15:32:37 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #css
15:32:37 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/06/27-css-irc
15:32:43 <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
15:32:43 <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 28 minutes
15:32:49 <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:49:20 <dbaron> dbaron has joined #css
15:51:58 <oyvind> oyvind has joined #css
15:54:00 <tpod> tpod has joined #css
15:56:54 <dstorey> dstorey has joined #css
15:57:11 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:57:11 <rbetts> rbetts has joined #css
15:57:17 <florian> florian has joined #css
15:57:17 <Zakim> +??P7
15:57:23 <glazou> Zakim, ??P7 is me
15:57:23 <Zakim> +glazou; got it
15:57:41 <Zakim> +??P8
15:57:50 <Zakim> +??P10
15:57:56 <glenn> zakim, ??p8 is glenn
15:57:56 <Zakim> +glenn; got it
15:57:57 <florian> Zakim, I am ??P10
15:57:57 <Zakim> +florian; got it
15:58:03 <Zakim> -glazou
15:58:13 <antonp> antonp has joined #css
15:58:14 <Zakim> + +1.604.312.aaaa
15:58:27 <rbetts> +aaaa
15:58:29 <Zakim> +??P7
15:58:31 <bradk> bradk has joined #css
15:58:35 <glazou> Zakim, ??P7 is me
15:58:35 <Zakim> +glazou; got it
15:58:58 <rbetts> Zakim, aaaa is me
15:58:58 <Zakim> +rbetts; got it
15:59:08 <arron> arron has joined #css
15:59:18 <Zakim> + +1.206.390.aabb
15:59:24 <stearns> zakim, aabb is me
15:59:24 <Zakim> +stearns; got it
15:59:35 <Zakim> +sylvaing
15:59:38 <Zakim> +??P29
15:59:42 <Zakim> +??P18
15:59:48 <koji> zakim, ??p18 is me
15:59:48 <Zakim> +koji; got it
15:59:50 <Zakim> +bradk
16:00:03 <Zakim> +??P27
16:00:18 <smfr> smfr has joined #css
16:00:25 <Zakim> +plinss
16:00:44 <dstorey> zakim +??P27 is me
16:00:45 <JohnJansen> JohnJansen has joined #css
16:00:45 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:00:50 <Zakim> + +93192aacc
16:00:58 <JohnJansen> Zakim, Microsoft has JohnJansen
16:00:58 <Zakim> +JohnJansen; got it
16:01:03 <antonp> Zakim, aacc is me
16:01:03 <Zakim> +antonp; got it
16:01:07 <smfr> can i really not type the code before the dude stops talking?
16:01:17 <dstorey> doesn't seem like it
16:01:19 <antonp> seems that way :-/
16:01:23 <Zakim> +fantasai
16:01:23 <smfr> sucky
16:01:30 <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
16:01:37 <Zakim> +smfr
16:01:41 <Zakim> glazou, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: rbetts (56%), ??P27 (12%), antonp (86%)
16:01:49 <glazou> Zakim, mute antonp 
16:01:49 <Zakim> antonp should now be muted
16:02:00 <glazou> antonp: your phone is extremely noisy
16:02:10 <antonp> should be better now
16:02:26 <Zakim> +SteveZ
16:02:52 <glazou> Zakim, unmute antonp 
16:02:53 <Zakim> antonp should no longer be muted
16:03:08 <SteveZ> SteveZ has joined #css
16:03:09 <dstorey> zakim, ??P27 is me
16:03:09 <Zakim> +dstorey; got it
16:03:40 <Zakim> -glenn
16:04:04 <glazou> Zakim, who is here?
16:04:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see florian, rbetts, glazou, stearns, sylvaing, ??P29, koji, bradk, dstorey, plinss, [Microsoft], antonp, fantasai, smfr, SteveZ
16:04:06 <Zakim> [Microsoft] has JohnJansen
16:04:06 <Zakim> On IRC I see SteveZ, JohnJansen, smfr, arron, bradk, antonp, florian, rbetts, dstorey, oyvind, dbaron, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, glenn, evanli, nimbu, jet, koji, miketaylr,
16:04:07 <Zakim> ... leaverou, drublic, Ms2ger, logbot, kennyluck, decadance, shepazu, florianr, isherman, arronei, stearns, Bert, Liam, ed, CSSWG_LogBot, dglazkov, heycam|away, macpherson,
16:04:11 <Zakim> ... gsnedders, TabAtkins, hober, trackbot, fantasai, Hixie, paul___irish, plinss, alexmog, shans, vhardy, sylvaing
16:04:14 <Zakim> + +1.619.846.aadd
16:04:34 <Zakim> +??P21
16:04:36 <nimbu> oops regrets wont be joining telecon.
16:04:49 <glenn> zakim, ??p21 is me
16:04:49 <Zakim> +glenn; got it
16:05:18 <glenn> i
16:05:32 <glenn> s/i//
16:05:35 <glazou> ScribeNick: florian 
16:05:37 <florian> ScribeNick: florian
16:05:41 <Zakim> +dbaron
16:05:55 <Zakim> + +1.650.253.aaee
16:06:02 <TabAtkins> zakim, aaee is me
16:06:03 <Zakim> +TabAtkins; got it
16:06:14 <Zakim> - +1.619.846.aadd
16:06:18 <florian> glazou: I'll be away for 3 weeks, and peter also on the 11th of july
16:06:33 <florian> glazou: suggested replacement chair: Chris
16:06:46 <florian> Topic: Transforms, transitions, animations
16:06:57 <Zakim> + +1.619.846.aaff
16:07:03 <hober> Zakim, aaff is me
16:07:03 <Zakim> +hober; got it
16:07:12 <florian> ???: on transform, update from last week:
16:07:23 <hober> s/???/smfr/
16:07:38 <florian> ???: ie and mozilla don't transform the background with attachement fixed
16:08:46 <Zakim> + +1.425.246.aagg
16:09:21 <florian> florian: opera is transforming the background, and scrolling it in in parallel with the element, not parallel with the page
16:09:26 <alexmog__> alexmog__ has joined #css
16:09:32 <florian> ???: ie and mozilla do that too
16:09:38 <glazou> s/???/smfr
16:10:03 <alexmog__> zakim, last dude who called in is me
16:10:03 <Zakim> I don't understand 'last dude who called in is me', alexmog__
16:10:19 <glazou> Zakim, aagg is alexmog__ 
16:10:19 <Zakim> +alexmog__; got it
16:10:41 <florian> dbaron: ie and moz draw the background as if there was no transform, and then transform
16:10:53 <alexmog__> thx daniel
16:11:00 <Zakim> +??P8
16:11:17 <florian> ???: if you use the transform to flip things upside down, the background is going to scroll backward, which is weird
16:11:26 <glazou> s/???/smfr
16:11:27 <florian> dbaron: they should put the background on an ancestor
16:11:53 <miketayl_r> miketayl_r has joined #css
16:12:00 <florian> dbaron: it is ok, as fixed background are really meant for the root elements
16:12:35 <florian> florianr: agree, we don't care too much about what happens on non root elements
16:13:03 <florian> smfr: should we define it then
16:13:47 <florian> florian: not expected use case, but will probably be used, so we should define
16:14:12 <florian> dbaron: we should define, to avoid people depending on a behavior we wouldn't want
16:15:06 <florian> smfr: I would prefer to define it in a way that means you don't have to  repaint the background when you scroll the page
16:15:23 <florian> dbaron, tab: sounds acceptable
16:15:37 <florian> glazou: anything else?
16:15:59 <glazou> ACTION smfr write a proposal about fixed background and transforms
16:15:59 <trackbot> Created ACTION-481 - Write a proposal about fixed background and transforms [on Simon Fraser - due 2012-07-04].
16:16:04 <florian> smfr: there is a little terminology issue, relating to containing blocs
16:16:41 <florian> sylvaing: animation, still 46 bugs
16:17:13 <florian> dbaron: no news on transitions, still have to go through the hard issues
16:17:55 <florian> glazou: next call is on us Independence day, can we have a call?
16:17:59 <florian> many: yes
16:18:02 <Rossen> Rossen has joined #css
16:18:08 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
16:18:09 <florian> topic: flexbox
16:18:10 <arronei> zakim, microsoft has me
16:18:10 <Zakim> +arronei; got it
16:18:13 <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/topics/css3-flexbox-flexbox-replaced-children
16:18:43 <Zakim> -??P29
16:18:50 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.aa]
16:19:05 <Rossen> Zakim [Microsoft.aa] is me
16:19:11 <florian> Tab: still like proposal A
16:19:40 <Rossen> Zakim, [Microsoft.aa] is me
16:19:40 <Zakim> +Rossen; got it
16:20:46 <Zakim> -fantasai
16:21:13 <sylvaing> florian: the reason I don't like A is that it's inconsistent
16:21:26 <sylvaing> florian: what happens with regular elements differs from what happens to the special cased elements
16:21:27 <Zakim> +fantasai
16:21:42 <sylvaing> florian: for buttons et al. you can't turn this behavior off
16:22:22 <sylvaing> florian: either we need an opt out and B is fine, or we don't and D works
16:22:44 <sylvaing> tab: D is not very flexible. 
16:23:05 <smfr> q+
16:23:09 <sylvaing> tab: B is more work that seems necessary
16:23:23 <sylvaing> tab: A special-cases elements because these elements are special cases
16:23:42 <sylvaing> tab: other document languages might have such cases but there is no good way to address this without defining new concepts
16:23:43 <glazou> Zakim, ack smfr 
16:23:43 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
16:24:04 <sylvaing> smfr: could we make anonymous flex item containers for these elements?
16:24:27 <sylvaing> tab: in some cases this wouldn't work well e.g. the anonymous container would be stretched but not its content
16:24:48 <glazou> Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:24:48 <Zakim> On the phone I see florian, rbetts, glazou, stearns, sylvaing, koji, bradk, dstorey, plinss, [Microsoft], antonp, smfr, SteveZ, glenn (muted), dbaron, TabAtkins, hober, alexmog__,
16:24:51 <Zakim> ... ??P8, [Microsoft.a], Rossen, fantasai
16:24:51 <Zakim> [Microsoft] has arronei
16:24:51 <sylvaing> glazou: many diverging opinions, it's time for a straw poll
16:24:53 <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/topics/css3-flexbox-flexbox-replaced-children
16:25:37 <sylvaing> florian: B or D (no objection to others)
16:25:39 <sylvaing> rbetts: abstain
16:25:44 <sylvaing> glazou: D
16:26:01 <sylvaing> alan: not A
16:26:09 <sylvaing> sylvaing: abstain
16:26:11 <hober> s/alan/stearns/
16:26:17 <sylvaing> koji: abstain
16:26:19 <sylvaing> brad: D
16:26:22 <sylvaing> dstorey: abstain
16:26:27 <sylvaing> plinss: C, not A
16:26:42 <sylvaing> rossen: c and then D, not A
16:26:45 <sylvaing> arronei: not A
16:26:53 <sylvaing> johnjan: C
16:27:04 <sylvaing> antonp: prefer B or D, not C
16:27:09 <sylvaing> smfr: abstain
16:27:09 <JohnJansen> zakim, Microsoft has JohnJansen
16:27:09 <Zakim> +JohnJansen; got it
16:27:22 <glenn> abstain
16:27:22 <sylvaing> szilles: abstain
16:27:28 <sylvaing> dbaron: abstain
16:27:36 <sylvaing> tab: A or D
16:27:39 <sylvaing> hober: abstain
16:27:47 <sylvaing> fantasai
16:27:56 <fantasai> not C
16:28:00 <sylvaing> fantasai: not C
16:28:38 <fantasai> can eliminate A
16:30:01 <sylvaing> glazou: let's straw poll C vs. D
16:30:12 <sylvaing> florian: D
16:30:17 <sylvaing> rbetts: D
16:30:20 <sylvaing> glazou: D
16:30:34 <sylvaing> alan: abstain
16:30:35 <sylvaing> sylvaing: C
16:30:45 <sylvaing> koji
16:30:48 <sylvaing> abstain
16:30:51 <sylvaing> brad: C
16:30:55 <fantasai> s/C/D
16:31:04 <sylvaing> dstorey: D
16:31:19 <sylvaing> brad: D
16:31:49 <sylvaing> plinss: abstain
16:31:50 <sylvaing> rossen: C
16:31:56 <sylvaing> arronei: C
16:32:01 <sylvaing> john: D
16:32:03 <sylvaing> antonp: D
16:32:03 <TabAtkins> c as "charlie", d as "delta".
16:32:05 <sylvaing> smfr: C
16:32:11 <glenn> abstain
16:32:11 <sylvaing> szilles: abstain
16:32:14 <JohnJansen> john was C not D
16:32:16 <sylvaing> dbaron: D
16:32:18 <sylvaing> tab: D
16:32:22 <sylvaing> hober: abstain
16:32:25 <sylvaing> alexmog: C
16:32:38 <sylvaing> fantasai: C
16:32:41 <fantasai> alex: but ok with D
16:32:46 <fantasai> fantasai: D
16:34:01 <fantasai> fantasai: Several "not C"s, but no "not D"s
16:34:21 <sylvaing> RESOLVED: Proposal D for handling of replaced elements as flexbox items
16:34:50 <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/topics/overflow-formatting-context
16:35:12 <fantasai> Topic: Formatting Contexts (2.1)
16:35:18 <fantasai> antonp: Just waiting for review from a couple people on this
16:35:29 <fantasai> antonp: haven't heard back from dbaron
16:35:42 <fantasai> florian: resolution was accept unless dbaron says no
16:36:19 <dbaron> dbaron: you should just go ahead without me
16:36:22 <fantasai> antonp: Rossen replied on the list, haven't heard back after response
16:36:59 <fantasai> Topic: vmax
16:37:00 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012May/1198.html
16:38:03 <fantasai> fantasai: We have vmin, request was to add vmax
16:38:26 <tantek> tantek has joined #css
16:38:52 <fantasai> ?: Are their use cases?
16:39:01 <fantasai> tab: person posting didn't give a precise example, but did say there were some
16:39:08 <hober> s/?/hober/
16:39:11 <fantasai> florian: if you think of it as cover vs contain, makes sense
16:39:16 <fantasai> tab: Once you have vmin, vmax is trivial
16:39:40 <fantasai> RESOLVED: Add vmax
16:40:32 <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Jun/0446.html
16:40:39 <glazou> s/german/benjamin ...
16:42:46 <fantasai> florian: calc() inside calc() makes sense to me
16:43:00 <glazou> if we are fossils, we need chalk()
16:43:13 <fantasai> florian: unless we want to open debate of whether calc exists at all and just use bare parens
16:43:26 <fantasai> glazou: Are there any objections to calc() inside calc()?
16:43:29 <fantasai> silence
16:43:34 <fantasai> RESOLVED: calc inside calc allowed
16:44:30 <fantasai> fantasai: the other issue that's open is precision
16:45:04 <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-values/issues-lc-2012#issue-25
16:45:06 <krijnh> krijnh has joined #css
16:46:56 <fantasai> fantasai ...
16:48:18 <fantasai> Topic: CSS3 Background
16:48:25 <fantasai> fantasai: wanted to update the CR, dbaron had an issue on animations line
16:48:39 <fantasai> fantasai: seems like a lot of mostly redundant info, was wondering if we can keep that in the transitions spec
16:48:46 <fantasai> dbaron: yeah, can probably keep in transitions spec
16:49:01 <fantasai> florian: There are a number of background properties that take a list
16:49:13 <fantasai> florian: if there are fewer than images, then repeat the list
16:49:24 <fantasai> florian: computed value is as specified
16:49:31 <nimbu> hober + sylvaing +++
16:49:33 <fantasai> florian: ... trigger a transition
16:49:50 <fantasai> florian: does adding to the list trigger a transition, even if no layers are added?
16:49:58 <fantasai> Tab: It would be a null transition
16:50:02 <fantasai> florian: would send out events, though
16:50:34 <fantasai> florian: Seems more natural for computed value to reflect the value we're using in theory
16:50:42 <fantasai> fantasai: would you truncate the specified value if it's too long then?
16:50:44 <fantasai> florian: yes?
16:50:53 <glazou> nimbu: don't tempt him :)
16:50:55 <fantasai> dbaron: i think this is too late to change it
16:51:04 <fantasai> dbaron: we do this computed value line across 3-4 specs now
16:51:07 <fantasai> dbaron: too late to change them
16:51:46 <fantasai> fantasai: if no one has other changes to make, suggest publishing update to CR
16:51:50 <fantasai> florian: Another question... 
16:52:09 <fantasai> florian: background-position, syntax where you say 'right 10px' is equivalent to 'calc(100%-10px)'
16:52:16 <fantasai> florian: probably too late to change that though
16:52:37 <fantasai> florian: Mozilla shows that in its computed value
16:52:41 <fantasai> fantasai: that's incorrect per spec...
16:52:55 <nimbu> glazou: :))
16:52:55 <fantasai> RESOLVED: publish updated CR of CSS3 Backgrounds
16:53:07 <fantasai> Topic: 2.1
16:53:12 <fantasai> Rossen: Just read anton's reply
16:53:28 <fantasai> Rossen: My issues with the proposal was the fact that when you read 2.1 sections 9.2.1
16:53:43 <Rossen> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visuren.html#inline-boxes
16:54:04 <fantasai> Rossen: talks about when an inline level box is created
16:54:15 <Rossen> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visuren.html#inline-formatting
16:54:17 <fantasai> rossen: inline-table and inline-block generate inline-level boxes, which participate in inline formatting context
16:54:41 <fantasai> rossen: we have 9.... that talks about inline formatting context, but doesn't say what establishes it
16:54:54 <fantasai> rossen: neither 2.9.4.2 nor 9.2.2
16:55:10 <fantasai> rossen: Because of this I can easily deduce that an inline formatting context can be created by an inline non-replaced element
16:55:12 <glazou> s/2.9.4.2/9.4.2
16:55:19 <fantasai> rossen: issues I raised would become a problem
16:55:33 <fantasai> rossen: ok with proposed definitions, as long as we take an action to clarific exactly what you said
16:55:41 <fantasai> rossen: and state when an inline formatting context is created
16:56:56 <fantasai> rossen: want to be assured that an inline elements don't establish an inline formatting context
16:57:25 <dbaron> fantasai: "An inline box is one that is both inline-level and whose contents participate in its containing inline formatting context." (9.2.2)
16:57:51 <fantasai> rossen: if we add to beginning of inline formatting context "inline formatting context is established by ...." then there will be no ambiguity
16:58:17 <fantasai> antonp: "A block container box either contains only block-level boxes or establishes an inline formatting context and thus contains only inline-level boxes."
16:58:36 <fantasai> antonp: before nothing said what establishes an inline formatting contexts
16:58:53 <fantasai> antonp: I understand your concern that it's not clear that an inline box does /not/ establish an IFC
16:59:04 <fantasai> rossen: if that's clarified, then all my concerns are invalid
16:59:20 <fantasai> rossen: so if we're ok with adding this clarification, then I don't have a problem 
16:59:41 <fantasai> rossen: there's a behavior difference...
16:59:47 <fantasai> rossen: it appears that Gecko has overflow for table
17:00:04 <fantasai> antonp: according to the email, behavior is 50/50
17:00:09 <fantasai> antonp: among 4 key implementations
17:00:55 <fantasai> antonp: øyvind sent an email that there's a difference as to whether overflow is applied to table box or table wrapper box
17:01:14 <fantasai> fantasai: so do we accept the edits or no?
17:01:17 <fantasai> rossen: I'm ok with this
17:01:24 <fantasai> rossen: concerned about change of behavior in implementations
17:01:30 <fantasai> antonp: Isn't it the case that IE won't have to change?
17:01:40 <fantasai> rossen: IE as of 9 and 10 will have that change
17:01:52 <smfr> gtg
17:01:53 <fantasai> rossen: I guess we didn't see any records that this is breaking anything when we changed it
17:01:57 <Zakim> -smfr
17:02:20 <fantasai> florian: if we have implementations on either side, defining behavior of table is something we should do anyway
17:02:31 <fantasai> rossen: only question is, do we want scrollers on tables or no?
17:02:47 <fantasai> rossen: should we accept this, then?
17:02:56 <fantasai> rossen: anyone object to overflow on tables/
17:03:03 <fantasai> rossen: curious about other implementers
17:03:06 <Zakim> -alexmog__
17:03:12 <fantasai> dbaron and florian don't know
17:03:14 <dbaron> dbaron: I'd need to look into it.
17:03:31 <fantasai> tab: I know someone does overflow on <tbody>
17:03:43 <fantasai> dbaron: I believe we stopped doing that, but I'm not sure
17:03:57 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
17:04:09 <fantasai> rossen: easy enough to call it out explicitly as either yay or nay wrt overflow
17:04:17 <fantasai> rossen: my proposal is to go with majority of implementations
17:04:18 <Zakim> -dbaron
17:04:32 <fantasai> fantasai: so we have an action item to figure out what that is
17:04:57 <fantasai> glazou: ok, will deal with that http://test.csswg.org/shepherd/testcase/overflow-applies-to-013/
17:05:10 <fantasai> later
17:05:11 <Zakim> -hober
17:05:12 <fantasai> Meeting closed.
17:05:12 <Zakim> -rbetts
17:05:14 <Zakim> -glazou
17:05:16 <antonp> antonp has left #css
17:05:16 <Zakim> -koji
17:05:17 <Zakim> -SteveZ
17:05:17 <Zakim> -plinss
17:05:19 <Zakim> -Rossen
17:05:19 <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
17:05:19 <Zakim> -glenn
17:05:20 <Zakim> -dstorey
17:05:21 <Zakim> -stearns
17:05:23 <Zakim> -antonp
17:05:25 <Zakim> -TabAtkins
17:05:27 <Zakim> -sylvaing
17:05:29 <Zakim> -bradk
17:05:31 <florian> florian has left #css
17:05:38 <Zakim> -fantasai
17:05:40 <Zakim> -??P8
17:05:45 <Zakim> -florian
17:05:46 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:05:46 <Zakim> Attendees were glazou, glenn, florian, +1.604.312.aaaa, rbetts, +1.206.390.aabb, stearns, sylvaing, koji, bradk, plinss, +93192aacc, JohnJansen, antonp, fantasai, smfr, SteveZ,
17:05:46 <Zakim> ... dstorey, +1.619.846.aadd, dbaron, +1.650.253.aaee, TabAtkins, +1.619.846.aaff, hober, +1.425.246.aagg, alexmog__, [Microsoft], arronei, Rossen
17:06:16 <fantasai> TabAtkins: so... plan for tomorrow, finish css3-values, and work on flexbox?
17:06:30 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Yup.
17:07:21 <fantasai> arronei: you wrote a testcase already
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17:08:43 <Ms2ger> Yay, test cases
17:10:42 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Also we can talk a little about <dialog> positioning, since you have Opinions on it and we have someone wanting to implement.
17:15:16 <fantasai> TabAtkins: I don't have Opinions on it, I just have no idea what it's trying to do
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17:22:54 <TabAtkins> fantasai: That counts.
17:23:05 <fantasai> As an opinion? no
17:23:50 <fantasai> shepazu: Is Fullscreen getting published tomorrow?
17:24:22 <shepazu> working on it right now, actually
17:24:30 <shepazu> it should be published tomorrow
17:27:55 <fantasai> cool
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17:43:39 <tantek> shepazu, fantasai - that's great to hear - thanks!
17:48:20 <shepazu> fantasai: scratch that, it may have to wait until Tuesday
17:48:32 <shepazu> I'm trying to get our ducks in a row with ArtB
17:48:50 <shepazu> I'l try for tomorrow, but it may have to wait
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21:50:34 <fantasai> nimbu: I can't speak for w3cmemes, but it will be in the minutes :)
21:58:41 <hober> fantasai nimbu: did w3cmemes miss a meme from this call? Two got posted...
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