IRC log of html-wg on 2012-07-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:55:33 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #html-wg
15:55:33 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/07/12-html-wg-irc
15:55:35 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:55:36 [yang]
zakim, ??P13 is me
15:55:36 [Zakim]
+yang; got it
15:55:37 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be html_wg
15:55:38 [trackbot]
Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference
15:55:38 [trackbot]
Date: 12 July 2012
15:55:38 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot, I see HTML_WG()12:00PM already started
15:56:18 [adrianba]
adrianba has joined #html-wg
15:58:00 [rubys]
rubys has joined #html-wg
15:59:07 [eliot]
eliot has joined #html-wg
15:59:14 [janina]
janina has joined #html-wg
15:59:43 [paulc]
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15:59:43 [Zakim]
+Sam
15:59:49 [laura]
laura has joined #html-wg
16:00:03 [mjs]
mjs has joined #html-wg
16:00:06 [Zakim]
+??P27
16:00:14 [glenn]
mjs: i already started trackbot
16:00:15 [janina]
zakim, ??P27 is Janina
16:00:15 [Zakim]
+Janina; got it
16:00:25 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
16:00:28 [eliot]
Zakim, Microsoft has me
16:00:28 [Zakim]
+eliot; got it
16:00:43 [MFoladare]
MFoladare has joined #html-wg
16:00:45 [glenn]
Chair: mjs
16:00:50 [glenn]
ScribeNick: glenn
16:00:53 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft.a]
16:00:53 [glenn]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2012JulSep/0004.html
16:01:11 [krisk]
krisk has joined #html-wg
16:01:11 [paulc]
zakim, [Microsoft] has paulc
16:01:11 [Zakim]
+paulc; got it
16:01:19 [paulc]
zakim, list attendees
16:01:19 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been glenn, yang, Sam, Janina, eliot, [Microsoft], paulc
16:01:22 [glenn]
Topic: ACTION items due by Thursday, July 12
16:01:37 [Zakim]
+Radhika_Roy
16:01:44 [Zakim]
+[GVoice]
16:01:53 [paulc]
zakim, [Microsoft] has eliot
16:01:53 [Zakim]
+eliot; got it
16:01:56 [ddorwin]
ddorwin has joined #html-wg
16:01:58 [glenn]
ACTION-217?
16:01:58 [trackbot]
ACTION-217 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to create a joint Path location add hit testing binding CP for ISSUE-201 that binds canvas to fallback content (Rich, Ted, Frank) -- due 2012-06-21 -- OPEN
16:01:58 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/217
16:02:13 [ddorwin]
zakim, [GVoice] is me
16:02:13 [Zakim]
+ddorwin; got it
16:02:28 [Zakim]
+Laura_Carlson
16:02:30 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft.aa]
16:02:49 [Zakim]
+mjs
16:02:53 [krisk]
zakim, [Microsoft.aa] is krisk
16:02:53 [Zakim]
+krisk; got it
16:02:55 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft.aa]
16:03:06 [cjones]
cjones has joined #html-wg
16:03:06 [Zakim]
+hober
16:03:17 [adrianba]
zakim, [Microsoft.aa] has adrianba
16:03:17 [Zakim]
+adrianba; got it
16:04:12 [paulc]
zakim, list attendees
16:04:12 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been glenn, yang, Sam, Janina, eliot, [Microsoft], paulc, Radhika_Roy, ddorwin, Laura_Carlson, mjs, krisk, hober, adrianba
16:04:21 [glenn]
mjs: one item ACTION-217
16:04:49 [adrianba]
zakim, [Microsoft.aa] has adrianba, frankolivier
16:04:49 [Zakim]
adrianba was already listed in [Microsoft.aa], adrianba
16:04:50 [Zakim]
+frankolivier; got it
16:04:52 [glenn]
... Ted and Frank are working this, SF has commented proposing his own
16:05:12 [paulc]
Steve's proposal is at http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/hitregions
16:05:19 [paulc]
This is a revision to Ted's proposal
16:05:29 [glenn]
hober: some outstanding feedback from SF and Rich which might result in some changes
16:05:35 [glenn]
... but thinks it is stable
16:05:37 [Zakim]
+ +1.818.370.aaaa
16:05:46 [glenn]
paulc: SF submitted comments/changes to Ted's proposal
16:06:05 [glenn]
... operative question is that others need to review SF's counter proposal
16:06:31 [glenn]
mjs: may need to go to survey, but two proposals are much closer now
16:06:51 [paulc]
Status of ISSUE-201: http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-201
16:07:13 [glenn]
close ACTION-217
16:07:13 [trackbot]
ACTION-217 Create a joint Path location add hit testing binding CP for ISSUE-201 that binds canvas to fallback content (Rich, Ted, Frank) closed
16:07:33 [glenn]
paulc: should there be new action on Ted to review?
16:07:40 [glenn]
mjs: thinks ML thread is sufficient
16:07:47 [glenn]
janina: heard from rich will post soon
16:07:56 [paulc]
Active discussion at: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Jul/0064.html
16:08:11 [glenn]
janina: nobody is disagreeing, sounds more like clarification discussion
16:08:41 [glenn]
mjs: still should be able to reach consensus
16:08:58 [glenn]
... continue discussion on ML
16:09:02 [glenn]
Topic: New Issues This Week
16:09:03 [glenn]
none
16:09:12 [glenn]
mjs: one tracker request
16:09:17 [glenn]
... to be LC2 comment
16:09:33 [glenn]
Topic: Items closed Last Week
16:09:38 [glenn]
ISSUE-189?
16:09:38 [trackbot]
ISSUE-189 -- Prefix convention needs to be coordinated with IETF -- open
16:09:38 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/189
16:09:57 [glenn]
ISSUE-200?
16:09:57 [trackbot]
ISSUE-200 -- Allow wrapping LEGEND (or new iLEGEND) in non-FIELDSET elements -- open
16:09:57 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/200
16:10:08 [glenn]
mjs: both calls have closed
16:10:16 [glenn]
Topic: Issues Closing This Week
16:10:18 [glenn]
none
16:10:24 [glenn]
Topic: Items Closing Next Week
16:10:37 [glenn]
ISSUE-199?
16:10:37 [trackbot]
ISSUE-199 -- Define complete processing requirements for ARIA attributes -- open
16:10:37 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/199
16:11:13 [glenn]
mjs: CfC active, revisions to CPs, consensus proposal present
16:11:22 [glenn]
Topic: New Calls This Week
16:11:27 [glenn]
ISSUE-199?
16:11:27 [trackbot]
ISSUE-199 -- Define complete processing requirements for ARIA attributes -- open
16:11:27 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/199
16:11:42 [glenn]
Topic: New Surveys This Week
16:11:44 [glenn]
ISSUE-200?
16:11:44 [trackbot]
ISSUE-200 -- Allow wrapping LEGEND (or new iLEGEND) in non-FIELDSET elements -- open
16:11:44 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/200
16:11:52 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, call MIke
16:11:52 [Zakim]
ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
16:11:54 [Zakim]
+MIke
16:12:02 [glenn]
ISSUE-189?
16:12:02 [trackbot]
ISSUE-189 -- Prefix convention needs to be coordinated with IETF -- open
16:12:02 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/189
16:12:21 [glenn]
mjs: Julian raised issue that IETF desires further discussion, will check with Philippe
16:12:26 [paulc]
q+
16:12:34 [glenn]
... may put survey on hold, but should still provide input
16:12:42 [glenn]
paulc: plh says go ahead with survey
16:12:42 [paulc]
ack paulc
16:13:00 [glenn]
paulc: will respond on ML on this thread
16:13:11 [glenn]
Topic: Decisions This Week
16:13:12 [glenn]
none
16:13:21 [glenn]
Topic: Task Force Reports
16:13:27 [glenn]
[1] Testing Task Force
16:13:43 [glenn]
kris: good morning, didn't meet last week will meet next week
16:13:51 [krisk]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/Testing#Upcoming_meetings
16:13:58 [glenn]
... schedule has been extended and posted on wiki
16:14:16 [glenn]
... had discussed spec change about pattern repeat, opened bug sent to list
16:14:20 [krisk]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Jul/0065.html
16:14:31 [glenn]
... will have to see what consensus develops
16:14:35 [yang]
q+
16:14:35 [glenn]
... q/c?
16:14:46 [mjs]
ack yang
16:15:00 [glenn]
yang: what day is testing call?
16:15:08 [krisk]
Please see http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/Testing
16:15:11 [glenn]
kris: see above link
16:15:41 [glenn]
yang: ok
16:15:46 [paulc]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/Testing#Conference_Calls
16:15:53 [glenn]
ack yang
16:16:10 [yang]
q+
16:16:11 [glenn]
[2] Accessibility Task Force
16:16:28 [glenn]
janina: not a lot to report
16:16:44 [glenn]
... people have continued working on their tasks
16:16:54 [glenn]
... lack of quorum in last call
16:16:59 [glenn]
... progress, but slower than usual
16:17:28 [glenn]
... chairs are aware of status changes on ISSUE-194, etc
16:17:46 [glenn]
... and on ISSUE-201, nothing to add on what's been said
16:18:03 [glenn]
... strongly opposed to moving ISSUE-203 forward before resolving ISSUE-30
16:18:17 [Zakim]
+ +1.415.832.aabb
16:18:22 [glenn]
[that is the TF is opposed]
16:18:41 [glenn]
mjs: yang is on queue
16:19:12 [glenn]
yang: noticed on ML that may decide on 3 options on ISSUE-194
16:19:30 [paulc]
http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-194
16:19:36 [glenn]
... will we discuss on this call?
16:19:45 [glenn]
janina: can do if folks like
16:19:55 [glenn]
paulc: chairs are preparing a survey on three options
16:20:00 [glenn]
yang: a new survey?
16:20:10 [glenn]
paulc: [explains process]
16:20:31 [glenn]
yang: another question
16:20:45 [glenn]
... for ??? detection ???
16:20:50 [KevinStreeter]
KevinStreeter has joined #html-wg
16:21:26 [glenn]
[scribe: did not follow question]
16:21:43 [glenn]
paulc: question is about hit testing and whether it is related to accessibility
16:21:49 [paulc]
http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-201
16:21:58 [glenn]
... see ISSUE-201
16:22:14 [glenn]
paulc: [explains process about task forces]
16:22:41 [glenn]
... answer is yes, it is an accessibility related issue
16:22:52 [glenn]
... as are many other issues on status page posted above
16:22:57 [glenn]
ack yang
16:23:06 [glenn]
Topic: Other Business
16:23:14 [glenn]
ISSUE-189?
16:23:14 [trackbot]
ISSUE-189 -- Prefix convention needs to be coordinated with IETF -- open
16:23:14 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/189
16:23:42 [glenn]
mjs: CP was revised as requested by chairs, now have gone to survey
16:23:44 [Zakim]
- +1.818.370.aaaa
16:23:52 [glenn]
... some questions about IETF coordination, but will proceed
16:23:55 [glenn]
ISSUE-201?
16:23:55 [trackbot]
ISSUE-201 -- Provide canvas location and hit testing capability to fallback content -- open
16:23:55 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/201
16:24:19 [glenn]
mjs: two proposals now with slightly different variants
16:24:29 [glenn]
... from hober and SF
16:24:32 [glenn]
... q/c?
16:24:59 [glenn]
ISSUE-204?
16:24:59 [trackbot]
ISSUE-204 -- Exempt ARIA attributes from the rule that prohibits reference to hidden elements -- open
16:24:59 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/204
16:25:34 [glenn]
mjs: seems to have material differences in CPs
16:26:12 [glenn]
hober: JF and I went back and forth on this
16:26:25 [glenn]
... have gotten closer, hope to find compromise wording
16:26:35 [glenn]
... a little more work to get agreement with JF
16:26:37 [yang]
q+
16:26:58 [glenn]
janina: would be happiest if we can reach consensus on language
16:27:16 [glenn]
... not sure how to move in that direction, would be good if hober can move this
16:27:39 [glenn]
... great concern is there are large # of disabled users not using screen readers
16:27:50 [glenn]
... problems with tab approach
16:28:00 [glenn]
... probably not meeting all use cases
16:28:17 [laura]
"Every good-faith effort has been made here, and if at this time you and Jonas are still unprepared to endorse the V4 CP, then I will ask the Accessibility Task Force for their endorsement of the V4 CP and ask that the Chairs proceed with a WBS survey on Issue 204." - John Foliot, June 29.
16:28:17 [laura]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Jun/0176.html
16:28:24 [glenn]
mjs: yang on queue
16:28:47 [mjs]
ack yang
16:28:59 [glenn]
yang: why does ARIA need to see hidden element?
16:29:25 [glenn]
worried about breaking service logic
16:29:28 [yang]
why let ARIA see the hidden, it will ruin the JS dynamic service logic
16:29:39 [glenn]
s/worried/... worried/
16:30:19 [glenn]
hober: thinks what yang is asking is whether elements that are hidden, with visibility toggled from script
16:30:30 [glenn]
... shouldn't propose a problem for ARIA attributes
16:30:53 [glenn]
... should be OK
16:31:05 [glenn]
s/propose/pose/
16:31:23 [glenn]
yang: if disabled users use ARIA, then they can see hidden elements?
16:31:58 [glenn]
... does ARIA differentiate between hidden and not hidden?
16:32:44 [yang]
can user see the difference by aria for hidden and not-hidden?
16:32:47 [glenn]
mjs: suggests taking this discussion offline
16:32:58 [glenn]
... or discuss on ML
16:32:58 [paulc]
Yang could also attend the A11Y TF meeting
16:33:01 [glenn]
yang: ok
16:33:18 [glenn]
Using ARIA in HTML
16:33:18 [glenn]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Jun/0165.html
16:33:33 [yang]
any A11Y TF conference call information?
16:33:52 [glenn]
mjs: any q/c about this document (Using AREA in HTML)?
16:34:20 [glenn]
glenn: what is intended purpose of this doc? for info only?
16:34:29 [hober]
s/AREA/ARIA/
16:35:02 [glenn]
paulc: intent is to fill in gaps, more readable
16:35:07 [glenn]
... less jargon
16:35:21 [icaaq]
icaaq has joined #html-wg
16:35:46 [paulc]
From 0165.html: "My intention is to provide a non normative resource that fills in the gaps in the current HTML5 specification and a document that is more readable (i.e. less jargonist)"
16:35:51 [glenn]
glenn: thanks, yes
16:36:22 [glenn]
paulc: points out that it does deviate from HTML5
16:36:54 [glenn]
glenn: do we need further action by WG?
16:38:10 [trackbot]
trackbot has joined #html-wg
16:38:29 [glenn]
paulc: at present, author is requesting feedback
16:38:39 [glenn]
... no specific actions for WG at this time
16:38:42 [icaaq]
icaaq has joined #html-wg
16:39:35 [glenn]
paulc: there is a bugzilla component for this...
16:39:46 [paulc]
Bugzilla component and link: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/enter_bug.cgi?product=HTML%20WG&component=Using%20ARIA%20in%20HTML
16:40:34 [glenn]
glenn: asks janina if A11Y TF has any position on this document
16:40:43 [glenn]
janina: not at this time, has not discussed
16:41:00 [glenn]
... there is a group in TF working on mapping
16:41:09 [glenn]
... so unclear
16:41:15 [glenn]
... TF needs to discuss
16:41:36 [glenn]
Topic: AOB?
16:41:50 [paulc]
q+
16:42:16 [glenn]
paulc: wants to report that group of members dealing with work on media proposal
16:42:21 [glenn]
... continue to meet on weekly basis
16:42:35 [glenn]
... significant advances on both EME and MSE proposals
16:42:36 [paulc]
EME minutes: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2012Jul/0034.html
16:42:48 [glenn]
... substantial changes to both interfaces to be more O-O
16:43:18 [glenn]
... any one interested in that work should contact paulc
16:43:27 [glenn]
... also see public-html-media archive
16:44:01 [glenn]
Topic: Scribe for Next Meeting
16:44:04 [glenn]
ack paulc
16:44:13 [glenn]
mjs: any volunteers
16:44:22 [paulc]
Paul will be chairing
16:44:32 [glenn]
Ted volunteers. Paul C will chair.
16:44:39 [Zakim]
-mjs
16:44:40 [Zakim]
- +1.415.832.aabb
16:44:42 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft]
16:44:42 [Zakim]
-krisk
16:44:44 [Zakim]
-MIke
16:44:44 [Zakim]
-Janina
16:44:44 [janina]
janina has left #html-wg
16:44:46 [Zakim]
-hober
16:44:46 [glenn]
Topic: Adjournment
16:44:50 [glenn]
mjs: adjourned
16:44:51 [Zakim]
-yang
16:44:55 [glenn]
... see you next wek
16:44:56 [Zakim]
-Sam
16:44:58 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft.aa]
16:45:01 [Zakim]
-Laura_Carlson
16:45:07 [paulc]
zakim, list attendees
16:45:07 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been glenn, yang, Sam, Janina, eliot, [Microsoft], paulc, Radhika_Roy, ddorwin, Laura_Carlson, mjs, krisk, hober, adrianba, frankolivier,
16:45:11 [Zakim]
... +1.818.370.aaaa, MIke, +1.415.832.aabb
16:45:18 [glenn]
s/wek/week/
16:45:46 [glenn]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:45:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/12-html-wg-minutes.html glenn
16:45:47 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft.a]
16:46:12 [glenn]
zakim, who's on phone?
16:46:12 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, glenn.
16:46:19 [glenn]
zakim, who's on the phone?
16:46:19 [Zakim]
On the phone I see glenn, Radhika_Roy, ddorwin
16:46:37 [Zakim]
-glenn
16:48:24 [laura]
laura has joined #html-wg
16:49:49 [glenn]
trackbot, end meeting
16:49:49 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
16:49:49 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been glenn, yang, Sam, Janina, eliot, [Microsoft], paulc, Radhika_Roy, ddorwin, Laura_Carlson, mjs, krisk, hober, adrianba, frankolivier,
16:49:52 [Zakim]
... +1.818.370.aaaa, MIke, +1.415.832.aabb
16:49:57 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:49:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/12-html-wg-minutes.html trackbot
16:49:58 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
16:49:58 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items