15:41:26 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dnt
15:41:26 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/07/11-dnt-irc
15:41:36 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #dnt
15:41:47 <aleecia> Zakim, this will be dnt
15:41:47 <Zakim> ok, aleecia; I see T&S_Track(dnt)12:00PM scheduled to start in 19 minutes
15:41:53 <aleecia> chair: aleecia
15:42:20 <aleecia> regrets+ EdFelten, JCCannon
15:42:31 <aleecia> rrsagent, make logs public
15:43:02 <aleecia> agenda?
15:43:06 <aleecia> agenda+ Selection of scribe
15:43:12 <tl> tl has joined #dnt
15:43:52 <aleecia> agenda+ Review of overdue action items: https://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/actions/overdue?sort=owner
15:44:10 <aleecia> agenda+ Quick check that callers are identified
15:44:54 <aleecia> agenda+ Walk through of editors' strawman draft: http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/drafts/EditorsStrawmanComp.html
15:45:10 <aleecia> agenda+ Announce next meeting & adjourn
15:46:23 <tl> Has the shared calendar stopped including our conference calls?
15:49:32 <npdoty> npdoty has joined #dnt
15:50:33 <tl> Aha, just the person. npdoty, has the WG shared calendar stopped including our conf calls?
15:51:00 <npdoty> tl, yes, calendar bug, my mistake
15:51:38 <aleecia> Thanks - I'd wondered about that and hadn't pinged yet
15:52:29 <Zakim> T&S_Track(dnt)12:00PM has now started
15:52:36 <Zakim> +aleecia
15:52:40 <tl> Resulted in a colleague trying to meet with me in 40 minutes, sadly.
15:53:00 <Zakim> + +1.609.981.aaaa
15:53:15 <tl> zakim, aaaa is me
15:53:15 <Zakim> +tl; got it
15:53:19 <tl> As it has always been.
15:53:28 <aleecia> And you wonder that I am not a fan of "I'll just put everything into a public calendar and expect it all to automagically work" :-)
15:54:07 <tl> What you need is a web-enabled *cloud* calendar.
15:54:11 <Zakim> +npdoty
15:54:20 <tl> With Twitter integration.
15:54:34 <tl> ...and apps!
15:54:36 <npdoty> Calendar should be fixed now (or shortly, as it syncs via the tubes).
15:54:44 <aleecia> I had one of those. In 1989. Only, we didn't have Twitter yet.
15:54:44 <eberkower> eberkower has joined #dnt
15:54:51 <tl> Delightful, thanks Nick.
15:55:46 <aleecia> It seems my whole Interweb experience is a quest for recreation of what worked in the early 90s at a research university
15:56:04 <aleecia> re-creation, that is
15:56:25 <tl> Clouds not required?
15:56:41 <aleecia> yikes, Nick. 
15:56:49 <tl> RFC2821 compliance for email considered a "good day"?
15:57:13 <aleecia> We didn't call it that… but it was the moral equiv of cloud computing, in its own way
15:57:32 <Zakim> + +1.202.587.aabb
15:57:41 <aleecia> good morning from 202
15:57:50 <Zakim> + +1.202.494.aacc
15:58:06 <aleecia> and another good morning from 202
15:58:07 <Lia> Lia has joined #dnt
15:58:08 <npdoty> Zakim, aacc is jchester
15:58:08 <Zakim> +jchester; got it
15:58:20 <aleecia> thanks, Nick!
15:58:23 <tl> Except that you actually knew the bearded guy who was unquestioned master of your data.
15:58:52 <Simon> Simon has joined #dnt
15:58:54 <Zakim> - +1.202.587.aabb
15:59:11 <aleecia> Wayne the wonder operator -- get me to tell you how someone got root out of him some time.
15:59:12 <jeffwilson> jeffwilson has joined #dnt
15:59:20 <aleecia> Some time when I can talk.
15:59:24 <Zakim> + +1.703.265.aadd
15:59:26 <Zakim> -jchester
15:59:42 <aleecia> good morning, in 703
15:59:59 <aleecia> uh, did we just lose both 202 callers?
16:00:00 <jmayer> jmayer has joined #dnt
16:00:07 <npdoty> Zakim, aadd is jeffwilson 
16:00:07 <Zakim> +jeffwilson; got it
16:00:12 <Zakim> + +1.202.684.aaee
16:00:12 <Zakim> + +1.202.587.aaff
16:00:17 <aleecia> zakim, who is on the call?
16:00:17 <Zakim> On the phone I see aleecia, tl, npdoty, jeffwilson, +1.202.684.aaee, +1.202.587.aaff
16:00:18 <dsriedel> dsriedel has joined #dnt
16:00:31 <Lia> aaff is Lia
16:00:35 <Zakim> +??P42
16:00:48 <Chris_IAB> Chris_IAB has joined #dnt
16:00:49 <jmayer> Zakim, aaee is jmayer
16:00:50 <Zakim> +jmayer; got it
16:01:46 <Zakim> + +1.813.366.aagg
16:01:46 <Zakim> + +1.425.269.aahh
16:01:46 <Zakim> + +1.919.388.aaii
16:01:46 <KevinT> KevinT has joined #dnt
16:01:46 <erikn> erikn has joined #dnt
16:01:46 <Lia> Zakim, aaff is Lia
16:02:01 <npdoty> Zakim, ??P42 is probably Simon_CableLabs
16:02:01 <npdoty> Zakim, aaff is Lia
16:02:01 <Zakim> + +49.721.913.74.aajj
16:02:01 <Zakim> +??P50
16:02:01 <Zakim> +jchester
16:02:01 <Zakim> + +1.415.520.aakk
16:02:01 <Zakim> + +1.202.326.aall
16:02:04 <johnsimpson> johnsimpson has joined #dnt
16:02:05 <Zakim> +Lia; got it
16:02:07 <aleecia> Nick, if you can take the incoming calls, that would help.
16:02:13 <dsriedel> zakim, aajj is dsriedel
16:02:20 <KevinT> zakim, aakk is KevinT
16:02:24 <AnnaLong> AnnaLong has joined #dnt
16:02:28 <Joanne> Joanne has joined #DNT
16:02:32 <Zakim> + +1.415.520.aamm
16:02:33 <Zakim> + +1.703.265.aann
16:02:35 <Zakim> - +1.425.269.aahh
16:02:36 <fielding> fielding has joined #dnt
16:02:38 <suegl> suegl has joined #dnt
16:02:38 <johnsimpson> I am on IRC only
16:02:41 <Zakim> +Simon_CableLabs?; got it
16:02:42 <Zakim> sorry, npdoty, I do not recognize a party named 'aaff'
16:02:48 <alex> alex has joined #dnt
16:02:49 <Joanne> Zakim, Joanne is aamm
16:02:49 <aleecia> thanks, John, so noted
16:02:52 <npdoty> Zakim, aall is Peder
16:02:52 <hwest> hwest has joined #dnt
16:02:53 <pmagee> pmagee has joined #dnt
16:02:54 <Zakim> +dsriedel; got it
16:03:05 <npdoty> Present+ Chris_AOL
16:03:05 <Zakim> +KevinT; got it
16:03:05 <Zakim> +[Apple]
16:03:05 <dsriedel> zakim, mute me
16:03:05 <dsinger> zakim, [apple] has dsinger
16:03:07 <Chris_IAB> joining from a live conference so I won't be able to speak on today's call - I'm sure some won't mind that! ;)
16:03:16 <cblouch> cblouch has joined #dnt
16:03:18 <kj> kj has joined #dnt
16:03:22 <Zakim> sorry, Joanne, I do not recognize a party named 'Joanne'
16:03:23 <aleecia> hi Chris, thanks for joining on IRC
16:03:28 <Zakim> +Peder; got it
16:03:38 <dsinger> zakim, who is making noise?
16:03:39 <Chris_IAB> I'm on the phone as well, in listen-only mode
16:03:43 <Joanne> Zakim, aamm is Joanne
16:03:51 <Zakim> dsriedel should now be muted
16:03:53 <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
16:03:55 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:03:57 <amyc> amyc has joined #dnt
16:03:57 <samsilberman> samsilberman has joined #dnt
16:03:57 <vincent> vincent has joined #dnt
16:04:07 <aleecia> listening with one ear to each? :-) 
16:04:14 <aleecia> zakim, who is on the call?
16:04:19 <Zakim> + +1.714.852.aaoo
16:04:23 <Zakim> + +1.202.346.aapp
16:04:37 <dwainberg> dwainberg has joined #dnt
16:04:43 <fielding> zakim, aaoo is fielding
16:04:45 <Zakim> +Joanne; got it
16:04:46 <Zakim> + +1.425.269.aaqq
16:04:50 <Zakim> dsinger, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Simon_CableLabs? (21%), +1.202.346.aapp (10%)
16:05:00 <Zakim> On the phone I see aleecia, tl, npdoty, jeffwilson, jmayer, Lia, Simon_CableLabs?, +1.813.366.aagg, +1.919.388.aaii, dsriedel (muted), ??P50, KevinT, jchester, Peder, Joanne,
16:05:05 <npdoty> Zakim, mute Simon_CableLabs
16:05:05 <Zakim> ... +1.703.265.aann, [Apple], [Microsoft], +1.714.852.aaoo, +1.202.346.aapp, +1.425.269.aaqq
16:05:06 <suegl> zakim, aaqq is suegl
16:05:08 <Zakim> [Apple] has dsinger
16:05:09 <Zakim> + +1.781.472.aarr
16:05:11 <npdoty> Zakim, mute aapp
16:05:12 <Simon> I already muted
16:05:12 <hefferjr> hefferjr has joined #dnt
16:05:16 <Zakim> +justin
16:05:17 <Zakim> +??P70
16:05:20 <Zakim> + +1.813.366.aass
16:05:27 <Zakim> +fielding; got it
16:05:32 <Chris_IAB> I'm calling in from a blocked number (privacy ;)
16:05:36 <hefferjr> Zakim, aass is hefferjr
16:05:41 <Zakim> +hefferjr
16:05:43 <Zakim> + +1.207.619.aatt
16:05:46 <hwest> Zakim, aapp is hwest
16:05:47 <Zakim> Simon_CableLabs? should now be muted
16:05:50 <Zakim> +suegl; got it
16:05:53 <Zakim> +1.202.346.aapp should now be muted
16:05:56 <dwainberg> zakim, aatt is dwainberg
16:06:08 <npdoty> Present+ Chris_IAB 
16:06:11 <Zakim> +hefferjr; got it
16:06:19 <npdoty> Zakim, who is making noise?
16:06:20 <Zakim> +hwest; got it
16:06:21 <alex> Zakim, aagg is alex
16:06:27 <vincent> Zakim, ??P70 is vincent
16:06:27 <Zakim> +dwainberg; got it
16:06:36 <Zakim> +alex; got it
16:06:47 <Zakim> +vincent; got it
16:06:51 <Zakim> npdoty, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: aleecia (57%), justin (19%)
16:07:02 <aleecia> agenda?
16:07:06 <npdoty> scribenick: vincent 
16:07:17 <Lia> Zakim, mute me
16:07:24 <Zakim> + +1.646.666.aauu
16:07:31 <Chapell> Chapell has joined #DNT
16:07:39 <npdoty> Zakim, who is making noise?
16:07:39 <Zakim> Lia should now be muted
16:07:44 <Zakim> + +1.425.985.aavv
16:07:50 <Zakim> -hefferjr.a
16:07:58 <amyc> audio is awful?
16:08:03 <Zakim> npdoty, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: aleecia (33%)
16:08:04 <vincent> I can not hear at all
16:08:05 <Chapell> i hear it
16:08:08 <vincent> somene is running?
16:08:08 <dwainberg> I'm glad it's not just me.
16:08:11 <justin_> justin_ has joined #dnt
16:08:11 <Simon> Pounding is coming through loud and clear
16:08:15 <Zakim> + +1.646.654.aaww
16:08:17 <npdoty> Zakim, who is making noise?
16:08:21 <Zakim> -jchester
16:08:27 <Zakim> npdoty, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: aleecia (30%)
16:08:28 <cblouch> Sounds like clog dancing
16:08:34 <Zakim> - +1.646.654.aaww
16:08:34 <Simon> arythmic
16:08:37 <npdoty> Zakim, mute aleecia 
16:08:37 <dsriedel> massage
16:08:37 <Zakim> aleecia should now be muted
16:08:43 <Zakim> + +1.201.723.aaxx
16:08:50 <npdoty> Zakim, ack aleecia 
16:08:50 <Zakim> unmuting aleecia
16:08:51 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
16:09:03 <fielding> justin can start now
16:09:07 <Zakim> + +1.646.654.aayy
16:09:20 <npdoty> Zakim, aaxx is SusanIsrael
16:09:20 <Zakim> +SusanIsrael; got it
16:09:23 <BrendanIAB> BrendanIAB has joined #dnt
16:09:36 <Zakim> -SusanIsrael
16:09:38 <Craig> Craig has joined #dnt
16:09:48 <vincent> action-218?
16:09:48 <trackbot> ACTION-218 -- Nick Doty to write up proposal on issue-112 that we do exceptions based on origin -- due 2012-06-29 -- OPEN
16:09:48 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/actions/218
16:09:52 <adrianba> adrianba has joined #dnt
16:10:02 <Zakim> +SusanIsrael
16:10:05 <vincent> npdoty: overlooked, should be available this week
16:10:15 <fielding> all of mine are +1 week
16:10:18 <samsilberman> zakim, aarr  is samsilberman
16:10:18 <Zakim> +samsilberman; got it
16:10:21 <laurengelman> laurengelman has joined #dnt
16:10:30 <Chapell> zakim, aauu is chapell
16:10:30 <Zakim> +chapell; got it
16:10:34 <laurengelman> i am in the room with Justin
16:10:36 <npdoty> I'll try for faster than +1 week, since I only have one
16:10:40 <vincent> aleecia: three open actions on fielding 
16:10:43 <hwest> Zakim, unmute me
16:10:43 <Zakim> hwest should no longer be muted
16:10:44 <npdoty> Present+ laurengelman 
16:10:45 <vincent> action-209?
16:10:45 <trackbot> ACTION-209 -- Jonathan Mayer to draft a definition of DNT:0 expression -- issue-148 -- due 2012-06-14 -- CLOSED
16:10:45 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/actions/209
16:10:48 <cblouch> zakim, cblouch is Chris Blouch
16:10:48 <Zakim> I don't understand 'cblouch is Chris Blouch', cblouch
16:10:52 <vincent> action-224?
16:10:52 <trackbot> ACTION-224 -- Roy Fielding to ensure that Section 4 reflects the latest DomAPI proposal by Nick -- due 2012-07-01 -- OPEN
16:10:52 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/actions/224
16:10:57 <vincent> action-217?
16:10:57 <trackbot> ACTION-217 -- Roy Fielding to change text around DNT "on"/"off"/ -- due 2012-06-29 -- OPEN
16:10:57 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/actions/217
16:11:23 <Craigspi> Craigspi has joined #dnt
16:11:24 <vincent> fielding: not any progress on these issue, well be done next week
16:11:27 <Zakim> +??P5
16:11:36 <vincent> ... not sure 224 for is it for dsinger ?
16:11:40 <BrendanIAB> +??P5 is BrendanIAB
16:11:45 <Chris_IAB> Chris_IAB has joined #dnt
16:12:07 <Zakim> + +1.408.349.aazz
16:12:08 <vincent> npdoty: I'll follow up on this issue as it is realted to the JS API
16:12:10 <CraigspiOTA> CraigspiOTA has joined #dnt
16:12:14 <WileyS> WileyS has joined #DNT
16:12:21 <vincent> action-221?
16:12:21 <trackbot> ACTION-221 -- Jonathan Mayer to draft optional version of explicit/explicit exception api -- due 2012-06-29 -- OPEN
16:12:21 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/actions/221
16:12:43 <vincent> jmayer: this end-up being redundant something is in the TPE already
16:12:45 <WileyS> AKA - We've not worked on this action :-)
16:12:54 <vincent> dsinger: agree this is in the TPE already
16:13:04 <erikn> erikn has joined #dnt
16:13:05 <npdoty> jmayer, was this action for explicitly making it an optional method?
16:13:07 <vincent> aleecia: closing 221 as redundant
16:13:17 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
16:13:24 <adrianba> zakim, [Microsoft.a] is me
16:13:24 <Zakim> +adrianba; got it
16:13:53 <vincent> aleecia: dsinger is doing an independant cnsistency check on TPE
16:14:03 <vincent> action-170?
16:14:03 <trackbot> ACTION-170 -- Heather West to provide an alternative approach to well-known URI for resources that are used in both first-party and third-party contexts without changing the resource URI -- due 2012-06-13 -- OPEN
16:14:03 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/actions/170
16:14:10 <jmayer> npdoty, think this was focused on the API design
16:14:10 <eberkower> eberkower has joined #dnt
16:14:20 <tl> +1 - has been bypased
16:14:21 <vincent> hwest: we moved passed that in the discussion we can remove that action
16:14:36 <vincent> aleecia:  close action 170
16:14:44 <aleecia> zakim, who is on the call?
16:14:44 <Zakim> On the phone I see aleecia, tl, npdoty, jeffwilson, jmayer, Lia (muted), Simon_CableLabs? (muted), alex, +1.919.388.aaii, dsriedel (muted), ??P50, KevinT, Peder, Joanne,
16:14:48 <Zakim> ... +1.703.265.aann, [Apple], [Microsoft], fielding, hwest, suegl, samsilberman, justin, vincent, hefferjr, dwainberg, chapell, +1.425.985.aavv, +1.646.654.aayy, SusanIsrael, ??P5,
16:14:48 <Zakim> ... +1.408.349.aazz, adrianba
16:14:48 <Zakim> [Apple] has dsinger
16:14:54 <hwest> hwest has left #dnt
16:15:02 <hwest> hwest has joined #dnt
16:15:07 <Zakim> - +1.919.388.aaii
16:15:08 <vincent> now looking for unidentifeid people
16:15:13 <aleecia> sorry - talking is still killing me
16:15:14 <WileyS> Zakim, aazz is WileyS
16:15:14 <Zakim> +WileyS; got it
16:15:19 <eberkower> 646 = eberkower
16:15:34 <eberkower> 646 is eberkower
16:15:37 <aleecia> zakim, aayy is eberkower
16:15:37 <Zakim> +eberkower; got it
16:15:39 <Chris_IAB> blocked number
16:15:47 <AnnaLong> 919 is AnnaLong.  i lost my connection and i'm dialing back in
16:15:58 <aleecia> zakim, aaii is annalong
16:15:58 <Zakim> sorry, aleecia, I do not recognize a party named 'aaii'
16:15:59 <dsinger> zakim, aayy is eberkower
16:16:00 <Zakim> sorry, dsinger, I do not recognize a party named 'aayy'
16:16:06 <npdoty> Zakim, ??P50 is probably Chris_IAB 
16:16:06 <Zakim> +Chris_IAB?; got it
16:16:14 <npdoty> Zakim, ??P5 is probably BrendanIAB 
16:16:14 <Zakim> +BrendanIAB?; got it
16:16:21 <npdoty> Zakim, aayy is eberkower 
16:16:29 <Zakim> sorry, npdoty, I do not recognize a party named 'aayy'
16:16:34 <Zakim> + +1.919.388.bbaa
16:16:35 <justin_> Here is the draft: http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/drafts/EditorsStrawmanComp.html
16:16:51 <vincent> aleecia: justin will walk through the strawman draft,
16:16:52 <npdoty> Zakim, bbaa is AnnaLong
16:16:52 <Zakim> +AnnaLong; got it
16:17:15 <vincent> ... looking for structural problems
16:17:28 <vincent> ... just going the part that have changed
16:17:36 <aleecia> zakim, mute aleecia
16:17:36 <Zakim> aleecia should now be muted
16:17:46 <adrianba> zakim, mute me
16:17:46 <Zakim> adrianba should now be muted
16:18:31 <vincent> justin_:  not updated for a couple of months and now bringing the proposal together
16:18:50 <vincent> ... the doc was chage from HTML to other format so there are some fomrating issue
16:18:52 <aleecia> TODO: editors note note note
16:18:57 <vincent> ... putting it in the right shape
16:19:08 <vincent> introductiona nd scope have not changed at all
16:19:22 <vincent> ... will have to go back and rewrite scope and goals at some point
16:19:31 <vincent> ... user and user agent have not changed
16:19:32 <Zakim> +[Apple.a]
16:19:48 <robsherman> robsherman has joined #dnt
16:19:55 <Zakim> + +1.202.370.bbbb
16:20:06 <robsherman> zakim, bbbb is robsherman
16:20:06 <Zakim> +robsherman; got it
16:20:07 <vincent> ... parties: has changed due to the compromise, agreed in Bellevue that Shane draft will be the base
16:20:12 <erikn> zakim, [Apple.a] has erikn
16:20:12 <Zakim> +erikn; got it
16:20:29 <vincent> ... but Shane draft was not in that form, so started from jmayer draft
16:20:45 <aleecia> TODO: tagging non-normative sections as such
16:20:56 <fielding> I would really appreciate it if the editors considered comments other than the two diametrically opposite and equally unacceptable proposals.
16:20:57 <vincent> ... notion of affiliate, the link describing the affiliate have to be easily discoverable
16:21:31 <vincent> ... outsourcing should be considered as first parties, if a person is a third aprty under outsourcing provisin, they can act as a first party
16:22:03 <hwest> q+
16:22:03 <fielding> q+
16:22:05 <vincent> ... agreement on the language of service providers and service providers is good?
16:22:12 <johnsimpson> Roy, do you have specific text to which you are referring?
16:22:13 <vincent> ... or do we want other language propose
16:22:14 <npdoty> fielding, do you think that applies to the party size and outsourcing questions?
16:22:22 <aleecia> q?
16:22:24 <hwest> q+
16:22:32 <aleecia> ack fielding
16:22:34 <vincent> fielding: same comment as before: not acceptable
16:22:47 <aleecia> ack hwest
16:22:47 <vincent> justin_: any alternative or ther option?
16:22:54 <vincent> fielding: posting on irc
16:23:10 <vincent> hwest: problem with the language and the specificity
16:23:15 <dwainberg> +q
16:23:18 <jmayer> +q
16:23:22 <vincent> ... number of option has been proposed in bellevye that are simpler
16:23:40 <dsinger> q+
16:23:41 <aleecia> ack dwainberg
16:23:51 <vincent> ... most people have the same context in their head but the language is not there
16:23:56 <aleecia> ack jmayer
16:24:07 <hwest> I think most folks are in the same place in terms of what the language SHOULD say, but I don't think the language in the straw man now reflects that
16:24:07 <aleecia> sorry - jmayer next
16:24:15 <aleecia> agreed, David
16:24:24 <aleecia> this will not be the only opportunity to comment
16:24:26 <jmayer> -q
16:24:36 <vincent> dwainberg: hope we're not getting in a substantive discussion, we should keep that open
16:24:42 <aleecia> knowing where there are issues is very helpful, though
16:24:59 <Zakim> - +1.425.985.aavv
16:25:01 <aleecia> ack dsinger
16:25:04 <dwainberg> agreed, Aleecia. thx.
16:25:05 <npdoty> what I'm hearing: same context in our head, but not set on the language
16:25:12 <vincent> jmayer: what's overly specific and what's out of sope but that'd be too long
16:25:29 <jmayer> s/what's/would ask what's/
16:25:34 <aleecia> david getting text on that would help
16:25:35 <vincent> dsinger: party definition: we need to say someting about the responsability following the data
16:25:56 <aleecia> zakim, mute me
16:25:56 <Zakim> aleecia was already muted, aleecia
16:25:59 <vincent> thx jmayer
16:26:08 <jmayer> Yep, this is a concern David has frequently expressed that isn't in the draft as an option.
16:26:14 <aleecia> zakim, unmute me
16:26:14 <Zakim> aleecia should no longer be muted
16:26:20 <vincent> justin_: 3.4 distinction between first and third parties
16:26:28 <vincent> ... what is the first party
16:26:42 <hwest> I have a problem with the first and third party definitions in there right now
16:26:54 <vincent> ... Shane proposal say that the first party is the site you're going too
16:27:08 <vincent> ... we consider several example like multiple first party
16:27:12 <hwest> q+
16:27:22 <dsinger> an issue we need to grapple with is when 'promotion' happens (from 3rd to 1st party) and whether the two ends agree and notice
16:27:35 <vincent> ... I think there was general agreement that link shortener are not first party
16:27:40 <aleecia> TODO: grep for &emdash; and fix
16:27:45 <vincent> ... concer about this lamguage?
16:27:48 <aleecia> ack hwest
16:28:09 <vincent> hwest: it des not make sens to say that first party have to infer 
16:28:11 <fielding> my comments on service providers: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tracking/2012Mar/0001.html
16:28:24 <vincent> justin_: if there is an alternative 
16:28:41 <aleecia> TODO: editors to review Roy's service provider text above
16:28:41 <tl> I think that the infer language has been consensus for a while?
16:28:47 <justin_> q?
16:28:49 <vincent> hwest: we could use corporate ownership
16:28:51 <amyc> agree that definition should be objective
16:29:12 <vincent> justin_: hwest taking an action item on a definition of first/third party
16:29:13 <aleecia> Heather I'm not seeing how ownership solves this, but look forward to seeing what you write
16:29:25 <npdoty> action: heather to propose an alternative definition of first party (based on ownership? alternative to inference?)
16:29:25 <trackbot> Created ACTION-225 - Propose an alternative definition of first party (based on ownership? alternative to inference?) [on Heather West - due 2012-07-18].
16:29:46 <vincent> justin_: unlinkable data, I've freezed the two option
16:29:53 <hwest> aleecia, it may be that I'm framing the two definitions differently in my head than others are - but they feel to me like they're not even internally consistent
16:30:05 <vincent> ... one dervied from Shane text, let me know if I'm wrong there
16:30:19 <vincent> ... second option taken from jmayer draft
16:30:25 <justin_> q?
16:30:27 <aleecia> Perhaps we could add that to the FAQ, actually
16:30:34 <vincent> ... we did not come on an agreement on that yet
16:30:53 <fielding> my detailed comments on outsourcing sections: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tracking/2012Jun/0462.html
16:30:57 <vincent> justin_: netwrok transcation, transcational data are quite stable definition, no complaint
16:31:13 <vincent> justin_: what it data collection/view/sahrng and what is tracking
16:31:36 <vincent> ... the use of unique identifier (point of contention) would go there
16:31:36 <aleecia> TODO: definitions of collection, retention, use, sharing, tracking
16:31:55 <npdoty> TODO: use the several definitions of tracking that Roy has extracted
16:32:00 <vincent> justin_: section 3.10 explicit and informed consent
16:32:29 <vincent> .. when you need the consent to have DNT on in the first place  and when you have consent for user granted exception
16:32:55 <justin_> q?
16:32:55 <npdoty> is there general agreement that this applies both to setting a preference and overriding a preference?
16:32:57 <vincent> ... two options, one from jmayer draft, defined initilaly for UGE but can be used to dnt on as well
16:33:09 <vincent> I missed the second option
16:33:11 <WileyS> Yes - I agree - we can dig that up if needed
16:33:11 <aleecia> if we're doing "choice mechanism" but using it in both places, that may get confused
16:33:23 <aleecia> second option was silence, leave to local law
16:33:33 <vincent> thx aleecia 
16:33:58 <aleecia> TODO: David Singer & Shane to work with Justin on alternative text on consent
16:34:01 <justin_> q?
16:34:17 <dsinger> zakim, who is making noise?
16:34:20 <WileyS> +q
16:34:30 <vincent> justin_: compliance broke in three parties
16:34:31 <Zakim> dsinger, listening for 11 seconds I could not identify any sounds
16:34:42 <WileyS> -Q
16:34:52 <vincent> ... first aprty compliance, I don't think this language work but none propose
16:34:59 <Zakim> -SusanIsrael
16:35:04 <vincent> ... anyone else taking an action item on it
16:35:05 <aleecia> TODO: reworking section 4 first party language
16:35:13 <justin_> q?
16:35:23 <vincent> justin_:  sec 5 user agent compliance
16:35:37 <vincent> ... second paragraph taken from tpe draft
16:35:51 <justin_> q?
16:35:54 <vincent> ... WileyS had a couple of extra requirement on user agent, reported there
16:36:09 <vincent> ... section 6: third party compliance
16:36:28 <vincent> ... 6.1 not sure there is a consensus
16:36:59 <aleecia> we'd walked through geo-targeting and closed things, then Ian had new suggestions on the mailing list
16:37:00 <justin_> q?
16:37:04 <WileyS> +q
16:37:05 <vincent> ... consensus on the geolocation ?
16:37:05 <hwest> I know Ian will want to take another look
16:37:31 <vincent> dwainberg: I'd like to go back and discuss that letter
16:37:38 <aleecia> ack WileyS
16:37:43 <justin_> ack WileyS
16:38:26 <justin_> q?
16:38:29 <tl> Isn't this reopening a closed issue?
16:38:31 <vincent> WileyS: flag the behavior example and not mix element about other user agent details 
16:38:45 <vincent> justin_: not problem revising that
16:39:10 <aleecia> TODO: revisit invasive behavior example (though yes, this was closed, Shane's point is also reasonable)
16:39:32 <justin_> q?
16:39:39 <vincent> ... section 6.2.1.1 general agreement depend on the defintion of hat collection is
16:39:40 <aleecia> Tom might work with Justin to find an example we're all clearer about
16:40:10 <WileyS> +q
16:40:17 <vincent> justin_:  "content delivrery that could be conextual" we might want to revisit that
16:40:50 <Zakim> + +1.202.524.bbcc
16:40:51 <justin_> ack WileyS
16:40:52 <aleecia> ack WileyS
16:41:17 <justin_> q?
16:41:32 <vincent> WileyS: content delivrery based on context, we thought it was out of the scope, not confortable to have it in the permitted uses section
16:41:33 <aleecia> TODO: revisit if contextual belongs some place other than permitted use
16:41:54 <jmayer> (This is plainly within scope.)
16:41:59 <aleecia> this suggests collect is data about a user, perhaps
16:42:06 <npdoty> WileyS: could put this in the Collection section, for example [trying to capture the suggestion]
16:42:43 <vincent> justin_: frequency capping, financial logging and auditing based on WileyS proposal
16:43:03 <vincent> ... issue rasied in bellevue, could a contract llow you to log data forever
16:43:04 <WileyS> I thought we agreed that contracts would NOT trump the standard
16:43:08 <justin_> q?
16:43:09 <aleecia> q+
16:43:17 <tl> +1 shane
16:43:24 <npdoty> ack aleecia 
16:43:35 <vincent> aleecia: much of this could be solved by the third party acting as a first party
16:44:20 <vincent> ... to come back to WileyS  point, we agreed that there are exisitng contract that DNT should not trump but DNT should impact future contracts
16:44:42 <vincent> justin_: sounds liek there is an agreement on that
16:44:49 <aleecia> TODO: for financial logging/ auditing, look to 3rd parties as 3rd parties
16:44:59 <susanisrael> susanisrael has joined #dnt
16:45:04 <justin_> q?
16:45:08 <vincent> ... security and fraud prevention, we could had jmayer gratuated response
16:45:14 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
16:45:26 <vincent> ... debugging, language come from bellevue or WileyS draft
16:45:29 <aleecia> TODO: write down end point in Seattle of existing contracts remain in force, but new contracts to be written with DNT in mind
16:45:31 <susanisrael> susan israel rejoined the call, this time from  202 379 XXXX
16:45:50 <WileyS> Correct
16:45:52 <aleecia> zakim, who is on the call?
16:45:52 <Zakim> On the phone I see aleecia, tl, npdoty, jeffwilson, jmayer, Lia (muted), Simon_CableLabs? (muted), alex, dsriedel (muted), Chris_IAB?, KevinT, Peder, Joanne, +1.703.265.aann,
16:45:55 <Zakim> ... [Apple], fielding, hwest, suegl, samsilberman, justin, vincent, hefferjr, dwainberg, chapell, eberkower, BrendanIAB?, WileyS, adrianba (muted), AnnaLong, [Apple.a], robsherman,
16:45:55 <Zakim> ... +1.202.524.bbcc
16:45:55 <Zakim> [Apple] has dsinger
16:45:55 <Zakim> [Apple.a] has erikn
16:46:05 <fielding> q+
16:46:21 <susanisrael> susan israel is also on the call
16:46:48 <aleecia> ack fielding
16:47:12 <aleecia> confused?
16:47:14 <vincent> justin_: different opinion: you can use the data avaialble, fear that it would encourage long data retention for other purposes
16:47:36 <aleecia> ok so this is a new use case we haven't explored
16:48:11 <vincent> fielding: security and fraud prevention is inherently based on a sharing data process (have I capture that correctly?)
16:48:24 <aleecia> TODO: add examples on security without outsourced parties
16:48:31 <fielding> vincent, yes
16:48:40 <vincent> justin_: 6..2.2 addition requirement from WileyS  proposal
16:48:56 <cblouch> zakim, aann is cblouch
16:48:56 <Zakim> +cblouch; got it
16:49:12 <justin_> q?
16:49:19 <vincent> ... how long do you keep the data and eventually explaining reason, no personalisation of user experience except fro frequency capping
16:49:45 <vincent> justin_: 6.3 user granted exception, is also in the TPE doc
16:50:18 <vincent> ... 6.3.1 explain interaction with other controls, quite stable 
16:50:37 <WileyS> Depends on the consent conveyed by the user in entering the logged in state
16:50:45 <aleecia> We had pretty much deadlock around logged in / logged out, with people to write both sides, and one of those dropped.
16:50:47 <justin_> q?
16:50:49 <vincent> ... 6.3.2 consent from a login state, have we a consensus on that
16:50:52 <tl> +1 Shane
16:51:12 <npdoty> +1 to dropping this section and relying on the definitions around consent
16:51:29 <vincent> justin_:  6.4 is a new section
16:51:39 <aleecia> (If we have extra time on this call, which it looks we will, let's come back to 6.3)
16:51:47 <susanisrael> is it possible to repost the link to the document justin is walking through.  I apologize, I was not on IRC before. 
16:51:55 <npdoty> http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/drafts/EditorsStrawmanComp.html
16:51:58 <WileyS> Of course, I strongly disagree with option 1 - would you mind moving this to the last option?
16:52:00 <dsinger> q+
16:52:01 <justin_> q?
16:52:01 <vincent> ... non compliant user agent, first option : if the header is correctly form you have to respect it
16:52:06 <susanisrael> thanks
16:52:10 <aleecia> ack dsinger
16:52:28 <aleecia> That sounds like a good solution to me, speaking as me and not as co-chair
16:52:36 <vincent> ... second option, if we can beleive that the user did not set the preference, the party may not respect the request
16:52:37 <justin_> ?
16:52:40 <justin_> q?
16:52:45 <WileyS> +1 to what David said
16:52:52 <vincent> ... third option, you can do nothing wathsoever
16:52:53 <Zakim> -robsherman
16:52:55 <npdoty> I think we might be able to use the TPE response character for "we have consent"
16:53:06 <WileyS> +q
16:53:09 <aleecia> This is an open issue against TPE
16:53:16 <hwest> Apologies, I'll need to drop in a minute
16:53:26 <vincent> dsinger: we could be silent on that, and on the TPE describe the response "we're not respecting you're header and here is why"
16:53:36 <vincent> ... that would solve the problem
16:53:37 <aleecia> noted; Heather, let's touch base soon?
16:53:41 <aleecia> q?
16:53:47 <justin_> q?
16:53:48 <aleecia> ack WileyS
16:53:54 <johnsimpson> What was David's suggestion?
16:54:06 <aleecia> David's suggestion was we not have text here in compliance 
16:54:20 <Zakim> + +1.917.318.bbdd
16:54:21 <Joanne> Joanne has joined #DNT
16:54:33 <Zakim> -chapell
16:54:39 <justin_> q?
16:54:43 <Zach> Zach has joined #dnt
16:54:43 <vincent> WileyS: in agreement with david positin, as long as we can inform users that we're not respecting the signal
16:54:46 <jmayer> There's not agreement on this.  Move on.
16:54:52 <vincent> ... it is important to convey that to the user
16:55:10 <Chapell> zakim bbdd is chapell
16:55:27 <aleecia> perhaps some day we'll even have a DNT logo
16:55:36 <npdoty> Zakim, bbdd is Chris_IAB 
16:55:36 <Zakim> +Chris_IAB; got it
16:55:37 <aleecia> q+
16:55:39 <justin_> q?
16:55:43 <npdoty> Zakim, bbdd is actually Chapell 
16:55:43 <Zakim> I don't understand 'bbdd is actually Chapell', npdoty
16:55:47 <WileyS> I thought Issue 65 was closed with a "Yes" response?
16:55:52 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:55:55 <npdoty> Zakim, bbdd is really Chapell
16:55:55 <Zakim> sorry, npdoty, I do not recognize a party named 'bbdd'
16:55:56 <vincent> justin_: 6.6.1 third party auditing, there was not much there intially
16:56:24 <WileyS> Oops - I meant Issue 93 
16:56:24 <johnsimpson> Seems to me if you get a technically valid DNT:1, you've got to honor it.
16:56:38 <fielding> agreed
16:56:42 <WileyS> Disagree John
16:56:44 <npdoty> action-219?
16:56:44 <trackbot> ACTION-219 -- Roy Fielding to add optional audit field array -- due 2012-06-29 -- OPEN
16:56:44 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/actions/219
16:56:55 <vincent> aleecia: about section 6.6.1 we can move that to the TPE
16:57:10 <vincent> ... or we can add a cross reference to the TPE
16:57:20 <vincent> justin_:  ok
16:57:24 <jmayer> +q
16:57:27 <johnsimpson> I know Shane. That's why it's open issue.
16:57:30 <aleecia> ack aleecia
16:57:52 <vincent> justin_: few change should be available on friday, concern can be sent to the lsit
16:57:57 <npdoty> ack jmayer 
16:58:11 <johnsimpson> Q?
16:58:15 <vincent> jmayer: different approach on the proposal I worked on about the permitted uses
16:58:17 <Zakim> -Chris_IAB
16:58:19 <aleecia> TODO: change section 6.6.1 3rd party auditing to point to TPE on an array of URIs, likely move it as well
16:58:40 <WileyS> John - If our goal is to have companies implement DNT, forcing them to honor "ANY" DNT:1 signal regardless of compliance with the specification will not be helpful and will likely drive most companies to not implement this version of DNT
16:58:40 <Zakim> +Chris_IAB.a
16:58:43 <Zakim> -hwest
16:59:00 <npdoty> Zakim, Chris_IAB.a is really Chapell 
16:59:00 <Zakim> +Chapell; got it
16:59:10 <justin_> q?
16:59:32 <vincent> ... unlinkable data has broader exception, we could add something to limit the use of these data (is that correct jmayer? )
16:59:43 <jmayer> s/about permitted uses/about permitted uses, please add an option/
17:00:19 <Chris_IAB> any news about the next face-to-face?
17:00:35 <vincent> aleecia: come back to the login/logout state
17:01:18 <vincent> aleecia: about the f2f couple of options, doodle poll at the end of this week or next week
17:01:48 <npdoty> also feel free to follow up with me via email re: charter
17:01:48 <vincent> ... rechartering discussion are happening, contact thomas for furhter info
17:02:07 <dsinger> q+
17:02:16 <vincent> aleecia: npdoty could you explain your suggestion
17:02:45 <vincent> npdoty: we could remove the section about login/logout and just refer to the consent
17:02:53 <aleecia> ack dsinger
17:02:54 <justin_> How about just an example where someone gets consent through a login process?
17:02:55 <dsinger> I think this is covered by the needing explicit/separate/informed consent. I think logged-in/out implying consent to track is roughly in the same state as the argument over UA defaults.  Unless the service's primary purpose and explicit function is to track logged-in users (my example of TrackMyReading.com), it's not OK.
17:03:02 <vincent> dsinger: I think this is covered by the consent section
17:03:47 <Chris_IAB> how do you define what an explicit service for privacy David?
17:04:03 <vincent> aleecia: my concern is that people who read the doc may not know that login/logout case is covered by the consent section
17:04:26 <dsinger> to Chris_IAB - an explicit servce for *tracking*" is the example
17:04:45 <vincent> aleecia: agreement on that, it should be in the next draft
17:04:52 <Chris_IAB> dsinger, I'm not sure I understand, sorry.
17:05:21 <npdoty> TODO: aleecia suggests that we just make logged-in a section in consent with an example, and point to it elsewhere
17:05:36 <Zakim> -KevinT
17:05:37 <Zakim> -WileyS
17:05:38 <Zakim> -samsilberman
17:05:38 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
17:05:40 <Zakim> -aleecia
17:05:40 <Zakim> -dwainberg
17:05:41 <Zakim> -[Apple.a]
17:05:45 <Zakim> -Joanne
17:05:45 <Zakim> -adrianba
17:05:47 <Zakim> -hefferjr
17:05:49 <Zakim> -suegl
17:05:52 <Zakim> -jmayer
17:05:53 <Zakim> -justin
17:05:53 <aleecia> And sorry again for being quiet / sick
17:05:55 <Zakim> -cblouch
17:05:58 <Zakim> -fielding
17:05:59 <Zakim> -eberkower
17:06:01 <Zakim> -Simon_CableLabs?
17:06:03 <Zakim> -BrendanIAB?
17:06:06 <Zakim> -Chapell
17:06:09 <Zakim> -AnnaLong
17:06:11 <Zakim> -alex
17:06:14 <tl> aleecia Sorry that we're making you sick.
17:06:15 <Zakim> -jeffwilson
17:06:17 <Zakim> -dsriedel
17:06:19 <Zakim> -tl
17:06:21 <Zakim> -Lia
17:06:25 <Zakim> -vincent
17:06:27 <Chris_IAB> dsinger, my concern is that the definition of "an explicit service" can be left to gray area, and thus open for 'interesting' interpretation...
17:06:37 <Zakim> - +1.202.524.bbcc
17:07:08 <npdoty> Zakim, list attendees
17:07:08 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been aleecia, +1.609.981.aaaa, tl, npdoty, +1.202.587.aabb, +1.202.494.aacc, jchester, +1.703.265.aadd, jeffwilson, +1.202.684.aaee,
17:07:11 <Zakim> ... +1.202.587.aaff, jmayer, +1.813.366.aagg, +1.425.269.aahh, +1.919.388.aaii, +49.721.913.74.aajj, +1.415.520.aakk, +1.202.326.aall, Lia, +1.415.520.aamm, +1.703.265.aann,
17:07:11 <Zakim> ... Simon_CableLabs?, dsriedel, KevinT, Peder, dsinger, [Microsoft], +1.714.852.aaoo, +1.202.346.aapp, Joanne, +1.425.269.aaqq, +1.781.472.aarr, justin, +1.813.366.aass, fielding,
17:07:15 <dsinger> Chris_IAB: yes, quite.  But I don't know how to do better - I am open to conversation.  It's one of those tricky edge-cases.
17:07:16 <Zakim> ... hefferjr, +1.207.619.aatt, suegl, hwest, dwainberg, alex, vincent, +1.646.666.aauu, +1.425.985.aavv, +1.646.654.aaww, +1.201.723.aaxx, +1.646.654.aayy, SusanIsrael,
17:07:16 <Zakim> ... samsilberman, chapell, +1.408.349.aazz, adrianba, WileyS, eberkower, Chris_IAB?, BrendanIAB?, +1.919.388.bbaa, AnnaLong, [Apple], +1.202.370.bbbb, robsherman, erikn,
17:07:16 <Zakim> ... +1.202.524.bbcc, cblouch, +1.917.318.bbdd, Chris_IAB
17:07:31 <Zakim> -npdoty
17:07:38 <cblouch> cblouch has left #dnt
17:08:03 <johnsimpson> johnsimpson has left #dnt
17:08:04 <aleecia> Chris, we also need to work that out for UAs
17:08:50 <aleecia> We have people reading the text and coming to different views on anti-virus software
17:09:17 <aleecia> Whatever you think the answer *should* be there, I think we can all agree we ought at least be clear enough that people walk away thinking the same thing
17:09:48 <aleecia> Same idea for explicit service
17:10:18 <Chris_IAB> dsinger, fair enough.  Let's work on it together... I think it's unavoidable to make clear and hard-line definitions when it comes to compliancy.
17:11:19 <Zakim> -[Apple]
17:12:24 <adrianba> adrianba has left #dnt
17:15:12 <Zakim> -Chris_IAB?
17:23:56 <aleecia> rrsagent, make logs public
17:24:22 <aleecia> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:24:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/11-dnt-minutes.html aleecia
17:32:03 <npdoty> zakim, bye
17:32:03 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were aleecia, +1.609.981.aaaa, tl, npdoty, +1.202.587.aabb, +1.202.494.aacc, jchester, +1.703.265.aadd, jeffwilson, +1.202.684.aaee,
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