13:43:18 RRSAgent has joined #mlw-lt 13:43:18 logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/07/05-mlw-lt-irc 13:43:26 meeting: MLW-LT working group 13:43:29 chair: felix 13:43:31 scribe: tbd 13:43:36 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Jul/0048.html 13:44:19 regrets: olaf, arle, michael 13:44:33 regrets+ Shaun 13:54:47 dF has joined #mlw-lt 13:55:05 present: dF, Yves, felix 13:55:16 Yves_ has joined #mlw-lt 13:56:14 present+ dom 13:59:18 present+ dave 13:59:47 daveL has joined #mlw-lt 14:00:21 scribe: Yves_ 14:02:02 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:02:02 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/05-mlw-lt-minutes.html Yves_ 14:02:17 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Jul/0048.html 14:02:28 topic: previous minutes 14:02:33 http://www.w3.org/2012/06/28-mlw-lt-minutes.html 14:02:44 no comments 14:02:51 topic: actions and events 14:03:06 ACTION-115 and ACTION-127 - Des is not here, so postponed 14:03:41 action: Yves to work on targetPointer 14:03:41 Created ACTION-153 - Work on targetPointer [on Yves Savourel - due 2012-07-12]. 14:03:43 philr has joined #mlw-lt 14:04:12 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:04:12 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/05-mlw-lt-minutes.html Yves_ 14:04:16 present+ philr 14:05:27 present+ Pedro 14:05:57 Jirka has joined #mlw-lt 14:06:05 present+ Jirka 14:06:13 topic: General reminder: our plan until September 14:06:20 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Jun/0133.html 14:06:39 pub for 26 of July 14:06:53 .. does not depend on the call fo consensus 14:07:05 ok with all 14:07:07 topic: The Leipzig Semantic Web day 14:07:15 http://aksw.org/Events/2012/LeipzigerSemanticWebDay 14:07:28 event overlapping face-to-face meeting 14:07:37 in Prague 14:07:54 should we move F2F 27-28 of sept? 14:08:03 Jirka: not possible (holidays) 14:08:18 Felix: so stay with 25-26 sept. 14:08:22 topic: REMINDER - "call for consensus mails" 14:08:45 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Jul/0045.html 14:08:45 some confusion on how it works 14:09:09 an example email 0045 above 14:09:28 most easy to have the definition in the call 14:09:36 editors can just copy that later 14:10:15 Jirak or Felix can put it in the draft in ODD 14:10:21 topic: ISSUES 14:10:37 some we can close 14:10:52 cache, ruby, etc. 14:11:13 can we close the issues? Ruby we have an action item 14:11:24 all agree 14:11:28 can we close "cache" too? 14:11:55 all agree 14:12:38 issues still open with targetPointer, etc. 14:12:58 ISSUE-16 Parameter for rules , ISSUE-25 Existing metadata fields in Dublin core, ISSUE-26 Post editing related datacats 14:13:04 DomJones has joined #mlw-lt 14:13:14 daveL: can take post-editing 14:13:26 action: David to look into ISSUE-26 post editing data categories 14:13:26 Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - David 14:13:26 Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. dlewis6, dfilip) 14:13:36 action: dlewis6 to look into ISSUE-26 post editing data categories 14:13:37 Created ACTION-154 - Look into ISSUE-26 post editing data categories [on David Lewis - due 2012-07-12]. 14:13:55 action: Yves to work on parameters 14:13:55 Created ACTION-155 - Work on parameters [on Yves Savourel - due 2012-07-12]. 14:14:12 topic: working mode 14:14:21 http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Main_Page#Draft_documents_and_time_line 14:14:21 zakim, who is making noise? 14:14:22 sorry, Jirka, I don't know what conference this is 14:14:47 any question on the process? 14:14:55 Zakim would not know as the voice is on GoTo :-) 14:15:10 daveL: is it worth to have people posting whenthey are available over the summer? 14:15:19 zakim, this is mlw-lt 14:15:19 sorry, Jirka, I do not see a conference named 'mlw-lt' in progress or scheduled at this time 14:15:25 felix: propose to have stop during august 14:15:50 action: fsasaki to create page for july availability 14:15:50 Created ACTION-156 - Create page for july availability [on Felix Sasaki - due 2012-07-12]. 14:16:02 daveL will be out next week 14:16:11 dF: maybe a doodle page? 14:16:51 action 5: for july and august 14:16:51 Sorry, couldn't find user - 5 14:17:14 action-156: also for august 14:17:15 ACTION-156 Create page for july availability notes added 14:17:34 topic: Call for consensus about externalPlaceholder 14:17:41 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Jul/0000.html 14:17:49 made by Shaun 14:17:54 yves replied 14:18:04 any objection or need time? 14:18:10 good here 14:18:28 action: fsasaki to put Shuan text in ODD file 14:18:28 Created ACTION-157 - Put Shuan text in ODD file [on Felix Sasaki - due 2012-07-12]. 14:18:33 topic: Call for consensus about idValue 14:18:40 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Jul/0045.html 14:18:46 Yves posted that call 14:19:03 realted issue: id granularity 14:19:11 good here 14:19:12 daveL: yes, nothing to add. all fine 14:19:28 action: jirka to add the idValue to ODD 14:19:28 Created ACTION-158 - Add the idValue to ODD [on Jirka Kosek - due 2012-07-12]. 14:19:57 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Jul/att-0045/idValueDescription.pdf 14:20:19 topic: Charter clarification 14:20:27 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Jul/0012.html 14:20:33 dificult to drop RDFa 14:20:43 don't have Tadej, maxim here 14:21:04 thanks to Jirka for the place holder. we need Tadej, maxim to fill in. 14:21:22 daveL: in Dublin we talked about it, 14:21:54 felix: outcome with w3C was that we can't drop this 14:22:05 it's part of the charter now 14:22:16 but we can do it only where it make sense 14:22:29 daveL: so we need implementations too 14:22:49 felix: need an algorithm to create the markup 14:23:08 ... could adapt what i have, other too. no need for consumers 14:23:22 topic: specialRequirements 14:23:40 felix: long thread about this 14:24:04 scribe: fsasaki 14:24:17 yves: guiseppe came up with a proposal 14:24:24 .. two aspects: length text restriction 14:24:32 .. storage in a data base etc. 14:24:44 .. and to restrict the type of character that can be used for content 14:24:57 .. there was discussion whether that should be different data categories 14:25:07 .. latest proposition from Guiseppe seems to be quite workable 14:25:11 .. e.g. unit for storage 14:25:17 .. but it seems implementable 14:25:32 .. there was information about how to specifiy what character would be forbidden 14:25:41 .. e.g. using a subset of a regular expression 14:26:17 felix: how does this relate to the XLIFF TC work? 14:26:34 david: frederick said he will submit the draft for discussion before he leaves for vacation 14:26:47 pedro has joined #mlw-lt 14:26:48 felix: can we also see the draft? 14:26:56 david: I can post it to our mailing list 14:27:20 david: overlapping part is just storage and display not forbidden characters 14:27:35 .. from the three storage is more stable and makes more sense 14:27:44 .. I'd be happy to seperate the three isseus 14:27:52 .. I would just support storage size 14:28:06 .. latest proposal is implementable 14:28:19 felix: so you would not support restriction of characters? 14:28:27 david: it's not stable at this time 14:28:57 .. there is work needed to explore what regex is interoperable etc. 14:29:05 .. hard to do in a reasonable time frame 14:29:12 .. it is a good idea 14:29:15 .. but hard to do 14:29:19 .. in time 14:29:34 felix: constraints via xml schema 14:29:45 felix: constrains in xml can be expressed with XSD 14:29:46 .. or via schematron, path based constraint language 14:29:54 .. or schematron 14:30:08 .. those could be used for forbidden characters 14:30:09 +1 14:30:27 yves: not sure how that would work 14:30:32 .. in extracted data 14:30:45 .. you don't have the schema available when you process the document 14:30:59 .. it doesn't work during the translation 14:31:20 david: so you need a representation mechanism for roundtripping? 14:31:50 felix: couldn't you have a schematron file for the extracted content 14:31:52 yves: yes 14:32:00 .. forbidden characters is not a huge issue 14:32:05 .. length constraint is more used 14:32:26 There is CREPDL schema language for restricting character repertoire http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~eb2m-mrt/crepdl/ns/structure/1.0/index.xml 14:32:27 felix: couldn't that be in schematron too? e.g. via xpath 14:32:32 It's ISO standard 14:33:22 felix: if there is a solution in schematron, shouldn't we use that instead of re-inventing in ITS? 14:33:47 action: felix to make examples how length restriction could work in schematron or in xsd 14:33:48 Created ACTION-159 - Make examples how length restriction could work in schematron or in xsd [on Felix Sasaki - due 2012-07-12]. 14:34:03 action-159: take also CREPDL language into account 14:34:03 ACTION-159 Make examples how length restriction could work in schematron or in xsd notes added 14:34:28 Felix: seem storage aspect has consensus 14:34:33 Yves: yes 14:34:46 df: most useful and stable 14:34:59 felix: should it be its own data cat? 14:35:05 +1 14:35:19 +1 14:35:49 action: yves to summarise this to giussepe? 14:35:50 Created ACTION-160 - Summarise this to giussepe? [on Yves Savourel - due 2012-07-12]. 14:36:06 topic: Test suite design 14:36:22 action-168: ie. separation of length vs forbidden chars 14:36:22 Sorry... adding notes to ACTION-168 failed, please let sysreq know about it 14:37:09 daveL: will take this taks 14:37:18 ... looking at felix scripts 14:37:38 .. probaly we need more than the w3c framework 14:37:46 .. but we can use it 14:37:50 .. and add to it 14:38:08 .. it's a way to structure test repository 14:38:23 felix: yes. I'll continue to make use of the ITS 1.0 tests 14:38:37 topic: Auto language processing rule 14:38:37 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Jul/0010.html 14:38:51 More about a transliterate rule 14:39:11 anyone want to implement this? 14:39:38 yves: shaun has implemented something, I think 14:39:50 .. including also machine translation 14:40:09 .. how does it relate to BCP47 14:40:21 we should have same value 14:41:05 felix: BCP47 has additional decsriptor 14:41:28 yves: problem with bcp 47 extension, not used very widely 14:41:35 .. haven't seen any real use case for that 14:41:51 david: agree with felix that we should try to be consistent 14:41:52 df: yes we should try to be consistent 14:42:05 .. should be mappable 14:42:30 action : felix to talk to shaun about BCP47 compatibility 14:42:30 Created ACTION-161 - Talk to shaun about BCP47 compatibility [on Felix Sasaki - due 2012-07-12]. 14:43:01 daveL: broader question. should we look at language tags, etc. sourcelang, etc. 14:43:20 .. how those things work with BCP47? 14:43:45 issue would be: compatibility with BCP47 extensions 14:44:04 Pedro has joined #mlw-lt 14:44:15 felix: any thoughts on this? 14:44:30 I agree that it is a more general issue 14:45:26 topic: readiness 14:45:39 felix: long thread about that 14:45:48 daveL: summary: 14:46:19 .. from Dublin meeting, agreement seemed to say that it's about telling a file is ready to be processed 14:46:27 .. with some extra features 14:46:42 .. but also there are more attributes 14:46:50 .. closely related to translation jobs 14:47:00 .. they could be optional 14:47:17 .. are the more general than just for readiness? 14:48:10 .. also overlap with TS116049(?) 14:48:25 .. to specify translation job status, etc. 14:48:44 .. so should this be just in readiness or more general as translation parameters 14:49:20 .. it seems we were close to say we should ISO and Linport to do this 14:49:32 .. should it be seprated from readiness? 14:49:41 felix: other thoughts? 14:50:22 dF: related to business relations between parties 14:51:02 .. not sure all thise is ready for standardization 14:51:22 s/thise/this/ 14:51:34 felix: maybe like for specialRequirements 14:51:51 .. some parts could be extracted as useful and easy to implement 14:52:01 .. some atomic parts 14:52:28 .. a big beats for now. 14:52:45 .. but we don't want to kill those ideas either 14:53:00 daveL: pedro had some specific use cases. 14:53:25 .. maybe this could be addressing common use cases 14:53:34 .. i can floow up on that aspect 14:53:48 s/floow/follow/ 14:54:06 felix: could be also addition to the translate data cat 14:54:17 .. relates to conformance too 14:54:59 .. if we add to translate then implementation for translate would have to implement this too 14:55:33 Pedro is trying to speak, I told him to q here 14:55:36 daveL: readiness is more for real-time translation maybe 14:56:10 Pedro: we can provide requirements from real cases 14:57:01 .. we may have no time 14:57:42 .. our requirements may not be covered by readiness 14:58:10 .. priority, who does what, when, etc. 14:58:21 .. this is in the HTML page 14:58:33 .. and we can put it on the warpper 14:59:00 .. we have customers that need those metadata 14:59:23 felix: pedro, could you move on with those customer 14:59:32 .. and keep the WG in the loop 14:59:49 .. and provide example (like HTML code) 15:00:04 .. then we can put that either in the standard or as best practices 15:00:16 .. if we can't put it in 2.0 15:00:22 pedro: yes 15:00:37 .. we have to do anyway 15:01:12 .. our requirements apply to our customers 15:01:37 felix: can you present a partial showcase in september F2F? 15:01:50 pedro: for CMS of package 3 yes 15:02:01 .. for package 4, maybe some of it 15:02:47 .. we are implementing the solution for our customer 15:02:52 leave 15:02:57 action: pedro to present a readiness related partial showcase in september f2f, to see what is ready for standardization or what will be a best practice 15:02:57 Created ACTION-162 - Present a readiness related partial showcase in september f2f, to see what is ready for standardization or what will be a best practice [on Pedro Luis Díez Orzas - due 2012-07-12]. 15:03:36 pedro: yes. we'll have to talk with Cocomore too 15:04:07 felix: we do want to hear your requirements 15:04:19 .. without worrying about what ends up in standard 15:04:33 .. please continue the excitment 15:04:55 pedro: hope to have partial implementation in september 15:05:12 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:05:12 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/05-mlw-lt-minutes.html Yves_ 15:05:18 topic: domain discussion 15:05:47 felix: for this we need feedback from declan and Thomas 15:05:52 .. for the mapping 15:05:59 .. proposal on the table 15:06:16 http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/drafts/its20/its20.html#domain-implementation 15:06:27 domainMapping="automotive auto, medical medicine, 'criminal law' law, 'property law' law"/> 15:06:41 felix: list of strangs pairs 15:06:54 .. should we use URI instead of strings? 15:07:01 daveL: URI or strings 15:07:28 using URI doesn't break the definition 15:07:32 Felix: ok then 15:07:43 daveL: more a usage case 15:07:57 felix: then what the implementation need to do? 15:08:03 .. to be conformant 15:08:37 daveL: you just matching a string to a selection 15:08:59 .. in that case you have the option to use a more structure way 15:09:03 .. of doing this 15:09:31 .. if there are overlap you have to have a solution 15:09:42 .. don't think it change sthe definition 15:09:56 felix: URI as a diferent type of string 15:10:00 daveL: yes 15:10:07 .. no fetching of the URI 15:10:32 action: felix to write an example of "string as URI" for domain 15:10:32 Created ACTION-163 - Write an example of "string as URI" for domain [on Felix Sasaki - due 2012-07-12]. 15:11:02 topic: aob 15:11:37 dF: did we had a quorum? 15:11:58 felix: we could decide the rules 15:12:32 dF: qorum easier if missing people are put on bad standing 15:13:24 felix: we'll have a doodle pool to see how many people we can get during the summer 15:13:53 daveL: call for the LRC conference (20-21 sept) 15:14:06 .. should coordinate on submission 15:14:14 .. deadline is end of july 15:14:22 .. CNGL wa splanning demo there 15:14:36 .. some demo should be relevant for MLW-LT 15:15:18 lrc conference is on the wiki at https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/EventSchedule 15:15:25 .. showcase is on the day before 15:15:41 felix: no plan to submit yet 15:15:46 .. feel free to submit 15:16:24 .. notify about the showcase by email 15:16:41 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:16:41 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/05-mlw-lt-minutes.html Yves_ 15:16:57 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:16:57 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/05-mlw-lt-minutes.html Yves_ 15:17:20 Jirka has left #mlw-lt 15:33:06 zakim, bye 15:33:06 Zakim has left #mlw-lt 15:33:08 rrsagent, bye 15:33:08 I see 13 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/07/05-mlw-lt-actions.rdf : 15:33:08 ACTION: Yves to work on targetPointer [1] 15:33:08 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/07/05-mlw-lt-irc#T14-03-41 15:33:08 ACTION: David to look into ISSUE-26 post editing data categories [2] 15:33:08 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/07/05-mlw-lt-irc#T14-13-26 15:33:08 ACTION: dlewis6 to look into ISSUE-26 post editing data categories [3] 15:33:08 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/07/05-mlw-lt-irc#T14-13-36 15:33:08 ACTION: Yves to work on parameters [4] 15:33:08 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/07/05-mlw-lt-irc#T14-13-55 15:33:08 ACTION: fsasaki to create page for july availability [5] 15:33:08 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/07/05-mlw-lt-irc#T14-15-50 15:33:08 ACTION: 5 to for july and august [6] 15:33:08 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/07/05-mlw-lt-irc#T14-16-51 15:33:08 ACTION: fsasaki to put Shuan text in ODD file [7] 15:33:08 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/07/05-mlw-lt-irc#T14-18-28 15:33:08 ACTION: jirka to add the idValue to ODD [8] 15:33:08 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/07/05-mlw-lt-irc#T14-19-28 15:33:08 ACTION: felix to make examples how length restriction could work in schematron or in xsd [9] 15:33:08 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/07/05-mlw-lt-irc#T14-33-47 15:33:08 ACTION: yves to summarise this to giussepe? [10] 15:33:08 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/07/05-mlw-lt-irc#T14-35-49 15:33:08 ACTION: felix to talk to shaun about BCP47 compatibility [11] 15:33:08 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/07/05-mlw-lt-irc#T14-42-30 15:33:08 ACTION: pedro to present a readiness related partial showcase in september f2f, to see what is ready for standardization or what will be a best practice [12] 15:33:08 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/07/05-mlw-lt-irc#T15-02-57 15:33:08 ACTION: felix to write an example of "string as URI" for domain [13] 15:33:08 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/07/05-mlw-lt-irc#T15-10-32