16:52:01 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ua
16:52:01 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/07/05-ua-irc
16:52:03 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:52:03 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #ua
16:52:05 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
16:52:05 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
16:52:06 <trackbot> Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:52:06 <trackbot> Date: 05 July 2012
16:52:15 <JAllan> rrsagent, make minutes
16:52:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/05-ua-minutes.html JAllan
16:54:00 <jeanne> jeanne has joined #ua
16:54:41 <JAllan> Agenda+ 2.11.7 definition of  "relative time units" (Action-699, Action-644)
16:54:43 <JAllan> Agenda+ 2.11.11 scale and position of caption track (Action-692) see proposal
16:54:44 <JAllan> Agenda+  Action-740 Changes to 2.8 Provide toolbar configuration (Jan,
16:54:46 <JAllan> Kim, Greg)
16:54:48 <JAllan> Agenda+ Jan Proposal 4.1.1
16:54:49 <JAllan> Agenda+ 3.2 Action-644 - SC on Undo.  Proposal from Jan
16:54:51 <JAllan> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0028.html
16:54:52 <JAllan> Agenda+ Review GL 5, approve Jeanne's rework/renumbering/re-etc.
16:54:55 <JAllan> regrets: kelly, jan
16:55:54 <mhakkinen> mhakkinen has joined #ua
16:58:21 <Zakim> WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
16:58:27 <Zakim> +Jim_Allan
16:58:31 <JAllan> zakim, agenda?
16:58:31 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
16:58:33 <Zakim> 1. 2.11.7 definition of  "relative time units" (Action-699, Action-644) [from JAllan]
16:58:33 <Zakim> 2. 2.11.11 scale and position of caption track (Action-692) see proposal [from JAllan]
16:58:33 <Zakim> 3. Action-740 Changes to 2.8 Provide toolbar configuration (Jan, [from JAllan]
16:58:33 <Zakim> 4. Jan Proposal 4.1.1 [from JAllan]
16:58:33 <Zakim> 5. 3.2 Action-644 - SC on Undo.  Proposal from Jan [from JAllan]
16:58:34 <Zakim> 6. Review GL 5, approve Jeanne's rework/renumbering/re-etc. [from JAllan]
17:00:05 <Zakim> +Mark
17:00:30 <Greg> Greg has joined #ua
17:00:45 <Zakim> +Jeanne
17:03:02 <Zakim> +Greg_Lowney
17:05:40 <JAllan> present: jim, mark, greg, Jamie (intern), jeanne
17:06:00 <JAllan> zakim, open item 1
17:06:00 <Zakim> agendum 1. "2.11.7 definition of  "relative time units" (Action-699, Action-644)" taken up [from JAllan]
17:07:33 <sharper> sharper has joined #ua
17:07:34 <sharper> sharper has left #ua
17:07:41 <JAllan> mark still working on it. 
17:07:48 <sharper> sharper has joined #ua
17:09:07 <JAllan> zakim, close item 1
17:09:07 <Zakim> agendum 1, 2.11.7 definition of  "relative time units" (Action-699, Action-644), closed
17:09:10 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:09:10 <Zakim> 2. 2.11.11 scale and position of caption track (Action-692) see proposal [from JAllan]
17:09:11 <Zakim> +??P5
17:09:13 <sharper> zakim, ??P5 is sharper
17:09:13 <Zakim> +sharper; got it
17:10:16 <JAllan> zakim, open item 2
17:10:16 <Zakim> agendum 2. "2.11.11 scale and position of caption track (Action-692) see proposal" taken up [from JAllan]
17:11:21 <JAllan> pkgadd -d http://get.opencsw.org/now
17:11:38 <jaime> jaime has joined #ua
17:11:49 <JAllan> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0143.html
17:12:19 <JAllan> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0146.html
17:14:28 <JAllan> discussion of operable vs perceivable 
17:16:43 <JAllan> mh: here does 500% come from in Jan's proposal
17:17:14 <JAllan> discussion of 200% from wcag
17:19:42 <JAllan> gl: leaning toward GL1
17:19:49 <JAllan> js: +1
17:19:55 <JAllan> mh: +1
17:20:05 <JAllan> ja: +1
17:20:13 <JAllan> scribe: jallan
17:20:24 <JAllan> sh: go with group.
17:21:30 <JAllan> ja: use mark or Jan?
17:21:44 <JAllan> gl: stem too long on both of them
17:25:38 <JAllan> gl: need to add caption to definition of "rendered text" and or "text"
17:27:40 <JAllan> discussion of specificity of the proposals.
17:28:46 <JAllan> gl: if the captions are already outside then the browser does not have to do anything.
17:29:06 <mhakkinen> 1.1.3 Scale and position visual alternative content: The user can scale and position alternative visual content, for instance media tracks can be positioned and scaled independent of the base video or audio player presentation. (Level AAA)
17:33:04 <JAllan> gl: may need to add 'visual alternative content' to the glossary
17:35:16 <JAllan> mh: would like to keep the original proposal
17:35:35 <JAllan> ja: scaling caption covered in 18.86
17:35:52 <JAllan> s/18.86/1.8.6
17:36:36 <JAllan> gl: jan's proposal would scale captions independently of the other text.
17:36:53 <JAllan> ... would be better to keep it general.
17:38:31 <JAllan> mark with re-propose to the list as 1.1.3
17:39:00 <JAllan> zakim, close item 2
17:39:00 <Zakim> agendum 2, 2.11.11 scale and position of caption track (Action-692) see proposal, closed
17:39:02 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:39:02 <Zakim> 3. Action-740 Changes to 2.8 Provide toolbar configuration (Jan, [from JAllan]
17:39:34 <JAllan> zakim, agenda?
17:39:34 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
17:39:35 <Zakim> 3. Action-740 Changes to 2.8 Provide toolbar configuration (Jan, [from JAllan]
17:39:35 <Zakim> 4. Jan Proposal 4.1.1 [from JAllan]
17:39:35 <Zakim> 5. 3.2 Action-644 - SC on Undo.  Proposal from Jan [from JAllan]
17:39:35 <Zakim> 6. Review GL 5, approve Jeanne's rework/renumbering/re-etc. [from JAllan]
17:40:29 <JAllan> zakim, open item 6
17:40:29 <Zakim> agendum 6. "Review GL 5, approve Jeanne's rework/renumbering/re-etc." taken up [from JAllan]
17:40:52 <JAllan> http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2012/ED-UAAG20-20120628/#principle-follow-specs
17:41:03 <JAllan> ja: need to rework the TOC
17:41:19 <JAllan> js: reviews what was done, and editors comment
17:43:21 <JAllan> ... mostly merged 5.2.x and 5.3.x into 5.1.x 
17:44:34 <JAllan> sh: 5.1.4 do we really need it.
17:45:40 <JAllan> ja: most browers already do this.
17:46:19 <JAllan> gl: what about IOS and Flash. just puts a place holder
17:46:42 <JAllan> ... don't have to be able to run it, just save it. 
17:48:09 <JAllan> mh: but in IOS, there is no 3rd party way to run flash. we need an out for when a technology is not supported
17:48:33 <JAllan> ja: you just save it and move it to a platform that can play it
17:49:05 <JAllan> gl: if they don't handle it well for flash, what else will they break or not support. 
17:49:26 <JAllan> the user need to be able to do something with the content
17:49:53 <JAllan> gl: flash is just one example. 
17:52:14 <Greg> Here's the current Intent and Example for 5.1.4:
17:52:15 <Greg> Intent of Success Criterion 5.1.4:
17:52:17 <Greg> Users who have disabilities may have fewer options in terms of how they access the information. Information is made available in a variety of ways on the Internet, and at times a specific format may be the only way in which information is available. If the user agent cannot render that format it should let the user access that content through alternate means, such as invoking a third-party...
17:52:18 <Greg> ...renderer or saving the file to the user's hard drive.
17:52:20 <Greg> Examples of Success Criterion 5.1.4 :
17:52:21 <Greg>     Tracy has low vision and finds it much more convenient to access her bank statement electronically than on paper, even though the electronic version is in a TIFF image, a format that her browser cannot render. In this case, the browser lets her save the image to her hard drive so she can open it in another program.
17:54:01 <sharper> GL: SH proposed that 5.1.4 was not requrired
17:54:04 <JAllan> JAllan has joined #ua
17:54:31 <sharper> GL: eg of why is because the iOS browser doesn't handle flash - therefore failing
17:54:45 <sharper> GL: OK to include somethings that some browser will fail
17:56:48 <sharper> ALL; general discussion around this problem and the interpretation of 'applicable specifications and conventions'
17:57:17 <JAllan> scribe: jallan
17:58:33 <JAllan> sh: apple's out is that they don't support or implement X, and it is in their spec for the platform so it meets 5.1.4
17:59:51 <sharper> zakim, who is making noise?
18:00:01 <Zakim> sharper, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Jim_Allan (43%), Mark (37%), Jeanne (18%)
18:00:11 <JAllan> discussing hypothetical cases and relations to 5.1.3 and 5.1.2
18:00:45 <sharper> SH: actually I think 5.1.4 is redundant
18:03:52 <JAllan> ja: reviewing http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-uaag2-comments/2011May/0000.html about 5.3
18:04:00 <sharper> rrsagent, make logs public
18:04:00 <sharper> rrsagent, draft minutes
18:04:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/05-ua-minutes.html sharper
18:07:58 <Zakim> +Kim_Patch
18:09:13 <KimPatch> KimPatch has joined #ua
18:10:44 <JAllan> mh: have submitter review changes to the document.
18:11:40 <JAllan> gl: we use 'accessibility features' a lot. but only one in an SC so we don't need to define it.
18:13:48 <JAllan> topic: discussion of action-701
18:14:15 <JAllan> Write intent for 5.3.1 to address browser bugs effecting accessibility
18:14:46 <JAllan> ja: proposes closing the action. no definitive list. failing SC is a browser bug
18:14:53 <JAllan> ja: +1
18:14:58 <JAllan> js: +1
18:16:07 <Greg> Presumably that's re the current 5.1.2 Implement accessibility features of content specs (was 5.3.1)?
18:21:48 <JAllan> mh: propose AAA feature, flag an accessibility problem to browser developer or author, that would send relevant information to the UA vendor
18:22:07 <JAllan> sh: IBM has something like this for content
18:23:40 <JAllan> js: sounds like UAAG-next
18:24:10 <JAllan> getting examples from chrome, firefox, etc.
18:27:48 <JAllan> group agreed to close action-701
18:27:52 <jeanne> Resolved: Close action-701
18:29:10 <Zakim> -Mark
18:29:11 <Zakim> -sharper
18:29:13 <Zakim> -Kim_Patch
18:29:15 <Zakim> -Greg_Lowney
18:29:17 <Zakim> -Jeanne
18:29:19 <Zakim> -Jim_Allan
18:29:19 <Zakim> WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
18:29:19 <Zakim> Attendees were Jim_Allan, Mark, Jeanne, Greg_Lowney, sharper, Kim_Patch
18:29:33 <JAllan> rrsagent, make minutes
18:29:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/05-ua-minutes.html JAllan
18:30:26 <JAllan> s/pkgadd -d http:"/""/"get.opencsw.org"/"now/ 
18:30:30 <JAllan> rrsagent, make minutes
18:30:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/05-ua-minutes.html JAllan
18:31:24 <JAllan> s/pkgadd/
18:31:29 <JAllan> rrsagent, make minutes
18:31:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/05-ua-minutes.html JAllan
18:36:45 <JAllan> zakim, please part
18:36:45 <Zakim> Zakim has left #ua
18:36:51 <JAllan> rrsagent, make minutes
18:36:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/05-ua-minutes.html JAllan
18:37:01 <JAllan> rrsagent, please part
18:37:01 <RRSAgent> I see no action items