IRC log of eval on 2012-07-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:49:06 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #eval

13:49:06 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/07/26-eval-irc

13:49:07 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs world

13:49:08 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #eval

13:49:09 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be 3825

13:49:10 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot; I see WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 11 minutes

13:49:10 [trackbot]

Meeting: WCAG 2.0 Evaluation Methodology Task Force Teleconference

13:49:11 [trackbot]

Date: 26 July 2012

13:54:56 [Zakim]

WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has now started

13:55:03 [Zakim]

+Katie_Haritos-Shea

13:55:32 [ericvelleman]

ericvelleman has joined #eval

13:59:37 [vivienne]

vivienne has joined #eval

14:00:31 [Zakim]

+??P14

14:00:33 [MartijnHoutepen]

MartijnHoutepen has joined #eval

14:00:39 [vivienne]

zakim, ??P14 is me

14:00:39 [Zakim]

+vivienne; got it

14:01:11 [Zakim]

+ +31.30.239.aaaa

14:02:09 [Zakim]

+ +31.30.239.aabb

14:02:47 [MartijnHoutepen]

zakim, aabb is me

14:02:47 [Zakim]

+MartijnHoutepen; got it

14:03:02 [MartijnHoutepen]

zakim, aaaa is ericvelleman

14:03:02 [Zakim]

+ericvelleman; got it

14:03:04 [korn]

korn has joined #eval

14:03:10 [MartijnHoutepen]

zakim, mute me

14:03:10 [Zakim]

MartijnHoutepen should now be muted

14:03:14 [Zakim]

+Peter_Korn

14:03:20 [korn]

Zakim, Oracle has Peter_Korn

14:03:20 [Zakim]

sorry, korn, I do not recognize a party named 'Oracle'

14:04:58 [MartijnHoutepen]

ack me

14:05:38 [Zakim]

+Shadi

14:07:15 [MartijnHoutepen]

scribenick:korn

14:07:47 [MartijnHoutepen]

zakim, mute me

14:07:47 [Zakim]

MartijnHoutepen should now be muted

14:08:06 [ericvelleman]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/comments.html

14:08:08 [shadi]

Topic: Disposition of Comments

14:09:20 [korn]

Eric: Looking at the disposition of comments

14:10:02 [korn]

Eric: see column "Nature" for what Eric did with it

14:10:10 [MoeKraft]

MoeKraft has joined #eval

14:10:29 [korn]

Eric: Qx where "x" is the questionaire it was discussed in

14:10:49 [Zakim]

+MoeKraft

14:11:37 [korn]

Eric: URL at end of each resolution column block

14:12:00 [korn]

q+

14:12:53 [ericvelleman]

q?

14:13:08 [korn]

Peter: could the URLs in Resolution column be live?

14:13:14 [Tim]

Tim has joined #eval

14:13:16 [MartijnHoutepen]

q- korn

14:13:46 [shadi]

agenda+ Tracker Tool

14:15:01 [shadi]

zakim, drop agendum 1

14:15:01 [Zakim]

agendum 1, Tracker Tool, dropped

14:15:28 [korn]

agenda+ Next Steps

14:15:48 [shadi]

agenda?

14:17:06 [korn]

agenda+ Questionnaire

14:17:10 [korn]

agenda+ Other issues

14:17:13 [korn]

agenda?

14:18:08 [Zakim]

+[Oracle]

14:18:18 [Zakim]

-Peter_Korn

14:18:30 [shadi]

zakim, oracle is Peter

14:18:30 [Zakim]

+Peter; got it

14:19:17 [shadi]

action: eric to add URLs to the disposition of comments

14:19:17 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-4 - Add URLs to the disposition of comments [on Eric Velleman - due 2012-08-02].

14:19:54 [ericvelleman]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/2011/eval/track/

14:20:08 [shadi]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/2011/eval/track/actions/4

14:21:41 [korn]

Eric: we should use the tracker to track open issues, other things we need to track.

14:22:07 [korn]

q+

14:22:16 [ericvelleman]

q?

14:22:42 [shadi]

q+

14:22:44 [korn]

Peter: Eric you are suggesting that all unresolved comments or "to write" tasks become Actions?

14:22:45 [shadi]

ack korn

14:23:27 [korn]

Eric: yes, that's what I mean

14:23:38 [korn]

ack shadi

14:23:59 [korn]

Shadi: suggests a strong separatation between actions & issues

14:24:16 [korn]

Shadi: actions are for specific things; issues are broader (e.g. "consider aggregation on individual website parts")

14:24:30 [vivienne]

zakim, mute me

14:24:30 [Zakim]

vivienne should now be muted

14:24:44 [Zakim]

+Tim_Boland

14:24:51 [korn]

Shadi: actions have deadlines (which can be adjusted - by default they are 1 week out from being created)

14:24:52 [ericvelleman]

q?

14:25:10 [vivienne]

fine with me

14:25:11 [korn]

Eric: OK w/all that we do this to close down comments?

14:25:11 [MartijnHoutepen]

+1

14:25:15 [korn]

+1

14:25:29 [shadi]

+10

14:25:33 [Tim]

+1

14:25:35 [MoeKraft]

+1

14:25:52 [vivienne]

+1

14:25:56 [vivienne]

+!

14:26:00 [vivienne]

+1

14:26:11 [korn]

zakim, next item

14:26:11 [Zakim]

agendum 2. "Next Steps" taken up [from korn]

14:26:55 [korn]

Eric: plans to put all comments into next editor draft, and make changes to dispositions of comments; add issues/actions to tracker

14:27:16 [korn]

Eric: all should be on-line tomorrow, and have complete week 'til next call to discuss the next editor draft.

14:27:30 [korn]

Eric: question before us would be: are we ready for a next editor draft?

14:27:43 [korn]

zakim, next item

14:27:43 [Zakim]

agendum 3. "Questionnaire" taken up [from korn]

14:27:49 [ericvelleman]

https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/48225/evaltfq4/

14:28:29 [korn]

Eric: lots of folks answering - good work! Many "accept proposed"!

14:28:45 [korn]

q+

14:29:55 [ericvelleman]

q?

14:30:05 [shadi]

q+

14:30:24 [korn]

Eric: for items with overwhelming "accept" (and perhaps a few "with comments") went ahead and closed the comment, putting the "with comments" into "resolution" column to be dealt with in next draft

14:32:08 [korn]

Peter: worries about that approach, too easy to loose the thread of the suggestion/concern by doing this.

14:32:33 [korn]

Shadi: similar concern - W3C is generally a consensus org

14:33:51 [korn]

Shadi: Looking specifically at DoC_ID_5 (at https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/48225/evaltfq4/results#x2631) the points raised by two folks (Shadi & Detlev) need to at a minimum recognize as a Resolution what is being done about those issues; and give folks time to agree/disagree. Or survey it an additional time.

14:34:31 [korn]

Shadi: the survey isn't the decision-making body, just a way to gather input. Only after no further decisions/discussions can you assume consensus on the resolution of comment.

14:35:58 [korn]

Shadi: see on the other hand DoC_ID_15 where all had "accept" but there were some comments. This is an editor discretion situation...

14:36:24 [korn]

Eric: OK; so we should discuss DoC_ID_5

14:37:19 [korn]

Shadi: looking at DoC_ID_5, might propose a specific resolution in the meeting (or e-mail) reacting to it.

14:37:45 [korn]

Shadi: DoC_ID_11 has objections, so that clearly needs discussion in the meeting

14:37:51 [korn]

q+

14:38:11 [shadi]

ack me

14:38:32 [ericvelleman]

q?

14:39:38 [korn]

Peter: thinks that the idea of an editors draft by next week is a bit optimistic given the number of outstanding questions in Q4

14:40:51 [shadi]

q+

14:40:53 [korn]

Katie: agrees - folks who suggest changes in the questionaire typically have something to say. May be dealt with quickly, but should be dealt with.

14:40:55 [korn]

ack korn

14:40:58 [ericvelleman]

q?

14:41:10 [shadi]

ack me

14:41:13 [korn]

Eric: a bit too enthusiastic closing issues...

14:41:42 [korn]

Shadi: being more optimistic: having an editor draft folks can look at may be a little tight, but the number of open issues may seem more overhwelming than they actually are.

14:41:46 [korn]

q+

14:43:03 [korn]

Peter: perhaps we might discuss the questionaire items, vs. discussing the broader issues behind discussing them... :-)

14:43:57 [korn]

Eric: proceeding with DoC_ID_5...

14:45:15 [korn]

Shadi: suggests that the contents of Doc_ID_5 might be most efficiently handled via e-mail ahead of a meeting (e.g.a proposed resolution that might be quickly supported by voice in the meeting)

14:46:20 [vivienne]

q+

14:46:25 [korn]

ack korn

14:46:35 [ericvelleman]

q?

14:46:38 [vivienne]

ack me

14:46:51 [korn]

Vivienne: looking at DoC_ID_11, and that might be one that needs some discussion.

14:47:05 [korn]

ack vivienne

14:47:14 [vivienne]

zakim, mute me

14:47:14 [Zakim]

vivienne should now be muted

14:51:11 [korn]

Peter: suggests quoting the precise substring from the comment in the questionaire so that folks can more easily understand it.

14:52:27 [ericvelleman]

q?

14:52:32 [korn]

q+

14:52:49 [korn]

q-

14:53:47 [vivienne]

q+

14:54:11 [korn]

Shadi: we may reall need pre-work (from Shadi & Eric) for comments like this to clearly parse unclear comments, to enable the group to better digest them

14:54:15 [vivienne]

ack me

14:54:39 [korn]

Vivienne: might it be a worthwhile exercize to take the draft, and put the questions just in front of the sections they pertain to.

14:55:01 [shadi]

q+

14:55:12 [shadi]

ack me

14:55:14 [korn]

Vivienne: what do you think?

14:55:36 [korn]

Shadi: in some situations that might be useful. E.g. if there is an open question we want to keep for public review or for the group to keep thinking about longer term.

14:56:07 [vivienne]

zakim, mute me

14:56:07 [Zakim]

vivienne should now be muted

14:56:09 [korn]

Shadi: but thinks it is quite high overhead to clearly insert such questions & then remove them later. Having links from survey into the document is perhaps often sufficient.

14:56:13 [korn]

ack shadi

14:56:46 [korn]

Eric: sometimes did propose in questionnaire resolution of adding an editor note in response to public feedback.

14:57:05 [korn]

Eric: seems we were almost agreeing on ID_11, so in last 4 minutes... perhaps we can close it?

14:57:55 [korn]

Shadi: perhaps all needed for 11 identify the other places where this applies; you already have content in step 5, so you may be more easily able to find which sections interrelate...

14:58:26 [korn]

Shadi: a small sweep through the document by the editor may be able to surface them and resolve the comments.

14:58:54 [shadi]

s/sweep/tweak

15:01:10 [ericvelleman]

q?

15:02:02 [vivienne]

zakim, unmute me

15:02:02 [Zakim]

vivienne should no longer be muted

15:02:14 [korn]

Eric: will try to put the easy things to do in a questionnaire, and separate discussions for others

15:02:26 [MartijnHoutepen]

zakim, unmute me

15:02:26 [Zakim]

MartijnHoutepen should no longer be muted

15:02:41 [Zakim]

-Tim_Boland

15:02:43 [Zakim]

-Katie_Haritos-Shea

15:02:47 [vivienne]

bye

15:02:50 [Zakim]

-MartijnHoutepen

15:02:54 [ericvelleman]

ericvelleman has left #eval

15:02:57 [Zakim]

-MoeKraft

15:03:02 [Zakim]

-Peter

15:03:04 [Zakim]

-vivienne

15:03:15 [Zakim]

-ericvelleman

15:03:16 [Zakim]

-Shadi

15:03:17 [Zakim]

WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has ended

15:03:17 [Zakim]

Attendees were Katie_Haritos-Shea, vivienne, +31.30.239.aaaa, +31.30.239.aabb, MartijnHoutepen, ericvelleman, Peter_Korn, Shadi, MoeKraft, Peter, Tim_Boland

15:03:28 [shadi]

trackbot, end meeting

15:03:28 [trackbot]

Zakim, list attendees

15:03:28 [Zakim]

sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is

15:03:36 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, please draft minutes

15:03:36 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/26-eval-minutes.html trackbot

15:03:37 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, bye

15:03:37 [RRSAgent]

I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/07/26-eval-actions.rdf :

15:03:37 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: eric to add URLs to the disposition of comments [1]

15:03:37 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/07/26-eval-irc#T14-19-17