15:33:53 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #html-techs-tf
15:33:53 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/07/02-html-techs-tf-irc
15:34:00 <Joshue108> zakim, this will be 9224
15:34:00 <Zakim> ok, Joshue108; I see WAI_HTML TT()11:30AM scheduled to start 4 minutes ago
15:34:10 <Joshue108> rrsagent, make log world
15:34:41 <Joshue108> Meeting: HTML Techniques Task Force
15:34:46 <Joshue108> Chair: Joshue
15:34:56 <Joshue108> Agenda + * https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/html-techs-28-June-2012/
15:35:17 <Joshue108> Agenda + Dividing up the remaining ARIA techniques http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Techniques/ARIA
15:55:20 <adam> adam has joined #html-techs-tf
15:57:21 <Detlev> Detlev has joined #html-techs-tf
15:59:03 <Zakim> WAI_HTML TT()11:30AM has now started
15:59:10 <Zakim> +??P3
15:59:19 <Joshue108> zakim, ??P3 is Joshue
15:59:19 <Zakim> +Joshue; got it
16:00:20 <Zakim> +??P5
16:00:41 <Joshue108> zakim, ??P5 is Adam
16:00:41 <Zakim> +Adam; got it
16:01:51 <Joshue108> Agenda + activedescendant seems more like a 2.1.1 technique than a
16:01:52 <Joshue108> 2.4.3 technique.
16:02:53 <Zakim> +??P9
16:03:15 <Joshue108> zakim, ??P9 is Loretta
16:03:15 <Zakim> +Loretta; got it
16:03:31 <Zakim> +Detlev
16:03:32 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #html-techs-tf
16:04:16 <Loretta_> Loretta_ has joined #html-techs-tf
16:04:28 <Zakim> +James_Nurthen
16:04:31 <Loretta_> Yes, it took me several tries.
16:06:28 <Loretta_> Scribe:Loretta
16:06:38 <Joshue108> zakim, take up item 1
16:06:38 <Zakim> agendum 1. "* https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/html-techs-28-June-2012/" taken up [from Joshue108]
16:07:35 <Loretta_> Topic: Using arua-labelledby for link purpose
16:08:17 <Loretta_> s/arua/aria/
16:08:19 <Joshue108> s/arua/aria
16:08:56 <Loretta_> Loretta asked about the order of text to be concatenated
16:09:21 <Loretta_> Detlev's testing shows that the order of the ids is the order of concatentation.
16:10:19 <Loretta_> Loretta: what about text of link itselv?
16:11:05 <Loretta_> Detlef: it seems to depend on the browser. In one browser it just reads the label text and not the link text; in another browser it just reads the link text and not the label text.
16:11:34 <Loretta_> Detlev: Steve Faulkner has an article that discusses some of these differences.
16:12:18 <Loretta_> Loretta: not sufficient? 
16:12:42 <Loretta_> James: works ok with links
16:12:57 <Loretta_> Josh: were your tests with links consistent
16:13:26 <Loretta_> Detlev: I'm not sure. With links, it may work but not always. Will need more testing for user agent support.
16:14:39 <Loretta_> James: the element that is referenced by aria-labelled by needs to be in the tab order. Using tabindex=-1 is sufficient.
16:14:49 <Loretta_> James: this is a deficiency in IE's implementation.
16:15:09 <Loretta_> Josh: Detlev, will you update this with test result information, and this dicussion.
16:16:00 <Loretta_> Loretta: how do these links show up in the links list?
16:16:10 <Loretta_> Josh: I thin only the link text will show up in the list.
16:16:23 <Loretta_> James: Why? Shouldn't it include the entire label?
16:17:31 <Loretta_> Loretta: Detlev, could you please test this while you are checking aria-labelledby for links.
16:17:35 <Loretta_> Detlev: yes
16:20:34 <Loretta_> James: Shouldn't labelledby replace the text? To include both, you would need to include an id to the element itself.
16:21:52 <Loretta_> Loretta: links are a different sort of interactive element, since most don't have the equivalent of link text.
16:22:05 <Loretta_> Josh: I will do more testing tomorrow and post the results to the test.
16:24:22 <Joshue108> Loretta: I don't see anything here that would be unavailable to an AT user.
16:29:14 <Joshue108> Loretta: In the discussion of 2.4.4 one of the challenges is the loss of context.
16:29:31 <Joshue108> LGR: This is clear for a sighted person, difficult for a VIP.
16:29:54 <Joshue108> LGR: So there are issues that are general usability issues?
16:30:18 <Joshue108> LGR: Will providing labelledby, leave out other PwD?
16:33:50 <Detlev> zakim, mute me
16:33:50 <Zakim> Detlev should now be muted
16:34:29 <Detlev> Zakim, unmute me
16:34:29 <Zakim> Detlev should no longer be muted
16:50:27 <Loretta_> Loretta: Adam, will you bring the issue to the WB of whether the 2.4.4 sufficient techniques introduce problems for low vision users who are not using AT.
16:50:31 <Loretta_> Adam: ok
16:51:42 <Loretta_> Topic: Using aria-labelledby to concatenate a label from several text nodes
16:52:08 <Loretta_> Detlev: testing this has been quite challenging, with different results from different browser/AT combinations.
16:52:22 <Loretta_> Johs: I will test these cases, too.
16:53:12 <Loretta_> Adam commented that is would be good to have a consistent way to phrasing certain tests for all the techniques, e.g. testing for valid id.
16:53:48 <Loretta_> Adam to try to craft a proposal.
16:54:13 <Loretta_> Adam: is this sufficient or advisory?
16:54:20 <Loretta_> Loretta: is will depend on which SC
16:54:35 <Loretta_> Adam: for 3.2.2, label must be visible. THe examples are great.
16:56:11 <Loretta_> Loretta: This is probably applicable to other SC, e.g., 4.1.2 (assuming it is supported).
16:57:31 <Loretta_> Detle: use of native label with aria-labelledby.
16:57:49 <Loretta_> Detlev: For IE8, no aria will work.
16:58:20 <Zakim> -Adam
16:58:36 <Joshue108> Loretta: The tech should not require the redundant use of @label.
16:58:43 <Joshue108> Loretta: May need a note
16:59:11 <Joshue108> Detlev: Should native labels be removed?
16:59:32 <Joshue108> Loretta: Maybe have one w/o label. It is a little tricky.
17:00:05 <Joshue108> Detlev: We can have an example w/o native fallback and a discussion of both.
17:00:37 <Joshue108> Loretta: We don't include discussion of fallback for this reason.
17:00:48 <Joshue108> Loretta: But we do like to make people aware.
17:01:06 <Joshue108> Detlev: It would be good to make people aware, so it prob should be there.
17:01:19 <Joshue108> Loretta: Yes, but not in all examples.
17:01:44 <Joshue108> JN: We should say which bits are fall back and what are required for technique.
17:03:29 <Joshue108> Josh: We should add as much info as possible about our techs, support etc then sculpt.
17:08:36 <Zakim> -Joshue
17:08:39 <Zakim> -James_Nurthen
17:08:41 <Zakim> -Detlev
17:08:46 <Joshue108> zakim, draft minutes
17:08:46 <Zakim> I don't understand 'draft minutes', Joshue108
17:08:47 <Zakim> -Loretta
17:08:49 <Zakim> WAI_HTML TT()11:30AM has ended
17:08:49 <Zakim> Attendees were Joshue, Adam, Loretta, Detlev, James_Nurthen
17:08:53 <Joshue108> zakim, make minutes public
17:08:53 <Zakim> I don't understand 'make minutes public', Joshue108
17:09:02 <Joshue108> rrsagent, make minutes public
17:09:02 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', Joshue108.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
17:09:07 <Joshue108> rrsagent, make minutes
17:09:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/02-html-techs-tf-minutes.html Joshue108
17:09:19 <jamesn> rrsagent, make log public
17:09:25 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
17:09:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/02-html-techs-tf-minutes.html jamesn
17:10:26 <Joshue108> Yup, will do.