14:53:10 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
14:53:10 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/07/25-rdf-wg-irc
14:53:12 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:53:12 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdf-wg
14:53:14 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
14:53:14 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
14:53:15 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:53:15 <trackbot> Date: 25 July 2012
14:53:19 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started
14:53:26 <Zakim> +Guus
14:53:38 <Guus> Guus has joined #rdf-wg
14:57:13 <mlnt> mlnt has joined #rdf-wg
14:57:13 <Zakim> +sandro
14:59:00 <gavinc> gavinc has joined #rdf-wg
14:59:56 <Zakim> +gavinc
15:00:22 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
15:00:22 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, sandro, gavinc
15:00:41 <Arnaud> Arnaud has joined #rdf-wg
15:00:57 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
15:01:04 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:01:04 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
15:01:07 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
15:01:07 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
15:01:31 <Zakim> +??P14
15:01:33 <Zakim> +??P13
15:01:39 <gkellogg> zakim, I am ??P13
15:01:39 <Zakim> +gkellogg; got it
15:01:42 <Zakim> +Arnaud
15:04:30 <PatH> PatH has joined #rdf-wg
15:04:40 <mlnt> zakim, what's the code?
15:05:01 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), mlnt
15:05:15 <Zakim> +PatH
15:05:31 <Zakim> +??P27
15:05:36 <ericP> Zakim, ??P27 is me
15:05:38 <Zakim> +ericP; got it
15:06:01 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-wg
15:06:33 <Zakim> +??P28
15:06:46 <mlnt> zakim, I am ??P28
15:06:46 <Zakim> +mlnt; got it
15:06:50 <Souri> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:06:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, sandro, gavinc, MacTed (muted), ??P14, gkellogg, Arnaud, PatH, ericP, mlnt
15:07:08 <Souri> zakim, ??P14 is me
15:07:08 <Zakim> +Souri; got it
15:07:13 <Zakim> +??P32
15:07:27 <ericP> Guus: there's usually a helpful crowd
15:07:32 <ericP> ... and some more
15:07:36 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P32 is me
15:07:36 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it
15:07:41 <ericP> sandro: "usually"
15:07:55 <Zakim> +??P29
15:08:07 <SteveH> Zakim, ??P29 is me
15:08:07 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it
15:09:03 <Arnaud> minutes from last meeting need to be cleaned up
15:09:06 <cygri> cygri has joined #rdf-wg
15:09:28 <Arnaud> sandro: nicknames should be put in tracker
15:09:36 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/users
15:09:48 <Zakim> -ericP
15:10:16 <Arnaud> minutes are accepted
15:11:03 <Arnaud> no pending action items
15:11:09 <Zakim> +mhausenblas
15:11:14 <cygri> zakim, mhausenblas is temporarily me
15:11:14 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
15:11:17 <mlnt> gkellogg: just did it, thanks
15:11:59 <Arnaud> open actions stay as they stand
15:12:12 <Arnaud> next telcon on August 8
15:12:27 <Arnaud> next f2f in Lyon on Oct 29-30
15:12:52 <Arnaud> for registration information see: http://www.w3.org/2012/10/TPAC/
15:13:47 <Arnaud> sandro: recommends staying at least on Wednesday and possibly Thursday and Friday to join other groups as observers although rooms are very small and it's not clear how many observers can be accommodated
15:14:32 <gkellogg_> gkellogg_ has joined #rdf-wg
15:14:59 <Arnaud> arnaud: are we planning on meeting with other groups?
15:15:00 <Zakim> +??P27
15:15:08 <Arnaud> guus: not sure yet
15:15:18 <ericP> Zakim, ??P27 is me
15:15:18 <Zakim> +ericP; got it
15:16:09 <Arnaud> sandro: one possibility would be with sparql wg, another would be linked data platform
15:16:35 <Arnaud> guus: one obvious topic would be json-ld
15:16:45 <Arnaud> guus: to be continued
15:18:17 <PatH> i must have missed this. link to email?
15:18:25 <Arnaud> cuus: Provenance LC - chair asked specific questions and we need volunteers to try and answer them
15:18:32 <Arnaud> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Jul/0043.html
15:18:43 <Arnaud> s/cuus/guus/
15:18:45 <gkellogg> s/cuus/guus/
15:19:34 <Arnaud> path volunteers
15:20:09 <Arnaud> ACTION: PatH to start discussion on answer the questions on Provenance LC
15:20:09 <trackbot> Created ACTION-178 - Start discussion on answer the questions on Provenance LC [on Patrick Hayes - due 2012-08-01].
15:20:20 <Arnaud> s/anwer/answering/
15:21:35 <Arnaud> guus: would be nice to have volunteers to review the spec
15:21:41 <Arnaud> ... none for now
15:21:52 <Arnaud> Turtle LC
15:22:49 <Arnaud> request from TimBL for addition
15:23:06 <PatH> q+
15:23:12 <cygri> zakim, who is noisy?
15:23:27 <Zakim> cygri, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus (40%)
15:23:57 <gavinc> gavinc: a number of small bugs, that are resolved in the ED but not sure how to resolve in LC
15:24:20 <Arnaud> guus: we have not raised issues yet, have we?
15:24:43 <Arnaud> gavinc: some are already solved and not worth recording as issues
15:25:23 <PatH> q-
15:25:26 <Arnaud> guus: turtle prefixes?
15:25:51 <ericP> "a:b:c" was ambiguous
15:25:54 <Arnaud> gavinc: was a bug in the grammar, regarding use of colon, that is now resolved in editor's draft
15:26:57 <Arnaud> sandro: concern some people may think that's too big a change after LC but that'd be silly
15:27:01 <Arnaud> gavinc: agreed
15:27:13 <ericP> if we change tests, do we go back to LC?
15:27:19 <gavinc> I was told NO
15:27:20 <sandro> no.
15:27:24 <gavinc> That tests were NOT part of the LC
15:27:44 <Arnaud> guus: TimBL's request should be entered as an issue
15:27:46 <tbaker> tbaker has joined #rdf-wg
15:27:48 <sandro> can we be more clear about the test cases?
15:28:00 <sandro> q?
15:28:02 <sandro> q+
15:29:41 <Arnaud> gavinc: regarding inverse property, would like to have a strawpoll from the group to find out whether people are interested
15:29:46 <ericP> <mailto:bob@example.com> is foaf:mbox of <http://bob.example/#me> .
15:30:06 <Arnaud> gavinc: if people are interested, will then figure out a proposal
15:30:15 <PatH> +1 from me
15:30:21 <gkellogg> +1 from me
15:30:25 <yvesr> +1 from me
15:30:27 <sandro> +1 syntax for inverse arcs, prefered syntax for me is ^ I think.
15:30:30 <mlnt> +1
15:30:31 <cygri> +1
15:30:36 <yvesr> (although there is a strong case to use SPARQL-like syntax for that)
15:30:41 <Souri> +0.5 from me
15:30:43 <ericP> +1 to sandro's punctuation ammedment
15:30:49 <MacTed> +1
15:30:54 <gavinc> 0
15:31:01 <PatH> agree about the english part
15:31:04 <SteveH> +0.5 to ^, -0.5 for pseudo english
15:31:50 <SteveH> q+ to ask about SPARQL compat
15:31:51 <gkellogg> what about implications for literal as subject?
15:31:52 <PatH> its very handy in rdfa
15:31:52 <ericP> i think the sayntax has to fit in a whole in the SPARQL punctuation
15:31:55 <Souri> I prefer the inverse syntax ( ^p) over "is .. of"
15:31:56 <Arnaud> gavinc: we need to liaise with sparql wg
15:32:07 <Arnaud> gavinc will work on a proposal
15:32:16 <gkellogg> q+
15:32:30 <PatH> <wave>danbri</wave>
15:32:40 <sandro> ^elt	InversePath	Inverse path (object to subject).    -- from http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-query/#pp-language
15:33:01 <ericP> sandro, have you looked for grammar which doesn't conflict with SPARQL?
15:33:03 <danbri> Re "is ... of", per rdf-comments thread, I'd support a punctuation-based notation if it were added to Turtle _and_ SPARQL. But let's not have pseudo-English...
15:33:33 <danbri> (and I don't see any strong implications for literal as subject)
15:34:14 <gavinc> http://www.w3.org/TR/turtle/tests/ 
15:35:18 <Arnaud> sandro asked about status of test cases
15:35:46 <Arnaud> ericP: done some worked on them but not aware of test cases being normative
15:35:53 <Arnaud> s/worked/work/
15:36:00 <SteveH> q-
15:36:20 <Arnaud> sandro: the URL is really bad, would need a note indicating this is a proposal
15:36:21 <sandro> q-
15:36:34 <Arnaud> ericp: we could fix them
15:37:06 <gkellogg> In the Microdata to RDF spec, we reference them non-nomatively in an appendix
15:37:11 <gkellogg> http://www.w3.org/TR/microdata-rdf/#testing
15:37:11 <Arnaud> sandro: need to be fixed for CR
15:37:29 <Arnaud> gavinc: 4 or 5 are broken with regard to the new syntax
15:37:49 <Arnaud> ericp: fix them or put a big warning on them?
15:38:48 <Arnaud> sandro: this should never have been published as is, we aren't allowed to change them now
15:39:09 <Arnaud> .. was the publication agreed by the group?
15:39:13 <Arnaud> gavinc: no
15:39:31 <Guus> q+
15:39:36 <Guus> q-
15:39:40 <gavinc> http://www.w3.org/TR/turtle/tests/base1.ttl
15:39:44 <Arnaud> sandro: there is no commentary about the status of these tests
15:40:41 <cygri> q+
15:40:42 <Arnaud> sandro will ask permission to add a note stating these have not been approved by the WG yet
15:41:03 <sandro> action: sandro try to get permission to put a box on http://www.w3.org/TR/turtle/tests explaining that these tests have not been approved
15:41:03 <trackbot> Created ACTION-179 - Try to get permission to put a box on http://www.w3.org/TR/turtle/tests explaining that these tests have not been approved [on Sandro Hawke - due 2012-08-01].
15:41:22 <cygri> q-
15:41:37 <Guus> ack g
15:42:01 <ericP> "Bob" ^foaf:name <http://bob.example/#me> .
15:43:30 <cygri> q+
15:43:54 <ericP> <http://bob.example/#me> ^foaf:bogusName "Bob" .
15:43:55 <PatH> there are going to be people who want this flexibility in any case.
15:45:42 <Arnaud> gkellogg: re: inverse property, not sure it's worth ensuring the syntax prevents not valid rdf
15:45:53 <cygri> ack me
15:46:09 <Arnaud> sandro: this will be controversial
15:46:40 <Arnaud> guus: moving on to JSON-LD
15:46:45 <danbri> (syntax rules can never protect against crappy data; for everything we rule out, someone'll find another way to screw up)
15:47:14 <PatH> +1 danbri. And some of that crap is useful.
15:48:31 <sandro> q+ to say gosh I wish this wasn't considered a SYNTAX issue   :-(
15:49:47 <Arnaud> gkellogg: group is discussing several requests they have received
15:51:44 <gkellogg>   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-linked-json/2012Jul/0040.html
15:51:59 <sandro> gkellogg: we're thinking about a mechanism for macro expansion as part of parsing.
15:52:12 <mlnt> http://json-ld.org/minutes/2012-07-24/
15:54:28 <Arnaud> sandro: seems like you're reinventing a rule mechanism
15:55:42 <Arnaud> gkellogg: most of the expansion mechanism is in the json domain, doesn't affect the rdf one
15:56:06 <Arnaud> gkellogg: encourages people to read the minutes and participate in the discussion if they are interested
15:56:25 <Arnaud> sandro: interested but doens't have time to participate, please, take my comment seriously
15:56:31 <Arnaud> gkellogg: ok
15:56:38 <Guus> q?
15:56:42 <Guus> ack s
15:56:42 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to say gosh I wish this wasn't considered a SYNTAX issue   :-(
15:56:47 <sandro> sandro: PLEASE don't create a new rule mechanism that's json-specific
15:57:53 <mlnt> link to the issue Gregg is currently talking about: https://github.com/json-ld/json-ld.org/issues/146
15:58:00 <mlnt> e.g. "position": ["18.324235", "-36.4387934"]
15:58:29 <Arnaud> guus: haven't seen any comments on the mailing list
15:58:53 <Arnaud> ... need you to pass along issues sent to the community list
15:59:58 <Guus> q?
16:00:20 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/2005/01/yacker/uploads/A?lang=perl&text=%22Bob%22+^foaf%3Aname+%3Chttp%3A%2F%2Fbob.example%2F%23me%3E+.%0D%0A%3Chttp%3A%2F%2Fbob.example%2F%23me%3E+^foaf%3Aknows+%3Chttp%3A%2F%2Fsue.example%2F%23me%3E+.%0D%0A&action=validate+text
16:00:23 <Arnaud> guus: any other agenda item?
16:00:40 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/2005/01/yacker/uploads/A?lang=perl&text=%3Chttp%3A%2F%2Fbob.example%2F%23me%3E+^foaf%3AbogusName+%22Bob%22+.&action=validate+text
16:00:51 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/2005/01/yacker/uploads/A?lang=perl&text=%22Bob%22+foaf%3AbogusName+%3Chttp%3A%2F%2Fbob.example%2F%23me%3E++.&action=validate+text
16:00:53 <Arnaud> guus: meeting adjourned
16:00:57 <Zakim> -SteveH
16:01:06 <PatH>  see yall.
16:01:06 <Zakim> -cygri
16:01:07 <Zakim> -Arnaud
16:01:15 <Zakim> -PatH
16:01:17 <Zakim> -mlnt
16:01:32 <Arnaud> I need to jump to another call, I leave it to you guys to do your magic to generate the minutes (hopefully not too crappy ;-)
16:01:43 <Zakim> -Souri
16:01:50 <gavinc> http://www.w3.org/2005/01/yacker/uploads/A/bnf?lang=perl
16:02:08 <ericP> -[6]     triples               ::= subject predicateObjectList | blankNodePropertyList predicateObjectList?
16:02:11 <ericP> +[6]     triples               ::= subject predicateObjectList | literal inversePredicateObjectList | blankNodePropertyList predicateObjectList? [7]     predicateObjectList   ::= verb objectList (';' verb objectList)* ';'?
16:02:14 <Guus> trackbot, draft minutes
16:02:14 <trackbot> Sorry, Guus, I don't understand 'trackbot, draft minutes'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
16:02:15 <ericP> +[7b]    inversePredicateObjectList ::= inverseVerb subjectList (';' inverseVerb subjectList)* ';'? [8]     objectList            ::= object (',' object)*
16:02:18 <ericP> +[8a]     subjectList               ::= subject (',' subject)* [9]     verb                  ::= predicate | 'a'
16:02:21 <ericP> +[9a]     inverseVerb               ::= '^' (predicate | 'a')
16:02:29 <ericP> -[6]     triples               ::= subject predicateObjectList | blankNodePropertyList predicateObjectList?
16:02:32 <ericP> +[6]     triples               ::= subject predicateObjectList | literal inversePredicateObjectList | blankNodePropertyList predicateObjectList?
16:02:35 <ericP> +[7b]    inversePredicateObjectList ::= inverseVerb subjectList (';' inverseVerb subjectList)* ';'?
16:02:38 <ericP> +[8a]     subjectList               ::= subject (',' subject)*
16:02:40 <ericP> +[9a]     inverseVerb               ::= '^' (predicate | 'a')
16:02:57 <Guus> trackbot, end meeting
16:02:57 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:02:57 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Guus, sandro, gavinc, MacTed, gkellogg, Arnaud, PatH, ericP, mlnt, Souri, yvesr, SteveH, cygri
16:03:05 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:03:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/25-rdf-wg-minutes.html trackbot
16:03:06 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:03:06 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/07/25-rdf-wg-actions.rdf :
16:03:06 <RRSAgent> ACTION: PatH to start discussion on answer the questions on Provenance LC [1]
16:03:06 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/07/25-rdf-wg-irc#T15-20-09
16:03:06 <RRSAgent> ACTION: sandro try to get permission to put a box on http://www.w3.org/TR/turtle/tests explaining that these tests have not been approved [2]
16:03:06 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/07/25-rdf-wg-irc#T15-41-03