IRC log of svg on 2012-07-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

20:59:59 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
21:00:01 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
21:00:03 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
21:00:03 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot, I see GA_SVGWG(SVG1)5:00PM already started
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Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
21:00:04 [trackbot]
Date: 05 July 2012
21:00:06 [birtles]
Zakim, ??P2 is me
21:00:06 [Zakim]
+birtles; got it
21:00:23 [Zakim]
21:00:25 [heycam]
Zakim, ??P10 is me
21:00:25 [Zakim]
+heycam; got it
21:00:51 [Zakim]
21:01:10 [ed_tmp]
Zakim, ??P11 is me
21:01:10 [Zakim]
+ed_tmp; got it
21:01:53 [heycam]
agenda+ Dirk's question about media fragments
21:02:29 [Zakim]
21:02:48 [ed_home]
Zakim, list agenda
21:02:48 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda:
21:02:50 [Zakim]
1. pointer-events [from shepazu]
21:02:50 [Zakim]
2. Dirk's question about media fragments [from heycam]
21:03:12 [heycam]
Zakim, drop agendum 1
21:03:12 [Zakim]
agendum 1, pointer-events, dropped
21:03:44 [ed_home]
21:04:07 [birtles]
scribenick: birtles
21:04:24 [birtles]
topic: SVG F2F at SVG Open
21:04:45 [birtles]
heycam, have we resolved on this yet?
21:04:50 [ed_home]
21:05:10 [birtles]
CM: asked Andreas about this, fine but we need to let him know if we will meet before or after SVG open
21:05:19 [birtles]
ED: we have a wiki which suggests we've resolved it
21:05:28 [ed_home]
17 - 19 September 2012
21:05:30 [birtles]
ED: it says 17th-19th Sep
21:05:43 [birtles]
CM: i.e. directly after SVG Open
21:05:59 [birtles]
CM: so it's going ahead?
21:06:03 [Zakim]
21:06:24 [birtles]
CM: I'll get to Andreas with those dates
21:07:04 [birtles]
topic: Seattle/Paris F2F
21:07:19 [ed_home]
21:07:21 [birtles]
ED: please remember to add agenda topics
21:08:33 [ed_home]
21:08:43 [birtles]
ED: Cyril added some details for the Paris part
21:09:28 [birtles]
CM: The hotel is about 20min walk from the venue
21:09:34 [birtles]
... I wonder how it will work logistically
21:10:27 [birtles]
DS: I'll probably rent a car...
21:10:57 [heycam]
21:10:59 [birtles]
... some others live there
21:11:49 [birtles]
... who is actually attending Seattle?
21:13:54 [birtles]
... we have 6 non-locals: we could rent a bigger vehicle or see if Rik can help
21:15:09 [birtles]
21:15:28 [birtles]
... those of us flying in should share our info
21:16:12 [birtles]
... I'll put my information there and people who want a ride can... can... can...
21:16:25 [birtles]
... I'll work it out with Rik
21:17:13 [birtles]
CC: I tested the videoconferencing equipment with Adobe and we couldn't make a full test
21:17:21 [birtles]
... I'd like to make another test this week
21:17:42 [birtles]
... I'll email them
21:18:09 [birtles]
CM: it's three days of meetings right?
21:18:16 [birtles]
ED: yes
21:18:28 [birtles]
CM: do we want to focus on spec work during those days?
21:18:41 [birtles]
... since we want to publish directly after the F2F
21:18:57 [birtles]
DS: I'd like us to spend about 1/3rd of the time (a bit each day) working on specs
21:18:59 [birtles]
ED: fine with me
21:19:10 [birtles]
CC: In Paris we could work in the afternoon before the conference
21:19:21 [birtles]
... and in Seattle you could work after the conference
21:19:29 [birtles]
... then it wouldn't have to start so early in Seattle
21:19:52 [birtles]
CM: I'll send a mail out to the list with a proposal about allocating time for spec work
21:20:25 [ed_home]
Zakim, take up agendum 1
21:20:25 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "pointer-events" taken up [from shepazu]
21:20:30 [ed_home]
Zakim, take up agendum 2
21:20:30 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Dirk's question about media fragments" taken up [from heycam]
21:20:44 [heycam]
RRSAgent, make minutes
21:20:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate heycam
21:21:46 [birtles]
CM: Dirk sent an email with concerns about media fragments and how that interacts with our SVG view specifications that you can put in URI references
21:22:04 [birtles]
... he was concerned that the media fragment spec uses predefined identifiers x, y, t etc.
21:22:14 [birtles]
... that that would conflict with SVG elements with IDs with those identifiers
21:22:29 [birtles]
... with media fragments you always have to put something after the identifier with =
21:22:37 [birtles]
... I don't think that problem actually occurs
21:23:23 [birtles]
DS: there's a problem with using barename hash with media values
21:23:41 [birtles]
... it makes sense with video for that resource to have time information
21:23:51 [birtles]
... but what if you visit an HTML page which contains a video
21:24:02 [birtles]
... sites like youtube pass the fragment into the video
21:24:06 [birtles]
... seems fragile but maybe ok
21:24:21 [birtles]
... but what about an HTML or SVG page that has multiple media resources
21:24:29 [birtles]
... what if you want to target only one of those resources
21:24:35 [birtles]
... e.g. two videos and four soundtracks
21:24:45 [birtles]
... the application lets you take clips from each one of those
21:24:49 [birtles]
... and lets you mix them together
21:25:00 [birtles]
... I want to target the timepoint of just one video
21:25:15 [birtles]
CC: it depends how many timelines you have in your document
21:25:26 [birtles]
DS: yes, how do you target just one
21:25:37 [birtles]
... I don't think there's a mechanism for that
21:25:59 [birtles]
... what do you do?
21:26:09 [birtles]
... how do you parameterise it?
21:26:24 [birtles]
... what if I want to target one video and the italian audiotrack?
21:26:32 [birtles]
CC: that's not up to the media fragments spec
21:26:40 [birtles]
... it's up to the document to do what it wants with the time
21:27:01 [birtles]
DS: I'm concerned that that's fragile
21:27:18 [birtles]
... there's no way of targetting a specific element with a specific time
21:28:26 [birtles]
... making the document do it all is more work for the application
21:29:11 [birtles]
CM: sounds like an issue for the media fragments spec
21:29:21 [birtles]
... Dirk's concern was more with incompatibility with SVG syntax
21:29:31 [birtles]
... I still don't think there's incompatibility
21:30:01 [birtles]
... but being able to address multiple times within a multi-resource document sounds like something to be solved within media fragments
21:30:12 [birtles]
... and not related to integrating with SVG
21:31:28 [birtles]
ED: so there are no incompatibilities?
21:31:45 [birtles]
CM: not unless we allow IDs with = signs
21:31:55 [birtles]
... but currently they are XML Names so we're ok
21:32:16 [birtles]
ED: would we have to special case fragments in SVG? or just point to media fragments?
21:32:38 [birtles]
CM: we might want to reformulate svgViews as a type of hash that falls under the media fragment scheme
21:32:52 [birtles]
... or just make it a top-level switch: either viewbox or media fragment
21:33:01 [birtles]
... it would probably have to stay separate
21:33:09 [birtles]
DS: I think we need to work with them
21:33:24 [birtles]
... I'd like to raise a slightly different issue around IDs
21:33:34 [birtles]
... they are currently XML Names
21:33:49 [birtles]
... I see so many files that are invalid because people want to use a number for an ID
21:34:02 [birtles]
... I don't know why IDs starting with numbers aren't allowed
21:34:12 [birtles]
... but in retrospect it seems ridiculous
21:34:30 [birtles]
... now you have to do, e.g. id="e1" or id="_1"
21:34:46 [birtles]
... do you think it's reasonable we go against that
21:35:05 [birtles]
... there are two communities: do the XML thing; or, people want to use numbers so let them
21:35:27 [birtles]
... do you think it might be worth allow a different microsyntax for IDs to allow numbers?
21:35:37 [birtles]
CM: seems reasonable, since HTML allows it
21:35:54 [birtles]
DS: we'd have to disallow = signs for compatibility with media fragments
21:36:18 [birtles]
CM: I think id was moving from HTMLElement/SVGElement to Element in the IDL
21:36:33 [birtles]
... so if there's a single place for it, then it should have consistent behavior
21:36:45 [birtles]
... and it's good from an authors expectations point of view
21:36:51 [birtles]
DS: I'd like to align with HTML/DOM here
21:36:57 [birtles]
ED: I agree
21:37:56 [birtles]
CM: I don't think HTML does any special with what follows the # but just makes it all an ID ref
21:38:16 [birtles]
DS: do you think we could resolve to use the HTML production?
21:38:37 [birtles]
CM: the HTML spec says "an opaque string"
21:38:52 [birtles]
... there's some trickiness with non-ASCII values
21:38:59 [birtles]
... and special URL encoding
21:39:16 [birtles]
... but I'd be in favour of aligning here
21:42:32 [birtles]
RESOLUTION: we will align HTML/DOM on ID attribute values (incl. numbers as the first character)
21:42:57 [birtles]
RESOLUTION: we will work to avoid conflict in our fragment identifiers with Media Fragments
21:44:19 [Zakim]
21:44:27 [birtles]
rssagent, make minutes
21:44:27 [Zakim]
21:44:32 [Zakim]
21:44:43 [birtles]
RRSAgent, make minutes
21:44:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate birtles
21:48:59 [Zakim]
21:49:01 [Zakim]
21:49:01 [Zakim]
GA_SVGWG(SVG1)5:00PM has ended
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Attendees were birtles, heycam, ed_tmp, Cyril, Doug_Schepers
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