16:23:02 RRSAgent has joined #ua 16:23:02 logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/06/28-ua-irc 16:23:04 RRSAgent, make logs public 16:23:04 Zakim has joined #ua 16:23:06 Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG 16:23:06 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 37 minutes 16:23:07 Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference 16:23:07 Date: 28 June 2012 16:23:11 rrsagent, make minutes 16:23:11 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/28-ua-minutes.html JAllan 16:23:22 chair: jimallan, kellyford 16:53:26 Agenda+ merge 2.11.2, 3 ,4 (Action-505, Action-518) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0140.html 16:53:50 Agenda+ 2.11.7 definitions of "timebase", "continuous scale, "relative time units" (Action-699, Action-644) 16:54:02 Agenda+ 2.11.11 scale and position of caption track (Action-692) 16:54:15 Agenda+ 5.1.5 mathml example in IER (Action-653) 16:59:42 kford has joined #ua 17:00:42 jeanne has joined #ua 17:00:45 Greg has joined #ua 17:01:10 sharper has joined #ua 17:01:25 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started 17:01:30 +Jeanne 17:02:00 +Greg_Lowney 17:02:35 +Jim_Allan 17:02:43 +[Microsoft] 17:02:57 +Mark 17:02:59 microsoftzakim, microsoft is kford 17:03:07 zakim, microsoft is kford 17:03:07 +kford; got it 17:03:42 mhakkinen has joined #ua 17:04:12 zakim, code? 17:04:12 the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), sharper 17:04:19 present: jim, jeanne, greg, mark, simon 17:04:22 -kford 17:04:24 +??P10 17:04:26 regrets: mark 17:04:30 zakim, ??P10 is sharper 17:04:30 +sharper; got it 17:04:32 +Kim_Patch 17:04:35 regrets+kford 17:04:43 KimPatch has joined #ua 17:04:50 present +kim 17:05:28 Jan has joined #ua 17:05:51 zakim, code? 17:05:51 the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Jan 17:05:58 Agenda+ Mobile Symposium Report - www.w3.org/WAI/RD/2012/mobile/ 17:06:00 Jan's presentation: Assessment Of Keyboard Interface Accessibility In Mobile Browsers - http://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/2012/mobile/paper4/ 17:06:10 +??P7 17:06:35 zakim, ??P7 is really Jan 17:06:35 +Jan; got it 17:06:37 scribe: Harper_Simon 17:06:37 ScribeNick: sharper 17:06:48 zakim, agenda? 17:06:48 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda: 17:06:50 1. merge 2.11.2, 3 ,4 (Action-505, Action-518) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0140.html [from JAllan] 17:06:50 2. 2.11.7 definitions of "timebase", "continuous scale, "relative time units" (Action-699, Action-644) [from JAllan] 17:06:50 3. 2.11.11 scale and position of caption track (Action-692) [from JAllan] 17:06:50 4. 5.1.5 mathml example in IER (Action-653) [from JAllan] 17:06:51 5. Mobile Symposium Report - www.w3.org/WAI/RD/2012/mobile/ [from JAllan] 17:08:46 zakim, take up item 5 17:08:46 agendum 5. "Mobile Symposium Report - www.w3.org/WAI/RD/2012/mobile/" taken up [from JAllan] 17:09:19 Mobile symposium report, Jan did a presentation 17:09:28 jeanne was also present 17:10:12 JS very impressed, liked the format - peaople had a chance to read papers, then a discussion, lots of questions, filled in with questions from Yeliz 17:10:56 JS: disappointed in themes not aware of standards other than WCAG - applicability to mobile Jan was the super star. 17:11:22 JR: Liked format, no preaching, panel discussions 17:11:52 JR: took mobile browsers, scored on keyboard accessibility - UAAG has something to say on this 17:12:23 JR: scored on IpHone Android etc against a few sites - everyone needs to do their job, platform, browser, website 17:12:41 JR: FF scored low but now getting into accessibility on their mobile browsers 17:13:21 JR: Hopeful about mobile accessibility, first time , multiple large tech companies competing on features 17:13:50 JR: All can be made accessible (ATs etc - own accessible UI where ever they are) 17:14:28 JS: Brian Cragun from IBM very good qs 17:15:05 JR: mobile security containerise the phone so problems for accessibility when the phone is taken into some companies 17:15:29 JS: IBM policy to turn off siri 17:16:12 JS: everything is going to the apple servers fro processing - so security implications 17:16:21 SH: see Richard Stallman talk 17:17:13 AT&T has a similar back end speech engine via nuance 17:18:18 https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2094833/DS500012.ogg 17:19:05 Transcribed version available next Tuesday at http://simon.harper.name 17:19:38 s/Transcribed/Transcribed Stallman talk 17:20:10 JA: thanks Jan for banging our UI drum and raising profile 17:24:37 JAllan has joined #ua 17:24:47 http://symbolset.com/ 17:25:31 zakim, close item 5 17:25:31 agendum 5, Mobile Symposium Report - www.w3.org/WAI/RD/2012/mobile/, closed 17:25:33 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:25:33 1. merge 2.11.2, 3 ,4 (Action-505, Action-518) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0140.html [from JAllan] 17:25:43 zakim, take up item 2 17:25:43 agendum 2. "2.11.7 definitions of "timebase", "continuous scale, "relative time units" (Action-699, Action-644)" taken up [from JAllan] 17:26:27 MH: Sent to list but have not yet appeared - ? 17:27:07 timebase Defines a common time scale for a time-based media presentation. 17:28:46 JA: the light at the end of the tunnel is not a train about to flatten us, everyone is working hard to clear stuff up. 17:29:22 GL: by common you mean either - used to seeing - or consistant 17:29:57 MH: providing a common base across all constituents of a presentation 17:30:18 MH: example give to elucidate the point for GL 17:30:51 JR: elucidation sounds good need extra 17:31:16 GL: including the example with the defn would also be useful 17:31:29 timebase - providing a common time scale across all constituents of a time-based media presentation 17:31:59 timebase - providing a common time scale across all components of a time-based media presentation 17:32:38 timebase - defines a common time scale across all components of a time-based media presentation 17:33:06 For example, a mediaplayer will expose a single timebase for a presentation composed of individual video and audio tracks. 17:34:33 timebase - providing a common time scale for all components of a time-based media presentation 17:35:41 Timebase - providing a common time scale for all components of a time-based media presentation. For example, a media-player will expose a single timebase for a presentation composed of individual video and audio tracks, allowing users or technology to query or alter the playback rate 17:36:13 +1 17:36:30 Timebase - defining a common time scale for all components of a time-based media presentation. For example, a media-player will expose a single timebase for a presentation composed of individual video and audio tracks, allowing users or technology to query or alter the playback rate. 17:37:32 Timebase - defining a common time scale for all components of a time-based media presentation. For example, a media-player will expose a single timebase for a presentation composed of individual video and audio tracks, for instance allowing users or technology to query or alter the playback rate and position. 17:38:19 RESOLVED: Timebase - defining a common time scale for all components of a time-based media presentation. For example, a media-player will expose a single timebase for a presentation composed of individual video and audio tracks, for instance allowing users or technology to query or alter the playback rate and position. 17:38:30 Continuous scale When interacting with a time-based media presentation, a continuous scale allows user (or programmatic) action to set the active playback position to any time point on the presentation timeline. The granularity of the positioning is determined by the smallest resolvable time unit in the media timebase. 17:39:21 +1 17:39:24 +1 17:39:39 GL: clearer if 'as opposed to' included... 17:40:52 definitions for 2.11.7 Navigate Time-Based Media: 17:40:54 The user can navigate along the timebase using a continuous scale, and by relative time units within rendered audio and animations (including video and animated images) that last three or more seconds at their default playback rate. 17:41:39 RESOLVED: Continuous scale When interacting with a time-based media presentation, a continuous scale allows user (or programmatic) action to set the active playback position to any time point on the presentation timeline. The granularity of the positioning is determined by the smallest resolvable time unit in the media timebase. 17:41:56 Relative time units 17:42:06 When interacting with a time-based media presentation, a user may find it easier to move forward or backward via time intervals, such as skipping ahead by 10 seconds in a video lecture. Relative time units define time intervals for media navigation which may be preset, user configurable, and/or automatically calculated based upon media duration. 17:43:09 discussion of how relative time units are used 17:43:44 JR: if % increases which are relative, but not 3 second units 17:43:57 SH relative to current position 17:44:25 GL: isn't this about larger chunks - units larger than the minimum unit 17:44:39 JS: wouldn't be better for units to be predictable to user 17:44:52 JA: seen this both ways - or continious 17:45:14 JA: sounds like we are asking for a different word (and sc) - time units 17:45:17 time increments? 17:45:21 JR: time increaments 17:45:23 JA: Time intervals 17:45:38 JA: time increments (already in Defn) 17:46:57 JS: what is the point of having it relatively adjustable? 17:47:11 Cases as to why this is required presented 17:48:17 -sharper 17:48:57 Jeanne: I want to push back on setting it as a requirement for that number 17:49:43 Greg: using a scrollbar for that can be quite cumbersome and yet it's a fairly common need therefore recommending that there be a shortcut for that operation seems completely reasonable 17:50:29 Jan: yes continuous scale, it's also important to be able to move increments along that scale and leave it open for user agent to determine what those increments are 17:50:57 Greg: what you just described could be met by providing a scrollbar that only moves into second increments, but my thinking of the goal is a shortcut for moving in positive or negative direction by a small amount 17:51:17 Jan: they can be linked to a shortcut. If you click outside the generally jumps in increments. 17:52:18 Jim: the relative time units wasn't quite getting at -- we're looking at calling it time increments 17:52:28 Mark: what about positioning or navigational time increments for audio 17:52:39 Jeanne: Media Accessibility User Requirements does not address it. The only reference I can find is: [CNS-2] Users must be able to discover, skip, play-in-line, or directly access ancillary content structures. http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-media-accessibility-reqs-20120103/#granularity-level-control-for-structural-navigation 17:52:46 Jan: navigation time increments? 17:56:39 mark will review the definition and 2.11.7 action-699 for next week 17:56:55 zakim, close item 17:56:55 I don't understand 'close item', JAllan 17:57:13 zakim, close item 2 17:57:13 agendum 2, 2.11.7 definitions of "timebase", "continuous scale, "relative time units" (Action-699, Action-644), closed 17:57:15 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:57:15 1. merge 2.11.2, 3 ,4 (Action-505, Action-518) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0140.html [from JAllan] 17:57:34 zakim, open item 3 17:57:34 agendum 3. "2.11.11 scale and position of caption track (Action-692)" taken up [from JAllan] 17:57:56 2.11.11 Scale and position visual alternative media tracks: The user can scale and position alternative media tracks independent of the base video or audio player presentation. (Level AAA) 17:58:20 Mark: slight tweak to text -- we had only stated video before 17:58:30 scribe: KimPatch 17:59:05 Greg: eventually they'll be something beyond video and audio, but not much today 17:59:31 Jeanne: I think it's clearer with video and audio 18:00:20 Jan: scale and position 18:00:21 Jim: where you can move the captions into a different place and make them bigger or smaller 18:00:48 Mark: I will add the word visual 18:00:49 2.11.11 Scale and position visual alternative media tracks: The user can scale and position alternative visual media tracks independent of the base video or audio player presentation. (Level AAA) 18:01:32 Greg: visual alternative media to keep the phrase 18:02:17 Jan: independent is what's really important-- able to make the captions larger without making the base video larger. But what does it mean independent of audio presentation 18:02:50 Mark: captions available as a button on the audio player. I click that and the small captions window appears. I now want that to be larger than the audio player default and I want to move it elsewhere and scale it 18:03:27 Jan: audio controls -- you don't want to scale the whole thing you just want to scale this one part of it. We have some other stuff on scaling -- viewports and this is essentially a viewport. 18:03:51 JAllan has joined #ua 18:04:05 Mark: I toyed with using the term viewport and backed off of it, 18:04:51 Mark: you won't be thinking of these things as the viewports that we know and love 18:04:52 Greg: sometimes we will, but that's rare compared to the number of times it's overlaid 18:05:33 Jan: not within the same confines of the viewport -- anywhere on the page, screen, any size -- that's a high bar. The low bar is you can scale it, you can choose between 12 points and 14 point font, choose between the bottom and two pixels above the bottom... 18:05:58 Greg: letter but not the spirit -- that's true of a lot of these 18:06:13 Jan: maybe just the word independent, strong here 18:06:41 Greg: I like the word independent -- it's clear that has to be moved outside the video. Most things don't comply with that 18:06:58 Jim: bringing up testability was a good idea. Is this way too far-fetched? 18:07:56 Jim: we are saying the browser needs to do this if we are doing native HTML 5 stuff -- that we can detach the captions from the video and put them someplace else on the screen -- make them an active object you can drag around and resize. Do we have any real live implementations of this 18:08:06 Mark: I don't know of anybody who's doing it presently 18:08:33 Jim: UAAG next? 18:09:07 Users who require or can benefit from alternative media tracks in video or audio may not find the default or authored position and size of those tracks to be usable. Enabling the user to move and scale any displayed alternate media tracks (e.g. captions) allows for the displayed content to be positioned and sized to meet the needs of the user. 18:09:12 Jan: I don't want to go that far. Increase the size of captions rather than this way open thing. 18:09:49 Jan: intent really good. 18:10:08 Mark: examples 18:10:14 Justin has low vision and works in a noisy environment that makes it difficult to listen to instructional videos. When he enlarges the text of the captions to a viewable size, they block most of the video image. Justin selects an option that displays the caption track in a separate window, which he positions below the video image so the captions do not block the video image. 18:10:45 Jaime is deaf and is taking courses from on online university. She prefers to utilize ASL if it is available for online media, and a current course she is taking offers both captions and a signing avatar for the recorded lectures. The default size of the avatar window is small, making it difficult to follow the signing. The avatar also overlays a significant part of the lecture video. Jaime drags the avatar out of the video and enlarges it, so that both ar 18:11:39 so that both are equally sized and side by side. 18:12:29 Mark: fix the SC 18:12:31 Jim: we have everything else 18:14:04 Jim: at the presentation huge panel at CSUN three years ago, WGBH, Adobe, movie studios. they were showing video and caption side by side, and also the last 30 seconds of captions -- last 15 lines of dialogue and it was on a continuous scroll and other sorts of things so that sometimes the caption goes by so fast -- they were allowing instead of the normal two lines 15 or 20 lines. Those... 18:14:06 ...were some of the things I saw in addition to positioning website bottom moving around and scaling to text -- what was on the bleeding edge at that time 18:14:42 Jim: acceptance of the intent and example -- no objections 18:15:43 Resolved: accepted examples and intent and will revisit SC wording next week 18:16:11 zakim: close item 3 18:16:14 Mark: 5.1.5 18:16:16 5.1.5 Alternative content handlers: The user can select content elements and have them rendered in alternative viewers. (Level AA) 18:16:42 Intent of Success Criterion 5.1.5: When accessing media or specialized content (e.g. MathML) on the Web, users with disabilities sometimes find they have a richer or more accessible experience using a third-party application, plug-in, or extension, than using the browser's built-in facilities. In these cases they want to be able to navigate to content in their browser and then enable or activate a browser plug-in or extension to interact with the content 18:17:11 zaim: open item 4 18:17:11 Alternately, they may elect to save that content to their disk and launch it in a third- party application. 18:17:17 zakim: open item 4 18:18:05 Mark: removable media 18:18:14 Jan: save the content 18:18:42 Greg: cloud... 18:19:05 Greg: it's not entirely clear from this whether the ability to save content is required or not. It does not seem to be required 18:19:25 Mark: it depends on the content and the plug-in for what you're going to potentially view it in -- we don't know what that's going to be 18:19:55 Mark: but I understand your point 18:19:57 Jim: I don't think we want to make it a requirement I think the important thing is that they can interact with it with a third-party viewer 18:20:09 Mark: I change the intent to little bit 18:20:17 Jukka is visually impaired and a scientist whose work involves mathematical models for speech recognition. Many of the journals he reads online are beginning to include MathML to display equations. Jukka finds the native support for MathML accessibility in his Web browser to be generally compatible with his screen reader, but it can become unreliable for extremely complex equations. In those cases, Jukka selects an alternate rendering plugin via a conte 18:20:37 to his screen reader. 18:22:14 Jukka finds the native support for MathML accessibility in his Web browser to be generally compatible with his screen reader, but it can become unreliable for extremely complex equations. 18:22:48 In those cases, Jukka selects an alternate rendering plugin via a context menu to make the MathML understandable to his screen reader. 18:23:24 5.1.5 Alternative content handlers: The user can select content elements and have them rendered in alternative viewers. (Level AA) 18:24:40 Mark: I change something in intent and added preference to mathML 18:24:48 +1 18:25:47 zakim: close this item 18:27:06 Jim: next time Jeanne proposal 18:27:21 close action-653 18:27:21 ACTION-653 Rework 543...tighten up, use mathml use case closed 18:27:40 -Mark 18:28:07 -Jan 18:28:08 -Kim_Patch 18:28:08 -Greg_Lowney 18:32:51 -Jim_Allan 18:32:53 -Jeanne 18:32:54 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended 18:32:54 Attendees were Jeanne, Greg_Lowney, Jim_Allan, Mark, kford, sharper, Kim_Patch, Jan 18:32:58 rrsagent, make minutes 18:32:58 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/28-ua-minutes.html JAllan 18:34:31 regrets-mark 18:34:38 rrsagent, make minutes 18:34:38 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/28-ua-minutes.html JAllan 18:35:04 present+jan 18:35:11 rrsagent, make minutes 18:35:11 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/28-ua-minutes.html JAllan 18:36:43 present +jam 18:36:50 rrsagent, make minutes 18:36:50 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/28-ua-minutes.html JAllan 18:37:28 present -jam 18:37:34 rrsagent, make minutes 18:37:34 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/28-ua-minutes.html JAllan 18:38:06 present +jan 18:38:08 rrsagent, make minutes 18:38:08 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/28-ua-minutes.html JAllan 18:38:50 rrsagent, please part 18:38:50 I see no action items