IRC log of eval on 2012-07-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:49:06 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #eval
13:49:06 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/07/26-eval-irc
13:49:07 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
13:49:08 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #eval
13:49:09 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 3825
13:49:10 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 11 minutes
13:49:10 [trackbot]
Meeting: WCAG 2.0 Evaluation Methodology Task Force Teleconference
13:49:11 [trackbot]
Date: 26 July 2012
13:54:56 [Zakim]
WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has now started
13:55:03 [Zakim]
+Katie_Haritos-Shea
13:55:32 [ericvelleman]
ericvelleman has joined #eval
13:59:37 [vivienne]
vivienne has joined #eval
14:00:31 [Zakim]
+??P14
14:00:33 [MartijnHoutepen]
MartijnHoutepen has joined #eval
14:00:39 [vivienne]
zakim, ??P14 is me
14:00:39 [Zakim]
+vivienne; got it
14:01:11 [Zakim]
+ +31.30.239.aaaa
14:02:09 [Zakim]
+ +31.30.239.aabb
14:02:47 [MartijnHoutepen]
zakim, aabb is me
14:02:47 [Zakim]
+MartijnHoutepen; got it
14:03:02 [MartijnHoutepen]
zakim, aaaa is ericvelleman
14:03:02 [Zakim]
+ericvelleman; got it
14:03:04 [korn]
korn has joined #eval
14:03:10 [MartijnHoutepen]
zakim, mute me
14:03:10 [Zakim]
MartijnHoutepen should now be muted
14:03:14 [Zakim]
+Peter_Korn
14:03:20 [korn]
Zakim, Oracle has Peter_Korn
14:03:20 [Zakim]
sorry, korn, I do not recognize a party named 'Oracle'
14:04:58 [MartijnHoutepen]
ack me
14:05:38 [Zakim]
+Shadi
14:07:15 [MartijnHoutepen]
scribenick:korn
14:07:47 [MartijnHoutepen]
zakim, mute me
14:07:47 [Zakim]
MartijnHoutepen should now be muted
14:08:06 [ericvelleman]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/comments.html
14:08:08 [shadi]
Topic: Disposition of Comments
14:09:20 [korn]
Eric: Looking at the disposition of comments
14:10:02 [korn]
Eric: see column "Nature" for what Eric did with it
14:10:10 [MoeKraft]
MoeKraft has joined #eval
14:10:29 [korn]
Eric: Qx where "x" is the questionaire it was discussed in
14:10:49 [Zakim]
+MoeKraft
14:11:37 [korn]
Eric: URL at end of each resolution column block
14:12:00 [korn]
q+
14:12:53 [ericvelleman]
q?
14:13:08 [korn]
Peter: could the URLs in Resolution column be live?
14:13:14 [Tim]
Tim has joined #eval
14:13:16 [MartijnHoutepen]
q- korn
14:13:46 [shadi]
agenda+ Tracker Tool
14:15:01 [shadi]
zakim, drop agendum 1
14:15:01 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Tracker Tool, dropped
14:15:28 [korn]
agenda+ Next Steps
14:15:48 [shadi]
agenda?
14:17:06 [korn]
agenda+ Questionnaire
14:17:10 [korn]
agenda+ Other issues
14:17:13 [korn]
agenda?
14:18:08 [Zakim]
+[Oracle]
14:18:18 [Zakim]
-Peter_Korn
14:18:30 [shadi]
zakim, oracle is Peter
14:18:30 [Zakim]
+Peter; got it
14:19:17 [shadi]
action: eric to add URLs to the disposition of comments
14:19:17 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-4 - Add URLs to the disposition of comments [on Eric Velleman - due 2012-08-02].
14:19:54 [ericvelleman]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/2011/eval/track/
14:20:08 [shadi]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/2011/eval/track/actions/4
14:21:41 [korn]
Eric: we should use the tracker to track open issues, other things we need to track.
14:22:07 [korn]
q+
14:22:16 [ericvelleman]
q?
14:22:42 [shadi]
q+
14:22:44 [korn]
Peter: Eric you are suggesting that all unresolved comments or "to write" tasks become Actions?
14:22:45 [shadi]
ack korn
14:23:27 [korn]
Eric: yes, that's what I mean
14:23:38 [korn]
ack shadi
14:23:59 [korn]
Shadi: suggests a strong separatation between actions & issues
14:24:16 [korn]
Shadi: actions are for specific things; issues are broader (e.g. "consider aggregation on individual website parts")
14:24:30 [vivienne]
zakim, mute me
14:24:30 [Zakim]
vivienne should now be muted
14:24:44 [Zakim]
+Tim_Boland
14:24:51 [korn]
Shadi: actions have deadlines (which can be adjusted - by default they are 1 week out from being created)
14:24:52 [ericvelleman]
q?
14:25:10 [vivienne]
fine with me
14:25:11 [korn]
Eric: OK w/all that we do this to close down comments?
14:25:11 [MartijnHoutepen]
+1
14:25:15 [korn]
+1
14:25:29 [shadi]
+10
14:25:33 [Tim]
+1
14:25:35 [MoeKraft]
+1
14:25:52 [vivienne]
+1
14:25:56 [vivienne]
+!
14:26:00 [vivienne]
+1
14:26:11 [korn]
zakim, next item
14:26:11 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Next Steps" taken up [from korn]
14:26:55 [korn]
Eric: plans to put all comments into next editor draft, and make changes to dispositions of comments; add issues/actions to tracker
14:27:16 [korn]
Eric: all should be on-line tomorrow, and have complete week 'til next call to discuss the next editor draft.
14:27:30 [korn]
Eric: question before us would be: are we ready for a next editor draft?
14:27:43 [korn]
zakim, next item
14:27:43 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Questionnaire" taken up [from korn]
14:27:49 [ericvelleman]
https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/48225/evaltfq4/
14:28:29 [korn]
Eric: lots of folks answering - good work! Many "accept proposed"!
14:28:45 [korn]
q+
14:29:55 [ericvelleman]
q?
14:30:05 [shadi]
q+
14:30:24 [korn]
Eric: for items with overwhelming "accept" (and perhaps a few "with comments") went ahead and closed the comment, putting the "with comments" into "resolution" column to be dealt with in next draft
14:32:08 [korn]
Peter: worries about that approach, too easy to loose the thread of the suggestion/concern by doing this.
14:32:33 [korn]
Shadi: similar concern - W3C is generally a consensus org
14:33:51 [korn]
Shadi: Looking specifically at DoC_ID_5 (at https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/48225/evaltfq4/results#x2631) the points raised by two folks (Shadi & Detlev) need to at a minimum recognize as a Resolution what is being done about those issues; and give folks time to agree/disagree. Or survey it an additional time.
14:34:31 [korn]
Shadi: the survey isn't the decision-making body, just a way to gather input. Only after no further decisions/discussions can you assume consensus on the resolution of comment.
14:35:58 [korn]
Shadi: see on the other hand DoC_ID_15 where all had "accept" but there were some comments. This is an editor discretion situation...
14:36:24 [korn]
Eric: OK; so we should discuss DoC_ID_5
14:37:19 [korn]
Shadi: looking at DoC_ID_5, might propose a specific resolution in the meeting (or e-mail) reacting to it.
14:37:45 [korn]
Shadi: DoC_ID_11 has objections, so that clearly needs discussion in the meeting
14:37:51 [korn]
q+
14:38:11 [shadi]
ack me
14:38:32 [ericvelleman]
q?
14:39:38 [korn]
Peter: thinks that the idea of an editors draft by next week is a bit optimistic given the number of outstanding questions in Q4
14:40:51 [shadi]
q+
14:40:53 [korn]
Katie: agrees - folks who suggest changes in the questionaire typically have something to say. May be dealt with quickly, but should be dealt with.
14:40:55 [korn]
ack korn
14:40:58 [ericvelleman]
q?
14:41:10 [shadi]
ack me
14:41:13 [korn]
Eric: a bit too enthusiastic closing issues...
14:41:42 [korn]
Shadi: being more optimistic: having an editor draft folks can look at may be a little tight, but the number of open issues may seem more overhwelming than they actually are.
14:41:46 [korn]
q+
14:43:03 [korn]
Peter: perhaps we might discuss the questionaire items, vs. discussing the broader issues behind discussing them... :-)
14:43:57 [korn]
Eric: proceeding with DoC_ID_5...
14:45:15 [korn]
Shadi: suggests that the contents of Doc_ID_5 might be most efficiently handled via e-mail ahead of a meeting (e.g.a proposed resolution that might be quickly supported by voice in the meeting)
14:46:20 [vivienne]
q+
14:46:25 [korn]
ack korn
14:46:35 [ericvelleman]
q?
14:46:38 [vivienne]
ack me
14:46:51 [korn]
Vivienne: looking at DoC_ID_11, and that might be one that needs some discussion.
14:47:05 [korn]
ack vivienne
14:47:14 [vivienne]
zakim, mute me
14:47:14 [Zakim]
vivienne should now be muted
14:51:11 [korn]
Peter: suggests quoting the precise substring from the comment in the questionaire so that folks can more easily understand it.
14:52:27 [ericvelleman]
q?
14:52:32 [korn]
q+
14:52:49 [korn]
q-
14:53:47 [vivienne]
q+
14:54:11 [korn]
Shadi: we may reall need pre-work (from Shadi & Eric) for comments like this to clearly parse unclear comments, to enable the group to better digest them
14:54:15 [vivienne]
ack me
14:54:39 [korn]
Vivienne: might it be a worthwhile exercize to take the draft, and put the questions just in front of the sections they pertain to.
14:55:01 [shadi]
q+
14:55:12 [shadi]
ack me
14:55:14 [korn]
Vivienne: what do you think?
14:55:36 [korn]
Shadi: in some situations that might be useful. E.g. if there is an open question we want to keep for public review or for the group to keep thinking about longer term.
14:56:07 [vivienne]
zakim, mute me
14:56:07 [Zakim]
vivienne should now be muted
14:56:09 [korn]
Shadi: but thinks it is quite high overhead to clearly insert such questions & then remove them later. Having links from survey into the document is perhaps often sufficient.
14:56:13 [korn]
ack shadi
14:56:46 [korn]
Eric: sometimes did propose in questionnaire resolution of adding an editor note in response to public feedback.
14:57:05 [korn]
Eric: seems we were almost agreeing on ID_11, so in last 4 minutes... perhaps we can close it?
14:57:55 [korn]
Shadi: perhaps all needed for 11 identify the other places where this applies; you already have content in step 5, so you may be more easily able to find which sections interrelate...
14:58:26 [korn]
Shadi: a small sweep through the document by the editor may be able to surface them and resolve the comments.
14:58:54 [shadi]
s/sweep/tweak
15:01:10 [ericvelleman]
q?
15:02:02 [vivienne]
zakim, unmute me
15:02:02 [Zakim]
vivienne should no longer be muted
15:02:14 [korn]
Eric: will try to put the easy things to do in a questionnaire, and separate discussions for others
15:02:26 [MartijnHoutepen]
zakim, unmute me
15:02:26 [Zakim]
MartijnHoutepen should no longer be muted
15:02:41 [Zakim]
-Tim_Boland
15:02:43 [Zakim]
-Katie_Haritos-Shea
15:02:47 [vivienne]
bye
15:02:50 [Zakim]
-MartijnHoutepen
15:02:54 [ericvelleman]
ericvelleman has left #eval
15:02:57 [Zakim]
-MoeKraft
15:03:02 [Zakim]
-Peter
15:03:04 [Zakim]
-vivienne
15:03:15 [Zakim]
-ericvelleman
15:03:16 [Zakim]
-Shadi
15:03:17 [Zakim]
WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has ended
15:03:17 [Zakim]
Attendees were Katie_Haritos-Shea, vivienne, +31.30.239.aaaa, +31.30.239.aabb, MartijnHoutepen, ericvelleman, Peter_Korn, Shadi, MoeKraft, Peter, Tim_Boland
15:03:28 [shadi]
trackbot, end meeting
15:03:28 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
15:03:28 [Zakim]
sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
15:03:36 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:03:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/26-eval-minutes.html trackbot
15:03:37 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
15:03:37 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/07/26-eval-actions.rdf :
15:03:37 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: eric to add URLs to the disposition of comments [1]
15:03:37 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/07/26-eval-irc#T14-19-17