13:58:18 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #sparql
13:58:18 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/06/26-sparql-irc
13:58:20 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
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13:58:22 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 77277
13:58:22 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
13:58:23 <trackbot> Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference
13:58:23 <trackbot> Date: 26 June 2012
13:58:25 <LeeF> zakim, this will be SPARQL
13:58:25 <Zakim> ok, LeeF; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
13:58:27 <LeeF> Chair: LeeF
13:58:29 <LeeF> regrets: chimezie
13:59:25 <LeeF> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2012AprJun/0255.html
13:59:32 <LeeF> regrets: chimezie, carlos
13:59:43 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started
13:59:50 <Zakim> +kasei
14:00:37 <Zakim> +Lee_Feigenbaum
14:00:40 <Zakim> +sandro
14:00:58 <LeeF> zakim, Lee_Feigenbaum is me
14:00:58 <Zakim> +LeeF; got it
14:01:01 <MattPerry> MattPerry has joined #sparql
14:01:41 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aaaa
14:01:57 <MattPerry> zakim, aaaa is me
14:01:57 <Zakim> +MattPerry; got it
14:04:36 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has joined #sparql
14:04:47 <Zakim> +??P16
14:04:54 <AndyS> zakim, ??P16 is me
14:04:54 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
14:05:39 <Zakim> +pgearon
14:06:02 <Arthur> Arthur has joined #sparql
14:06:09 <AndyS> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:06:09 <Zakim> On the phone I see kasei, LeeF, sandro, MattPerry, AndyS, pgearon
14:06:39 <Zakim> + +49.897.aabb
14:06:47 <AxelPolleres> can scribe
14:06:55 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, aabb is me
14:06:55 <Zakim> +AxelPolleres; got it
14:07:00 <AxelPolleres> scribe: AxelPolleres
14:07:01 <Zakim> +Arthur
14:07:22 <LeeF> topic: Admin
14:07:53 <LeeF> Next meeting is Tuesday, 2012 Jul 3
14:08:19 <LeeF> regrets next week: pgearon?
14:08:24 <AxelPolleres> lee: regrets anyone fornext week?
14:08:24 <AxelPolleres> paul: possible regrets for next week
14:08:41 <LeeF> topic: Approve new MINUS tests
14:09:25 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Approve :full-minuend and :partial-minuend
14:09:56 <AxelPolleres> must be somewheree here: www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/tests/data-sparql11/
14:10:52 <kasei> I pass them, but haven't actually looked at the tests...
14:10:54 <AxelPolleres> www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/tests/data-sparql11/negation
14:11:18 <AndyS> +1
14:11:20 <pgearon> seconded
14:11:23 <pgearon> +!
14:11:28 <pgearon> +1
14:11:37 <AxelPolleres> which tests exactly in the manifest did we approve now? :-)
14:11:37 <LeeF> RESOLVED: Approve :full-minuend and :partial-minuend
14:11:38 <Arthur> +1
14:11:56 <AxelPolleres> ok.
14:12:08 <pgearon> yes to toggling the approval bit
14:12:31 <LeeF> ACTION: Paul to mark the *-minuend tests as approved
14:12:31 <trackbot> Created ACTION-650 - Mark the *-minuend tests as approved [on Paul Gearon - due 2012-07-03].
14:12:48 <LeeF> topic: Syntax tests
14:13:03 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/tests/data-sparql11/syntax-query/
14:13:08 <LeeF> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2012AprJun/0251.html
14:14:15 <LeeF> >> Positive: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/tests/data-sparql11/syntax-query/syntax-SELECTscope1.rq
14:14:15 <LeeF> >> Negative: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/tests/data-sparql11/syntax-query/syntax-SELECTscope2.rq
14:14:15 <LeeF> >> Positive:  http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/tests/data-sparql11/syntax-query/syntax-SELECTscope3.rq
14:16:51 <kasei> I pass the three syntax-SELECTscope tests as well.
14:17:11 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Approve http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/tests/data-sparql11/syntax-query/syntax-SELECTscope{1,2,3}.rq
14:17:25 <AxelPolleres> Lee: let's approve the SELECTscope test cases (greg and andy pass them)
14:17:31 <AxelPolleres> +1
14:17:38 <LeeF> RESOLVED: Approve http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/tests/data-sparql11/syntax-query/syntax-SELECTscope{1,2,3}.rq
14:17:39 <bglimm> bglimm has joined #sparql
14:17:48 <AndyS> I see 13 unapproved tests in the syntax-query area.  3 down => 10
14:18:03 <Zakim> +??P28
14:18:11 <bglimm> Zakim, ??P28 is me
14:18:11 <Zakim> +bglimm; got it
14:18:15 <bglimm> Zakim, mute me
14:18:15 <Zakim> bglimm should now be muted
14:19:56 <AndyS> --------------------------------------
14:19:57 <AndyS> | name                               |
14:19:57 <AndyS> ======================================
14:19:57 <AndyS> | "syntax-BINDscope8.rq"             |
14:19:57 <AndyS> | "syntax-BINDscope4.rq"             |
14:19:58 <AndyS> | "syntax-BINDscope6.rq"             |
14:19:59 <AndyS> | "syntax-BINDscope2.rq"             |
14:20:01 <AndyS> | "syntax-BINDscope5.rq"             |
14:20:03 <AndyS> | "syntax-BINDscope3.rq"             |
14:20:04 <AxelPolleres> Lee: shall we discuss/approve now, or shall we wait until the spec on BIND/SCOPE is finished?
14:20:06 <AndyS> | "PrefixName with unescaped colons" |
14:20:06 <Zakim> -pgearon
14:20:07 <AndyS> | "syntax-SELECTscope2"              |
14:20:09 <AndyS> | "syntax-BINDscope1.rq"             |
14:20:11 <AndyS> | "syntax-SELECTscope3.rq"           |
14:20:14 <AndyS> | "syntax-SELECTscope1.rq"           |
14:20:15 <AndyS> | "syntax-propertyPaths-01.rq"       |
14:20:16 <AxelPolleres> Andy: think  best to wait.
14:20:17 <AndyS> | "syntax-BINDscope7.rq"             |
14:20:19 <AndyS> --------------------------------------
14:20:42 <AxelPolleres> Lee: let's look at the non-BIND ones for now.
14:21:02 <kasei> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/implementations/ also indicates the unapproved tests (~1 week old)
14:22:45 <AndyS> SELECT ?x ?name
14:22:45 <AndyS> {
14:22:45 <AndyS>   ?x  mf:name  ?name ;
14:22:45 <AndyS>       dawgt:approval dawgt:NotClassified .
14:22:45 <AndyS> }
14:23:22 <kasei> I was able to pass that test somehow...
14:23:26 <AndyS> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
14:23:26 <AndyS> | x                                                                                      | name                               |
14:23:26 <AndyS> ===============================================================================================================================
14:23:26 <AndyS> | <http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/tests/data-sparql11/syntax-query/manifest#test_62> | "syntax-BINDscope8.rq"             |
14:23:29 <AndyS> | <http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/tests/data-sparql11/syntax-query/manifest#test_58> | "syntax-BINDscope4.rq"             |
14:23:32 <AndyS> | <http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/tests/data-sparql11/syntax-query/manifest#test_60> | "syntax-BINDscope6.rq"             |
14:23:35 <AndyS> | <http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/tests/data-sparql11/syntax-query/manifest#test_56> | "syntax-BINDscope2.rq"             |
14:23:39 <AndyS> | <http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/tests/data-sparql11/syntax-query/manifest#test_59> | "syntax-BINDscope5.rq"             |
14:23:41 <AndyS> | <http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/tests/data-sparql11/syntax-query/manifest#test_57> | "syntax-BINDscope3.rq"             |
14:23:44 <AndyS> | <http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/tests/data-sparql11/syntax-query/manifest#test_54> | "PrefixName with unescaped colons" |
14:23:47 <AndyS> | <http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/tests/data-sparql11/syntax-query/manifest#test_65> | "syntax-SELECTscope2"              |
14:23:50 <AndyS> | <http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/tests/data-sparql11/syntax-query/manifest#test_55> | "syntax-BINDscope1.rq"             |
14:23:53 <AndyS> | <http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/tests/data-sparql11/syntax-query/manifest#test_66> | "syntax-SELECTscope3.rq"           |
14:23:56 <AndyS> | <http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/tests/data-sparql11/syntax-query/manifest#test_64> | "syntax-SELECTscope1.rq"           |
14:23:59 <AndyS> | <http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/tests/data-sparql11/syntax-query/manifest#test_63> | "syntax-propertyPaths-01.rq"       |
14:24:02 <AndyS> | <http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/tests/data-sparql11/syntax-query/manifest#test_61> | "syntax-BINDscope7.rq"             |
14:24:05 <AndyS> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
14:26:10 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Approve <http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/tests/data-sparql11/syntax-query/manifest#test_63> and <http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/tests/data-sparql11/syntax-query/manifest#test_54>
14:26:19 <kasei> +1
14:26:34 <AndyS> +1
14:26:36 <Zakim> + +1.540.841.aacc
14:26:38 <AxelPolleres> +1
14:27:08 <bglimm> 0 (didn't look at the tests yet)
14:27:09 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/tests/data-sparql11/syntax-query/syntax-propertyPaths-01.rq
14:27:12 <LeeF> RESOLVED: Approve <http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/tests/data-sparql11/syntax-query/manifest#test_63> and <http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/tests/data-sparql11/syntax-query/manifest#test_54>
14:27:46 <AxelPolleres> looks fine on CVS, but we don't see http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/tests/data-sparql11/syntax-query/syntax-propertyPaths-01.rq on the Web
14:27:58 <AxelPolleres> Lee: sandro, any idea?
14:28:46 <AxelPolleres> sandro: fixed.
14:29:20 <AxelPolleres> ... there are some others with permission problems.
14:29:26 <AxelPolleres> sandro: will fix.
14:30:21 <AxelPolleres> ... all on the syntax-query file is now readable again.
14:30:40 <LeeF> topic: SERVICE SILENT
14:30:45 <LeeF> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2012AprJun/0248.html
14:31:45 <AxelPolleres> Lee: SERVICE keyword takes SILENT which means that SILENT returns an empty result with no bindings... question whether it should return no rows.
14:32:08 <AndyS> The UC is going to several places: { SERVICE SILENT <s1> { ... } } UNION { SERVICE SILENT <s2> { ... } } -- adding the empty row was confusing
14:32:57 <AndyS> {   SERVICE <S> { ....}    ?s ?p ?o  }
14:33:23 <AxelPolleres> Andy: when merging UNIONs of SERVICE calls, getting nothing would be preferable.
14:34:18 <AxelPolleres> greg: could be fixed with FILTER( bound (... ))
14:35:37 <AxelPolleres> Lee: Anybody has a preference? 
14:35:45 <bglimm> no
14:35:48 <AxelPolleres> Greg: whatever gets us to rec faster.
14:36:00 <AxelPolleres> +1 to greg
14:36:06 <bglimm> +1 also to greg
14:36:14 <AndyS> I don't use SERVICE currently so hard to have a solid opinion.
14:37:11 <AxelPolleres> q+ to try to sum up my understanding...
14:37:59 <LeeF> ack AxelPolleres
14:37:59 <Zakim> AxelPolleres, you wanted to try to sum up my understanding...
14:39:51 <LeeF> Consensus of group currently is to keep the design as is (1 row, no bindings)
14:39:59 <LeeF> topic: Format of protocol error bodies
14:40:00 <AxelPolleres> Andy: I can take it back to the people who came up with it originally and ask if they have arguments why an alt design would be much better
14:40:07 <AndyS> ACTION Andy: reflect WG discussion on SERVICE SILENT to original users and see what the response is.
14:40:07 <trackbot> Created ACTION-651 - Reflect WG discussion on SERVICE SILENT to original users and see what the response is. [on Andy Seaborne - due 2012-07-03].
14:40:16 <LeeF> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2012AprJun/0239.html
14:40:58 <AxelPolleres> Lee: origins back to a comment fomr Richard Cyganiak, when we still had WSDL.
14:41:44 <AxelPolleres> ... WSDL allows XML element in response to provide errors for protocol requests, less clear for pure HTTP
14:42:04 <AndyS> q+ to ask if any other system/community/?? who do provide a machine readable format and it's acted on by machine?
14:43:39 <AxelPolleres> ... greg and Lee talked this over and agreed to leave it underspecified since threre is no clear agreed path forward at the moment.
14:43:41 <LeeF> ack AndyS
14:43:41 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask if any other system/community/?? who do provide a machine readable format and it's acted on by machine?
14:45:11 <LeeF> AndyS: APP says "should include a human readable description of the error"
14:45:50 <LeeF> APP says
14:45:51 <LeeF> """
14:45:52 <LeeF> Implementers are asked to note that according to the HTTP
14:45:52 <LeeF>    specification, HTTP 4xx and 5xx response entities SHOULD include a
14:45:52 <LeeF>    human-readable explanation of the error.
14:45:53 <LeeF> """
14:45:55 <AndyS> RFC 5023 sec 5.5 -> RFC 2616 -> human readable
14:46:06 <AxelPolleres> Lee: according to HTTP 5xx and 4xx shoult include human-readable error messages.
14:46:23 <AxelPolleres> ... would lean to copy that text in our protocol spec.
14:46:52 <kasei> HTTP/1.1 400 Syntax Error
14:47:04 <AxelPolleres> Greg: HTTP status message could be the machine-readable part of the response.
14:47:34 <AxelPolleres> ... but there aren't really any other examples where machine-readable bodies are used.
14:47:56 <pgearon> pgearon has joined #sparql
14:48:55 <sandro> rdfa
14:49:32 <AndyS> json-ld
14:50:09 <AxelPolleres> Axel: we could add to future work items
14:50:46 <AxelPolleres> Lee: I don't see this as something we don't do because of lack of time, but because it's just not clear at this point where/whether it's needed.
14:53:36 <AxelPolleres> Sandro: we could return RDFa or Turtle included in the body of the response.
14:55:31 <Zakim> -AndyS
14:55:34 <AxelPolleres> Lee: current text is fine for me.
14:55:51 <Zakim> +??P16
14:55:57 <AndyS> zakim, ??P16 is me
14:55:57 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
14:56:21 <AxelPolleres> Lee: consensus that we don't change anything, I will draft a response. 
14:56:34 <AxelPolleres> ... we will continue where we stand with documents next weeks.
14:56:56 <bglimm> fine with me
14:57:03 <AxelPolleres> Lee: dynamic function calls.... propose to not add it and add it to future work items list.
14:57:06 <MattPerry> fine with me too
14:57:12 <LeeF> PROPOSED: SPARQL 1.1 does not include dynamic function calls, we will add it to future items list
14:57:17 <AxelPolleres> Andy: fine with that
14:57:22 <LeeF> RESOLVED: SPARQL 1.1 does not include dynamic function calls, we will add it to future items list
14:57:24 <AxelPolleres> Greg: fine as well
14:57:44 <LeeF> ACTION: Lee to put dynamicfunction calls on future work list and respond to Rob Vesse's comment
14:57:44 <trackbot> Created ACTION-652 - Put dynamicfunction calls on future work list and respond to Rob Vesse's comment [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2012-07-03].
14:57:56 <AxelPolleres> AOB?
14:58:17 <AxelPolleres> Greg: DBooth comment on dataset construction, seems to need a formal reply.
14:58:48 <AxelPolleres> Lee: think this is just unchanged from SPARQL1.0.
14:58:56 <AxelPolleres> Greg: will draft a rpely.
14:59:13 <AxelPolleres> ...(not being too keen on doing so)
14:59:24 <AxelPolleres> adjourned.
14:59:24 <MattPerry> bye
14:59:24 <kasei> AxelPolleres, can you give me an action for that?
14:59:27 <Zakim> -LeeF
14:59:28 <Zakim> -MattPerry
14:59:29 <Zakim> -AndyS
14:59:30 <Zakim> -sandro
14:59:32 <Zakim> - +1.540.841.aacc
14:59:34 <Zakim> -bglimm
14:59:39 <kasei> and close ACTION-638 at the same time?
14:59:44 <Zakim> -kasei
14:59:47 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: greg to draft a reply on DBooth comment on dataset construction
14:59:47 <trackbot> Created ACTION-653 - Draft a reply on DBooth comment on dataset construction [on Gregory Williams - due 2012-07-03].
14:59:47 <Zakim> -Arthur
15:00:01 <AxelPolleres> rrsagent, make records public
15:00:20 <Zakim> -AxelPolleres
15:00:21 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended
15:00:21 <Zakim> Attendees were kasei, sandro, LeeF, +1.603.897.aaaa, MattPerry, AndyS, pgearon, +49.897.aabb, AxelPolleres, Arthur, bglimm, +1.540.841.aacc
16:48:53 <kasei> and another david booth comment rolls in...
16:49:09 <kasei> I don't understand what he's on about this time.
16:52:25 <kasei> oh. I think he's concerned with the text that says implementations MAY return failure if the input graph to ADD doesn't exist.
16:53:20 <kasei> not exatly as dire as the "will fail" situation he describes. and no worse than the default case of 'implementation may refuse a request for any reason'...
16:54:08 <kasei> but the intuition behind the MAY w.r.t. implementations that automatically remove empty graphs isn't spelled out.
16:54:52 <kasei> that was there for quadstores (not graph stores), in which case there's no difference between empty and non-existent graphs. so the MAY condition probably wouldn't cause an error.
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17:03:21 <AndyS> DavidB has missed that """INSERT { ( GRAPH IRIref_to )? { ?s ?p ?o } } WHERE { ( GRAPH IRIref_from )? { ?s ?p ?o } }""" covers this.
17:48:10 <kasei> I'm not sure it does. This may be another section where we describe it as equivalent, but the description is different.
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