NB. Initial copy of IRC is just copied a pasted from the IRC window as RRSAgent not invited until later. Apologies for confusion. Cleaned up minutes are, as always, a better bet. meeting: Using Open Data Workshop, Day 2 PhilA chair: PhilA PhilA scribe:Phil PhilA scribe: PhilA 08:02 PhilA agenda: http://www.w3.org/2012/06/pmod/agenda#day2 08:07 -> TimDavies has joined egov 08:08 -> gsutherlin has joined egov 08:09 -> huddler has joined egov 08:11 PhilA PhilA: Brief intro, highlighting links on the agenda PhilA Topic: Provoking Thoughts 08:13 PhilA Martin's paper -> Including all audiences in the government loop: From transparency to empowerment through open government data PhilA Martin's Paper -> http://www.w3.org/2012/06/pmod/pmod2012_submission_18.pdf 08:14 PhilA Martin: Shows basic structure with no feedback loop PhilA Martin: adds in the feedback loop 08:16 PhilA ... how can we measure transparency by measuring data? PhilA ... journal paper coming out soon PhilA ... we can measure info straight from the government 08:17 PhilA ... we can measure powerful voices and citizen's groups -> ot has joined egov ot changes nick to olivier PhilA ... lots of measurement of perception of transparency. Can we measure it more objectively 08:18 <- huddler has disconnected (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client) PhilA ... describes different types of transparency (agent controlled or not) 08:19 -> olyerickson has joined eGov PhilA ... publicity and accountability are both necessary -> B has joined egov PhilA ... e.g. Nigeria is very transparent but accountability has been low and therefore transparency has been less effective olyerickson PhilA I've got your back if you need me... <- B has disconnected (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client) 08:20 -> kendle has joined egov PhilA thanks olyerickson - I will ask you to do some of this later, don't worry. Also olivier has kindly said we would do some and Jeanne... olyerickson ...8 metrics for institutional and eco transparency 08:21 olyerickson phila okay PhilA Martin: applied the 8 metrics to many South American countries olyerickson ...results of applying the 8 xparency metrics to latin american countries 08:22 PhilA ... Venezuela not doing so well, Brazil and Chile dong well in these terms 08:23 PhilA ... describes two different values that come out of the metrics olyerickson is interested in how good statistical correlation shows lack of corruption (was that the speaker's point?) PhilA ... Low correlation between the online srevice inde 08:24 PhilA ... low correlation between Government Data Openness Index and UN Online Service Index 08:25 <- kendle has disconnected (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client) PhilA Martin: so research shows there must be accountability and that info can be received (however - doesn't matter) -> schegi has joined egov PhilA ... mechanisms for accountability necessary, not just lections PhilA s/lections/elections 08:28 olyerickson not sure I understand the "publicity condition..." -> Vagner_br has joined egov 08:30 olyerickson thinks, who needs PhilA when we could have MaxDataHeadroom PhilA Martin: Shows video generated from text - as an e.g. of an appropriate way to show data 08:31 PhilA Federico: Surprised to see no reference to social media -> curmet has joined egov PhilA Martin: Not seen evidence / research into impact of social media in this space PhilA Richard: Your research was focussed on South America? 08:32 PhilA Martin: yes, because they are all democtratic countries but with varying definitions of democracy 08:33 PhilA AndrewL: I see Argentina second from bottom on your list. Being used to beat Argentina with... If you've travelled around these countries, does the transparency index 'feel right'? PhilA Martin: I think this is embryonic and we haven't yet reached a steady state 08:34 PhilA ... You're right that Argentina has always had problems with corruption and used to be a world power 50 years ago... lots of problems PhilA Topic: Sharon Dawes A Realistic Look at Open Data 08:35 PhilA Sharon's paper -> http://www.w3.org/2012/06/pmod/pmod2012_submission_38.pdf PhilA Sharon's slides -> http://www.w3.org/2012/06/pmod/presentation-dawes.pdf 08:36 PhilA Sharon: First career was as a manager in government olyerickson Sharon is with CTG Albany http://www.ctg.albany.edu/ PhilA ... this morning is a summary of 20 years experiendce in this spacxe 08:37 olyerickson ...<"then a miracle occurs" cartoon> PhilA Sharon: We don't really understand where all the data around us comes from 08:38 PhilA ... it appears like the "then a miracle occurs" situation -> MielVDS has joined egov PhilA Sharon: Data problems come from a variety of sources. And problems arise along the way. There are assumptions about data and its provenance 08:39 PhilA ... data comes from the operation of public programmes 08:40 <- curmet has disconnected (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client) PhilA ... actions may collect data in different ways etc. About people, places, money etc and we treat them differently -> A has joined egov -> cgueret has joined egov PhilA Sharon: We don't use data properly. We mis-use it because of false assumptions, or we don't use it because we don't understand it PhilA ... the reasons why we don't use the data for policy making is that we don't really understand whewre it comes from 08:41 PhilA ... and we shift responsibility for data quality depending where we are in the chain PhilA ... e.g. census bureau is a gold standard for getting data right at the source. But the less we spend at the source the less likely the data is to be accurate 08:42 PhilA Sharon: Where does data come from? PhilA ... administrative systems PhilA ... governed in a particular way and gathered in a specific context for a specific need 08:43 PhilA ... about 40K homeless people in NY state on any given night. Wide variety of support programmes. Some very large, some very small... different capabilities in organising and collecting data 08:44 PhilA ... differing links to welfare system etc. PhilA ... ability to pull data together varies -> variation in quality and detail of that data 08:45 PhilA ... mother arriving with 2 children doesn't know SS number, have birth certificates etc. -> gaps in the record that may or may not be filled in during her stay PhilA ... are the dates registered first entry to the shelter or most recent PhilA Charon: case 2 parcel data/cadastral olyerickson Cadastral records => http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadastre PhilA s/Charon/Sharon/ 08:46 PhilA Sharon: data collected for purporse of tax evaluation etc. Used for all sorts, transport planning, city planning etc. -> RRSAgent has joined egov RRSAgent logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/06/20-egov-irc 08:47 PhilA Sharon: Don't have to allow entry to assessors and so they may not be able to get in the building PhilA Sharon: as the data is passed up the chain and is aggregated, less and less of the data is passed on. If you want it all you'll have to contact thousands of local agencies PhilA ... they all do it differently 08:48 PhilA Sharon: Case 3 - where does the money go? PhilA ... 1bn of the 8bn went to the NY state transport system -> boris has joined egov 08:49 <- A has disconnected (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client) PhilA ... there's a requirement for grantees of the money to report quarterly. States not set up to do this and so systems had to be put in place very quickly PhilA ... 13 different information systems used by 400 projects PhilA ... implementation quality varied greatly PhilA ... and it's hard to measure. What is a job created? What is a job saved? 08:51 PhilA Sharon: we have data, we have technologies, we have management/organisations - how do we collect it? define it etc., and we have policies about the services and the data PhilA ... context is real people in real places trying to do complicated things PhilA ... not surprising that a lot of data is not used in policy making -> leimdorfer has joined egov 08:52 PhilA ... tend to use single data sources. We don't have data about whether services for homeless people and it's harder to get PhilA ... and elephant in the room is data quality -> Jeanne has joined egov PhilA ... for most people data quality means accuracy but it means more PhilA ... data quality = fitness for use 08:53 olyerickson methinks data quality is in the fitness to the beholder... PhilA ... data quality usually involves trade offs between, say, timeliness which may mean sacrificing some quality PhilA ... many dimensions to data quality 08:55 PhilA ... Describes US census data - very detailed. The gold standard. cf. the metadata about a tweet olyerickson ...Link to "Data Quality Assessment" (Pipino, et.al. 2002) http://dwquality.com/DQAssessment.pdf PhilA ... these are prganisations that understand the value of data. The amount of metadata and quality and attention on it should be commensurate with the value we think the data has -> A has joined egov 08:56 PhilA ... some data quality tools PhilA ... metadata should support users you don't know 08:57 olyerickson ...non-technical data quality tools for providers and users... PhilA sharon: data is an artificial representation of the real world 08:58 olyerickson ..."the more structured the (data), the further it is from the real world" PhilA ... we have talked a little about integrating data sets and we recognise that this is rarely done. That might not be a bad thing as combinations multiple the errors substantially olyerickson wonders if he heard that correctly... 08:59 <- A has disconnected (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client) PhilA Topic: Using open data: is it really empowering -> panitaliemom has joined egov PhilA paper -> http://www.w3.org/2012/06/pmod/pmod2012_submission_39.pdf 09:00 <- panitaliemom has disconnected (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client) PhilA HelenD: Take Sharon's last slide as a starting point... we're in the tsunami of data PhilA ... but do we get the information we want? josema changes nick to josema_away PhilA ... not always cost free -> stomper has joined egov 09:01 PhilA rrsagent, draft minutes RRSAgent I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/20-egov-minutes.html PhilA olyerickson ..."right" to data linked to "right" to access to information PhilA HelenD: Parallel to publishing of data has been improvement in rights to access to data 09:02 PhilA ... ECHR sees access to data as part of freedom of expression 3 years ago, confirmed by UN less than a year ago PhilA ... not sure that there's a necessity to talk about a right to data when we have a human right linked to freedom of expression PhilA ... need data in a proper format 09:03 PhilA ... machine readable etc. PhilA ... and should be free except perhaps printing costs if you want it that way PhilA ... highlights http://asktheeu.org PhilA ... used by OKFN to get access to entire EU budget in machine-readable format for the first time 09:04 olyerickson ..."New UN General Comment on Freedom of Expression" (2011) PhilA ... other aspect to access to info being a right puts oblgation on govs to publish proactively, not just in response to FOI PhilA ... Sharon made the comment that the data that's available may not be what's needed in policy making 09:05 olyerickson ..."When people outside govt...insist on data, can force policy makers to take into consideration data they may have overlooked" PhilA ... but when people outside government insist on access to data can force policy makers to consider data they haven't considered and then maybe use them - recognise the feedback loops <- stomper has disconnected (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client) PhilA ... we need relevant feedback loops 09:06 -> frogzilla has joined egov PhilA HelenD: what do we need to know to hold govs to account? <- frogzilla has disconnected (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client) PhilA ... open budget spending data is very important PhilA ... what is the impact on financial crisis on health services is very big 09:07 olyerickson ..."Data for Democracy": budget spending, health services, education data, companies registers, tax delinquency PhilA ... Chris Taggart gives most countries a score of 23/100 on company transparency 09:08 olyerickson ..."Transparency International measures corruption, not transparency..." -> A has joined egov PhilA Katleen: So Helen's spoken about gov obligation to provide what citizens need, not what they want to give 09:09 olyerickson ..."relevant information is not for the government to choose" PhilA Katleen: the Open data community is part of the supply side, not the demand side which is the end users, the public. That's teh goal we need to aim for olyerickson ...relevancy based on what citizens demand/need PhilA ... so what is our role? PhilA ... sitting here won't help 09:10 PhilA ... it's about reaching out to wider communities PhilA ... open data activitists have a responsibility to reach out to local activists PhilA ... ask not what open data can do for us but what it can do for citizens (paraphrase) 09:11 PhilA ... most peoiple don't know what to do with data files PhilA .. need to find a way to translate what we;re doing to a bigger group PhilA ... we need to realise how we're creating new dependencies 09:12 PhilA ... the open data community ends up being the gate keepers PhilA Richard: Questions? 09:13 olyerickson ...reference to "School of Data" (Ckan) PhilA Katleen: It takes a lot of work and it's a very good start but we need to do more (scribe may have that wrong) olyerickson ...School of Data link PhilA HelenD: Is the data reaching the campaigning groups and civil society folks 09:14 PhilA ... does civil society know how to get the data to relevant people. Not just raw data but visualisation and so on. Need complemenatry measures olyerickson ...dataviz work shouldn't stop on the web site PhilA ... we do a lot of work helping organisations use the data 09:15 olyerickson ...viz work should reach out to "user community" (citizens) to ensure it meets demands and is effective PhilA Tim: What is the message to those on teh supply side - should we stop and consider the capacity to use data before we release it 09:16 PhilA Federico: Do you think opening budget data is 'not enough' do you think teaching people about the budget could be better than just opening the data set Jeanne Great points on having to communicate more about open data ideas and projects. We can applaud the good ones here, but if the developers, citizens, or others don't know about what we are doing to help it doesn't make a difference. olyerickson ...Q: transparency in visualization...e,g,, how people know how data has been simplified 09:17 PhilA Christian: We also need some transparency in how to visualise the data. It gets simplified and so we need to understand that. DataViz closes data PhilA Vagner: Back to Sharon - the more structured the data, the less they represent reality - seems counter to everything we're here to talk about? 09:18 PhilA ... how can we comibine this data with the mess of reality PhilA ... in Brazil, people aren't concerned with data so how do we make it more interesting and more powerful PhilA Katleen: I agree with pretty much all remarks made... PhilA ... in response to Tim - maybe we should go out and ask people 09:19 olyerickson +1 to Vagner's comment...I'm not sure sharon's point on "structure" was referring to what we think of as "structured data" (RDF) PhilA ... developers get asked, but citizen's groups, environmental activists etc. need to be asked too 09:20 PhilA ... should government have a role in giving information, not just publishing data. When does the repsonsibility come back to gov? PhilA HelenD: On data accuracy - reality is messy. Don't expect true accurate data from government - ask what data they're using 09:21 olyerickson FOIA does not (in USA at least) apply to data, rather it applies to reports etc PhilA ... dicussions about whether Ecuador or Argentina is more transparent doesn't invaliudate the data 09:22 PhilA HelenD: Shows slide ranking availability of data in different countries - Serbia at the top, Austria at the bottom olyerickson Info on FOI legislation: PhilA Katleen: We have to do both - keep demanding data sets, and we need to link to the users. olyerickson Global RTI Rating Site PhilA ... we need to be very aware of what people want. Portals report that some data sets are never downloaded 09:23 PhilA ... in Brazil of course I met were the OD community. But you have a long history of participatory budget and those people know about the importance of access to info to engage in the debate. 09:24 olyerickson Q: "where is the stop in open data?" josema_away changes nick to josema PhilA Yannis: Where is the stop in Open Data - how much info do we really want to publish? is there a barrier somewhere? We're working on the assumption that if everything is open... I;m not happy to have my income statement online but if *everyione's* is, maybe I don't mind so much 09:25 PhilA ... if we live in a society where everything is open, then is that a viable society? -> Girts has joined egov PhilA HelenD: In theory it's possible to have a transparent dictatorship (ref. Martin's talk) 09:26 PhilA ... it wouldn't be possible for gos to publish *all* the data so let's start with what people are asking for Girts can i get the transcript of todays #egov activity? PhilA HelenD: The only way you know you've changed country when you drive around Europe is that the speed limit changes PhilA rrsagent, draft minutes RRSAgent I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/20-egov-minutes.html PhilA 09:27 olyerickson @girts Just hit P... PhilA Girts see above Girts thanks! PhilA helenD: Several countries put all tax returns online Girts ow it asks for username/pass today PhilA HelenD: We're saying let's ensure that the data is relevant. The Spanish portal has loads of PDFs of data that was already available 09:28 PhilA rrsagent, make logs public RRSAgent I have made the request, PhilA PhilA not any more Girts and thanks again olyerickson Re-iterating point that we must ensure data that is published is relevant to society... 09:29 PhilA Katleen: reports on discussions with privacy people who of course don't share default of open is good -> TimDavies_ has joined egov PhilA ... we can't advocate taxes online in Belgium in the way Norway does <- TimDavies_ has disconnected (Quit: Page closed) PhilA ... so we need to accept that there are differences between countries PhilA Richard: closes session PhilA COFFEE 09:30 PhilA rrsagent, draft minutes RRSAgent I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/20-egov-minutes.html PhilA 07:46:31 RRSAgent has joined #egov 07:46:31 logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/06/20-egov-irc 07:47:00 Sharon: Don't have to allow entry to assessors and so they may not be able to get in the building 07:47:39 Sharon: as the data is passed up the chain and is aggregated, less and less of the data is passed on. If you want it all you'll have to contact thousands of local agencies 07:47:45 ... they all do it differently 07:47:59 Sharon: Case 3 - where does the money go? 07:48:13 ... 1bn of the 8bn went to the NY state transport system 07:48:36 boris has joined #egov 07:49:11 ... there's a requirement for grantees of the money to report quarterly. States not set up to do this and so systems had to be put in place very quickly 07:49:22 ... 13 different information systems used by 400 projects 07:49:40 ... implementation quality varied greatly 07:49:51 ... and it's hard to measure. What is a job created? What is a job saved? 07:51:01 Sharon: we have data, we have technologies, we have management/organisations - how do we collect it? define it etc., and we have policies about the services and the data 07:51:14 ... context is real people in real places trying to do complicated things 07:51:24 ... not surprising that a lot of data is not used in policy making 07:51:42 leimdorfer has joined #egov 07:51:56 ... tend to use single data sources. We don't have data about whether services for homeless people and it's harder to get 07:52:11 ... and elephant in the room is data quality 07:52:18 Jeanne has joined #egov 07:52:22 ... for most people data quality means accuracy but it means more 07:52:35 ... data quality = fitness for use 07:53:42 ... data quality usually involves trade offs between, say, timeliness which may mean sacrificing some quality 07:53:50 ... many dimensions to data quality 07:55:20 ... Describes US census data - very detailed. The gold standard. cf. the metadata about a tweet 07:55:23 ...Link to "Data Quality Assessment" (Pipino, et.al. 2002) http://dwquality.com/DQAssessment.pdf 07:55:51 ... these are prganisations that understand the value of data. The amount of metadata and quality and attention on it should be commensurate with the value we think the data has 07:55:54 A has joined #egov 07:56:05 ... some data quality tools 07:56:41 ... metadata should support users you don't know 07:57:03 ...non-technical data quality tools for providers and users... 07:57:49 sharon: data is an artificial representation of the real world 07:58:27 ..."the more structured the (data), the further it is from the real world" 07:58:35 ... we have talked a little about integrating data sets and we recognise that this is rarely done. That might not be a bad thing as combinations multiple the errors substantially 07:59:41 Topic: Using open data: is it really empowering 07:59:50 panitaliemom has joined #egov 07:59:53 paper -> http://www.w3.org/2012/06/pmod/pmod2012_submission_39.pdf 08:00:36 HelenD: Take Sharon's last slide as a starting point... we're in the tsunami of data 08:00:43 ... but do we get the information we want? 08:00:49 ... not always cost free 08:00:50 stomper has joined #egov 08:01:08 rrsagent, draft minutes 08:01:08 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/20-egov-minutes.html PhilA 08:01:10 ..."right" to data linked to "right" to access to information 08:01:49 HelenD: Parallel to publishing of data has been improvement in rights to access to data 08:02:14 ... ECHR sees access to data as part of freedom of expression 3 years ago, confirmed by UN less than a year ago 08:02:41 ... not sure that there's a necessity to talk about a right to data when we have a human right linked to freedom of expression 08:02:55 ... need data in a proper format 08:02:59 ... machine readable etc. 08:03:14 ... and should be free except perhaps printing costs if you want it that way 08:03:36 ... highlights http://asktheeu.org 08:03:52 ... used by OKFN to get access to entire EU budget in machine-readable format for the first time 08:04:08 ..."New UN General Comment on Freedom of Expression" (2011) 08:04:23 ... other aspect to access to info being a right puts oblgation on govs to publish proactively, not just in response to FOI 08:04:54 ... Sharon made the comment that the data that's available may not be what's needed in policy making 08:05:24 ..."When people outside govt...insist on data, can force policy makers to take into consideration data they may have overlooked" 08:05:28 ... but when people outside government insist on access to data can force policy makers to consider data they haven't considered and then maybe use them - recognise the feedback loops 08:05:52 ... we need relevant feedback loops 08:06:12 frogzilla has joined #egov 08:06:17 HelenD: what do we need to know to hold govs to account? 08:06:30 ... open budget spending data is very important 08:06:51 ... what is the impact on financial crisis on health services is very big 08:07:19 ..."Data for Democracy": budget spending, health services, education data, companies registers, tax delinquency 08:07:30 ... Chris Taggart gives most countries a score of 23/100 on company transparency 08:08:07 ..."Transparency International measures corruption, not transparency..." 08:08:50 A has joined #egov 08:08:51 Katleen: So Helen's spoken about gov obligation to provide what citizens need, not what they want to give 08:09:08 ..."relevant information is not for the government to choose" 08:09:19 Katleen: the Open data community is part of the supply side, not the demand side which is the end users, the public. That's teh goal we need to aim for 08:09:21 ...relevancy based on what citizens demand/need 08:09:41 ... so what is our role? 08:09:53 ... sitting here won't help 08:10:03 ... it's about reaching out to wider communities 08:10:29 ... open data activitists have a responsibility to reach out to local activists 08:10:48 ... ask not what open data can do for us but what it can do for citizens (paraphrase) 08:11:02 ... most peoiple don't know what to do with data files 08:11:28 .. need to find a way to translate what we;re doing to a bigger group 08:11:43 ... we need to realise how we're creating new dependencies 08:12:09 ... the open data community ends up being the gate keepers 08:12:17 Richard: Questions? 08:12:57 ...reference to "School of Data" (Ckan) 08:13:25 Katleen: It takes a lot of work and it's a very good start but we need to do more (scribe may have that wrong) 08:13:39 ...School of Data link 08:13:42 HelenD: Is the data reaching the campaigning groups and civil society folks 08:14:15 ... does civil society know how to get the data to relevant people. Not just raw data but visualisation and so on. Need complemenatry measures 08:14:24 ...dataviz work shouldn't stop on the web site 08:14:29 ... we do a lot of work helping organisations use the data 08:15:05 ...viz work should reach out to "user community" (citizens) to ensure it meets demands and is effective 08:15:30 Tim: What is the message to those on teh supply side - should we stop and consider the capacity to use data before we release it 08:16:10 Federico: Do you think opening budget data is 'not enough' do you think teaching people about the budget could be better than just opening the data set 08:16:15 Great points on having to communicate more about open data ideas and projects. We can applaud the good ones here, but if the developers, citizens, or others don't know about what we are doing to help it doesn't make a difference. 08:16:50 ...Q: transparency in visualization...e,g,, how people know how data has been simplified 08:16:55 Christian: We also need some transparency in how to visualise the data. It gets simplified and so we need to understand that. DataViz closes data 08:17:24 Vagner: Back to Sharon - the more structured the data, the less they represent reality - seems counter to everything we're here to talk about? 08:17:59 ... how can we comibine this data with the mess of reality 08:18:18 ... in Brazil, people aren't concerned with data so how do we make it more interesting and more powerful 08:18:32 Katleen: I agree with pretty much all remarks made... 08:18:48 ... in response to Tim - maybe we should go out and ask people 08:19:17 ... developers get asked, but citizen's groups, environmental activists etc. need to be asked too 08:20:08 ... should government have a role in giving information, not just publishing data. When does the repsonsibility come back to gov? 08:20:42 HelenD: On data accuracy - reality is messy. Don't expect true accurate data from government - ask what data they're using 08:21:27 ... dicussions about whether Ecuador or Argentina is more transparent doesn't invaliudate the data 08:22:05 HelenD: Shows slide ranking availability of data in different countries - Serbia at the top, Austria at the bottom 08:22:09 Info on FOI legislation: 08:22:30 Katleen: We have to do both - keep demanding data sets, and we need to link to the users. 08:22:44 Global RTI Rating Site 08:22:54 ... we need to be very aware of what people want. Portals report that some data sets are never downloaded 08:23:36 ... in Brazil of course I met were the OD community. But you have a long history of participatory budget and those people know about the importance of access to info to engage in the debate. 08:24:05 Q: "where is the stop in open data?" 08:24:48 Yannis: Where is the stop in Open Data - how much info do we really want to publish? is there a barrier somewhere? We're working on the assumption that if everything is open... I;m not happy to have my income statement online but if *everyione's* is, maybe I don't mind so much 08:25:13 ... if we live in a society where everything is open, then is that a viable society? 08:25:38 Girts has joined #egov 08:25:41 HelenD: In theory it's possible to have a transparent dictatorship (ref. Martin's talk) 08:26:11 ... it wouldn't be possible for gos to publish *all* the data so let's start with what people are asking for 08:26:12 can i get the transcript of todays #egov activity? 08:26:39 HelenD: The only way you know you've changed country when you drive around Europe is that the speed limit changes 08:26:48 rrsagent, draft minutes 08:26:48 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/20-egov-minutes.html PhilA 08:26:56 @girts Just hit P... 08:27:18 thanks! 08:27:21 helenD: Several countries put all tax returns online 08:27:46 ow it asks for username/pass today 08:27:49 HelenD: We're saying let's ensure that the data is relevant. The Spanish portal has loads of PDFs of data that was already available 08:27:57 rrsagent, make logs public 08:28:22 and thanks again :) 08:28:24 Re-iterating point that we must ensure data that is published is relevant to society... 08:29:01 Katleen: reports on discussions with privacy people who of course don't share default of open is good 08:29:09 TimDavies_ has joined #egov 08:29:15 ... we can't advocate taxes online in Belgium in the way Norway does 08:29:36 ... so we need to accept that there are differences between countries 08:29:49 Richard: closes session 08:29:54 COFFEE 08:30:04 rrsagent, draft minutes 08:30:04 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/20-egov-minutes.html PhilA 08:34:42 Julianlstar has joined #egov 08:48:51 phila: Reminder that lunch is UPSTAIRS (floor 5) not downstairs 08:49:09 Topic: Apps 2 08:49:16 Irina: In the business of making data accessible and discoverable. 08:49:43 ...2nd part of the battle: using the data 08:50:17 ...this session is about using the data 08:50:38 Subtopic: Open Culture Data 08:50:39 B has joined #egov 08:50:48 Irina: We have three speakers today. First is Lotta on A Dynamic Faceted Browser for Data Cube Statistical Data at http://www.w3.org/2012/06/pmod/pmod2012_submission_12.pdf 08:51:13 scribe: Jeanne 08:51:21 Sure thing. 08:52:01 Lotta: Started experiment in September 2011 on open culture data, 8 datasets in Netherlands and 1 hack-a-thon on cultural events. 08:52:48 Lotta: Recommendations: CC0 (Creative Commons) for metadata; PDM (public domain mark), CC-BY of CC-BY-SA for content; open standards; and open documentation and communication 08:54:31 Lotta: Hack-a-thon was on governmental data gathered people to talk about what we do. Started to build apps on the day of the hack-a-thon. Had one month. 13 apps were made and 8 submissions on cultural data. Gold prize was Vistory based on open images, as well as education prize. 08:55:17 Faces of the Rijksmuseum app based on 100,000 images made available by the Rijkmuseum. Ran image detection software on the content and identified faces. 08:55:36 ...Link to OCD site http://www.opencultuurdata.nl/ 08:56:39 Lotta: Ruks-Quiz was applauded by Rijkmuseum was a quiz based on the content from the museum. Another app made the content available through the conclass browser to see their collections in-house in a new way. Another was Connected Collection that recommends related content from other cultural heritage museums based on your search. 08:56:53 the correct Lotte`s presentation is "Open Culture Data" at http://www.w3.org/2012/06/pmod/pmod2012_submission_22.pdf 08:57:25 Lotta: The winning app connected videos with the collection. 08:58:15 Lotta: Next step was that in January 2012 worked with Images for the Future and Creative Commons Nederland, started master classes in April, competition and hack-a-thon in June and another in October. In January 2013 will be awards. 08:58:52 Lotta: Master class topics: copyright, technology and tools and licensing, benefits and risks of resuse, hackathons and evaluation. 09:00:07 Lotta: 7 new datasets including 140,000 new images from a press company. Future? Release more open culture data sets, gather and share more knowledge and case-based evidence about open culture data, organize networking events, position open culture data in national data catalog, evolve 09:01:39 Lotta: Benefits: public mission, data enrichment, increasing relevance, increasing channels to end users, brand value, specific funding, discoverability, new customers, building experise, spill over effects 09:01:59 Lotta: http://www.opencultuurdata.nl 09:03:49 Question: You recommend CC0 for metadata, we also have ISO open metadata license. 09:03:58 ISA Open Metadata License mentioned 09:04:12 Lotta: We recommend CC0 to be compatible with Europeana and Europe heritage institutions. 09:04:19 @jeanne note it's "ISA" not "ISO..." 09:04:25 Question: Are the resources available via Europeana? 09:04:31 olyerickson: Thanks! 09:04:40 yoshi has joined #egov 09:04:46 Lotta: The intent is to have them accessible. 09:05:12 Subtopic: Linked Open Data in Use 09:05:49 Florin Bauer and Martin Kaltenbock: http://www.w3.org/2012/06/pmod/pmod2012_submission_2.pdf 09:06:10 Florin: Is open data empowering people? Yes--focus on energy for people in developing countries. 09:06:50 Hmm.... France showed as doing a lot of renewable. Wonder if that includes nuclear (of which FR has a lot) 09:07:33 Florin: We need to provide tools that let people understand the data. We do the visualizations and capacity building. We also have to help decision and policy makers to understand why open data and linked open data is so important. It is difficult to explain. 09:08:29 ...link to reegle project 09:09:22 ...Florian: "Martin and I wrote the (Linked Open Data) book..." 09:09:23 Florin: In developing countries talk about the economic benefits the government will have when they release open data. See how datasets have connections with other datasets and organizations. "Linked Open Data: The Essentials" and available at http://www.google.be/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CFAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.semantic-web.at%2FLOD-TheEssentials.pdf&ei=N5PhT4CKIc6M-waq3ZCYAw&usg=AFQjCNFGkIawiz0lY1FCSi2uwHMgEF-gxg&sig2=YSmXh94SJ4jT 09:09:44 Correction: http://blog.semantic-web.at/2012/01/20/linked-open-data-the-essentials-a-quick-start-guide-for-decision-makers/ 09:10:49 Florin: With linked open data we share datasets behind the scene, import data updates automatically, and let other web sites consume the data easily. Should we transform our own platforms and tools, yes! Reegle is the gateway we created. 09:11:43 Florin: 220,000 users per month and 1700 stakeholders worldwide. http://reegle.info Information from DBpedia on the country, UN, Eurostat, World Bank, UK, and our company on events and databases we provide. 09:12:12 Florin: Includes data from US OpenEI portal. Without open data we would never be able to maintain this. This is how open linked data helps us. 09:13:51 Martin: Model behind the country codes shows how we interlink via semantic web technologies. Controlled vocabularies are essential, and studying SKOS vocabularies. We have the European data forum 2 weeks ago in Copenhagen--there is a strong need for standardization, interoperability, cross-catalog searches, and multi-lingual. These can be achieved by linked open vocabularies. 09:14:25 bellows has joined #egov 09:14:55 Martin: Open Eurobot in the future. Some of the linked vocabularies: reegle, Kluwer, Geological survey of Austria... 09:16:13 Martin: API to extract tags from freetext based on term frequency and our thesaurus. Renewable or clean or sustainable energy--send information to API and get all terms extracted from the text. 09:16:52 Florin: Currently working on drafting a study to prove the benefit of open linked data in energy focused on developing countries. Please let me know if you want to contribute to this effort. 09:18:33 Farida Vis: Cultural specificity--when we collect data in Western cultures, we expect people to honestly answer and complete surveys. Where does this expectation come from? We need to think of global data cultures. 09:19:08 Julian Tait:The role of communication in building an open data ecosystem at http://www.w3.org/2012/06/pmod/pmod2012_submission_37.pdf 09:19:57 Julian: Future Everything is a festival around Manchester. How would Manchester have developed if all data was made open? Who would benefit, who would be at risk. 09:21:21 Julian: How can we create an ecology around open data in Manchester. Metropolitan area is 2.6M people, 10 local authorities, complex entity. People cross borders and want to access services anywhere, but administratively cities don't work like that. It also has to be sustainable solutions. 09:22:40 Julian: Best to have a large potential market for services. What is the structure of government in Manchester? Identifying communities by needs and authority. All are set up differently. How would open data benefit you and release or sharing of information benefit you? 09:23:41 Julian: Develop and engage with communities. Why should we do this, people asked. No logic of open data. Who is it for? We created an open data community of users--lots of developers around "OpenData Manchester". 09:24:08 shevski has joined #egov 09:24:50 Julian: Users are drawn from different communities--politicians, developers, artists. We created themed hackdays around grand challenges, "Lovely Data"--health, environment, etc. 09:26:55 Julian: Apps were created--bus timetables, mapping visualizations of transport. People find these things useful. Got lots of proof of concepts with no finished products. From these communities we created the data store for all 10 local authorities. Had to have representation and relevance to the users and the communities. Creation of the data and how it is expressed would be relevant to the needs of the community. Open data ecology--community of open data 09:28:12 authorities. Government needed to get data from other governments--but no real ownership of the ecology. Creation of a mutual space--artists, journalists, activists. Want to sustain it now--authorities asking how they should release data and what people will do with it. Business cases are manifesting. 09:28:18 zelda has joined #egov 09:28:32 A has joined #egov 09:29:51 Julian: Transport is a good case--how they get information to people, 18K real-time displays vs. provide open data for app creation. GM Local Authorities--8.5M pounds potentially saved. Planning Data--invited people to the event to help discover new cases. 09:30:45 Julian: "If we release open data, then we won't need to do this." SWIRRL won the European open data challege is developing businesses based on open data on CIP project and tourism. 09:32:23 PhilA: A few years ago at a W3C event Sir Tim Berners-Lee had a conversation with Gordon Brown and was asked what should happen and he said make your data open. Andrew Stott then got a call to make data.gov.UK. Who else should Tim have dinner with? Are you looking at getting open data about products on shelves? 09:33:16 Julian: No, we haven't focused on that although anyone can make data open. An idea to make food data more open allows transparency to see sourcing of the food. 09:35:27 Michelle: Our project collects cultural information in Taiwan for open data development. We had an open data day and provided awards. Want to create apps like a car GPS service. With government data on GIS data, then can people can get more benefit from the products and corporation can provide data back to the government, too. 09:35:33 Michelle: http://www.w3.org/2012/06/pmod/pmod2012_submission_41.pdf 09:36:03 Irina: How much reuse has happened and what value has happened? 09:36:32 Florin: We have seen a huge increase in the number of users based on taking the data from other portals and mashing it up. Big impact on the front end side. 09:37:07 A has joined #egov 09:37:44 Lotta: Made 2000 videos available on Wikipedia. Current stats from April--people can add these to Wikipedia articles, and viewed in 50 language versions 3M times per month. By contributing open data, we can a big uptake in usage. 09:39:11 Julian: Transportation data in Manchester has made a difference for our citizens. 09:40:19 A has joined #egov 09:40:51 Helen: Many people are trying to get FOIA implemented and adopted, but places like Kenya are not making the connection between open data and transparency. There can be ways the open data community can help the access to information community--why opening data can increase internal government efficiency. 09:41:33 Florin: Transparency is less valued in some cases then economic benefits, but open data can result in both. 09:43:13 TimDavies: We have data for co-production working like in Manchester and open public services--does this sidestep the policy space? Are those compatible or are there tensions there? 09:44:21 Lotta: There's the PSI directive that notes cultural heritage institutions are part of the open data efforts--just metadata or open data? Well, it may be only where you have the rights, which is a small portion of it. What is the business model? What do you mean by open data? 09:45:30 Julian: In Manchester, we can do things together that we could never do before. There are set in stone structures, everyone is trying to do the best, but sometimes they fight the structures they are within. By embracing civil society, it shows how they can become more relevant, efficient, etc. 09:47:10 Yanos: Inspired by slides to simulate a situation in Manchester--but we also need to experiment in new models for politicians. From Greece, we discuss how to do life experiment--to take a small society like 30K in an island and have these questions outside the lab. Convince the community to open everything and to convince the politicians (mayor) to do this? 09:47:43 A has joined #egov 09:48:02 Julian: It depends on the level of concerns because you can't impose the wall of openness. 09:48:15 s/Yanos/Yannis/ 09:48:25 Yannis: Sooner or later we need to do experiments outside the lab. 09:49:21 Richard: New discussions deal with the content held by museums, archives, and libraries under the directive. But content where third parties hold rights, they are not affected. There is a large amount of content in the public domain. 09:49:41 Lotta: What is in the public domain should remain in the public domain. Rights need to be clear. 09:49:54 Martin: PSI directive is good start, but seems to be watered down. 09:51:09 Richard: Not my impression. Working groups discussing it--we expected opposition, but have had less than expected. Final text adopted by Parliament and Council deals with concerns raised by the institutions about the cost. Austrian federal government reacts in this area, but city of Vienna is a torchbearer. 09:52:24 scribe: Boris 09:52:45 Boris: Thanks 09:53:17 John: Introducing the session 09:53:38 ...: Making sense the government data 09:53:51 ...: try to understand, analyze the data itself 09:54:01 ...: relevance on the data 09:54:21 ... : Introducing the speakers 09:54:37 ... : Introducing the talks 09:55:10 ...: First talk from Grece 09:55:31 Michalis: Introducing himself 09:55:46 thschee has joined #egov 09:55:57 ...: an introduction of LOD in Grece and its status 09:56:20 ...: idea to enable participation, promote competition 09:56:30 ...: etc 09:56:41 ...: no apps yet, 2-3 stars 09:57:08 ...: it's important in Grece 09:57:29 ...: Issues, how to demonstrate that LOD has added value? 09:57:40 ...: apps, apps, apps, and more apps 09:57:52 ...: how to push an elephant in Grece 09:57:58 coming late to the log today but comment made by Julian on boundaries resonates with me; hope you could discuss further about it and cross-jurisdiction issues 09:58:01 ...: updates, visualizations 09:58:40 ...: Input: "diavegia" every public institution has to provide data 09:58:40 A has joined #egov 09:58:56 ...:pointing some vocabularies .... 09:59:02 ...:original decision text in pdf 09:59:22 ...: there is a Tax Information System 09:59:25 scribe: boris 09:59:44 ...: checklist, they have an ontology by reusing available vocabs 09:59:55 ...: 2. basic visualizations 10:00:08 ...: register on thedatahub 10:00:13 ...: provide links 10:00:29 ...: links to EU, US, etc 10:00:42 ...: also links to geodata, dbpedia 10:00:51 ...: 5. demos and services 10:01:13 ...: 6. data awareness, organizing hackathons 10:01:30 ...: showing an example of a basic visualization 10:01:56 ...: showing where my money goes data 10:02:14 ...: showing "bubble" visualization about banks 10:02:26 ...: money goes to help bank 10:02:28 s 10:02:47 ...: now showing other visualization example 10:03:19 ...: showing a demo about Litchfield district, where my money goes 10:03:33 ...: extracting information from dbpedia 10:03:57 ...: comparative statistics, about the money in Lichfield and Kalithea 10:04:23 ...: SPARQL QUERY about Kalithea for product and services 10:04:47 ...: they need to do some ontology alignment 10:04:55 ...: they get the results from that query 10:05:17 ...: comparing budget of Litchfield and Kalithea 10:05:38 ...: now build a Greek business repository 10:05:49 ...: it's an ongoing process 10:06:17 ...: they can exchange information in both ways 10:06:27 ...: example Vodafone and Siemens 10:06:44 ...: information about Greek companies 10:07:08 ...: they presented first app on the Greek LOD 10:07:26 ...: try to initiative the benefits of LOD lifecycle 10:07:39 ...: try to get people involved 10:08:01 ...: it was hard to get people involved, data was rich, but not in a good shape 10:08:11 ...: making meaningful data was so, so hard 10:08:34 ...: people involved, newspaper portal 10:08:41 ...: preparing visualization for them 10:08:46 ...: thanks! 10:08:56 John: questions? 10:09:20 ...: quick question: how this is a priority giving the current situation in Greece? 10:09:27 jasper has joined #egov 10:09:50 michail: In Greece, they have a special meeting for defining the values of these data 10:10:00 ...: now they want to show simple cases 10:10:26 ...: apparently nothing is happening because of this .... 10:10:33 ...: no consumption of data so far 10:10:51 ...: they will inform what happens 10:11:07 someone: it is possible to do the same at EU level 10:11:09 ? 10:11:23 Michail: that's the goal 10:12:03 ...: there's a eu directive ... it's a hidden business information .... others can use the data to comepite 10:12:10 ...: there is not technical barrier 10:12:48 Uldis: introducing his presentation "Exploring the networks in open data" 10:13:03 ...: he is coming from University of Latvia 10:13:27 ...: his co-author, Valdis is a social network analyst 10:13:51 ...: network visualization and analysis is useful, showing its benefits 10:14:03 ...: there are several types of networks 10:14:27 ...: also a open data hackathon in Riga 10:14:52 ...: they need the data first, the pre-process the data, then visualize data 10:15:02 ...: we need data to be open 10:15:10 ...: it's a problem in Latvia 10:15:18 ...: no so much open documents 10:15:31 ...: document in html form from the parlamient 10:15:50 ...: still they got the information .... political parties, etc 10:16:04 ...: of course you can publish in a newspaper 10:16:14 ...: next step is to pre-process the data 10:16:28 ...: no much cleaning was needed 10:16:44 ...: output was information about objects and relations about those objects 10:16:57 s/about/among 10:17:15 ...: next, defining graph connections 10:17:27 ...: they also need to filter the data 10:17:59 ...: for example opinion differences ... what to filter out ... filter out trivial decisions 10:18:45 ...: for visualization they define legends for each one of the parties 10:19:01 ...: talking about the parties 10:19:34 ...: about of the level of tolerance, how to consider a connection 10:20:08 ...: who always agree or disagree ... we can see that some parties have a strong voting discipline 10:20:40 ...: show another visualization taking into account the 35% disagree 10:21:00 ...: next, to refine the visualization 10:21:17 ...: define the right cut-off values .... 10:21:44 ...: what domain experts think about that? ... their opinion it's important to improve visualizations 10:21:56 s/it's/is 10:22:23 ...: documents and visualizations are useful for this task 10:22:47 ...: showing another example of middle values, opposites parties are voting the same 10:23:13 ...: we can identify some patterns on the visualizations 10:23:32 ...: new diagram with more number of connections 10:23:58 ...: there are connections between opposites parties 10:24:04 ...: what can we do next? 10:24:10 ...: understand the visualization 10:24:27 ...: one expert from former members of the parliament 10:25:19 ...: improve visualizations, create multiple multiple visualizations 10:25:37 ...: this involves some new things to do ... 10:25:48 ...: also we can bring more data ... 10:26:01 ...: from outside of the graph 10:26:12 ...: click on a edge and include additional information 10:26:27 ...: connect to LOD data 10:26:34 ...: more examples 10:26:40 ...: donations of political parties 10:26:46 s/of/to 10:27:40 ...: another use case showing company communication patterns, it has clusters of nodes, clusters are based on where people live 10:28:11 ...: the connectors over the company offices 10:28:24 ...: concluding: we need more open data 10:28:54 ...: discovering patterns, help to make sense, what is the final purpose of the visualization 10:29:12 ...: interested in to collaboration to other groups 10:29:25 ...: more contact information 10:29:45 ...: they have a smart network analyzer tool 10:30:07 ...: now he's showing the tool ... providing a particular visualization 10:30:43 ...: showing bridging/disconnecting graphs from opposite parties 10:30:53 John: questions? 10:31:50 someone: taking data from website, and apply some conversions .... doing more scrapping help with no modification of the data? .... 10:32:08 s/someone/Girts/ 10:32:23 ...: the nice graphs, but they can be used for opposite parties 10:32:35 As a reminder, if you are interested in the W3C eGovernment Interest group, you can see the group at http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/Main_Page To join go to http://www.w3.org/egov/IG/participation It's a great place to continue these discussions. 10:32:38 Uldis: scrapping is open source 10:32:53 ...: 10:33:10 Daniel: presenting himself 10:33:40 ...: how many of you know w3c? 10:33:59 ...: the same question in other conference, only 3 hands 10:34:27 ...: how Russia see the rest of the world, and how us see Russia... in general 10:34:37 ...: convincing Russian people was hard 10:34:50 ...: presenting the talk outline 10:35:13 ...: the project is funding by the ministry of education 10:35:39 ...: partners Leipzig University, some companies from Russia, etc 10:35:49 ...: 600 man days - 4 stages 10:35:56 ...: no code so far 10:36:14 ...: they got some ontologies, math ontology, and nano ontology 10:36:45 ...: they want to build a framework that converts structure data and text into LOD 10:36:55 ...: also make linkable at the end 10:37:23 ...: most of the work is doing manually 10:37:58 ...: research challenges, rdb2rdf, text2rdf (similar to poolparty) 10:38:27 ...: creating Identifiers, and reusing these identifiers 10:38:39 ...: they are not using any other triplestore 10:38:53 ...: Russians are building their own triplestore 10:38:58 ...: it will be ready soon 10:39:24 ...: Leipzig is helping them in some tasks 10:39:33 ...: some prototype examples 10:39:53 ...: data are accessible via web services 10:40:08 ...: they have to improve the visualizations 10:40:19 ...: stakeholders have different needs 10:40:37 ...: now showing a simple browser 10:40:47 ...: Nano Browsing 10:40:57 ...: on the left side there's the ontologies 10:41:15 ...: the prototype is based on media wiki 10:41:37 ...: the second part is for identifying Experts on the Nano field 10:41:53 ...: they extract the name of the person ... 10:42:17 ...: another example: who and where 10:42:30 ...: visualization of the links 10:42:40 ...: among places and people 10:42:44 ...: also in a map 10:42:50 ...: another example for decision making 10:43:09 ...: analyzing lod dataset, who writes about something 10:43:39 ...: should I invest into a research project? (example of question) 10:43:57 ...: concluding: to attract more Russian people 10:44:06 ...: from OD -> LOD 10:44:43 ...: try to stablish work between Russian and UK on the upcoming event next week 10:45:12 ...: last but not least, try to put an stack all the "know-how" 10:45:32 ...: at the bottom "Ryde the Wave" from the W3C 10:45:52 ...: describing the interaction with the government 10:46:11 ...: it will finish by july next year 10:46:26 ...: finally, what the economic benefits ? 10:47:12 John: q? 10:47:30 someone: there is a LOD stack for free from LOD2 10:47:37 ...: you can use it 10:48:00 Daniel: thanks!, but Russian people want to do it everything themselvs 10:48:11 s/themselvs/themselvs/ 10:48:26 someone: possibility to collaborate with Russian project? 10:48:33 Daniel: not yet 10:48:44 John: presenting Yannis 10:48:54 Yannis: introducing himself 10:49:11 ...: talking about LOD2 10:49:31 ...: but Engage is a new project, not under FP7, it's supposed to be an infrastructure .... 10:49:56 ...: it's about open data, CKAN, LOD2 platform, but there is difference is that the domain is Science 10:50:04 ...: science is different 10:50:33 ...: they are developing the version of the platform by July 10:50:48 ...: they need more metadata, semantics, vocabularies 10:51:13 ...: for scientists datasets are different ... 10:51:23 ...: related to what do we need to prove 10:51:42 ...: some of the partners are microsoft, ibm, ... 10:52:06 ...: now they are dealing with experts 10:52:30 ...: they want to make it as open as possible, also the code, technologies 10:52:33 ...: thanks 10:53:07 boris: regarding the vocabularies you need - you're not starting from scratch - which ones are you using? 10:54:54 Yannis: egov vocabs are out there, but in science is different .... evolving is an issue 10:55:03 ...: we are still searching more vocabs 10:55:18 someone: regarding the infrastructure 10:55:27 ...: and vocabs is the beginning 10:55:55 Yannis: yes, there will be a system 10:56:37 ...: engage is an attempt on this unit (eu one) ... 10:57:33 ...: the question is not comparing to others like data.gov.uk, the question is if we can help sciensts 10:57:56 someone: not so much of infrastructure, it's about data accesible 10:58:10 Yannis: the whole thing is there 10:58:21 John: please put the links on the chat 10:58:30 ...: brilliant set of slides 10:59:28 John: to Daniel ..... future steps, expand more horizontally ... cover more domains, what are your next steps? 11:00:19 Daniel: several approaches, use W3C as evangelist, Russian 2020, EU it's a bit slow, it takes some time ... Russian has already money for this .... 11:00:33 ...: to convert to LOD and not pdf 11:00:50 ...: ministry of financies is the next player 11:01:18 ...: an initiative in Russian, kind of Sillicon Valley in Russian, smart city 2014 11:01:31 someone: To Daniel 11:01:48 ...: politics about the stuff in Russian, not great reputation in transparency 11:02:08 Daniel: anyone from Russian, yes one 11:02:47 ....: I know what you mean .... probably they misunderstand the five star scheme 11:03:07 ...: they don't have any problem with that 11:03:24 someone: feeling of LOD as static data 11:03:36 ...: services implies open data feeds 11:03:47 ...: it is your aim to provide APIs? 11:04:01 ...: question was for yannis 11:04:14 Yannis: the idea is not to store, provide and give data feeds 11:04:33 ...: 2012 is the last year when LOD is static data, 11:04:58 ...: makes no sense not to have updating mechanisms 11:05:30 ...: explaining the issues of scientific data 11:05:43 ...: everything should be online 11:05:49 ...: also the linking 11:06:09 someone: yesterday was pointing out as well, we need big infrastructure 11:06:26 ...: his company is working on that in Netherlands 11:06:36 ...: also geo layers 11:06:48 ...: statistical data 11:07:13 Yannis: yes, in our Project we have microsoft, ibm, .... 11:07:40 ...: being infrastructure is hard ... the Greek node can give a lot of infrastructure ... 11:08:09 John: lunch! 11:08:44 Phil: Welcome Chris Tagger 11:09:52 John: close session 11:09:53 rrsagent, draft minutes 11:09:53 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/20-egov-minutes.html boris 11:58:15 AndreaP has joined #egov 12:09:36 ot has joined #egov 12:12:28 Afternoon session 12:12:41 Topic: Open Data Business Models 12:12:46 scribe: PhilA 12:13:25 wilma has joined #egov 12:13:45 chair for this session is Vassilios Peristeras from the ISA Programme/DG DIGIT 12:14:12 shevski has joined #egov 12:14:21 Business Models for PSI Re-Use: A Multidimensional Framework, Michele Osella, Istituto Superiore Mario Boella 12:14:55 paper -> http://www.w3.org/2012/06/pmod/pmod2012_submission_16.pdf 12:15:08 Michele: introduces himself 12:15:28 ... showing results of a survey 12:15:30 Vagner_br has joined #egov 12:15:53 ... focussing on conceptual model 12:16:33 olyerickson has joined #eGov 12:16:49 ... talks around the slide... 12:18:22 Michele: elaborates on prominent gaps in the literature slide 12:18:40 ... focussed on the economics of downstream from the data 12:18:53 ... shows different perspectives of PSI re-use 12:20:09 ... Research Questions (slide) 12:21:05 ... PSI isn't a source of competitive advantage... so what is? 12:21:19 ... the Framework 'canvas view' 12:22:28 JeanneHolm has joined #egov 12:23:00 ... PSI is bundled within services that are offered to customers - so the service is the product that is sold 12:23:26 ... pyramid view (slide) 12:23:41 ...Link: European Public Sector Information Platform 12:24:02 Michele: each layer in the triangle depends on the one below's existence 12:24:49 Michele: then dashboard view (slide) 12:26:20 ... templates adopted for each check box. Uses sophisticated business logic 12:26:37 ... conclusive remarks (slide) 12:28:24 ... we believe the frameowrk offers a promising stepping stone for research into commercial exploitation of PSI 12:28:51 schegi has joined #egov 12:28:52 ... proposal to use it to analyse the many hundreds of apps created in hackathons for public data 12:29:28 ... we plan to use the framework ourselves to evaluate social value of PSI within smart cities 12:30:10 ... linked to more material etc. 12:30:52 AndrewL: Do you have examples of the kind of business that can set up using this? 12:31:56 Michele: Shows slide from extended talk 12:32:08 .. identifies 8 archetypal business models 12:33:00 ... shows example of an 'open source like' business model (and refers to it as poss applying to Open Corporates) 12:34:06 Topic: Open Corporates, Chris Taggart 12:35:33 ...Another recent OpenCorporates preso by Chris is here 12:35:39 Chris: Setting up a company is like giving birth - you wonder why you did it but later realise that it was worth it 12:35:59 ... almost everyone works for a company, buys stuff from them etc. 12:36:09 ...much of the "corporate world" we live is hidden from us 12:36:53 ... businesses have changed completely in terms of the way the are set up and operate 12:37:03 ...normal people can't see the interconnections of modern corporates 12:37:03 ...the corporate world is increasingly complex 12:37:05 TimDavies has joined #egov 12:37:15 ... some corporations comrpise thousands of legal entities 12:37:32 ...new complexities, such as instant semi-automatic company generation 12:37:59 ... companies can be formed for a specific purpose. They can be set up for a short time. Expect to see them existing for a matter of weeks or even hours in near future 12:38:06 ...opacity introduced by "secrecy jurisdictions" 12:38:10 ... very complex networks, come circular 12:38:36 ...systematic problems we see today are in part due to inability to understand it all 12:39:25 ...ref to "World Bank Puppet Masters" report 12:39:27 ... competitors want to pay less tax, lower wages etc. 12:39:46 ... world bank report highlights legal entities used to launder money 12:40:09 ... companies are artificial 12:40:43 ...Link: WB Puppet Masters report 12:40:46 ... did a survey and published today for tomorrow's DAA. Could anyone do a search and see if a company existed? 12:41:03 JeanneHolm has joined #egov 12:41:10 ... was there a licence on the data? Can you get hte info as data or through an API for free? Info on directors? 12:41:18 ...report being released today, how open is company data in EU 12:41:18 The Puppetmasters report is very interesting: https://openknowledge.worldbank.org/handle/10986/2363 12:41:38 ... no one got 100%. UK and Norway did well 12:42:05 ... in Spain, Austria, Greece, Romania etc. you cannot get any info 12:42:29 ... so this info isn't available to citizens, journalists etc. 12:42:50 ...The Real Problem: Have an entry for every single legal entity in the world 12:42:56 ... one problem was we needed to have a list of every legal entity in the world 12:43:16 ... legal entities matter as they are the things that have liability 12:43:23 ..."real data, running code..." 12:43:45 ...O(43M) companies listed currently 12:43:46 cf. IETF slogan - rough consensus, running code 12:44:19 Chris Open Corporates data is all available under an open licence. Increasingly cooperating with company registers directly 12:44:33 ... New Zealand, Norway etc. 12:44:56 ... working with World Bank, W3C, EC, Financial Stability Board/financial community 12:45:23 ... after 12 months' operation, getting most data by screen scraping data we get invited to FSB etc. 12:45:41 ... breathing same air as GS1, ISO etc. 12:45:41 ...has obtained most of their data to-date via scraping, but are being invited to consult with financial boards etc now 12:45:56 ...most data has come from the community 12:46:02 ... most of the data came from the open community, e.g. using scraper wiki 12:46:15 ... getting offers of help from all around the world 12:46:23 ... paid for on projected income 12:46:32 ... for entity matching, data cleansing 12:46:55 ...huge # of requests for API every day 12:47:03 ...dual license model 12:47:08 ... you can use our API for free but it might be cheaper to pay us to do it 12:48:00 ... you can use the data but under share alike. So folk like Dunn & Bradsteet who don't want to share their data aren't going to do this 12:48:11 ...not *trying* to get customers, but are getting some because share-alike is poison pill to some users 12:48:15 ... some customers that want the data without the share alike 12:48:38 ... adding more data, enriching everything 12:49:16 Antonis: I'm Antonis Ramfos from Intrasoft 12:49:27 ... IT company does most of its wor for public sector 12:49:29 Topic: IntraSoft 12:49:46 ... interest for us is the future possibilities 12:50:11 ... we see that public sector opens its data increasingly 12:50:43 ... we have to realign our business model 12:51:01 ... you may have heard of Cordis which we've been running for 10 years. We've done major development on that for the future 12:51:25 ... will become a content provider. We have to use the open data to continue to run the service 12:51:32 ... the future is here 12:51:49 ... whole public service provision is changing and we need to think of new business models 12:52:02 Topic: Jens Steensma 12:52:40 Jens: I have a short talk yesterday about the Dutch version of FixMyStreet which we found about after we'd begin work on our project. 12:52:51 ... do we make money? not yet 12:53:05 ... we deliver services to the mobile government workforce 12:53:47 ... how do we make money on bad data? 12:54:10 ... a bit like OC. We do open data collection and create data. We can do it better than most government depts 12:54:21 ... it helps that we know how governments work 12:54:29 ... we offer APIS with 2 way communication 12:54:41 ... and we can charge annual fee for premium services 12:54:50 ... like guarantees on up time etc. 12:55:02 ... 2 new cities signed up today :-) 12:55:34 ... Sharon's cartoon this morning was interesting: info $1, info you need $500 12:56:00 ... we give the cheap data away and charge for the expensive 12:57:04 ... costs of making decisions is very high. We can help to reduce that 12:57:25 Topic: David Mitton, Listpoint 12:58:10 David: 10 years ago, 2 10 year old girls were murdered in the UK. Single reason perpetrator wasn't spotted earlier was lack of interoperable data 12:58:24 PhilA: (Google Soham murders) 12:58:52 David: Person I works with all data standards rather than making a choice 12:59:22 ... Police only allowed to spend money on Policing. So wanted the products to be available to governments and everyone else 12:59:31 ... in terms of business model. very simple 12:59:55 ... we work with suppliers at the beginning of a procurement process 13:00:09 ... lowers the cost because you don't have agree on a standard before you start 13:00:19 ... ongoing data maintenance is easier 13:00:30 ... work with suppliers to lower the cost of supply 13:00:47 ..."Makes money by saving money..." 13:02:15 Subtopic: Discussion of Business Models for Public Sector Open Data 13:03:35 Chris: Companies like mine will never be the sort of size that generates the sort of size of those legal entities 13:04:00 ...ChrisT: Trying to srink the business intelligence market down to 1/100th its size 13:04:19 ...every person's life is effected by this 13:04:45 ... competitive info is a significant barrier to entry for many new businesses 13:04:45 ...access to competitor information is a barrier to innovation 13:05:12 ... the extra money comes from the ability to do things more quickly nad easily 13:05:50 Q+ 13:05:50 Vassilios: Many public admins don't like the cost involved and the fact that others generate the profits 13:06:43 Gov't needs to guarantee that govt LOD will be sustained 13:06:55 Michalis: We keep asking for applications. Governments are part of this. They need to be involved. Which kinds of data are going to be open and maintained in order to stimulate ecomonmic activity 13:07:25 ... should define minimum level of support 13:07:31 olyerickson: +1 to Micahlis 13:08:20 Very important to be sure that companies can trust that the government data they build a business on will be available, accessible, and in a usable format. This can be the biggest barrier to true innovation and economic benefits. 13:08:20 olyerickson: What role should govs play in fostering the ecosystem. Healthy Human Services has for several years hosted an event that brings together people from gov and private sector to foster an ecosystem 13:08:57 ... size of the event is huge now. But a numnber of challenges where gov has offered prizes in 10K - 50K for specific challenges for apps based on the data 13:09:14 Some challenges are up to $1,000,000 for particularly complex issues. 13:09:26 See more at http://www.challenge.gov 13:09:53 olyerickson: So my question is - is the EU doing anything similar - giving prizes etc. 13:10:13 Vassilios: I don't think there's an EU answer, but there might be from member states 13:10:20 ... building a community catalogue 13:10:58 PhilA: Thanks for making sense of my utterances ;) 13:11:17 scribe: cgueret 13:11:19 Topic: Lightning Talks on Open Data Ecosystem 13:11:55 Rethinking Kelly and Etling's Map of the Iranian Blogosphere Gwyneth Sutherlin, University of Bradford 13:12:20 ICT for conflict resolution 13:12:56 ... people seems to start with false assumption that data is diffused as neutral thing, without context 13:13:13 ... limitations of open data for IR policy? 13:13:22 See Gwyneth's paper at http://www.w3.org/2012/06/pmod/pmod2012_submission_31.pdf 13:13:36 how can culture be incorporated? 13:14:10 ... physics model of iranian blogosphere 13:14:22 ... show clusters in the network 13:14:39 ... poetry / mixed / secular / twelver / ... 13:14:47 ... => not useful for policy makers 13:14:59 ... what is lost? 13:15:24 ... social media are always used in the same way 13:15:50 ... online behaviour are supposed to give insight on culture 13:16:08 ... need to determine what makes this online space unique 13:16:51 slides of the "Exploring the Networks in Open Public Data" talk: http://www.slideshare.net/CaptSolo/exploring-the-networks-in-open-public-data-13391338 13:16:53 ... in Iran, need to take in account the source of the information people put online (added layer) 13:17:07 ... need to do a semantic filter first, prior to any visualisation 13:17:29 ... enable to distinguish in the information comes, from example, from a diaspora or from elsewhere 13:18:02 ... strategies around surroinding online personas 13:18:36 ... maybe a way to explain poetry: use it to do metaphoras and escape persecusion off-line 13:20:51 Q: english tweeter user use a lot of sentiments to say things without saying them 13:20:53 A has joined #egov 13:21:08 A: research has been done on offline content, need to extend it to online content now 13:21:31 The Open Data Workflow: Towards an Open Data Middleware Stefan Scheglmann, Institute for Web Science and Technologies (WeST), University of Koblenz-Landau 13:22:18 WeST associated to gesis (like franhauferh) 13:22:45 developed LISA (local information search and aggregation) for first open data contest in Germany 13:23:04 ... showing data about Munich 13:23:20 ... heatmap visualisation of neighbourhood 13:23:37 ... use point of interests extracted from OSM and other data sets 13:23:57 ... took a week for two persons to realise 13:24:31 ...LISA Munich Edition 13:24:34 ... won the first prize 13:24:47 http://lisa.west.uni-koblenz.de/?lang=en for general information about LISA 13:24:58 ... got attraction from business that want to generate sponsor based revenues 13:25:52 C has joined #egov 13:26:00 ... want open data workflow 13:26:17 ... explore / choose / import / normalize / present 13:27:17 ... use things like Yahoo Pipe 13:27:30 ... this and other services can ensure some parts of the chain 13:28:00 ... there is a need to define a middleware based on different services 13:28:14 ... will be used by policy makers and citizen 13:28:24 ... facilitate data consumption 13:28:34 ... Open doesn't imply accessible 13:28:53 ... people that are targeted are not always able to use the data they receive 13:29:13 ... such a middleware will fix that and allows new services to be easily plugged in 13:29:29 ... there are different LISA for different cities 13:29:51 Q: wrt middelware, is this just ideas or do you have something already? 13:30:14 A: partially done for LISA, now thinking of making this more robust and figure out more building blocks 13:30:40 ... currently more of a strategic discussion 13:31:21 Q: open news project could use that kind of middleware 13:31:38 A: that's exactly the goal, bring non technician to use open data 13:32:01 FaridaVis has joined #egov 13:33:12 A means to embrace and map together data standards David Mitton, Listpoint 13:34:22 code list management service 13:34:34 ... IATI standard 13:34:43 ... make aid spending easier to access 13:35:12 ... want to re-use existing information and no re-create code lists 13:35:38 ... challenges: mapping / delegation / versioning / changes 13:36:22 ... need to be able to access and rely on country codes (cf ISO) 13:36:48 ... need to be able to inform data consumers when the data is updated 13:36:58 see http://www.aidtransparency.net/ 13:37:11 and http://iatiexplorer.org/index.php 13:38:06 ... did mapping for IATI sector codes 13:38:35 ... people create new standards every single day 13:38:43 ... mappings had to be done manually 13:38:47 ... 13:38:59 ... found errors in conding conventions too 13:39:07 s/conding/coding 13:39:24 ... www.listpoint.co.uk 13:39:49 ... created new code lists there 13:40:12 ... community need to have faith in the data they are looking at 13:40:21 ... developers can extract the mapping layer in XML 13:40:52 ... whenever there is a change in code, all the consumers of the data are alerted 13:41:04 ... it's an open platform 13:41:06 peeves has joined #egov 13:41:14 ... 4000 code lists so far 13:42:13 Additional flash lightning by Uldis Bojārs 13:42:17 Europeana 13:42:33 (shows europeana.eu site) 13:43:00 there was Hack4Europe event 13:43:20 ... created europe.in to explore europeana content 13:43:56 (shows example with looking for "Da Vinci") 13:44:34 ... list of items related to Da Vinci, can click for more informations 13:44:41 MacTed has joined #egov 13:46:20 Topic: Coffee 13:46:48 A has joined #egov 13:47:03 Topic: Report from the SEMIC Interoperability Conference 13:48:15 links from the Europeana visual expl #pmod lightning talk: http://europ.in/about - http://europ.in/search?q=da%20Vinci http://blog.europeana.eu/2012/06/hack4europe-2012-preview-of-prototypes/ + europeana page 13:48:50 individual image "pages": http://www.europeana.eu/portal/record/02302/0457E5166CB382AB844BCAB45A7A84AB3FF648D4.html 13:49:25 - some html5 history magic involved to dynamically generate item pages 13:49:32 - feedback welcome 13:49:43 - and let us know of interesting search keywords you find 14:05:52 schegi has joined #egov 14:06:50 Topic: Report on Semic conference 14:07:05 stijn: I'm Stijn Goodertier from PwC 14:07:52 stijn: Keynotes from Antony Huang from NIEM and Jeanne Holm 14:08:13 stijn: talks on need for code lisst being open and open data middleware 14:08:19 ... need to make data open and accessibkle 14:08:54 ... invitation to join initiatives on Joinup and the ISA Programme 14:09:25 ... we can talk more about it in the networking event afterwards 14:09:51 olyerickson has joined #eGov 14:09:54 Topic: Session on Tools 14:10:17 Session chaired by Luigi Reggi 14:10:31 Subtopic: Dynamic Faceted Browser for Data Cube 14:10:39 scribe: olyerickson 14:11:20 ..Speaker: Nikolaos Loutas (DERI) 14:11:33 A has joined #egov 14:12:07 ...statistics data important 14:12:33 ...most previously published as excel(csv) but increasingly RDF 14:12:53 ...When pub'd in RDF, usually Data Cube Vocabulary 14:13:07 ...concepts and attributes for describing data 14:13:26 ...measure, attributes of data, dimension 14:13:34 ..W3C recommendation 14:13:49 ...Example: Ireland data in Data Cube 14:14:26 ...average policy maker can't write SPARQL query ;) 14:14:57 ...to help: faceted browser over DataCube data 14:15:09 ...Working on the UI 14:15:27 ...Figure: Overview of DataCube Viewer Architecture 14:16:01 ...powered by sparql endpoint (rather than federated query) 14:16:49 ...features: no pre-processing, works against any RDF but must be DataCube vocab, pulls extra info via URIs, data can be exported 14:16:52 shevski has joined #egov 14:17:21 ...contact the authors: Fadi, Gofran or Nikos... 14:17:29 https://github.com/fadmaa/RDF-faceted-browser 14:17:29 ... 14:19:18 A has joined #egov 14:21:39 ..Q: Statistical data is multi-dimensional...there is prior art to working with this...could this be supported? 14:23:04 ...Q: What about MathML? Have they thought about this 14:23:08 ...A: No...why/ 14:26:10 ...Q; Several nerdish questions about scalability, portability to other vocabs, etc 14:26:52 subtopic: Faceted Browser for Geospatial Datasets 14:27:16 ...speaker: Boris Villazon-Terrazas 14:27:48 ...We have the data, now need to deliver relevant applications "for my mother, brother, etc" 14:27:58 ...NLP, rich client, etc 14:28:20 ...Within LOC Cloud, significant portion with geospatial data 14:29:04 ...Developed a tool for exploring/visualizing RDf datasets enhanced with geospatial info 14:29:11 ... 14:29:26 ...What do we mean by geospatial resource 14:29:46 ...use dpbedia geo:lat geo:long model 14:30:05 ...but also, geoLinkedData, NeoGeo models 14:30:54 ...Model complicated models possible...eg rivers (lineString) etc 14:31:28 ...Recall yesterday, many apps based on Google Maps; they do too ;) 14:31:57 ... Facets on upper left, overlay options lower left 14:32:21 ...OpenStreetMaps implemented now too; dynamic switching between the tw 14:32:30 ...OpenLayers API supported 14:32:51 ...Catalogue Service Web 14:33:35 ...Any other Inspire-based services are supported 14:34:09 ...Complex geometries: example, lake equivalents 14:34:41 ...allowing user input of corrections ("editions") 14:35:21 ...(user clicks on "edition" link, inputs changes, editors can review) 14:35:39 ...uses GeoLinkedData 14:36:05 ...Partner with GIN (Geo Inst of spain) 14:36:10 http://geo.linkeddata.es 14:37:03 ...Possible to integrate statistical data from Statistical Office of Spain 14:38:09 RDF data cube is on the standards track, not there yet though (but it will be) 14:38:55 ...Meteorological Data via AEMET 14:39:06 ...example: weather stations 14:39:34 ...click on weather station, see the weather data... 14:39:50 ...see a graph of the data 14:40:25 ...modeling sta in sensor network vocab 14:40:42 14:41:02 bhyland has joined #egov 14:41:30 Subtopic: Research Challenge on Visualization (Francesco Mureddu) 14:41:45 yannisc has joined #egov 14:44:23 ...visual analytics for policy-making 14:44:36 ..."challenges in governance" 14:45:00 ...dig into data to extrapolate patterns and models for more evidence-based policy debate 14:45:12 ...need people to be more engaged in policy making 14:45:35 ...take on complex, unpredictable patterns and make sensible 14:46:06 ...Possible solutions: economics, health data, demographics, legal arguments 14:47:13 ...also: discussion arguments, geovisualization, security and national defense 14:47:44 ...corporate and military angles 14:48:06 ..."Inspiring Cases" 14:48:09 ...GapMinder 14:48:23 ...US Labor Force Visualization 14:48:29 ...State Cancer Profiles 14:48:39 ...Instant Atlas 14:49:28 ...Link: stata cancer Profiles 14:50:20 ...Link: Labor Force Visualizer 14:50:55 ...Link: GapMinder 14:52:14 Link: InstantAtlas 14:52:25 ..."Corwall is quite boring..." 14:52:36 s/Corwall/Cornwall/ 14:52:39 Sorry but I have to say, Cornwall is not boring. It's beautiful and a favourite place for holidays!# 14:53:01 Zakim, mute PhilA ;) 14:53:11 ...Key Challenges: 14:53:26 ...User acceptability: still not intuitive 14:53:40 ...dataviz still largely demand-driven 14:54:00 ...better integration between tools/packages 14:54:19 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:54:19 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/20-egov-minutes.html PhilA 14:54:29 ...Comments about GoogleViz 14:55:19 ...see also GeoDaCenter --- special prohject to enhance criminal justice 14:56:24 olyerickson: The idea of data-enhanced policy making is incredibly optimistic 14:57:01 ... as a US alien... is there a trend within the EU for data-enhanced policy making? 14:57:14 Francesco: We'd liek to create the trend by the Crossover project 14:58:03 DavidO: One of the flagship initiatives of the EC - Future ICT - is a kind of real world data simulator applying particularly to policy making. Simulation, aggregation etc. Big research project on this issue 14:58:19 Gianluca: Crossover is just one project funded by the EC 14:58:36 ... this is a support action to build a community and define a roadmap. There are bigger projects 14:58:50 ... based on this assumption that evidence-based policy making is possible 14:59:03 ... a new call for proposals is coming soon 14:59:28 ... we're awaiting the results of some project to see if there is a trend 15:00:18 Topic: Summary from David Osimo 15:00:42 DavidO: We had a fear that participants that wouldn't understand what we meant by OD for Policy Modelling 15:00:48 ... obviously unfounded 15:01:32 ... we have seen a number of key tools being discussed, these are the ones being used in policy making 15:01:36 ... so it's happening 15:01:54 ... we had an extremely useful practitioners' panel yesterday 15:02:03 ... also very important for us is the global nature of the community 15:02:33 ... in terms of the roadmap we have had a lot fo contributions focussed on the challenges that OD needs to address to improve policies 15:02:51 ... some challenges lie in accessibility nad usability. Similar to digital divide debate 15:03:05 ... not just hardware but skills/media literacy too 15:03:37 ... these are some of the key issues we have got from this. We'll work on this through the commentable document on the crossover site 15:03:53 ... do you agree with the research challenges - and do you work on this 15:04:08 .. The unstructured part is the LinkedIn group for discussion of issues 15:04:31 ... also we have a collaborative bookmarking method on diigo.com 15:05:01 Topic: PhilA Summary 15:05:11 ... Humbled by level on contribution 15:05:25 ... special thanks to scribes 15:05:52 ...notes available online soon 15:06:00 ...get your slides to PhilA! 15:06:08 ...Learned much 15:06:29 ...jeanneHolm has gotten many ideas to pick up in W3C eGov IG 15:06:38 ...Note also W3C GLD WG 15:06:54 ...Finishing early (remarkable) 15:07:10 ...Heading over to Sofitel shortly 15:07:40 ...the way to get attention of policy makers is free alcohol 15:07:51 ...bar opens at 6p (53 mins) 15:07:52 thanks for a great event! 15:08:20 excellent, ty! 15:08:35 Follow-up link: FuturICT Project http://futurict.eu 15:08:40 great work scribing, olyerickson and everyone else! 15:14:23 zakim, i'm outta here... 15:14:25 olyerickson has left #eGov 15:19:39 rrsagent, generate minutes 15:19:39 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/20-egov-minutes.html PhilA 15:31:12 PhilA has left #egov