IRC log of css on 2012-06-27

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:32:37 [RRSAgent]
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15:32:37 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:32:43 [glazou]
Zakim, this will be Style
15:32:43 [Zakim]
ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 28 minutes
15:32:49 [glazou]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:49:20 [dbaron]
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15:51:58 [oyvind]
oyvind has joined #css
15:54:00 [tpod]
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15:56:54 [dstorey]
dstorey has joined #css
15:57:11 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:57:11 [rbetts]
rbetts has joined #css
15:57:17 [florian]
florian has joined #css
15:57:17 [Zakim]
15:57:23 [glazou]
Zakim, ??P7 is me
15:57:23 [Zakim]
+glazou; got it
15:57:41 [Zakim]
15:57:50 [Zakim]
15:57:56 [glenn]
zakim, ??p8 is glenn
15:57:56 [Zakim]
+glenn; got it
15:57:57 [florian]
Zakim, I am ??P10
15:57:57 [Zakim]
+florian; got it
15:58:03 [Zakim]
15:58:13 [antonp]
antonp has joined #css
15:58:14 [Zakim]
+ +1.604.312.aaaa
15:58:27 [rbetts]
15:58:29 [Zakim]
15:58:31 [bradk]
bradk has joined #css
15:58:35 [glazou]
Zakim, ??P7 is me
15:58:35 [Zakim]
+glazou; got it
15:58:58 [rbetts]
Zakim, aaaa is me
15:58:58 [Zakim]
+rbetts; got it
15:59:08 [arron]
arron has joined #css
15:59:18 [Zakim]
+ +1.206.390.aabb
15:59:24 [stearns]
zakim, aabb is me
15:59:24 [Zakim]
+stearns; got it
15:59:35 [Zakim]
15:59:38 [Zakim]
15:59:42 [Zakim]
15:59:48 [koji]
zakim, ??p18 is me
15:59:48 [Zakim]
+koji; got it
15:59:50 [Zakim]
16:00:03 [Zakim]
16:00:18 [smfr]
smfr has joined #css
16:00:25 [Zakim]
16:00:44 [dstorey]
zakim +??P27 is me
16:00:45 [JohnJansen]
JohnJansen has joined #css
16:00:45 [Zakim]
16:00:50 [Zakim]
+ +93192aacc
16:00:58 [JohnJansen]
Zakim, Microsoft has JohnJansen
16:00:58 [Zakim]
+JohnJansen; got it
16:01:03 [antonp]
Zakim, aacc is me
16:01:03 [Zakim]
+antonp; got it
16:01:07 [smfr]
can i really not type the code before the dude stops talking?
16:01:17 [dstorey]
doesn't seem like it
16:01:19 [antonp]
seems that way :-/
16:01:23 [Zakim]
16:01:23 [smfr]
16:01:30 [glazou]
Zakim, who is noisy?
16:01:37 [Zakim]
16:01:41 [Zakim]
glazou, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: rbetts (56%), ??P27 (12%), antonp (86%)
16:01:49 [glazou]
Zakim, mute antonp
16:01:49 [Zakim]
antonp should now be muted
16:02:00 [glazou]
antonp: your phone is extremely noisy
16:02:10 [antonp]
should be better now
16:02:26 [Zakim]
16:02:52 [glazou]
Zakim, unmute antonp
16:02:53 [Zakim]
antonp should no longer be muted
16:03:08 [SteveZ]
SteveZ has joined #css
16:03:09 [dstorey]
zakim, ??P27 is me
16:03:09 [Zakim]
+dstorey; got it
16:03:40 [Zakim]
16:04:04 [glazou]
Zakim, who is here?
16:04:04 [Zakim]
On the phone I see florian, rbetts, glazou, stearns, sylvaing, ??P29, koji, bradk, dstorey, plinss, [Microsoft], antonp, fantasai, smfr, SteveZ
16:04:06 [Zakim]
[Microsoft] has JohnJansen
16:04:06 [Zakim]
On IRC I see SteveZ, JohnJansen, smfr, arron, bradk, antonp, florian, rbetts, dstorey, oyvind, dbaron, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, glenn, evanli, nimbu, jet, koji, miketaylr,
16:04:07 [Zakim]
... leaverou, drublic, Ms2ger, logbot, kennyluck, decadance, shepazu, florianr, isherman, arronei, stearns, Bert, Liam, ed, CSSWG_LogBot, dglazkov, heycam|away, macpherson,
16:04:11 [Zakim]
... gsnedders, TabAtkins, hober, trackbot, fantasai, Hixie, paul___irish, plinss, alexmog, shans, vhardy, sylvaing
16:04:14 [Zakim]
+ +1.619.846.aadd
16:04:34 [Zakim]
16:04:36 [nimbu]
oops regrets wont be joining telecon.
16:04:49 [glenn]
zakim, ??p21 is me
16:04:49 [Zakim]
+glenn; got it
16:05:18 [glenn]
16:05:32 [glenn]
16:05:35 [glazou]
ScribeNick: florian
16:05:37 [florian]
ScribeNick: florian
16:05:41 [Zakim]
16:05:55 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.253.aaee
16:06:02 [TabAtkins]
zakim, aaee is me
16:06:03 [Zakim]
+TabAtkins; got it
16:06:14 [Zakim]
- +1.619.846.aadd
16:06:18 [florian]
glazou: I'll be away for 3 weeks, and peter also on the 11th of july
16:06:33 [florian]
glazou: suggested replacement chair: Chris
16:06:46 [florian]
Topic: Transforms, transitions, animations
16:06:57 [Zakim]
+ +1.619.846.aaff
16:07:03 [hober]
Zakim, aaff is me
16:07:03 [Zakim]
+hober; got it
16:07:12 [florian]
???: on transform, update from last week:
16:07:23 [hober]
16:07:38 [florian]
???: ie and mozilla don't transform the background with attachement fixed
16:08:46 [Zakim]
+ +1.425.246.aagg
16:09:21 [florian]
florian: opera is transforming the background, and scrolling it in in parallel with the element, not parallel with the page
16:09:26 [alexmog__]
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16:09:32 [florian]
???: ie and mozilla do that too
16:09:38 [glazou]
16:10:03 [alexmog__]
zakim, last dude who called in is me
16:10:03 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'last dude who called in is me', alexmog__
16:10:19 [glazou]
Zakim, aagg is alexmog__
16:10:19 [Zakim]
+alexmog__; got it
16:10:41 [florian]
dbaron: ie and moz draw the background as if there was no transform, and then transform
16:10:53 [alexmog__]
thx daniel
16:11:00 [Zakim]
16:11:17 [florian]
???: if you use the transform to flip things upside down, the background is going to scroll backward, which is weird
16:11:26 [glazou]
16:11:27 [florian]
dbaron: they should put the background on an ancestor
16:11:53 [miketayl_r]
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16:12:00 [florian]
dbaron: it is ok, as fixed background are really meant for the root elements
16:12:35 [florian]
florianr: agree, we don't care too much about what happens on non root elements
16:13:03 [florian]
smfr: should we define it then
16:13:47 [florian]
florian: not expected use case, but will probably be used, so we should define
16:14:12 [florian]
dbaron: we should define, to avoid people depending on a behavior we wouldn't want
16:15:06 [florian]
smfr: I would prefer to define it in a way that means you don't have to repaint the background when you scroll the page
16:15:23 [florian]
dbaron, tab: sounds acceptable
16:15:37 [florian]
glazou: anything else?
16:15:59 [glazou]
ACTION smfr write a proposal about fixed background and transforms
16:15:59 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-481 - Write a proposal about fixed background and transforms [on Simon Fraser - due 2012-07-04].
16:16:04 [florian]
smfr: there is a little terminology issue, relating to containing blocs
16:16:41 [florian]
sylvaing: animation, still 46 bugs
16:17:13 [florian]
dbaron: no news on transitions, still have to go through the hard issues
16:17:55 [florian]
glazou: next call is on us Independence day, can we have a call?
16:17:59 [florian]
many: yes
16:18:02 [Rossen]
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16:18:08 [Zakim]
16:18:09 [florian]
topic: flexbox
16:18:10 [arronei]
zakim, microsoft has me
16:18:10 [Zakim]
+arronei; got it
16:18:13 [glazou]
16:18:43 [Zakim]
16:18:50 [Zakim]
16:19:05 [Rossen]
Zakim [Microsoft.aa] is me
16:19:11 [florian]
Tab: still like proposal A
16:19:40 [Rossen]
Zakim, [Microsoft.aa] is me
16:19:40 [Zakim]
+Rossen; got it
16:20:46 [Zakim]
16:21:13 [sylvaing]
florian: the reason I don't like A is that it's inconsistent
16:21:26 [sylvaing]
florian: what happens with regular elements differs from what happens to the special cased elements
16:21:27 [Zakim]
16:21:42 [sylvaing]
florian: for buttons et al. you can't turn this behavior off
16:22:22 [sylvaing]
florian: either we need an opt out and B is fine, or we don't and D works
16:22:44 [sylvaing]
tab: D is not very flexible.
16:23:05 [smfr]
16:23:09 [sylvaing]
tab: B is more work that seems necessary
16:23:23 [sylvaing]
tab: A special-cases elements because these elements are special cases
16:23:42 [sylvaing]
tab: other document languages might have such cases but there is no good way to address this without defining new concepts
16:23:43 [glazou]
Zakim, ack smfr
16:23:43 [Zakim]
I see no one on the speaker queue
16:24:04 [sylvaing]
smfr: could we make anonymous flex item containers for these elements?
16:24:27 [sylvaing]
tab: in some cases this wouldn't work well e.g. the anonymous container would be stretched but not its content
16:24:48 [glazou]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:24:48 [Zakim]
On the phone I see florian, rbetts, glazou, stearns, sylvaing, koji, bradk, dstorey, plinss, [Microsoft], antonp, smfr, SteveZ, glenn (muted), dbaron, TabAtkins, hober, alexmog__,
16:24:51 [Zakim]
... ??P8, [Microsoft.a], Rossen, fantasai
16:24:51 [Zakim]
[Microsoft] has arronei
16:24:51 [sylvaing]
glazou: many diverging opinions, it's time for a straw poll
16:24:53 [glazou]
16:25:37 [sylvaing]
florian: B or D (no objection to others)
16:25:39 [sylvaing]
rbetts: abstain
16:25:44 [sylvaing]
glazou: D
16:26:01 [sylvaing]
alan: not A
16:26:09 [sylvaing]
sylvaing: abstain
16:26:11 [hober]
16:26:17 [sylvaing]
koji: abstain
16:26:19 [sylvaing]
brad: D
16:26:22 [sylvaing]
dstorey: abstain
16:26:27 [sylvaing]
plinss: C, not A
16:26:42 [sylvaing]
rossen: c and then D, not A
16:26:45 [sylvaing]
arronei: not A
16:26:53 [sylvaing]
johnjan: C
16:27:04 [sylvaing]
antonp: prefer B or D, not C
16:27:09 [sylvaing]
smfr: abstain
16:27:09 [JohnJansen]
zakim, Microsoft has JohnJansen
16:27:09 [Zakim]
+JohnJansen; got it
16:27:22 [glenn]
16:27:22 [sylvaing]
szilles: abstain
16:27:28 [sylvaing]
dbaron: abstain
16:27:36 [sylvaing]
tab: A or D
16:27:39 [sylvaing]
hober: abstain
16:27:47 [sylvaing]
16:27:56 [fantasai]
not C
16:28:00 [sylvaing]
fantasai: not C
16:28:38 [fantasai]
can eliminate A
16:30:01 [sylvaing]
glazou: let's straw poll C vs. D
16:30:12 [sylvaing]
florian: D
16:30:17 [sylvaing]
rbetts: D
16:30:20 [sylvaing]
glazou: D
16:30:34 [sylvaing]
alan: abstain
16:30:35 [sylvaing]
sylvaing: C
16:30:45 [sylvaing]
16:30:48 [sylvaing]
16:30:51 [sylvaing]
brad: C
16:30:55 [fantasai]
16:31:04 [sylvaing]
dstorey: D
16:31:19 [sylvaing]
brad: D
16:31:49 [sylvaing]
plinss: abstain
16:31:50 [sylvaing]
rossen: C
16:31:56 [sylvaing]
arronei: C
16:32:01 [sylvaing]
john: D
16:32:03 [sylvaing]
antonp: D
16:32:03 [TabAtkins]
c as "charlie", d as "delta".
16:32:05 [sylvaing]
smfr: C
16:32:11 [glenn]
16:32:11 [sylvaing]
szilles: abstain
16:32:14 [JohnJansen]
john was C not D
16:32:16 [sylvaing]
dbaron: D
16:32:18 [sylvaing]
tab: D
16:32:22 [sylvaing]
hober: abstain
16:32:25 [sylvaing]
alexmog: C
16:32:38 [sylvaing]
fantasai: C
16:32:41 [fantasai]
alex: but ok with D
16:32:46 [fantasai]
fantasai: D
16:34:01 [fantasai]
fantasai: Several "not C"s, but no "not D"s
16:34:21 [sylvaing]
RESOLVED: Proposal D for handling of replaced elements as flexbox items
16:34:50 [glazou]
16:35:12 [fantasai]
Topic: Formatting Contexts (2.1)
16:35:18 [fantasai]
antonp: Just waiting for review from a couple people on this
16:35:29 [fantasai]
antonp: haven't heard back from dbaron
16:35:42 [fantasai]
florian: resolution was accept unless dbaron says no
16:36:19 [dbaron]
dbaron: you should just go ahead without me
16:36:22 [fantasai]
antonp: Rossen replied on the list, haven't heard back after response
16:36:59 [fantasai]
Topic: vmax
16:37:00 [glazou]
16:38:03 [fantasai]
fantasai: We have vmin, request was to add vmax
16:38:26 [tantek]
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16:38:52 [fantasai]
?: Are their use cases?
16:39:01 [fantasai]
tab: person posting didn't give a precise example, but did say there were some
16:39:08 [hober]
16:39:11 [fantasai]
florian: if you think of it as cover vs contain, makes sense
16:39:16 [fantasai]
tab: Once you have vmin, vmax is trivial
16:39:40 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Add vmax
16:40:32 [fantasai]
16:40:39 [glazou]
s/german/benjamin ...
16:42:46 [fantasai]
florian: calc() inside calc() makes sense to me
16:43:00 [glazou]
if we are fossils, we need chalk()
16:43:13 [fantasai]
florian: unless we want to open debate of whether calc exists at all and just use bare parens
16:43:26 [fantasai]
glazou: Are there any objections to calc() inside calc()?
16:43:29 [fantasai]
16:43:34 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: calc inside calc allowed
16:44:30 [fantasai]
fantasai: the other issue that's open is precision
16:45:04 [fantasai]
16:45:06 [krijnh]
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16:46:56 [fantasai]
fantasai ...
16:48:18 [fantasai]
Topic: CSS3 Background
16:48:25 [fantasai]
fantasai: wanted to update the CR, dbaron had an issue on animations line
16:48:39 [fantasai]
fantasai: seems like a lot of mostly redundant info, was wondering if we can keep that in the transitions spec
16:48:46 [fantasai]
dbaron: yeah, can probably keep in transitions spec
16:49:01 [fantasai]
florian: There are a number of background properties that take a list
16:49:13 [fantasai]
florian: if there are fewer than images, then repeat the list
16:49:24 [fantasai]
florian: computed value is as specified
16:49:31 [nimbu]
hober + sylvaing +++
16:49:33 [fantasai]
florian: ... trigger a transition
16:49:50 [fantasai]
florian: does adding to the list trigger a transition, even if no layers are added?
16:49:58 [fantasai]
Tab: It would be a null transition
16:50:02 [fantasai]
florian: would send out events, though
16:50:34 [fantasai]
florian: Seems more natural for computed value to reflect the value we're using in theory
16:50:42 [fantasai]
fantasai: would you truncate the specified value if it's too long then?
16:50:44 [fantasai]
florian: yes?
16:50:53 [glazou]
nimbu: don't tempt him :)
16:50:55 [fantasai]
dbaron: i think this is too late to change it
16:51:04 [fantasai]
dbaron: we do this computed value line across 3-4 specs now
16:51:07 [fantasai]
dbaron: too late to change them
16:51:46 [fantasai]
fantasai: if no one has other changes to make, suggest publishing update to CR
16:51:50 [fantasai]
florian: Another question...
16:52:09 [fantasai]
florian: background-position, syntax where you say 'right 10px' is equivalent to 'calc(100%-10px)'
16:52:16 [fantasai]
florian: probably too late to change that though
16:52:37 [fantasai]
florian: Mozilla shows that in its computed value
16:52:41 [fantasai]
fantasai: that's incorrect per spec...
16:52:55 [nimbu]
glazou: :))
16:52:55 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: publish updated CR of CSS3 Backgrounds
16:53:07 [fantasai]
Topic: 2.1
16:53:12 [fantasai]
Rossen: Just read anton's reply
16:53:28 [fantasai]
Rossen: My issues with the proposal was the fact that when you read 2.1 sections 9.2.1
16:53:43 [Rossen]
16:54:04 [fantasai]
Rossen: talks about when an inline level box is created
16:54:15 [Rossen]
16:54:17 [fantasai]
rossen: inline-table and inline-block generate inline-level boxes, which participate in inline formatting context
16:54:41 [fantasai]
rossen: we have 9.... that talks about inline formatting context, but doesn't say what establishes it
16:54:54 [fantasai]
rossen: neither nor 9.2.2
16:55:10 [fantasai]
rossen: Because of this I can easily deduce that an inline formatting context can be created by an inline non-replaced element
16:55:12 [glazou]
16:55:19 [fantasai]
rossen: issues I raised would become a problem
16:55:33 [fantasai]
rossen: ok with proposed definitions, as long as we take an action to clarific exactly what you said
16:55:41 [fantasai]
rossen: and state when an inline formatting context is created
16:56:56 [fantasai]
rossen: want to be assured that an inline elements don't establish an inline formatting context
16:57:25 [dbaron]
fantasai: "An inline box is one that is both inline-level and whose contents participate in its containing inline formatting context." (9.2.2)
16:57:51 [fantasai]
rossen: if we add to beginning of inline formatting context "inline formatting context is established by ...." then there will be no ambiguity
16:58:17 [fantasai]
antonp: "A block container box either contains only block-level boxes or establishes an inline formatting context and thus contains only inline-level boxes."
16:58:36 [fantasai]
antonp: before nothing said what establishes an inline formatting contexts
16:58:53 [fantasai]
antonp: I understand your concern that it's not clear that an inline box does /not/ establish an IFC
16:59:04 [fantasai]
rossen: if that's clarified, then all my concerns are invalid
16:59:20 [fantasai]
rossen: so if we're ok with adding this clarification, then I don't have a problem
16:59:41 [fantasai]
rossen: there's a behavior difference...
16:59:47 [fantasai]
rossen: it appears that Gecko has overflow for table
17:00:04 [fantasai]
antonp: according to the email, behavior is 50/50
17:00:09 [fantasai]
antonp: among 4 key implementations
17:00:55 [fantasai]
antonp: √łyvind sent an email that there's a difference as to whether overflow is applied to table box or table wrapper box
17:01:14 [fantasai]
fantasai: so do we accept the edits or no?
17:01:17 [fantasai]
rossen: I'm ok with this
17:01:24 [fantasai]
rossen: concerned about change of behavior in implementations
17:01:30 [fantasai]
antonp: Isn't it the case that IE won't have to change?
17:01:40 [fantasai]
rossen: IE as of 9 and 10 will have that change
17:01:52 [smfr]
17:01:53 [fantasai]
rossen: I guess we didn't see any records that this is breaking anything when we changed it
17:01:57 [Zakim]
17:02:20 [fantasai]
florian: if we have implementations on either side, defining behavior of table is something we should do anyway
17:02:31 [fantasai]
rossen: only question is, do we want scrollers on tables or no?
17:02:47 [fantasai]
rossen: should we accept this, then?
17:02:56 [fantasai]
rossen: anyone object to overflow on tables/
17:03:03 [fantasai]
rossen: curious about other implementers
17:03:06 [Zakim]
17:03:12 [fantasai]
dbaron and florian don't know
17:03:14 [dbaron]
dbaron: I'd need to look into it.
17:03:31 [fantasai]
tab: I know someone does overflow on <tbody>
17:03:43 [fantasai]
dbaron: I believe we stopped doing that, but I'm not sure
17:03:57 [Zakim]
17:04:09 [fantasai]
rossen: easy enough to call it out explicitly as either yay or nay wrt overflow
17:04:17 [fantasai]
rossen: my proposal is to go with majority of implementations
17:04:18 [Zakim]
17:04:32 [fantasai]
fantasai: so we have an action item to figure out what that is
17:04:57 [fantasai]
glazou: ok, will deal with that
17:05:10 [fantasai]
17:05:11 [Zakim]
17:05:12 [fantasai]
Meeting closed.
17:05:12 [Zakim]
17:05:14 [Zakim]
17:05:16 [antonp]
antonp has left #css
17:05:16 [Zakim]
17:05:17 [Zakim]
17:05:17 [Zakim]
17:05:19 [Zakim]
17:05:19 [Zakim]
17:05:19 [Zakim]
17:05:20 [Zakim]
17:05:21 [Zakim]
17:05:23 [Zakim]
17:05:25 [Zakim]
17:05:27 [Zakim]
17:05:29 [Zakim]
17:05:31 [florian]
florian has left #css
17:05:38 [Zakim]
17:05:40 [Zakim]
17:05:45 [Zakim]
17:05:46 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:05:46 [Zakim]
Attendees were glazou, glenn, florian, +1.604.312.aaaa, rbetts, +1.206.390.aabb, stearns, sylvaing, koji, bradk, plinss, +93192aacc, JohnJansen, antonp, fantasai, smfr, SteveZ,
17:05:46 [Zakim]
... dstorey, +1.619.846.aadd, dbaron, +1.650.253.aaee, TabAtkins, +1.619.846.aaff, hober, +1.425.246.aagg, alexmog__, [Microsoft], arronei, Rossen
17:06:16 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: so... plan for tomorrow, finish css3-values, and work on flexbox?
17:06:30 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: Yup.
17:07:21 [fantasai]
arronei: you wrote a testcase already
17:08:43 [tantek]
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17:08:43 [Ms2ger]
Yay, test cases
17:10:42 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: Also we can talk a little about <dialog> positioning, since you have Opinions on it and we have someone wanting to implement.
17:15:16 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: I don't have Opinions on it, I just have no idea what it's trying to do
17:20:20 [evanli]
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17:22:54 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: That counts.
17:23:05 [fantasai]
As an opinion? no
17:23:50 [fantasai]
shepazu: Is Fullscreen getting published tomorrow?
17:24:22 [shepazu]
working on it right now, actually
17:24:30 [shepazu]
it should be published tomorrow
17:27:55 [fantasai]
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17:43:39 [tantek]
shepazu, fantasai - that's great to hear - thanks!
17:48:20 [shepazu]
fantasai: scratch that, it may have to wait until Tuesday
17:48:32 [shepazu]
I'm trying to get our ducks in a row with ArtB
17:48:50 [shepazu]
I'l try for tomorrow, but it may have to wait
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21:50:34 [fantasai]
nimbu: I can't speak for w3cmemes, but it will be in the minutes :)
21:58:41 [hober]
fantasai nimbu: did w3cmemes miss a meme from this call? Two got posted...
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