20:59:59 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #svg
20:59:59 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/07/05-svg-irc
21:00:01 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
21:00:03 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
21:00:03 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see GA_SVGWG(SVG1)5:00PM already started
21:00:04 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
21:00:04 <trackbot> Date: 05 July 2012
21:00:06 <birtles> Zakim, ??P2 is me
21:00:06 <Zakim> +birtles; got it
21:00:23 <Zakim> +??P10
21:00:25 <heycam> Zakim, ??P10 is me
21:00:25 <Zakim> +heycam; got it
21:00:51 <Zakim> +??P11
21:01:10 <ed_tmp> Zakim, ??P11 is me
21:01:10 <Zakim> +ed_tmp; got it
21:01:53 <heycam> agenda+ Dirk's question about media fragments
21:02:29 <Zakim> +Cyril
21:02:48 <ed_home> Zakim, list agenda
21:02:48 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda:
21:02:50 <Zakim> 1. pointer-events [from shepazu]
21:02:50 <Zakim> 2. Dirk's question about media fragments [from heycam]
21:03:12 <heycam> Zakim, drop agendum 1
21:03:12 <Zakim> agendum 1, pointer-events, dropped
21:03:44 <ed_home> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012JulSep/0000.html
21:04:07 <birtles> scribenick: birtles
21:04:24 <birtles> topic: SVG F2F at SVG Open
21:04:45 <birtles> heycam, have we resolved on this yet?
21:04:50 <ed_home> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F_SVGOpen_2012
21:05:10 <birtles> CM: asked Andreas about this, fine but we need to let him know if we will meet before or after SVG open
21:05:19 <birtles> ED: we have a wiki which suggests we've resolved it
21:05:28 <ed_home> 17 - 19 September 2012
21:05:30 <birtles> ED: it says 17th-19th Sep
21:05:43 <birtles> CM: i.e. directly after SVG Open
21:05:59 <birtles> CM: so it's going ahead?
21:06:03 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
21:06:24 <birtles> CM: I'll get to Andreas with those dates
21:07:04 <birtles> topic: Seattle/Paris F2F
21:07:19 <ed_home> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Seattle_Paris_2012/Agenda_proposals
21:07:21 <birtles> ED: please remember to add agenda topics
21:08:33 <ed_home> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Seattle_Paris_2012
21:08:43 <birtles> ED: Cyril added some details for the Paris part
21:09:28 <birtles> CM: The hotel is about 20min walk from the venue
21:09:34 <birtles> ... I wonder how it will work logistically
21:10:27 <birtles> DS: I'll probably rent a car...
21:10:57 <heycam> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/19480/SVGSeattleParis2012/results
21:10:59 <birtles> ... some others live there
21:11:49 <birtles> ... who is actually attending Seattle?
21:13:54 <birtles> ... we have 6 non-locals: we could rent a bigger vehicle or see if Rik can help
21:15:09 <birtles> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Seattle_Paris_2012
21:15:28 <birtles> ... those of us flying in should share our info
21:16:12 <birtles> ... I'll put my information there and people who want a ride can... can... can...
21:16:25 <birtles> ... I'll work it out with Rik
21:17:13 <birtles> CC: I tested the videoconferencing equipment with Adobe and we couldn't make a full test
21:17:21 <birtles> ... I'd like to make another test this week
21:17:42 <birtles> ... I'll email them
21:18:09 <birtles> CM: it's three days of meetings right?
21:18:16 <birtles> ED: yes
21:18:28 <birtles> CM: do we want to focus on spec work during those days?
21:18:41 <birtles> ... since we want to publish directly after the F2F
21:18:57 <birtles> DS: I'd like us to spend about 1/3rd of the time (a bit each day) working on specs
21:18:59 <birtles> ED: fine with me
21:19:10 <birtles> CC: In Paris we could work in the afternoon before the conference
21:19:21 <birtles> ... and in Seattle you could work after the conference
21:19:29 <birtles> ... then it wouldn't have to start so early in Seattle
21:19:52 <birtles> CM: I'll send a mail out to the list with a proposal about allocating time for spec work
21:20:25 <ed_home> Zakim, take up agendum 1
21:20:25 <Zakim> agendum 1. "pointer-events" taken up [from shepazu]
21:20:30 <ed_home> Zakim, take up agendum 2
21:20:30 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Dirk's question about media fragments" taken up [from heycam]
21:20:44 <heycam> RRSAgent, make minutes
21:20:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/05-svg-minutes.html heycam
21:21:46 <birtles> CM: Dirk sent an email with concerns about media fragments and how that interacts with our SVG view specifications that you can put in URI references
21:22:04 <birtles> ... he was concerned that the media fragment spec uses predefined identifiers x, y, t etc.
21:22:14 <birtles> ... that that would conflict with SVG elements with IDs with those identifiers
21:22:29 <birtles> ... with media fragments you always have to put something after the identifier with =
21:22:37 <birtles> ... I don't think that problem actually occurs
21:23:23 <birtles> DS: there's a problem with using barename hash with media values
21:23:41 <birtles> ... it makes sense with video for that resource to have time information
21:23:51 <birtles> ... but what if you visit an HTML page which contains a video
21:24:02 <birtles> ... sites like youtube pass the fragment into the video
21:24:06 <birtles> ... seems fragile but maybe ok
21:24:21 <birtles> ... but what about an HTML or SVG page that has multiple media resources
21:24:29 <birtles> ... what if you want to target only one of those resources
21:24:35 <birtles> ... e.g. two videos and four soundtracks
21:24:45 <birtles> ... the application lets you take clips from each one of those
21:24:49 <birtles> ... and lets you mix them together
21:25:00 <birtles> ... I want to target the timepoint of just one video
21:25:15 <birtles> CC: it depends how many timelines you have in your document
21:25:26 <birtles> DS: yes, how do you target just one
21:25:37 <birtles> ... I don't think there's a mechanism for that
21:25:59 <birtles> ... what do you do?
21:26:09 <birtles> ... how do you parameterise it?
21:26:24 <birtles> ... what if I want to target one video and the italian audiotrack?
21:26:32 <birtles> CC: that's not up to the media fragments spec
21:26:40 <birtles> ... it's up to the document to do what it wants with the time
21:27:01 <birtles> DS: I'm concerned that that's fragile
21:27:18 <birtles> ... there's no way of targetting a specific element with a specific time
21:28:26 <birtles> ... making the document do it all is more work for the application
21:29:11 <birtles> CM: sounds like an issue for the media fragments spec
21:29:21 <birtles> ... Dirk's concern was more with incompatibility with SVG syntax
21:29:31 <birtles> ... I still don't think there's incompatibility
21:30:01 <birtles> ... but being able to address multiple times within a multi-resource document sounds like something to be solved within media fragments
21:30:12 <birtles> ... and not related to integrating with SVG
21:31:28 <birtles> ED: so there are no incompatibilities?
21:31:45 <birtles> CM: not unless we allow IDs with = signs
21:31:55 <birtles> ... but currently they are XML Names so we're ok
21:32:16 <birtles> ED: would we have to special case fragments in SVG? or just point to media fragments?
21:32:38 <birtles> CM: we might want to reformulate svgViews as a type of hash that falls under the media fragment scheme
21:32:52 <birtles> ... or just make it a top-level switch: either viewbox or media fragment
21:33:01 <birtles> ... it would probably have to stay separate
21:33:09 <birtles> DS: I think we need to work with them
21:33:24 <birtles> ... I'd like to raise a slightly different issue around IDs
21:33:34 <birtles> ... they are currently XML Names
21:33:49 <birtles> ... I see so many files that are invalid because people want to use a number for an ID
21:34:02 <birtles> ... I don't know why IDs starting with numbers aren't allowed
21:34:12 <birtles> ... but in retrospect it seems ridiculous
21:34:30 <birtles> ... now you have to do, e.g. id="e1" or id="_1"
21:34:46 <birtles> ... do you think it's reasonable we go against that
21:35:05 <birtles> ... there are two communities: do the XML thing; or, people want to use numbers so let them
21:35:27 <birtles> ... do you think it might be worth allow a different microsyntax for IDs to allow numbers?
21:35:37 <birtles> CM: seems reasonable, since HTML allows it
21:35:54 <birtles> DS: we'd have to disallow = signs for compatibility with media fragments
21:36:18 <birtles> CM: I think id was moving from HTMLElement/SVGElement to Element in the IDL
21:36:33 <birtles> ... so if there's a single place for it, then it should have consistent behavior
21:36:45 <birtles> ... and it's good from an authors expectations point of view
21:36:51 <birtles> DS: I'd like to align with HTML/DOM here
21:36:57 <birtles> ED: I agree
21:37:56 <birtles> CM: I don't think HTML does any special with what follows the # but just makes it all an ID ref
21:38:16 <birtles> DS: do you think we could resolve to use the HTML production?
21:38:37 <birtles> CM: the HTML spec says "an opaque string"
21:38:52 <birtles> ... there's some trickiness with non-ASCII values
21:38:59 <birtles> ... and special URL encoding
21:39:16 <birtles> ... but I'd be in favour of aligning here
21:42:32 <birtles> RESOLUTION: we will align HTML/DOM on ID attribute values (incl. numbers as the first character)
21:42:57 <birtles> RESOLUTION: we will work to avoid conflict in our fragment identifiers with Media Fragments
21:44:19 <Zakim> -ed_tmp
21:44:27 <birtles> rssagent, make minutes
21:44:27 <Zakim> -Cyril
21:44:32 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
21:44:43 <birtles> RRSAgent, make minutes
21:44:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/05-svg-minutes.html birtles
21:48:59 <Zakim> -heycam
21:49:01 <Zakim> -birtles
21:49:01 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG(SVG1)5:00PM has ended
21:49:01 <Zakim> Attendees were birtles, heycam, ed_tmp, Cyril, Doug_Schepers
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