15:03:05 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #prov
15:03:05 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/07/19-prov-irc
15:03:07 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:03:09 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 
15:03:10 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
15:03:10 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
15:03:11 <trackbot> Date: 19 July 2012
15:03:13 <pgroth> Zakim, this will be PROV
15:03:13 <Zakim> ok, pgroth, I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM already started
15:03:28 <pgroth> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.07.19
15:03:36 <Zakim> +??P30
15:03:41 <pgroth> Chair: Paul Groth
15:03:42 <TomDN> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:03:42 <Zakim> On the phone I see TomDN, ??P2, Luc, ??P11, stain, ??P25, ??P27, ??P30
15:03:46 <christine> christine has joined #prov
15:03:47 <pgroth> Scribe: TomDN
15:03:49 <Zakim> -??P25
15:03:57 <pgroth> Zakim, ??P25 is me
15:03:57 <Zakim> I already had ??P25 as ??P25, pgroth
15:04:11 <pgroth> rrsagent, make logs public
15:04:28 <Zakim> +??P25
15:04:32 <stain> I'm amazed - Zakim recognized me today..
15:04:37 <dgarijo> Zakim, ??P25 is me
15:04:37 <Zakim> + +44.131.467.aaaa - is perhaps jcheney?
15:04:37 <Zakim> +dgarijo; got it
15:04:52 <TomDN> zakim, mute me
15:04:52 <Zakim> TomDN should now be muted
15:04:59 <pgroth> Regrets: Curt Tilmes, Hook Hua, Stephan Zednik, Graham Klyne, Sandro Hawke
15:05:06 <jcheney> zakim, aaaa is me
15:05:07 <pgroth> Topic: Admin
15:05:11 <Zakim> sorry, jcheney, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
15:05:18 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-07-05
15:05:21 <jcheney> zakim, +44.131.467.aaaa is me
15:05:23 <pgroth> Minutes of the July 05, 2012 Telecon
15:05:24 <Zakim> sorry, jcheney, I do not recognize a party named '+44.131.467.aaaa'
15:05:27 <Luc> zakim, who is here?
15:05:29 <Zakim> On the phone I see TomDN (muted), ??P2, Luc, ??P11, stain, ??P27, ??P30, dgarijo, jcheney?
15:05:34 <Zakim> On IRC I see christine, RRSAgent, dgarijo, jcheney, Zakim, Paolo, smiles, Luc, Dong, pgroth, TomDN, MacTed, trackbot, stain, sandro
15:05:36 <TomDN> +0 (did not attend)
15:05:41 <smiles> 0
15:05:42 <dgarijo> +0 
15:05:49 <Paolo> +1
15:05:51 <jcheney> +1
15:05:59 <stain> +1
15:06:19 <pgroth> accepted: Minutes of the July 05, 2012 Telecon
15:06:26 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-07-12
15:06:39 <pgroth> Minutes of the July 12, 2012 Telecon
15:06:51 <smiles> 0
15:06:53 <Paolo> +1
15:06:59 <dgarijo> 0
15:07:00 <jcheney> +1
15:07:06 <stain> +1
15:07:31 <Zakim> +??P38
15:07:50 <pgroth> accepted: Minutes of the July 12, 2012 Telecon
15:07:52 <pgroth> q?
15:08:21 <TomDN> pgroth: Paolo and Paul still have an action
15:08:34 <pgroth> s/Paolo/Paulo/
15:08:41 <Zakim> + +238055aabb
15:08:48 <pgroth> Topic: Prov-Constraints
15:08:49 <stephenc> stephenc has joined #prov
15:09:11 <TomDN> pgroth: There has been a lot of email traffic on the constraints, and we're trying to get something out for review
15:09:39 <TomDN> jcheney: There's a clear plan to release something for review in the next day or two
15:09:49 <jcheney> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/prov-constraints.html
15:09:55 <TomDN> luc: aim for release for internal review is tomorrow
15:10:48 <TomDN> jcheney: There's been some discussion on the mailing list and some off-line discussion, but most results will be incorporated in the document for review
15:11:09 <TomDN> pgroth: By when would this be reviewed?
15:11:37 <TomDN> jcheney: goal is to get release LC on august 2nd
15:11:48 <TomDN> s/get/vote on
15:12:10 <TomDN> luc: reviews would be due by next Friday (July 27th)
15:12:42 <TomDN> jcheney: hopefully minor things after review can be fixed by august 2nd
15:13:07 <TomDN> ... Hopefully no problems that are too big arise
15:13:10 <Luc> could we ask GK to do it?
15:13:14 <smiles> I will
15:13:16 <stain> I will
15:13:37 <christine> Not sure I am suitably technically qualified to do a review.
15:13:55 <Dong> Dong has joined #prov
15:14:00 <Luc> q+
15:14:06 <stain> @christine - why not give it a go - that might be a good position to review from as well?
15:14:57 <pgroth> ack Luc
15:15:00 <tlebo> tlebo has joined #prov
15:15:13 <TomDN> luc: I'm a bit concerned about the timetable. We will have to discuss off-line that it's possible.
15:15:19 <pgroth> reviewers - simon, stain, paul for prov-constraints
15:15:27 <Dong> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:15:27 <Zakim> On the phone I see TomDN (muted), ??P2, Luc, ??P11, stain, ??P27, ??P30, dgarijo, jcheney?, ??P38, +238055aabb
15:15:28 <pgroth> q?
15:15:32 <Zakim> +tlebo
15:15:45 <TomDN> pgroth: thanks to all who are working on it
15:15:45 <pgroth> Topic: Draft of Dublin Core Mappings
15:16:24 <TomDN> dgarijo: I'm working on it, will deliver it in the next days
15:17:02 <TomDN> ... By beginning of next week. I'd like some people to review it then
15:17:56 <TomDN> pgroth: It would be nice to have it as a working draft (note) before august, but might not be possible
15:18:16 <TomDN> dgarijo: Should be no problem, since I am working on it alone
15:18:42 <pgroth> q?
15:18:59 <Luc> q+
15:19:00 <TomDN> pgroth: We need to get it into W3C format, include a link in the working draft list, and then get people's reviews/comments on it
15:19:09 <TomDN> ... Comments on this?
15:19:11 <pgroth> ack Luc
15:19:56 <pgroth> plan is to have an editor's draft early next week
15:20:00 <TomDN> Luc: Sounds good. If we get a document ready for internal release by early September, that's good.
15:20:12 <pgroth> a formal review process in sept
15:20:45 <TomDN> pgroth: We have a number of other working drafts
15:21:22 <stain> I would want to talk about Dictionary draft afterwards to figure out the who/when bit
15:21:24 <TomDN> ... First: Working draft XML
15:21:34 <TomDN> ... Has this team been in contact with Luc?
15:21:46 <pgroth> Topic: XML Schema
15:21:58 <TomDN> Luc: Stephan has been in touch to ask for draft XML schema. I don't know what the next step is.
15:22:27 <TomDN> pgroth: Let's talk about this next week, hopefully they will be on the call then.
15:22:28 <stain> feedback on what.. where is it?
15:22:56 <TomDN> Luc: Maybe also ask for feedback on the draft XML schema by then as well
15:23:09 <TomDN> ... We will put it on the wiki
15:23:09 <pgroth> q?
15:23:24 <pgroth> Topic: Dictionary
15:23:55 <stain> zakim, who is noisy?
15:24:01 <TomDN> pgroth: We agreed to put dictionaries into a separate note
15:24:03 <stain> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/prov-dictionary.html 
15:24:08 <Zakim> stain, listening for 12 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P27 (83%)
15:24:15 <TomDN> ... Who's working on it, and what's the timeline?
15:24:51 <TomDN> (sorry, who is speaking?)
15:25:01 <TomDN> thanks
15:25:14 <tlebo> Stian is speaking
15:25:25 <tlebo> stain ?
15:25:42 <TomDN> stain: I volunteered to be editor on this, but nothing has really lifted off yet
15:25:56 <TomDN> ... I would have time in august, and could use some people to help on this.
15:26:10 <pgroth> q?
15:26:22 <TomDN> pgroth: Sounds good. Having something in mid September would be ideal.
15:26:23 <tlebo> sounds good
15:26:23 <stain> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:26:23 <Zakim> On the phone I see TomDN (muted), ??P2, Luc, ??P11, stain, ??P27, ??P30, dgarijo, jcheney?, ??P38, +238055aabb, tlebo
15:26:36 <Paolo> I would like to help
15:26:37 <stain> Right - I wondered who could volunteer.. 
15:26:50 <Luc> happy to review
15:26:54 <tlebo> I'm on it :-/
15:26:59 <TomDN> pgroth: any volunteers to help?
15:27:08 <stain> sounds good
15:27:11 <TomDN> ... thanks Paolo, Luc, Tim
15:27:31 <pgroth> Topic: Timetable
15:27:43 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Tracking_Public_Comments
15:28:07 <TomDN> pgroth: We need someone coordinating incoming public comments
15:28:19 <TomDN> ... Please sign up through this link
15:28:51 <smiles> Yes
15:28:53 <stain> yes
15:28:56 <dgarijo> Me too
15:29:00 <smiles> OK
15:29:02 <TomDN> ... It's 1 week/person. Just keeping track of emails and providing replies
15:29:41 <smiles> If needs be, I can do that too
15:29:51 <TomDN> I can do 6-12
15:29:57 <TomDN> (needed to check agenda)
15:29:58 <dgarijo> I'm all august available
15:30:05 <dgarijo> ok
15:30:16 <tlebo> (I already took Aug 20 - Aug 26)
15:30:32 <Luc> have got to go, bye bye
15:30:33 <stain> I can do 26th-
15:30:39 <Zakim> -Luc
15:31:00 <TomDN> pgroth: good, that covers most of august for public comments, thanks.
15:31:26 <pgroth> Topic: Prov Namespace
15:32:00 <TomDN> pgroth: What do we do with dereferencability, especially if you have multiple nodes
15:32:15 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvNamespaceManagement
15:32:27 <TomDN> pgroth: This documents the various approaches
15:32:35 <TomDN> ... We need to settle on one.
15:33:20 <TomDN> pgroth: Solution 1: Merge all owl files into one namespace owl
15:33:34 <TomDN> ... Here the idea is that each note would maintain a separate owl file. 
15:33:45 <TomDN> ... Solution 2.1 Use owl:import, but return only PROV-O 
15:33:58 <TomDN> ... This hybrid solution is a single OWL file with the content of ProvenanceOntology.owl (PROV-O) - but with the additional owl:imports for the modules. It will include provenance to the OWL of the official REC that it is derived from. 
15:34:24 <TomDN> ... There were some modifications to this, which lead to Solution 2.2 Use owl:import and return full merge of PROV-O and all Notes 
15:34:52 <TomDN> ... and lastly: Solution 3 Define all terms in a single OWL file 
15:35:17 <TomDN> ... Terms that are not formally part of PROV-O would be described using just annotation properties (rdfs:label, rdfs:comment), so they don't show up in Ontology processing tools, but are still present for documentary purposes when the namespace is dereferenced. 
15:35:20 <pgroth> q?
15:35:30 <TomDN> pgroth: So which do you guys think is best?
15:35:44 <tlebo> +1 to the one I suggested :-) http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvNamespaceManagement#Solution_2.2_Use_owl:import_and_return_full_merge_of_PROV-O_and_all_Notes
15:36:01 <stain> In preference: 2.2, 2.1, 2, 3, 1
15:36:35 <TomDN> pgroth: I would be inclined to do 2.2 as well, which is basically the concatenation of everything
15:36:41 <dgarijo> I like 2.1 better, in case you don't want to handle everything at once.
15:36:47 <TomDN> ... Are there any objections to this?
15:36:50 <stain> you are just restating what is true - if you saved that file again from protege the merged things should disappear as they are implied by the import
15:37:06 <pgroth> q?
15:37:08 <tlebo> @dgarijo but what makes provo so special?
15:37:43 <stain> @dgarijo, if you don't want to, then import the version IRI of PROV-O (or whatever) instead
15:37:48 <Dong> I prefer to see all the terms defined by the WG
15:37:59 <dgarijo> @stian, tim:I see.
15:38:16 <pgroth> for the owl file that comes back from the prov namespace - (solution 2.2. ) Use owl:import and return full merge of PROV-O and all Notes
15:38:28 <pgroth> proposed: for the owl file that comes back from the prov namespace - (solution 2.2. ) Use owl:import and return full merge of PROV-O and all Notes
15:38:34 <smiles> +0.5 (fine as far as I understand, but not my expertise)
15:38:35 <tlebo> @stain right to @dgarijo , just grab the owl:imports and take those that you want (ignore everything else that comes back).
15:38:42 <stain> +1
15:38:43 <TomDN> +1
15:38:45 <dgarijo> +1
15:38:50 <Dong> +1
15:38:54 <tlebo> +1
15:39:04 <stain> if it does not actually work we can change it, right? This is not part of a REC
15:39:20 <TomDN> pgroth: Indeed
15:39:27 <pgroth> accepted: for the owl file that comes back from the prov namespace - (solution 2.2. ) Use owl:import and return full merge of PROV-O and all Notes
15:39:42 <stain> I'm sure Tim has some tricks up his sleeve for that
15:39:54 <TomDN> pgroth: Tim, do you have anything laying around to do this?
15:40:20 <TomDN> tlebo: I'll look in my box of owl-magic tricks
15:40:42 <TomDN> ... (yes, I will look into it)
15:40:48 <stain> here's one implementation: https://github.com/wf4ever/taverna-prov  - it would not cover a big % as of today
15:41:01 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvCRExitCriteria
15:41:15 <TomDN> pgroth: If you are thinking about implementations of PROV, this is a good time to start talking about them
15:41:17 <tlebo> @stain add it to http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvImplementations
15:41:17 <Dong> @pgroth, do we have a timetable for the implementation todos?
15:41:45 <TomDN> ... Please take a look at the exit criteria, and see if you can implement (some of) them
15:42:02 <TomDN> ... Implementation period will be 4-6 weeks
15:42:23 <pgroth> q?
15:42:30 <TomDN> ... But we'd like to start way before that, and definitely think about the report as well
15:42:47 <tlebo> q+
15:43:12 <jcheney> q+
15:43:24 <TomDN> tlebo: Now that stuff is released for LC, how do we deal with change management?
15:43:37 <TomDN> pgroth: Same as always, just create a new editor's draft
15:44:15 <TomDN> ... but do be careful about technical changes (since this is LC), but we can still make editorial changes.
15:44:26 <tlebo> e.g. http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/456 ?
15:44:56 <stain> @dgarijo would the PROV mapping for roevo and wfprov in wf4ever count for application page? Will we formalize those into the OWLs?
15:45:00 <TomDN> tlebo: I have a request to change the domain. Is this too much change, or not?
15:45:18 <TomDN> pgroth: I'll email sandro to make sure we don't make mistakes
15:45:32 <pgroth> ack tlebo 
15:45:59 <TomDN> jcheney: Will Tim review the constraints as well?
15:46:05 <TomDN> tlebo: Absolutely
15:46:36 <pgroth> q?
15:46:39 <pgroth> ack jcheney 
15:46:48 <tlebo> bye bye
15:46:51 <Zakim> -dgarijo
15:46:52 <Zakim> -tlebo
15:46:53 <Zakim> -??P11
15:46:53 <Zakim> -??P30
15:46:55 <TomDN> bye
15:47:00 <Zakim> -jcheney?
15:47:01 <Zakim> -??P2
15:47:01 <Zakim> -??P27
15:47:03 <TomDN> zakim, unmute me
15:47:03 <Zakim> TomDN should no longer be muted
15:47:05 <Zakim> -??P38
15:47:10 <stain> bye
15:47:13 <Zakim> -TomDN
15:47:14 <Zakim> -stain
15:47:25 <pgroth> rrsagent, set log public
15:47:30 <pgroth> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:47:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/19-prov-minutes.html pgroth
15:47:36 <pgroth> trackbot, end telcon
15:47:36 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
15:47:36 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been TomDN, Luc, stain, +44.131.467.aaaa, dgarijo, +238055aabb, tlebo
15:47:44 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:47:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/19-prov-minutes.html trackbot
15:47:45 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
15:47:45 <RRSAgent> I see no action items