notes people write scripting to do that.
17:57:31 [Greg]
We could have restoring state of input controls separated out into another SC, if we want to address it, just a 1.8.8 separates out restoring focus etc. Thus current text of 3.2.2 could stand as is.
17:58:00 [Greg]
Resolved: "3.2.2 Back Button: The user can reverse recognized navigation between web addresses (e.g. standard "back button" functionality). (Level AA)."
17:59:13 [AllanJ]
action: jeanne to update document to include 3.2.2 Back Button: The user can reverse recognized navigation between web addresses (e.g. standard "back button" functionality). (Level AA).
17:59:13 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-748 - Update document to include 3.2.2 Back Button: The user can reverse recognized navigation between web addresses (e.g. standard "back button" functionality). (Level AA). [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2012-08-02].
17:59:34 [AllanJ]
discussion of intent and examples
18:00:12 [Greg]
I think the Examples should be expanded, as they're both voice input, and we should include an example of selecting a page from the History.
18:01:18 [KimPatch]
Ellen had a hand injury which makes her easily distracted. She clicks on a link, and is interrupted by a colleague. It is important that she can easily get back to the link before to reorient herself.
18:02:25 [Greg]
Etta finds she frequently clicks on the wrong link, and when she does so, she simply clicks the Back button in order to get back to where she had been.
18:03:20 [KimPatch]
Ellen had a head injury which has affected her memory. She clicks on a link, and is interrupted by a colleague. When she goes back to her task she has forgotten what she was originally doing. It's important that she be able to retrace her steps to reorient herself.
18:04:01 [KimPatch]
Ellen had a head injury that affects her short-term memory. She clicks on a link, and is interrupted by a colleague. When she goes back to her task she has forgotten what she was originally doing. It's important that she be able to retrace her steps to reorient herself.
18:04:03 [Greg]
Bessie enters text with difficulty, so when she wants to navigate to a page she's already been too, it's much easier for her to click on its title in her History menu than it would be to enter its URL or navigate through it through a long series of links.
18:05:37 [Greg]
s/through it through/to it through/
18:05:42 [Greg]
s/URL/URI/
18:07:03 [Greg]
For the Intent: In many cases it will be useful for the user to have input controls restored to their previous state when the user returns to the page. However, this may not be possible in all cases, either because of scripting, server-side interactions, privacy concerns, or to avoid duplicating financial transactions and the like.
18:10:24 [Greg]
Etta has low vision and frequently clicks on the wrong link, and when she does so, she simply clicks the Back button in order to get back to where she had been.
18:11:27 [Greg]
So, here are the new examples to be added:
18:11:28 [Greg]
Ellen had a head injury that affects her short-term memory. She clicks on a link, and is interrupted by a colleague. When she goes back to her task she has forgotten what she was originally doing. It's important that she be able to retrace her steps to reorient herself.
18:11:30 [Greg]
Etta has low vision and frequently clicks on the wrong link, and when she does so, she simply clicks the Back button in order to get back to where she had been.
18:11:31 [Greg]
Bessie enters text with difficulty, so when she wants to navigate to a page she's already been too, it's much easier for her to click on its title in her History menu than it would be to enter its URL or navigate through it through a long series of links.
18:12:06 [jeanne]
action: jeanne to update document with examples and intent above in the minutes of 26 July.
18:12:06 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-749 - Update document with examples and intent above in the minutes of 26 July. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2012-08-02].
18:12:44 [Greg]
Agreement to the following paragraph to the Intent:
18:12:46 [Greg]
In many cases it will be useful for the user to have input controls restored to their previous state when the user returns to the page. However, this may not be possible in all cases, either because of scripting, server-side interactions, privacy concerns, or to avoid duplicating financial transactions and the like.
18:13:10 [kford]
zakim, close item 6
18:13:10 [Zakim]
agendum 6, survey, closed
18:13:11 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
18:13:11 [Zakim]
5. Review What's left list [from kford]
18:13:26 [kford]
zakim, take up item 5
18:13:26 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "Review What's left list" taken up [from kford]
18:14:48 [kford]
List is at:
18:14:51 [kford]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012JulSep/0001.html
18:20:49 [jeanne]
Jan doing 1.2.2 action-725. He is reworking the intent.
18:22:49 [kford]
zakim, close item 5
18:22:49 [Zakim]
agendum 5, Review What's left list, closed
18:22:50 [Zakim]
I see nothing remaining on the agenda
18:24:24 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
18:24:26 [Zakim]
Attendees were
18:27:33 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:27:33 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/26-ua-minutes.html AllanJ
18:31:47 [AllanJ]
zakim, please part
18:31:47 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
18:31:56 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, please part
18:31:56 [RRSAgent]
I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/07/26-ua-actions.rdf :
18:31:56 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JR to Rework new 1.1.3 taking into account "The user can resize the region in which alternatives for time-based media are visually rendered, reposition the region so that it does or does not overlap the time-based media, and adjust any text in conformance with 1.4.1." [1]
18:31:56 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/07/26-ua-irc#T17-30-37
18:31:56 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne (mark and Jaime) to rework the 2.8 toolbar proposal [2]
18:31:56 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/07/26-ua-irc#T17-39-48
18:31:56 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to update document to include 3.2.2 Back Button: The user can reverse recognized navigation between web addresses (e.g. standard "back button" functionality). (Level AA). [3]
18:31:56 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/07/26-ua-irc#T17-59-13
18:31:56 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to update document with examples and intent above in the minutes of 26 July. [4]
18:31:56 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/07/26-ua-irc#T18-12-06