IRC log of indie-ui on 2012-06-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:58:57 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #indie-ui
16:58:57 [RRSAgent]
logging to
16:59:15 [janina]
zakim, this will be 46343
16:59:15 [Zakim]
ok, janina; I see WAI_Indie()1:00PM scheduled to start in 1 minute
16:59:28 [janina]
zakim, who's here?
16:59:28 [Zakim]
WAI_Indie()1:00PM has not yet started, janina
16:59:29 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, vincent-gros, smaug_, MichaelC
17:00:02 [janina]
Meeting: IndieUI Task Force telecon
17:00:02 [janina]
Chair: Janina_Sajka
17:00:02 [janina]
agenda+ Source code repository Update
17:00:02 [janina]
agenda+ Task Force Work Statement
17:00:02 [janina]
agenda+ Recruiting Update
17:00:05 [janina]
agenda+ Need to identify tests editor
17:00:07 [janina]
agenda+ Use Cases Wiki Update
17:00:10 [janina]
agenda+ Events Module & Use Cases from Apple -- James Craig
17:00:12 [janina]
agenda+ Next Teleconference Scribe
17:00:15 [janina]
agenda+ Be Done
17:00:52 [jcraig]
jcraig has joined #indie-ui
17:01:51 [shepazu]
shepazu has joined #indie-ui
17:01:51 [janina]
zakim, who's on the phone?
17:01:51 [Zakim]
WAI_Indie()1:00PM has not yet started, janina
17:01:52 [Zakim]
On IRC I see shepazu, jcraig, RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, vincent-gros, smaug_, MichaelC
17:02:01 [MichaelC]
zakim, this is indie
17:02:01 [Zakim]
ok, MichaelC; that matches WAI_Indie()1:00PM
17:02:07 [Zakim]
17:02:13 [shepazu]
Zakim, code?
17:02:13 [Zakim]
17:02:15 [Zakim]
the conference code is 46343 (tel:+1.617.761.6200, shepazu
17:02:41 [Zakim]
17:03:00 [MichaelC]
zakim, ??P8 is Janina
17:03:00 [Zakim]
+Janina; got it
17:03:02 [Zakim]
17:03:10 [MichaelC]
zakim, ??P9 is Andy_Heath
17:03:10 [Zakim]
+Andy_Heath; got it
17:03:33 [MichaelC]
zakim, ??P0 is Vincent_Gros
17:03:33 [Zakim]
+Vincent_Gros; got it
17:03:35 [Zakim]
17:04:09 [andy]
andy has joined #indie-ui
17:04:22 [MichaelC]
17:04:26 [clown]
clown has joined #indie-ui
17:05:03 [jcraig]
Zakim, who is here?
17:05:03 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Janina, Cooper, Vincent_Gros, Andy_Heath, Doug_Schepers, James_Craig
17:05:06 [Zakim]
On IRC I see clown, andy, shepazu, jcraig, RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, vincent-gros, smaug_, MichaelC
17:05:09 [Zakim]
17:05:28 [clown]
zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:05:28 [Zakim]
+Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
17:05:37 [clown]
zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:05:37 [Zakim]
ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:05:40 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Andy_Heath
17:05:40 [jcraig]
scribe: jcraig
17:06:15 [Zakim]
17:06:27 [abarsto]
abarsto has joined #indie-ui
17:07:00 [Zakim]
17:07:12 [ArtB]
Present+ Art_Barstow
17:07:37 [richardschwerdtfe]
richardschwerdtfe has joined #indie-ui
17:07:41 [jcraig]
agenda: Source Code Repository Update
17:07:52 [jcraig]
topic: Source Code Repository Update
17:08:36 [jcraig]
mc: no progress from last week.
17:09:01 [jcraig]
jc: needed to send proposal regarding branches or directories per version
17:09:02 [clown]
last week's minute:
17:09:27 [jcraig]
topic: Task Force Work Statement
17:10:05 [jcraig]
js: Are we done? Any more discussion needed?
17:10:29 [jcraig]
js: Otherwise, close discussion through email.
17:11:05 [shepazu]
zakim, who's noisy?
17:11:16 [Zakim]
shepazu, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Janina (81%), Andy_Heath (30%), James_Craig (23%), Art_Barstow (4%)
17:11:39 [jcraig]
jc: changes were mainly about editors sending regrets
17:11:47 [Zakim]
17:11:48 [jcraig]
topic: Recruiting Update
17:12:21 [shepazu]
17:12:22 [jcraig]
js: some participants may have schedule conflict. aus, asia
17:12:24 [Zakim]
17:12:49 [jcraig]
js: any more updates from recruiting?
17:12:54 [jcraig]
ack d
17:13:01 [clown]
q+ to update on recruiting.
17:13:37 [jcraig]
ab: forwarded to group: rick meyers from google and sang moon(?) from Opera.
17:14:00 [jcraig]
ab: also one person from mozilla via IRC has expressed interest
17:14:24 [ArtB]
s/rick meyers/Rick Byers/
17:14:39 [janina]
17:15:07 [jcraig]
ds: any idea of number of people in EU?
17:15:28 [jcraig]
ah: I'm in EU.
17:15:57 [jcraig]
vg: I'm in France
17:16:12 [jcraig]
ds: I suggest a poll once we get more participants.
17:17:24 [shepazu]
zakim, who's noisy?
17:17:26 [jcraig]
ds: already have reps from apple, google, nokia, mozilla, opera, etc.
17:17:34 [Zakim]
shepazu, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Doug_Schepers (29%), Janina (19%), Andy_Heath (19%), Joseph_Scheuhammer (60%)
17:18:03 [shepazu]
zakim, who's noisy?
17:18:15 [Zakim]
shepazu, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Andy_Heath (70%)
17:18:22 [shepazu]
zakim, mute andy
17:18:23 [Zakim]
Andy_Heath should now be muted
17:18:34 [clown]
17:18:38 [jcraig]
clown: discussing with Joanie last week, and thought to invite too debs. I heard scott gonzalez (jQuery dev) was interested.
17:19:34 [jcraig]
ds: Scott is in the same area as I am. Great idea to get him involved.
17:20:18 [jcraig]
topic: Need to identify tests editor
17:21:02 [jcraig]
js: we have james craig as the spec editor; still need a tests editor.
17:21:21 [jcraig]
js: need at least by mid-stream, but the sooner the better.
17:21:34 [jcraig]
ds: expectations for test driver:
17:21:58 [janina]
17:22:04 [janina]
ack d
17:22:10 [janina]
ack s
17:22:21 [jcraig]
ds: make sure there are clear testable assertions in spec, write tests themselves, drive conversation around testing, pester for deliverables, etc.
17:22:22 [clown]
ack me
17:22:22 [Zakim]
Joseph_Scheuhammer, you wanted to update on recruiting.
17:23:36 [jcraig]
ds: make sure they don't give false positives or negatives, and incorporates any unsolicited tests submitted by group members or outside contributors, needs coordination skills
17:24:08 [jcraig]
js: some of that is the wider group responsibility, but I agree that one should be directly responsible
17:24:25 [janina]
ack j
17:24:41 [jcraig]
topic: Use Cases Wiki Update
17:25:01 [jcraig]
js: thanks Doug (Art?) for getting the wiki started
17:25:40 [jcraig]
rs: Does the person (Byers) from Google have access to the wiki?
17:26:00 [jcraig]
rs: needs a W3C login.
17:26:13 [jcraig]
mc: he is a member so he has access.
17:26:51 [jcraig]
ab: I'll make sure Rick knows to add his own cases to the wiki.
17:26:58 [ArtB]
ACTION: barstow make sure Rick Byers knows we want him to directly add his UCs to the UC wiki
17:27:05 [jcraig]
topic: Events Module & Use Cases from Apple -- James Craig
17:27:06 [clown]
scribenick: clown
17:27:33 [clown]
js: gives conch to jcraig
17:27:57 [clown]
JC: been about two years since original proposal.
17:28:03 [jcraig]
17:28:43 [clown]
JC: started thinking about this with respect to ARIA
17:28:57 [clown]
JC: partly due to the emphasis on key presses
17:29:17 [clown]
JC: as outlined in the DHTML Style Guide.
17:29:38 [clown]
JC: for key strokes for interacting with DHTML user interfaces
17:29:55 [clown]
JC: doesn't scale well for a number of reasons
17:30:19 [clown]
JC: different set of keystrokes compared to, say, what a screen reader user is used to.
17:30:36 [clown]
JC: doesn't work for cases where there is no keyboard, such as a touch screen.
17:30:54 [clown]
JC: don't want to put this on the author to put this information/control in.
17:31:26 [clown]
JC: we thought that the way to do this is with DOM mutation events, but those are not consistently implemented in browsers.
17:32:01 [clown]
JC: so, come up with events that correspond to user actions, and implement those.
17:32:15 [clown]
JC: and these should be more performant than mutation events.
17:32:54 [clown]
RS: when and where are these events directed at specific objects.
17:33:02 [clown]
RS: with a keyboard, you have focus.
17:33:22 [clown]
RS: how do we direct the input at the relevant UI object?
17:33:54 [clown]
JC: if there are multiple scroll views on the page, which one gets the scroll event?
17:34:31 [clown]
JC: that's up to the UA to figure out. For example, VoiceOver has an idea of where the user is directing their attention.
17:34:58 [clown]
JC: if on a scroll view, then sent there, and it bubbles up.
17:35:07 [clown]
JC: if no known focus, send the event to the body.
17:35:33 [clown]
RS: on a touch device, can we assume that an element can have focus?
17:36:13 [clown]
JC: the ability to determine the event and its target is the responsibiltiy of the OS and the UA.
17:36:44 [clown]
RS: for the purpose of spec'ing these the events, can we leave the determination of the point-of-regard is left up to the platform.
17:37:05 [clown]
JC: the POR can be determined at the time of regard.
17:37:23 [clown]
aside 'POR' = 'point of regard'
17:37:32 [shepazu]
17:37:50 [clown]
JC: the heuristics will be in the UA.
17:38:02 [Cathy]
Cathy has joined #indie-ui
17:38:09 [clown]
JC: in voice command, give a name to apply the event to.
17:38:21 [jcraig]
ack d
17:38:37 [clown]
DS: is there a substantive different between the focus or POR?
17:38:53 [clown]
RS: the POR is the location in the doc where you are operating.
17:38:54 [jcraig]
s/POR/point of regard (POR)/
17:39:41 [clown]
RS: there is another level of granularity.
17:39:58 [clown]
RS: focus is on the contariner and focus is within that.
17:40:27 [clown]
s/and focus is within that/and POR is within that/
17:40:46 [clown]
DS: james has other examples.
17:40:51 [clown]
DS: ?
17:41:50 [clown]
RS: VoiceOver (the screen reader for iOS and OSX) has a way of setting the POR, or screen reader focus.
17:42:08 [clown]
JC: and the keyboard focus might be differnt from the screen reader focus (POR).
17:42:23 [Zakim]
17:42:26 [clown]
JC: the POR can move indepedently of the keyboard focus.
17:42:27 [Cathy]
zakim, ??P2 is me
17:42:27 [Zakim]
+Cathy; got it
17:42:36 [clown]
JC: but usually, they are kept in sync.
17:42:43 [Cathy]
Present+ Cathy_Chan
17:43:46 [clown]
DS: I reviewed some document that all sorts of focus defined.
17:44:00 [clown]
DS: do they all come down to these two? POR and keyboard focus?
17:44:06 [clown]
RS: yes, I think so.
17:44:22 [clown]
DS: we should try to get this concept out there.
17:44:30 [clown]
JS: should we start a glossary?
17:44:51 [jcraig]
q+ to mention glossary def versus explanation discussion
17:44:57 [clown]
q+ to say that the spec should define these
17:45:23 [clown]
DS: there were concepts and I found it confusing.
17:45:36 [clown]
DS: I'm going to try and explain these in the wiki, as a first stab.
17:45:58 [clown]
DS: we should give a normative definition of these concepts.
17:46:07 [jcraig]
ack d
17:46:23 [clown]
JS: we owe the term to the aaron leventhal.
17:46:24 [jcraig]
ack me
17:46:24 [Zakim]
jcraig, you wanted to mention glossary def versus explanation discussion
17:46:29 [MichaelC]
ack s
17:46:53 [clown]
JC: I believe that this should be explained into a spec, whether normative or informative.
17:47:03 [janina]
17:47:11 [jcraig]
ack j
17:47:11 [Zakim]
Joseph_Scheuhammer, you wanted to say that the spec should define these
17:47:20 [janina]
17:47:23 [shepazu]
zakim, who's noisy?
17:47:34 [Zakim]
shepazu, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: James_Craig (15%), Joseph_Scheuhammer (64%)
17:48:04 [jcraig]
clown: if these events are in the spec, the terms will be there. for example "DOM focus" (or another term like Point of Regard) should be defined in the spec.
17:48:30 [jcraig]
ds: This may be a presentation issue and might benefit from coordination with CSS WG
17:48:35 [clown]
DS: this might benefit from a coordination with CSS group.
17:49:15 [clown]
DS: the point of the regard is a presentation thing, not something in the DOM.
17:49:41 [jcraig]
ds: SVG has concept like this: viewport and viewbox
17:50:15 [jcraig]
ds: clarifying "point of regard" is not same as "point of focus" which is like activeElement
17:50:18 [jcraig]
17:50:31 [shepazu]
s/concept like this/concept related to this/
17:50:34 [clown]
s/which is like activeElement/which is the activeElement/
17:50:59 [shepazu]
agenda+ Format of Use Cases
17:51:14 [clown]
JS: this helps the IDL and whoever writes theses specs, and this will help the developers to handle things correctly.
17:51:32 [janina]
17:51:35 [janina]
ack j
17:52:05 [clown]
JC: most modern web apps register all events on the body to detect all the targets without having to add/remove from specific elements.
17:52:23 [clown]
DS: can events be fired on the POR?
17:52:43 [clown]
JC: yes, because in some cases the author may not want to register the event on the body.
17:52:52 [clown]
JC: and example is a small widget like a button.
17:53:09 [clown]
JC: but in large webapps that wouldn't be the best approach.
17:53:43 [clown]
DS: there are seemingly implications for the DOM. And, it's not just presentational.
17:53:44 [ArtB]
17:53:59 [clown]
JS: it's a new type of DOM event.
17:54:16 [clown]
s/JS:  it's a new type of DOM event./JC:  it's a new type of DOM event./
17:54:29 [clown]
DS: not just a new type of event, but a new type of event flow.
17:54:47 [clown]
DS: not saying it's bad, just something to consider.
17:54:49 [jcraig]
ack ArtB
17:55:12 [clown]
AB: can you say anything the implementnation status of that draft?
17:55:42 [clown]
JC: I can't say anything about that — Apple doesn't say anything about things that are not shipping.
17:56:04 [clown]
JC: there was a commitment to webkit, but was removed since there was no formal W3C spec.
17:56:31 [clown]
AB: is anybody expecting another group to make a similar proposal as James'?
17:57:04 [clown]
RS: I am working on use cases; the events that James has — I don't have any issue.
17:57:12 [clown]
RS: we can build off of the current proposal.
17:57:48 [ArtB]
17:58:01 [clown]
JS: any hot questions for James?
17:58:20 [clown]
DS: looking at Rich's use cases, but those are not use cases.
17:58:30 [clown]
DS: you are putting requirements where the use cases are.
17:58:39 [clown]
DS: we can talk off line.
17:58:58 [jcraig]
q+ to remind group members to read the original proposal if they haven't already. It's short. I promise. ;-)
17:59:44 [clown]
DS: I will write up a more explicit how-to for writing use cases.
17:59:57 [clown]
JS: charter calls for the telecons every other week.
18:00:08 [clown]
JS: two weeks today is a major US holiday.
18:00:19 [clown]
JS: meet next week? or wait 4 weeks?
18:00:37 [clown]
JS: we can't afford to wait 4 weeks.
18:00:49 [clown]
JC: propose we do the 3 week option.
18:01:00 [clown]
JS: so Jul 11
18:01:11 [clown]
JS; everyone okay with that.
18:01:33 [clown]
DS: we can work on use cases.
18:01:43 [clown]
JC: and on repository.
18:02:17 [clown]
JC: please everyone read at least the first section of the proposal — it's short.
18:02:37 [clown]
JC: the spec will be based on this proposal. If you have major comments, I'd like to hear them asap.
18:02:55 [clown]
JS: yes, let's get the concerns and issues out.
18:03:14 [clown]
JS: volunteers for scribe for next list.
18:03:21 [clown]
DS: let's take that up on the email list.
18:03:38 [Zakim]
18:03:47 [Zakim]
18:03:47 [clown]
JS: call the meeting to adjourn.
18:03:50 [Zakim]
18:03:51 [Zakim]
18:03:51 [Zakim]
18:03:52 [Zakim]
18:03:58 [clown]
zakim, please part
18:03:58 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were Cooper, Janina, Doug_Schepers, Andy_Heath, Vincent_Gros, James_Craig, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Art_Barstow, Rich, Cathy
18:03:58 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #indie-ui
18:04:10 [clown]
RRSAgent: make minutes.
18:04:10 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes.', clown. Try /msg RRSAgent help
18:04:18 [clown]
RRSAgent: make minutes
18:04:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate clown
18:05:03 [clown]
RRSAgent, make log public
18:06:44 [janina]
zakim, who's here?
18:10:02 [jcraig]
jcraig has left #indie-ui
18:48:06 [ArtB]
Note to Self: make sure trackbot is running before the start of the next meeting
18:49:38 [ArtB]
ArtB has changed the topic to: IndieUI WG and Task Force; next call is July 11 (ArtB)
19:02:42 [trackbot]
trackbot has joined #indie-ui
19:02:42 [trackbot]
Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
19:02:42 [trackbot]
If you want to associate this channel with an existing Tracker, please say 'trackbot, associate this channel with #channel' (where #channel is the name of default channel for the group)
19:44:07 [ArtB]
trackbot, associate this channel with indieui
19:44:07 [trackbot]
Associating this channel with indieui...
19:44:07 [trackbot]
Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
19:44:07 [trackbot]
If you want to associate this channel with an existing Tracker, please say 'trackbot, associate this channel with #channel' (where #channel is the name of default channel for the group)
19:44:38 [ArtB]
trackbot, associate this channel with #indieui
19:44:38 [trackbot]
Associating this channel with #indieui...
19:44:45 [ArtB]
19:44:45 [trackbot]
ISSUE-1 does not exist
19:44:52 [ArtB]
19:44:52 [trackbot]
ACTION-1 does not exist
19:46:08 [ArtB]
ACTION: barstow make sure Rick Byers knows we want him to directly add his UCs to the UC wiki
19:46:08 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-1 - Make sure Rick Byers knows we want him to directly add his UCs to the UC wiki [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-06-27].
19:46:17 [ArtB]
19:46:17 [trackbot]
ACTION-1 -- Arthur Barstow to make sure Rick Byers knows we want him to directly add his UCs to the UC wiki -- due 2012-06-27 -- OPEN
19:46:17 [trackbot]
19:46:29 [ArtB]
19:46:29 [trackbot]
ACTION-2 does not exist
20:41:51 [clown]
clown has left #indie-ui